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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Nov 1932

Vol. 44 No. 8

Vote No. 56—Industry and Commerce.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £32,904 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1933, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála, maraon le Coiste Comhairlitheach na Rátaí, agus Ildeontaisí i gCabhair.

That a sum not exceeding £32,904 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1933, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including the Rates Advisory Committee and Sundry Grants-in-Aid.

As Deputies who have studied the Estimate will know, there is nothing unusual appearing on the face of it. Salaries and wages show a reduction of £5,091 due almost entirely to a reduction in the staff of the Statistics Branch. Travelling expenses show a small reduction and incidental expenses a small increase. One of the other items that deserves comment is sub-head H which shows an increase of £1,458. That is a grant-in-aid to the expenses of the International Labour Organisation and the necessity for the increase there arises out of the depreciation of the currency. The Official Handbook for Saorstát Eireann published last year was an unusual item, and the sub-head shows a reduction of £3,540. There are also three other sub-heads for which no provision has been made this year, the total decrease for the year being £8,641. I do not know if it is intended to discuss this Estimate or if it is necessary for me to make any further statement. I did not receive any intimation from any section of the House that it was desired to raise any particular question on the Estimate, but, if any questions are raised, or if there is a desire on the part of any Deputy to discuss a particular matter, I am quite prepared to do so.

Is the Minister in a position at the moment to make any statement on what his proposals are with regard to the railways, or would he prefer that matter to be deferred to a later date? It might come up on the Transport Bill, but if he were in a position to discuss the matter, this would probably be the most appropriate Vote.

It will arise on the next Vote.

If it could be raised on this Vote, there could be a wider discussion on this Vote rather than on the next Vote. I do not know, however, whether the Minister is in a position to deal with it.

The intention is, as has been announced, to introduce certain legislation in the present session, and I think it would be undesirable to make any statement concerning the Government's policy in anticipation of the introduction of that legislation.

When does the Minister purpose bringing in the legislation?

It will be brought in as early as possible. I could not fix a definite date because that depends on factors which I cannot control, but it is definitely intended, unless some unforeseen difficulty arises, to have it introduced in the present session.

I think the Minister must recognise that it is a very urgent problem. The position of the railways is becoming really serious and I do not know that it is one that admits of much delay.

I recognise that, of course.

I suggest in the general approach of the Government to the position of unemployment there is a certain amount of callousness being introduced, and a certain amount of that is also creeping into some of the answers given by the Minister to questions in this House. I would like to raise a word of protest against it and to ask the Minister as far as possible to endeavour to avoid getting into that frame of mind because of the difficulties that are growing quickly around him. The Government Press, a couple of weeks ago, treated people to a big heading: "Two hundred less unemployed weekly," at a time when the number of unemployed weekly was rising very rapidly. The Minister has created a position with regard to figures for unemployment that makes it almost impossible to use any of these figures. We can, however, see the position with regard to unemployment in the number of persons who are approaching local bodies. Even to-day we are treated in the Government Press to a description of a quickly growing industry. The propaganda runs: "On page 5 will be found a representative list of firms who are extending their operations." Instead of extending operations, one of the principal firms that the Minister refers to is a firm that has fourteen out of its twenty machines idle at the present moment because of the general industrial conditions that have been brought about here.

That callous type of propaganda is being spread more and more over the Government approach to the question of the development of industry. So far as the Minister is concerned, I will refer to the answers he has given recently with regard to the Gallaher Factory. Last week he quoted certain figures—58 men, 17 boys, 100 women and 88 girls—as representing those discharged as a result of the firm closing down. The Minister takes credit for this, that the people who do not come to him looking for work must be employed. A question was asked bearing on the offer he had made to the firm, that if they restarted their manufacturing process and within a limited period of time transferred 51 per cent. of their capital to Saorstát nationals he would give them a rebate from the date upon which they restarted. When he was asked the reasons for making that proposal to the company and why he did not accept the proposals that were made in July last, two months before his proposal, he simply adopted the callous attitude of saying there was no difference between them.

