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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Mar 1933

Vol. 46 No. 3

In Committee on Finance. - Local Government Bill, 1933—Second Stage.

I move: "That this Bill be now read a Second Time."

The primary object of this Bill is to put an end to the discrimination which the enactment of Section 71 of the Local Government Act, 1925, enabled the Government and certain local authorities to enforce in recent years for the purpose of preventing persons holding Republican political opinions securing employment to which they were justly entitled. It also empowers local authorities to employ it persons who, though fully qualified and properly elected to posts in the gift of certain local authorities, were denied such employment because of an objection to subscribe to the declaration prescribed by the Local Government Act of 1925. It will enable local authorities to pay to officers in their service remuneration and increments of salary, sanction to the payment of which was denied since 1925 because of the failure of certain officers to subscribe to the declaration or test referred to.

This House, and the public, are already aware that the present Government disapprove of political tests and have undertaken to remove them. The Oath of Allegiance enforced upon members of the Dáil will shortly disappear, and the test exacted from civil servants has been already discontinued. In order to fulfil the Government's undertaking to abolish all political tests, it remains for them to end the test imposed upon officers of local authorities. As far as I am aware, the only statutory example of penalisation of local officers for political reasons is that provided in Section 71 of the Local Government Act, 1925, which relates to a declaration required to be taken by such officers on appointment, or on obtaining an increase of remuneration.

We are of opinion that the enforcement of a political test, declaration or oath, will not procure from civil servants or officers of local authorities more loyal or more efficient service. There are obvious and effective measures for dealing with officers who do not perform conscientiously the duties assigned to them. It is not my intention or desire to provoke a discussion of constitutional issues on this Bill, and I will therefore not enter into the implications of the undertaking we propose to abolish. I may say, however, that there are good citizens of this country who cannot conscientiously subscribe to that declaration, and we refuse to exclude all such citizens from employment in the public service.

We simply want to make the official life of this State non-sectional, and to remove the political tests that were designed to perpetuate the divisions and the bitternesses of the past. This entails the restoration of their rights to all persons identified with the Republican movement in this country since 1919, and the giving to them of opportunities to regain the status of which they were deprived in the past, so as to restore as far as can be done those impartial, non-sectional principles of national government, for which we strove in our fight against British domination.

I have said "as far as can be done": I am well aware of the sacrifices made, the years of unemployment and discouragement, waste (in one sense) of many a man's best years—for which no Act of Parliament can give any adequate compensation. But so far as this Government can go, with the cooperation which we expect to receive from the local authorities, towards redressing the wrongs and restoring the rights of victimised persons—they will go. That is what this Bill is designed to do in so far as employees of local authorities are concerned.

The repeal of Section 71 is effected by Section 2 of the Bill. The repeal will take effect as on and from the 9th March, 1932, with appropriate provisions for the voidance of the operation of the section where the time had begun to run from the 9th February, 1932. Section 3 of the Bill relates to increases of salary or emoluments which would have become payable to an officer but for the operation of Section 71, and it proposes to give validity to any resolution of the local body awarding such increases of salary which became void by reason of the failure of the officer concerned to subscribe to the declaration. There are consequential provisions to effect the payment of the total amount of additional salary and emoluments to such officers; provisions to cover cases where officers have been transferred from the service of one local authority to another local authority and the revision of pensions or gratuities, at present payable on the basis of the lower scale of salary.

Section 4 of the Bill relates to the appointment by a local authority of persons formerly removed from or refused office under a local authority. It is proposed to empower local bodies, with the sanction of the Minister, to regard persons so removed or refused office in the past for political reasons as being qualified for appointment to such office or an analogous office under the same or any other local authority whenever a vacancy occurs therein in the future. For the purpose of considering qualifications for the vacancy, any officer formerly employed in Northern Ireland shall be regarded as qualified in connection with analogous vacancies occurring in Saorstát Eireann. It is proposed to empower the local authority to place any person thus reappointed on the salary scale which, in the opinion of the Minister, he would have reached if he had not suffered any removal from office or had not been refused appointment to an office in the past.

Section 5 relates to the periods of pensionable service to be taken into account by a local authority for the purpose of computing the superannuation which will be payable to any officer of a local body whose tenure of service had been interrupted for political reasons and who subsequently was re-employed or reinstated in pursuance of the provisions of this Bill in the local service. For the purpose of calculating the amount of any pension to which such officer may be entitled under the Local Government Law it is proposed that his pensionable service may be reckoned as including the period of broken service where such period begins between the 1st January, 1922, and the 9th March, 1932. Consequential provisions are made in connection with the liability for superannuation where an officer was employed by more than one local authority. The expression "local authority" is defined as including any local authority in Northern Ireland up to the 30th April, 1923.

It is proposed that where any local authority in the Saorstát employs a person formerly in the service of a local authority in Northern Ireland who was removed therefrom for political reasons, the Minister for Finance may pay from State funds a contribution towards the pension of such person in respect of his period of office in Northern Ireland and his period of broken service. Cases have come under my notice where a person continued for some short time to act in an office where his legal tenure of service had been voided by the operation of Section 71 of the Act of 1925. Such persons were not paid for this period of de facto service and Section 6 of the Bill proposes to legalise any such payments since made or to be made by the local authority.

Section 7 relates to the period 1st July, 1922, to 30th April, 1923, during which certain officers and servants of some local authorities were absent from their duties by reason of being imprisoned or interned for political reasons. It is proposed to enable the local authorities concerned to pay to such persons the whole or part of any remuneration which would have been normally payable to them in respect of such period.

Can the Minister give us any estimate as to the cost of this Bill?

I cannot say. The Bill is a permissive one and local bodies "may" pay. It does not say anywhere that they "shall" pay. Local bodies may pay salary or wages to people who were deprived for reasons set out in the Bill. We have no idea of what the total cost may be. In the case of the Dublin Corporation, we have an estimate and we are told it may cost the citizens of Dublin in or about £3,000.

A total sum of £3,000.

A total sum, yes.

I rise to oppose this Bill. The net purpose of it is to remove that declaration of allegiance which is imposed by Article 71 of the Act as it exists at the present time. It not merely goes back to say that anybody who failed to give that declaration of allegiance in the last number of years shall suffer no loss thereby, but it also declares that, hereafter, anybody due for any such office or for such increased emolument shall be absolved from allegiance to this State and the Constitution of this State. In relation to that other Oath Bill, dealing with the Oath we take on becoming members of this assembly, the unthinking and ignorant people of this country were very easily misled because, owing to the constitutional position of the King here, as defined by our Constitution, being identical in person with the King in Great Britain, it was very easy to appeal to old prejudices and to say that that Oath implied an oath of allegiance to a foreign monarch. That of course, was a very effective way of rallying the more ignorant people in this country, but the terms of the Oath that is to be done away with now are these:

I, so-and-so, do solemnly and sincerely declare that I will bear allegiance to the Irish Free State and its Constitution as by law established and that, in the event of my appointment being confirmed by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, I will, to the best of my judgment and ability, duly and faithfully perform the duties of the said office and will observe and obey such orders and directions in relation to such office as shall lawfully be given to me.

One naturally assumes that the purpose of this Bill is not to make it possible for people to be appointed to these positions who will fail to perform the duties attaching to that office faithfully. Therefore, I presume that the purpose of this Bill is to absolve one section of the community and, logically, all sections of the community, from allegiance to this State and the Constitution. I know that, in 1929, Deputy de Valera, as he was then, and President de Valera as he is now, said:

We are asked to state clearly what our attitude towards this House is. I have on more than one occasion said exactly what our attitude was. I still hold that our right to be regarded as the legitimate Government of this country is faulty, and that this House is faulty.

When that statement was made, Deputy Cosgrave was President here, and one might have said that one knew that Deputy de Valera had what one might call a legitimatist complex, and that the mere fact that Deputy Cosgrave was President here, to the mind of the present President, would imply that all people of this country were absolved from any allegiance to the State, Constitution or institutions of the State.

But one did hope when the people of this country had been persuaded to elect Deputy de Valera as President and to form a Government here that that refusal to recognise the authority of the Government and of this House would cease, and that by the mere fact of becoming President he would recognise that the Irish people having elected the Government owed allegiance to that Government as every people in every country and in all ages of history have done. That duty of allegiance was binding on all the people of this country in conscience irrespective of any Acts this Parliament may pass. Here we are now bringing in a Bill to absolve the people of this country from the duty of allegiance to this State. I would like to know is it a fact that we owe no allegiance to this State and, if we owe no allegiance to the State and to the Constitution, do we owe allegiance to any State or to any order of Government? This seems to me, speaking as an Irish Nationalist, to be one of the most disgraceful propositions ever made. It is an assertion that we Irish people are some thing lower in the human scale than any other people in any other part of the world. The Government with its majority and authority has power. They can change the Constitution and can make any laws they think are for the benefit of the country, and, at the same time, the people of this country are not bound to be submissive to these laws, and are not bound to give allegiance to this State instituted here of which the Government has control.

One might expect me rather to rejoice that such a proposition might be made, and although I have never been what I might call an enthusiast of Fianna Fáilism, I must recognise that to any Act this Government may pass I owe submission; that I owe allegiance to the State and that I owe allegiance to the Constitution as it is and as it may be changed from time to time. We are told that this Parliament is legislating and declaring that the people of this country owe no allegiance to their own State. This Government can legislate to that effect a dozen times if it likes. But it does not alter facts. You can pass this Bill, but every person will owe allegiance to the State whether they want to or not. That declaration of allegiance is binding on the conscience of everyone. As I said, I know of no more disgraceful thing than for a Government of the Irish people to come here with such a proposal. While every other people in the world possess a State that State exists for the general well-being, and demands the allegiance and the submission of the people. In this country we are something inferior. It was often said about us that we were unfit to self-government. We are now legislating to prove that we are so unfit. What is behind this? I know that up to the 14th of March, 1929. President de Valera recognised no authority in this Parliament, but presumably recognised that some body of people outside, responsible for many dastardly acts, could claim submission from the people.