I want to emphasise that attitude. First and foremost, when the matter was raised in June the Labour Party were quite clear as to the great damage that was being done this factory. The Minister could not see his way to take the warning then given that the factory would close down. On 13th July a proposal was made here in connection with the Finance Bill that would have secured that if, within twelve months after the passing of that Bill, the necessary transfer of capital was made, the rebate would then be payable to the company as from 12th May, the date on which the new tax came into operation. That was turned down by the Minister for Finance who said it was illogical. Here is what he said:

Possibly in eleven months' time he converts himself into an Irish company

that is, Gallaher's

and he is entitled to reap, under this amendment, all the benefits and advantages which he would have had if he had been an Irish company during the preceding twelve months. I think the Deputy himself will see why no Government could accept a proposition like that.

The proposal made before the factory had shut down, that if they did transform themselves into an Irish company by a reasonable date they would get a rebate, was definitely turned down by the Minister for Finance on 13th July and he was supported in turning that down by all the Labour Party members then in the House, six of them. When I asked the Minister what was the difference between that and the proposal that he made two months later, after the factory had been shut down, he said there was a difference, but he would not explain.

There is only one difference and that is that the proposal in July was a proposal to do a certain thing before the factory had shut down and the proposal in September was to do the very same thing after the factory had shut down. That was the difference between them. Realising the difficulties the Minister is facing, and knowing they are real difficulties, I do not think the Minister is doing justice either to himself or to the people with whom he is concerned, whether they be workers or Irish capitalists, by simply trying to stick his fingers into the eyes of this House in the way in which on a few occasions recently he has attempted to do. I will ask the Minister to face up to the real situation. Do not declare that there are people employed when there are not; do not boost the development of firms where these firms are working at 25 per cent. of the capacity at which they were working some time ago. If mistakes are made, face up to those mistakes and see whether by facing up to them they may not be avoided on similar occasions in the future.

I would like to know from the Minister whether he has come to any decision with regard to the representations made to him on the question of coal delivered at the smaller ports in the country. Representations were made to him that it would never be possible to admit to these small ports the large boats that would be necessary to convey Continental coal to this country. It would never be possible to get such boats to go into the smaller harbours throughout the Free State. In that connection it was requested that the tariff on coal should be remitted so far as these small ports were concerned. I suppose that is hardly practicable, but the fact is that there is a rather anomalous position existing. In Dublin they can get coal free from tariffs, but numbers of places throughout the country cannot get such coal and the people are compelled to pay the tariff.

I do not think the Minister should be satisfied with that situation. Whatever chance there was formerly of getting boats of such capacity as could enter these small harbours to come from the Continent there will obviously be no chance between this and next summer. Is the Minister content with that situation? Does he regard it as satisfactory? There are certain ports in the country where the people have no alternative to tariffed coal. In Dublin, Cork and other places they have an opportunity of purchasing Continental coal which, I understand, is now being sold at a lower price than British. The whole situation in this respect does not seem to me to be satisfactory.

There is a good deal of truth in what Deputy Moore stated, that the small ports are being badly hit so far as coal is concerned. In a great many cases large steamers are unable to enter these ports. I have in mind the position that prevails in Wexford, where the harbour is tidal, and where boats drawing eleven or twelve feet of water can come in only at high water. The result is that any continental coal for Wexford town is brought via Rosslare Pier, and the dock labourers in Wexford are idle for a considerable time. Something should be done by the Minister to deal with that situation. I think it would be well if he considered the advisability of remitting tariffs on cargoes brought to small ports, provided they came in ships owned by Irish owners. I would like to make strong representations in that connection and to join with Deputy Moore in asking the Minister to consider them.

Deputy Mulcahy suggested that some callousness had been displayed by me, or by the Government generally, in relation to the unemployment problem. I think that charge is without justification. I do not think it is possible for anybody occupying the position I do, and receiving the representations that have come to me, to be callous in relation to unemployment. It is undoubtedly the biggest problem we have, and it is the undoubted duty and the responsibility of the Government to secure that it is reduced in dimensions as speedily as possible, and that every measure possible, within the resources of the country, is taken to ease the hardship that exists consequent on unemployment.