During the last few years we had the Fianna Fáil Party denouncing our Party when in power on the grounds that we were what they called a coercionist Party. We were elected as a Government and recognised that the people owed allegiance. The vast majority of the people gave that allegiance from the dictates of their consciences, but other people with distorted consciences withheld that allegiance, and when they translated that refusal of allegiance into acts they were duly punished, and the law was amended from time to time so that the way of the evil doer would not be easy in this country. For that reason we were denounced as a coercionist Government. I say that this Bill clearly marks this Government as exclusively coercionist. The Government, recognising that it does not possess authority, and has not the right to claim allegiance in this country, according to the speeches of Ministers and the other Fianna Fáil Deputies, have interpreted the verdict of the last General Election as meaning that this Government, being elected, has the right to demand what in Russia would be called ideological conformity. Such ideological conformity I absolutely refuse to give. I do not recognise that the Government has the right to make me pretend what I believe is untrue. This Government and the members of the Fianna Fáil Party have been going round indicating that unless that ideological conformity is given, the material sanctions of this Government will be used against those refusing that conformity.

What authority has the Government? By being elected in a majority they got control of the army, the police and the various other forces, armed and otherwise. Consequently they are in a position of power. If they wish to deal in any way with anyone, or with any section of persons, they have all the machinery for dealing with them effectively in a penal way. But the Government, by their own declaration, recognise that they have no other authority except the control of the armed forces. They recognise that the people of this country do not owe it allegiance. As far as the past is concerned, knowing Fianna Fáil's record, one knew that the first thing they would do would be to try to get money from public funds, and to put that money into the pockets of their followers as quickly and as efficaciously as possible. One could not entirely approve of that, but it would not be really anything fundamentally and permanently bad. What I think is most objectionable in this is that it declares that for the future the Government recognises that it would be an unwarrantable thing for them to expect a people, or a section of the people of this country, to give allegiance to this State, and to the Constitution and to the institutions of the State. How any Government could get up and make such a proposal I do not understand, unless they have themselves become befogged in their attempt to befog the people.

This Government can change the Constitution, and can change the present State into a Republic, can do anything they like, or make any laws they like, but they say that the people here are not to owe allegiance to the State. If they told us that this is only for a short time, until they made certain changes, one might see the situation in another light. Here the Government is elected. We have had victory meetings all over the country. What was the victory? Was the victory merely because Deputy de Valera and his Party were going to get control of State finances and State forces, and that with the control of these finances it would be able to dispense them amongst its friends and with the control of the State forces be able to punish anyone who objected? Was that the victory that was being celebrated, or was it the victory that, President de Valera and his Party being elected in a majority, would receive from heaven authority to govern in this country, and that having received that authority, automatically and necessarily it would be bound to get from every right-minded man or woman the allegiance that every citizen in every country owes to his State? I would certainly consider that there would be a very great improvement in this Bill if it said that up to the 9th March, 1932, or the 8th February, 1933, any adverse effect anyone might have suffered by refusing to make that declaration would be remedied, and that from any given date this State was going to demand and going to get allegiance from its people. I admit, even though only that were done, it would be a scandalous thing to suggest that the Irish people only owed allegiance when a certain man was elected as President, but at least it would mean that as from some date the Irish people were going to be equal to people in every other country in the world and were going to be governed by the same moral principles.

We are apparently something different from any other people in the world. The moral law that applied always and in all cases somehow or other does not apply to us. This Bill is completely null and void. It declares that we do not owe allegiance to the State and its effect is merely that the Government will be able to give money from State finances to people who are essentially traitors to this country. We have been described up and down the country as traitors and the people who are most active in denouncing us as traitors are people who consistently declare that they give no allegiance to this country. In a paper called "An Phoblacht," week after week and even in ordinary newspapers, we see declarations from bodies that are directly responsible for putting the Government in office, declaring that they intend to give no allegiance and no submission to the laws made by this Government. Apparently this Bill is introduced merely for the purpose of placating these people. It does seem to me that it would be really better to let these people generally govern instead of doing, as they are doing, governing behind the smoke screen of the Fianna Fáil Party.

The Minister read out a long statement rather inaudibly, I must say, and I cannot pretend that I heard the whole of it but I did hear one reference to a political test. What is a political test? Is it a political test to demand that anybody performing any service which will be paid for out of public funds shall give allegiance to the State and Constitution? Is that a political test? If it is what would be a non-political test? I quite agree that in one sense it is a political test because we are all political beings and it is the mere fact of a political nature that makes it so necessary to bind us to give this allegiance, but the implication of the words "political test" implies, and is meant to imply, that it is a test binding people to one political party in the State rather than to the State itself. But here is a Bill declaring that this State is a party concern, that although Deputy de Valera is President of the Free State, the Free State is somehow or other the property, the thing as one might say, of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. Surely the Government do not intend to assert that. We recognise that they are in charge of the State, that they can govern with authority, that they have the right to change the form of the State, the Constitution or anything else, and that in general we all owe allegiance to whatever form of State there may be. But here is a most disgraceful and immoral proposal.

We declare by this legislation that it is unjust and inequitable that the people of this country should owe allegiance to their own State. It is a declaration that all that was ever said about us before, that the Irish people were unfit for self-government, was true. The people were offered self-government and they were able to form a Government and to give to that State and Constitution the allegiance which is due to that State and Constitution. The Government might, in bringing in this Bill to reward their supporters. have merely made it retrospective and have said that as far as this test was concerned while Deputy Cosgrave was President nobody should suffer for withholding their allegiance but that as from the 9th March, 1932, or the 8th February, 1933, there was going to be no more nonsense about any people in this country—a new Government having been elected by the people— refusing to give allegiance to that Government and to the Constitution whatever form it might from time to time take, that the Government was going to do its primary duty and see that conformity with the law and submission to the law were going to be enforced on the people.

I do not pretend to admire much of the legislation which this Government has brought in, but I submit that this Bill is, if anything, worse than the Bill which dealt with the Oath in this House. In the other Bill they were able to pretend a certain stupidity and ignorance. They could bring in the red herring about the King, but here there was no reference to the King. These people are merely asked to give allegiance to the Constitution as it is, and this Government comes along and says that the people of this country are not to be asked to give any allegiance. I know that as far as a certain small blackguardly section of the people in this country are concerned, this Government has already recognised their right to withhold their allegiance and to work against the interests of the people. But it is even a more serious thing to come along and make it the law of the land, giving these people the right to withhold their allegiance and to be traitors to their own State.

I rise to support the Bill. I confess that I am quite unable to follow the line of reasoning which actuated the speech of the Deputy who has previously spoken. He seems to indicate that if this measure passes we immediately give absolution to all citizens of the State to withhold their allegiance to the State. I hold the very reverse view. I hold that all citizens of the State owe allegiance to the State and to the laws made by the duly elected representatives of the people. I believe this Bill is a measure of confidence in the people to give that allegiance without asking them to make this declaration. This declaration was framed in an abnormal period, in a period of suspicion and unrest, a period which we would all religiously hope was not typical of the normal life of the country. Having gone through that period, I think it is up to the Government to remove the stigma which this test contained on the escutcheon of the Irish people. I see no reason whatever for its imposition. If the officers and servants of local authorities are to be put to this test, then the citizens from whom they are drawn should have a similar test imposed on them in private employment. This Government and Dáil are elected by the people from whom these officers and servants are drawn. These people have qualified themselves for these onerous positions as officers and servants of the various public bodies, and in imposing this test upon them you, in effect, cast a suspicion of treachery upon them. If they are not to give allegiance except through some form of words it will never achieve much in actual practice. I certainly agree that the Government are doing the right thing in removing this test, and I think they are more likely to get allegiance to the constitution and to the duly elected Government of the people by doing so. I, speaking as a member of the Labour Party and, having hopes that this country will one day have a Labour Government, would expect and accept the same allegiance from these officers as has been given to Cumann na nGaedheal and Fianna Fáil. I think this test is absolutely unnecessary; it has been there too long, and I welcome its removal.

This Bill attempts to enshrine in the legislation of this country something that is novel as far as my experience of the Constitutions of other States is concerned. After listening to Deputy Keyes one really has to begin to wonder in what direction this House as representing the country is heading. As Deputy Fitzgerald has emphasised here, one is amazed at the suggestion or the proposal contained in the primary purpose of this Bill, and that is to repeal a test which has applied to a civil servant, who is drawing a salary from the State, because he is going to come into the employment of the State. It seems to me to be an outrage to suggest that a citizen entering into the employment of the State is to be under no obligation or duty as to his service to the State. So far as I am aware there is no State in this world where that exists and where some test of this kind of duty and loyalty to the State by a civil servant or the servants of the State does not apply. Yet, we have this Bill being introduced into this House and approved of very eloquently by Deputy Keyes.

I oppose the Bill on that ground, but I oppose it secondly on behalf of the taxpayers of this country on the ground that public money is being extracted from the taxpayers of the country to pay a salary to people who will be under no obligation whatever to the people from whom the money is taken to give them loyal and dutiful service. For these two reasons I oppose this Bill. I say that it is an outrage to suggest that money should be taken from the taxpayer to pay people to be servants of the State and that they will not be expected to owe any allegiance to this State. It is an outrage. It is without any precedent. This Bill is going to enshrine in the legislation of this country the principle that a person can enter into the State and be utterly disloyal to the State and at the same time draw his salary from the State. I know of no country in the world where a Bill of that kind or where legislation of that kind obtains.

I rise merely to say that it appears to me that at the present time such a test as is proposed to be abolished by this Bill serves no useful purpose. We can abolish that test without infringing any international agreement, without any breach of international manners, or without destroying any of our international markets or, I think, incurring the slightest danger to our own State. I think that the time for declarations, oaths, and all such tests has passed and that they should be abolished if they can possibly be got rid of. No doubt they serve a useful purpose in times of civil war, rebellion or great disturbance and, therefore, apart from what Deputy Fitzgerald has said, the part of this Bill that does not appeal to me is its retrospective character. I am thoroughly in favour of abolishing the test in the future, but it occurs to me that it was quite reasonable to impose that test at the time in which it was imposed, and I am not at all inclined to see the ratepayers saddled with expenses of an unknown amount in order to undo something that, I think, the Government of the day was probably justified in doing.

I rise to support this Bill. I think that, at the particular period when this penal clause was imposed it was imposed for one purpose only, namely to prevent any individual, no matter what were his past services to the State, from getting any employment whatsoever unless he was prepared to be the political hack of the party then in power. I have known men who left college in 1918, men who went out and fought from 1918 to 1922, who went for Civil Service examinations afterwards and who got very high marks in those examinations-men who were entitled to be called up in due course—but because they would not submit to this test were deprived of all employment from 1924 to 1932. I know men who suffered that, and I consider that there can be no greater test of loyalty to an ideal, loyalty to a State, or loyalty to a country than that a man who, knowing that he had only to sign such a test in order to get a good position and a safe position, still refused to sign that test against his convictions. I can see or I know of no better sign of loyalty. I know of men who have gone without the usual increases in salary to which they were entitled from 1923 to 1932 just because they would not submit to that test. These men have gone without those increases, to which they were entitled, for the last ten years. They have gone without them long enough, and when Deputy Fitzgerald comes here and moralises about traitors and that kind of thing, he should examine his own conscience. A traitor is an individual, who, during the war gives hope, aid or succour to an enemy. This country has been at war for the last eleven months. I do not care whether you call it an economic war or an actual war. During that period the arms and ammunition used by that enemy were supplied by Deputies of this House— the arms and ammunition, the bullets that were fired at the heart of the Irish people.