The Minister certainly has not been callous.

I think Deputy Mulcahy mentioned what he expected the Government to try to do in relation to unemployment and certain propagandist statements. He referred to statements that appeared in the Press and mentioned the "Irish Press." It is undoubtedly correct that the figures available in relation to the number of registered unemployed, and the number of vacancies filled through the Employment Exchanges, have been misunderstood in a number of quarters, and not merely in the "Irish Press." I refer the Deputy to the "Irish Independent" of yesterday, and to a number of British papers that circulate in this country, which published side by side the number of registered unemployed at this time last year and the number of registered unemployed to-day. They published these figures without the qualifying note accompanying them that was supplied by my Department. That is something more than a misunderstanding; it is deliberate dishonesty. The Deputy knows —and I am sure the leader-writers in the "Irish Independent" and other correspondents whose effusions appear in the "Daily Mail" and the "Daily Express" are quite well aware of it —that it is not possible to compare the figures for registered unemployed this year with those available for last year, because they are compiled on an entirely different system, and deal with an entirely different situation. It is impossible to say what the registered number of unemployed this time last year would have been, if the same conditions for registration, and for the recruitment of labour on relief schemes through the Labour Exchange, that exist now existed then. I have never attempted to minimise in the slightest degree the gravity of our unemployment problem. I pointed out before that it is probably correct to say that 50 per cent. of those registered at the Labour Exchange as available for work are small landholders or persons with other means of livelihood who, although available for work and anxious to get it, cannot be regarded as unemployed in the ordinary sense. At the same time we have to face the fact that the situation is possibly growing in seriousness. It is the usual course that the numbers unemployed increase over the winter months. That is why the Government has taken special powers in the matter of relief funds in order to provide that direct expenditure on relief schemes in the winter months is at the maximum when the condition of the unemployed is worst. I think it is an obvious fact in the circumstances in which this country is situate at present, with the dislocation of trade which has resulted from the imposition of tariffs upon certain exports to Great Britain, that the steps that have been taken by the Government in order to reorganise the economic life of the country in the new circumstances must have caused certain dislocation, and that it will be a very difficult task to put the economic system operating here on a basis by which it will of its own accord be capable of providing a livelihood for all our people. In the interval we must take special measures, and that is our justification for the large grants made available on the relief votes and the additional sums we are going to make available. We realise that the resources of this country, and the ability of our people, to provide the means are strictly limited. Within these limits we are going to ensure, as far as organisation and direction of the national forces provide, that the degree of hardship which exists among the unemployed will be reduced to the minimum and that work —wherever possible useful public work —will be available to occupy the labours of those now idle.

I think I am entitled to ask that we should not have, from presumably responsible newspapers, the exaggerated and misleading statements which appeared during the last few days. Figures were published which are calculated to deceive, because the necessary qualifying remarks which should have accompanied them are not given. My remarks may apply in more directions than one. The position is that we have roughly 90,000 registered as unemployed; that probably 50,000 of these are small landholders and the like seeking occasional work on the roads; and the relief funds are so administered that persons getting work under them must get it through the Exchanges. The operation of that condition has increased very considerably the number of vacancies recorded as filled through the Exchanges every week. As I said, the average is about 2,019 in the last week for which the figures are available. That should not be taken as meaning that the number of unemployed is reduced by that amount every week. That is not the case. That figure was quoted by me in a recent debate merely to demonstrate the fact that much more use was being made of the Exchanges than heretofore, when the average number of vacancies filled throughout the year was only 16,000 or 17,000.

I do not know what the Deputy meant by attributing to me some statement that appeared in the "Irish Press" this morning, in relation to trade and industry. If my recollection serves me right, the industry dealt with in that particular article which the Deputy spoke of was the readymade clothing industry. I do not know what firm he has in mind which is working only to 25 per cent. of its capacity. But I do know that if any one of these firms is in that position it is possibly due to some defect in the management. There is no reason why any firm engaged in that industry should not now be fully occupied. I admit that this is not the busiest period of the year, but the fact that a number of additional firms have come into the industry would seem to indicate that there is sufficient scope for additional firms in it. Additional readymade factories have been opened. The same page of the "Irish Press" contains an announcement to which he refers announcing the pending opening of another factory. There are at least two other firms with substantial capital coming into that industry on a large scale and there is still room for further development.

I do not want to make any controversial statement concerning the position of Gallaher's factory. As regards the persons who were formerly employed there, and who are not now registered as unemployed, it is assumed by my Department and as a result of definite inquiries made, that most, if not all, of them have found employment elsewhere. When I gave an undertaking here that every effort would be made by me and by my Department to place in employment those formerly engaged in Gallaher's factory, I took immediate steps to implement that undertaking. Instructions were given in the Department that the ordinary machinery of the Labour Exchanges should be utilised in every way to place the former workers in Gallaher's who were available for work and in addition special representations were made publicly and privately by me and by the Department to individual employers throughout the City. I have no doubt that as a result of these representations publicly and privately made a considerable number of Gallaher's former employees have secured employment without the Labour Exchange coming into the picture at all. I know most of them have secured work. There is still a balance of them unemployed, but we are continuing our efforts and will continue our efforts to secure work for these people.

There are other victims of the new conditions who have just as much claim upon the consideration of the Government as Gallaher's employees have. I should like to refer, particularly, to those who were employed formerly upon occupations in the docks. The volume of external trade has diminished and will diminish more if our protective tariffs secure increased production within the country. We are particularly anxious to ensure that those engaged in that work will get special consideration because, unlike the vast majority of Gallaher's employees, they are adults and heads of families and disemployment of these is much more harmful than the disemployment of a number of girls 16 or 17 years of age. I do not want to enter into what must be an academic discussion as to the difference between the proposal by the Trades Union Congress and the amendment moved by Deputy Mulcahy in July. In July on the day he moved the amendment there were available persons in this country who were prepared to invest substantial sums of money in the Gallaher industry.

All the more reason then for accepting the amendment and making the offer in July instead of September.

My information is that the price demanded by the firm for their participation was, in the opinion of the other party, so unreasonable that no business could be done.

That had not arisen when the Minister refused to accept my amendment.

That, as I say, is the information that came to me. When I came back I decided that if there was any basis whatever for the representations made that the firm was prepared to start and open their factory again, I would try them out. The firm was not prepared to consider reopening their factory and its premises, which had not been finally closed down at the time.

It had and the machinery taken away.

The question of coal was raised by Deputy Moore and Deputy Corish. This question is, undoubtedly, a serious and difficult one. It is true that into a number of small ports small cargoes of coal were imported in the past from Great Britain —possibly one or two cargoes in the year. It is not possible to bring German coal or Continental coal into these ports because the coal from Germany is conveyed in ships of a size too large to enter them. We have been considering that question carefully and trying to devise some means by which the people there who were depending upon that coal for their fuel supplies might be helped. At the same time even a cursory examination of the problem shows that it bristles with difficulties.

Deputy Corish referred to Wexford and to the position in Wexford. The position in Wexford is that large quantities of Continental and also British coal have been delivered there. The price at which British coal has come and been delivered in Wexford is very slightly, if at all, higher than the price last year. In fact the British coal exporter has met the duty either by cutting the price or by reducing the freight.

It is quite possible for the importer to buy British coal, pay the duty and sell the coal at the same price at which he sold it last year, and at a reasonable profit too. I am aware that some of the coal importers are doing that, but some of them are taking advantage of the tariffs. I hope to be able to deal with them. There is a special problem of the small port as well as the problem of the small ships conveying these coals. Both these problems are being considered at the moment. These are I think the only points raised in the debate on this Vote.

Vote put and agreed to.
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