On a point of order, is this relevant to the discussion?

I am waiting to see. The Deputy has not yet elaborated his point.

These bullets were fired by Deputies in this House. I have seen cases here where Deputies of this House on the very day that they left this House, endeavouring to get a settlement by negotiation and a peaceful settlement of disputes, were——

I am afraid that that has no relevancy whatever. I thought that the Deputy might have established some relevancy on other grounds.

I will establish it very quickly.

I would suggest that it is time that the Deputy did.

Deputy Fitzgerald devoted his speech to the question of loyalty to the State and to the question as to whether certain individuals who did not take tests or oaths should be paid out of public funds. The Deputies of this House themselves are paid out of public funds and I think that it is very relevant to this discussion that we should inquire into the manner of the loyalty these Deputies gave this State during the past twelve months. I think it is very relevant to the discussion, particularly in view of the fact that their actions have since been judged by the tribunal of the people and that they have found them guilty. I think that the connection there is very clear. I think, when a Deputy of this House went across to endeavour by honourable negotiation to settle the difficulties existing between this country and the country across the water, that at that particular period when Deputies in this House got up on that very night and immediately forged the bullets that were to be used——

What has this to do with this Bill? We are not proposing to pay any Deputy who went across or who impeded anyone who went across.

The worst of it is I am afraid that we did pay them.

Any Deputy who went across is not referred to in this measure.

The allegation made by Deputy Fitzgerald is that if this Bill becomes law individuals who do not owe loyalty to the State or who will not acknowledge loyalty to the State will be paid out of public funds. My allegation is that during the twelve months past a large number of Deputies in this House who have indulged in disloyalty to the State have been paid out of public funds.

There is nothing in this Bill about Deputies.

Well, if there is not, there ought to be.

Why not bring in a Bill of your own?

I do not wish to go into the matter further than to say that these gentlemen should, at least, grace the House with their silence. They have, undoubtedly, victimised these unfortunate people enough. Individuals who passed a competitive examination, securing very high places, and who were entitled to Civil Service positions have been compelled to exist during the past nine years on temporary employment for two or three months at 50/- per week. I know these individuals. It is time that that ended. Victimisation of that kind towards supporters of any political party—I do not care what party— should end. There are constant complaints of victimisation, but if ever there were glaring cases of victimisation these are the cases. I know unfortunate school teachers who were deprived of their employment for two or three years because they would not subscribe to some special test. It is time that that ended, and I am glad that there is a Government in office which is ending it. I have to say this to the gentlemen opposite, that if they make much more noise we will take them out and get rid of a few of them —take them out before the tribunal again and lighten the number.

A colleague of Deputy Keyes before his Party became so closely associated with the Fianna Fáil Party had occasion to declare that the Fianna Fáil Party was unfit for Government arising out of his experience in attempting to address the people Deputy Corry speaks about in the Mansion House in Dublin. In sub-section (7) of this Bill we have a suggestion to local authorities that they do something with regard to certain of their employees. That discloses a policy on the part of the present Ministry which, in respect of their Left, is a very different policy from that which they would show to those people who are somewhat to their Right in their outlook on political matters. Section 7 asks, in the case of an employee of the Cork County Council who took part in the destruction of Mallow Bridge, who spent some of his time at that and some of his time in internment as a result of his action, then——

What about murder by—

It suggests that that employee should be paid for his time. Local authorities are now being invited to grant back pay to those employees who spent some of their time in 1922 and 1923 destroying the property of the ratepayers, for which the taxpayers or the ratepayers had to pay. That destruction was done in the time of their employers and they are to be paid for the time spent in doing that work of destruction.

For doing their duty to the Republic which you foreswore.

This policy is enshrined in the Bill before this House by people who have very different things to say about other employees of local authorities. I spoke of the experience of a member of Deputy Keyes' Party when attempting to address the citizens of Dublin in the Mansion House before the Labour Party was associated with the Fianna Fáil Party. Deputy Corry is going to haul people before the electorate—I do not know whether or not that was the word he used. In the beginning of January, some of us did attempt to carry out our duty of standing before the electors and advocating our policy. At the opening meeting in O'Connell Street, in the City of Dublin, the followers of the Fianna Fáil Party attempted, with a very considerable amount of violence and with a certain amount of success, to prevent members of an opposite political party from addressing their constituents——

An bhfuil aon bhaint ag an sceal so leis an mBille atá ós ar gcomhair?

Tá, agus teasbeanfad an baint atá leis.

Táim ag fanamhaint ar an dTeachta é sin do theasbaint.

The success was only partial because of the action of certain courageous citizens. Members of the Government and of the Fianna Fáil Party are threatening these citizens, in so far as they are employees of local bodies and in so far as they are persons who have served as National Army soldiers or Irish Volunteers, that the State will step in and deprive them of their positions or their pensions from State funds.

Is that in this Bill?

Because they acted the part of courageous citizens—

It is suggested that in this Bill the Government propose to deprive the people the Deputy is referring to of their pension rights?

I am discussing the policy of the Government as regards the employees of local authorities. I am showing that certain employees of these authorities are entitled, under this Bill, having destroyed public property and fought against the State, to receive moneys from the State—

I am allowing that.

That is being done by persons who threaten other employees of local bodies that if they exert their rights as courageous citizens on the streets to prevent mobs interfering with the lawful discharge of certain rights they will be deprived of their employment under these local bodies.

That is not in this Bill.

I am discussing, in a Second Reading way, the policy of this Bill and I am comparing it with the general policy of the Government.

I cannot allow the Deputy to travel over the whole of the Government policy in this measure. I have no evidence before me in this Bill to show that the Government is threatening to dismiss anybody for any action taken, or proposed to be taken, or authorised to be taken. I can only allow the Deputy to discuss what is in the Bill with reference to other public servants.

I submit that I am discussing Government pronouncements as regards the employees of local bodies and what they may be allowed to do. This Bill allows an employee of Cork County Council who may have assisted in the destruction of Mallow Bridge and been interned as a result to be paid back pay in respect of the time he was destroying Mallow Bridge and in respect of the time he spent in internment as a result of his act.

For keeping his oath.

At the same time they are threatening employees in Cork County Council or Meath County Council or Dublin County Council that if they exercise their rights, or make use of the rights or responsibilities that citizens have to assist the police in maintaining order, they will be deprived of their employment under these local bodies.

On a Second Reading speech a Deputy can discuss what is in the Bill and what he would like to see in the Bill.

Then I say I would like to see an addition to this Bill, bearing in mind the latitude allowed to local employees in the past, under Section 7, that Local Government employees in the future would be allowed, without threat of dismissal, to act the part of ordinary, courteous citizens.

By joining the A.C.A.

Yes, by joining the A.C.A., if they so desire, and by helping the forces available in this State to maintain the rights of the citizens in this State. And it would be particularly suitable if such a clause were enacted in this Bill by reason of the fact that something has been taken out which some people think will loosen and weaken the amount of help and allegiance given by the citizens of the State.

Ba mhaith liom, a Leas-Chinn Comhairle, fáilte agus céad a chur roimh an mBille seo agus traoslú don Aire i dtaobh é thabhairt isteach. Tá fhios agam-sa an díobháil a rinne an dearbhú dílseachta gránna so do ghluaiseacht na Gaedhilge ó cuireadh i bhfeidhm é sa bhliain 1925. Tá aithne agam ar dhaoine a chaill a slighe bheatha de bhrigh ná beidís sásta a n-ainm a chur leis agus tá aithne agam ar dhaoine a thug an chuid is mó dá saoghal ag obair ar son na Gaedhilge a fuair bata agus bóthar mar gheall ar an ndearbhú so. Cloisimíd a lan cainnte mar gheall ar dhílseacht ach na daoine go ndearnadh éagcóir orra tríd an dearbhú so, bhíodar dílis do chuspóir atá chomh sean leis an gceo, sé sin cuspóir saoirse na tíre seo. Do briseadh iad ach nár bhfearr don dream ar an dtaobh eile den Tigh seo sgaoile leis an Bille gan cur ina choinne agus gan bheith ag cainnt mar a táid? Tá fhios againn go léir ná deineann dearbhú mar seo aon mhaitheas, ní dheineann sé aon deifríocht in aon chor. Ní dearbhú mar seo a chuireann iachall ar dhuine bheith dílis. Sé an spioraid agus an smaoineamh atá i gcroidhe agus in aigne duine a thugann an dílseacht don obair agus do sna daoine atá os a chionn. Bíodh deire leis anois. Ní chuirfe sé feabhas ar an obair a dheineann seirbhísigh phuiblí. Leighisfidh an Bille seo an éagcóir a rinneadh ar na daoine sin go léir chomh fáda agus is féidir an éagcóir sin do leigheas anois. Tá cuid de sna muinnteóirí Gaedhilge a briseadh mar gheall ar ná fuair lá oibre ón lá a briseadh iad agus is dócha go bhfuil daoine nách iad a briseadh mar gheall air sa chás chéanna. Tá daoine ann, daoine agus clann ag brath orra, agus, mar gheall ar an gclainn sin, chuireadh a n-ainm leis an dearbhú cé gur chreideadar gur dearbhú gránna a bhí ann. An gceapann éinne go dtugann a leithéid de rud an spioraid ceart amach i gcroidhe na ndaoine a mhothuíonn gur cuireadh iachall ortha a n-ainm do chur leis an dearbhú san? Ní thugann agus ní thabharfadh choidhche. Beidh deire leis nuair a ritheann an Bille seo agus a bheidh an dearbhú so sgriosta amach, agus, im thuairim-se, ba mhaith an rud é sin. Cuidim leis an mBille agus traosluím don Aire mar gheall ar é do thabhairt isteach sa Dáil seo.

Ba mhaith liom a rádh dá mhéid í an obair atá déanta ar son na Gaedhilge ag na daoine annso atá dá ngearrán ag an dTeachta, nár mhór a thrí oiread chun na díobhála do leigheas atá deánta dhi ag na daoine gur ceapadh an Bille seo ar a son.

Ní dóich liom go bhfuil a lán le rádh agam ach aontú leis an méid adubhairt an Teachta Donnchadh O Briain. Muna bhfuil an dílseacht í gcroidhe nó in aigne an duine, ní féidir í do chur ann le dearbhú mar seo. Ní féidir dílseacht do chur ag fás in áit na béadh sí go nádúrtha.

That is the substance of the argument for this Bill, as stated by Deputy O'Brien, that no declaration of this kind or any other kind, forcing allegiance where it does not exist, will get more loyal or conscientious service from any State official or from any official in a public authority. If loyalty to a public authority is not in the heart and mind of the individual, or the citizen, or official, no declaration of this kind that may be taken, forcing him against his will, will make him do his work better or more conscientiously. I think Deputy MacDermot is right in wishing to see an end of declarations of that kind when they cannot be accepted and abided by willingly. If there was real necessity, and we felt that the work would be better done by asking people to make declarations of that kind there might be something to be said for it, but there was no necessity for it and it was not for the benefit of the State that this declaration was introduced.

It may be no harm to go over the history of this declaration. It was not introduced by the Government; it was not in the Bill when the Government brought it in. Deputy Mulcahy was, I think, then the Minister. He did not ask for it. It was introduced into the Seanad by an individual who was a narrow-minded, bigoted, anti-Republican person, one of the worst that even Deputy Mulcahy's Party has produced, one of the bitterest.

Persons of the most vindictive character introduced this, not for the purpose of securing loyalty to the State, not for the purpose of securing better service for the State, but for the deliberate purpose of preventing anybody who would not sign it, whether Republican or not—and there are people, I am told, who are not Republicans who said they objected to a declaration of this kind and were, in consequence, penalised—from obtaining employment under the State. It was because of the vindictiveness of Deputy Mulcahy himself that he accepted it and put it into his Bill when it came back from the Seanad. We know what his character is. There are people in this House who have very good reason to know the vindictiveness with which he pursued his political opponents as long as he had it in his power to pursue them. There was nothing cold, callous or brutal enough that he would not do to down them in every walk of life. Everything that ingenuity of the most devilish kind could suggest to get after those who were his political opponents he did, and I believe he welcomed this declaration.

It is not right, perhaps, to be going back over these things. I would rather wash them out and forget them. That is what this Bill is for. It is an effort to try to blot out, as far as we can on our side, the memories of the vindictiveness of those who introduced this declaration into that Act in 1925 for the purpose of driving many more, after those who had already gone, out of their livelihoods—driving them to starvation, to exist on home help, driving them into the slums of America and Australia. That is where many of them have been driven by the gentlemen who were responsible for declarations of this kind.

Deputy Mulcahy now talks about asking the ratepayers to pay the people who destroyed Mallow Bridge. Yes, we are going to ask the ratepayers to pay those people who were loyal and faithful to the obligations they undertook, some of them in public and others in private. They undertook to be loyal and faithful to the extent, if necessary, of giving up their lives. It was not a mere matter of salary with them. That consideration did not weigh with them. They stuck loyally by their declared allegiance to a certain State. Other gentlemen—I am not going to suggest that it was for filthy lucre—for, possibly, loyal and good reasons, and some perhaps for other reasons, broke their oaths and resolutions and declarations. We are now asking the public to pay the men who suffered for their loyalty, their faith and their allegiance. We have already gone before the people; we told the people in advance that we intended to ask them to pay and you all know the result. I hope you are satisfied with the verdict.

I would like to make one reference to public speeches. Deputy Mulcahy ought to be the last man to talk in this House or anywhere else about freedom of speech. There is no other man I know of who went to such extremes in his time to prevent Deputies and others who differed from him addressing their constituents. I do not believe there is any other man in this country—there may be elsewhere—who went to such extremes. I can give one or two instances for which I can vouch where forces that Deputy Mulcahy, as a Minister, controlled, fired with machine-guns on public meetings during the course of a general election—during a general election when everybody should be free to get up on a platform to address his constituents. The forces he controlled attacked with their machine-guns. They were not men in plain clothes; they were men in uniform. May I remind Deputies of one instance on the 15th August, 1923, when Deputy de Valera, now President of the Executive Council attempted to address his constituents in Ennis? What did the armed forces of the gentleman who now talks about free speech do during that general election? I think I have said enough to show the sincerity that must be in the hearts of people who have the audacity to stand up here and address people who know the facts.

Does the Minister stand over the actions of his followers in Dublin?

In my own constituency in North Dublin, which is also the Deputy's constituency, an armoured car with machine guns came around and riddled our committee rooms during a general election. There were very few workers there; they were in prison, where I was. There were, however, women and boys working there and they were forced to lie on the floor until the machine-guns were taken away. That is the type of gentleman who talks about freedom of speech. Imagine the cheek——

Does the Minister stand over his followers' actions?

Imagine the cheek he has standing up and talking.

Do we have to hear these statements, and are they relevant?

They are relevant enough.

I was going to get the business before the House over as quickly as possible were it not for these shameful references to things that ought to have been dead and buried. The Deputy contributed very little to cool and calm past bitterness. We are doing our best to put an end to bitterness by introducing measures of this kind which will help to clear the path and bring about unity, harmony and good feeling between all the citizens of the State. We hope that good feeling will be established before long, despite the efforts of the Deputy and others like him. We will ask public bodies—we will not force them— to recognise adequately those servants of theirs who gave good service to the country. They did make sacrifices; they did their best according to their lights. We are asking public authorities to make good, as far as they can, to these people. If they do not wish to do it, we will not force them. We are giving them power to restore what the vindictiveness of those who introduced the declaration of 1925 sought to deprive them of.

I agree with Deputy Keyes when he said that the introduction of this Bill abolishing the declaration was a vote of confidence in the people. We are satisfied to leave the question of loyalty to the State to the people and, judging by recent events, I think we are justified in leaving that matter to the people's choice. Deputy McMenamin referred to oaths and tests and declarations in other countries. I asked him if he would name one country in Europe or in America where public servants have to take an oath or submit to a test of this kind.

I know of no country where there is not a public declaration to the Constitution of the State.

I have some little experience and I have read a fair share and travelled a good deal, but I know of no country where an oath or a declaration of allegiance is asked from public servants or civil servants.

Of loyalty to the Constitution of the State?

Yes. The Deputy talked as if such a test existed in every country. I know of none and I have made some enquiries. Are the people of France less loyal to their Government because neither the members of their Parliament nor their State officials are asked to submit to any test or take any declaration or oath of allegiance to the Government?

You have quite a variety of opinion. Let us take France. In the Parliament of France you have people who detest the Republican form of Government. At no stage in the history of that Republic in France has any Government attempted to ask Deputies entering the House to make a declaration of loyalty to the Government.

The Deputies there are loyal to the State.

That is one instance. I have made inquiries and find that neither in France nor Italy, nor in the United States of America are people asked to make this declaration when they are entering the services of the Government.

How is the chief executive officer of a Department to maintain efficient and loyal service in his Department if he has no machinery to enforce it or to control it?

I think that question does not need an answer.

No, it is efficient——

Efficiency is one thing, but loyalty of this kind is another thing. Efficiency is a thing that can be secured by proper, ordinary, administration by the heads of the State.

I thoroughly agree with what the Vice-President says about tests, but I do not think he is right about the United States of America.

I put the question there to highly paid servants of the State and they told me that they did not know of any case where it was required.

You have to make this declaration or test in order to get into the country as a visitor.

I was there and I never saw any test of that kind.

I am sorry to have to contradict the Vice-President, but it is clear that he did not look carefully at the paper he signed. He swore he was not a bigamist or anarchist and that he would not while there attempt to overthrow the Government by force.

I made a declaration that I was asked to make about ordinary citizenship in this country, about myself and my behaviour, but there was no test.

The paper the Vice-President signed was a test.

We are agreed that tests are useless.

That is so and even these tests do not prevent many people getting into the United States and the United States afterwards have to get rid of them because the statements made by them in the past were not correct. Now it is not true, as was said by Deputy Fitzgerald, that we are bringing in a Bill here to absolve the people from allegiance to the State or absolve them from the obligation to obey the laws of the State. That is a misrepresentation. The purpose of the Bill is well known to Deputy Fitzgerald and we do not go beyond what is in this declaration on the subject of allegiance or what is contained in the Bill. We are satisfied that the laws of the country will be obeyed by the people. We have a Government here that intends to see that the laws will be obeyed by everybody and by every citizen irrespective of section or class. Again I do not think it will add anything to the love of this State or to the loyalty or allegiance that one bears to the Government of the State to force a declaration of this kind upon the citizens.

I am sorry Deputy Fitzgerald is not here. If he were here I would have a few words to say to him. One word I will say to him—that he ought to be one of the last persons in this House to talk about dishonouring bonds, breaking allegiance or breaking a trust. There are people in this House who know the oaths that he swore in public and in private and which he, like others, did not hesitate to break when it suited their purpose. People of that kind, people in glass houses, should not throw stones and they ought to be careful when lecturing other people on loyalty and fidelity and on breaches of trust. They ought to look into their own past and if they cannot talk to other people on these matters without hurting their own consciences, if they have any, they ought to leave that kind of talk alone. Deputy Fitzgerald could get many sore things said to him by some of us who know a little of his past. I will not go into it now; I do not want to go into it when he had not the courage to wait here and hear the reply but other opportunities will arise when he will hear something which even if it does not stir up his conscience may do him good in other respects. I will leave the matter at that. He should not make the type of speech he did which entirely misrepresents the purpose of this Bill. Its purpose is to wipe out injustice and bitterness and the punishment that was inflicted unjustly and improperly on numbers of persons. This Bill is to help to wipe out the bitterness that does exist. We propose to do that by treating people fairly in public employment as well as in private affairs.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá 71; Níl 38.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, William Frazer.
  • Clery, Michael.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Fred Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Davin, William.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Dowdall, Thomas P.
  • Everett, James.
  • Flinn, Hugo V.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadha.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C. (Dr.).

Níl

  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Davitt, Robert Emmet.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Dolan, James Nicholas.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Keating, John.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Connor, Batt.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Reidy, James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Traynor; Níl: Deputies Esmonde and Nally.
Question declared carried.
Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 9th March.
The Dáil adjourned at 7.35 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, March 8th.
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