Vol. 46 No. 5
I move amendment 1:—
In sub-section (1), page 3, line 61, after the word "appointment" to insert the words "or not appointed."
This amendment is designed to secure recognition in the case of a man whose appointment was voided by reason of the operation of Section 71 of the Act of 1925. It is a slight addition to make certain that some cases that might be excluded should be included.
I move amendment 2:—
In sub-section (1), page 4, line 10, to delete the word "subsequently" and substitute the words "at any time subsequent to such resignation or dismissal."
This is merely a drafting amendment to make more clear than was originally in the Bill what the intention is.
I move amendment 3:—
In sub-section (1), page 4, after paragraph (a) to insert a new paragraph as follows:—
(b) where his service before he so resigned or was dismissed was service under a local authority whose functional area was outside the area now comprised in Saorstát Eireann and was service which would have been pensionable service if the functional area of such local authority had been within Saorstát Eireann, to reckon such service as pensionable service, and
The new paragraph (b) proposed to be inserted is intended as a positive declaration of the pensionable status of an officer who served under a local authority in Northern Ireland so as to make any such period of service recognisable for pension purposes in the same way as if such officer had, from the beginning, served under a local authority in the Free State.
Would the Minister say if he has any special cases in mind and the number?
I have only two in mind. There may be others that I have not heard of.
Would the Minister give the House some indication as to what the circumstances are in these two cases.
One is that of a doctor in the County Tyrone. The declaration put up at the time by the Six County Government not being acceptable because of the principles the doctor held, the doctor lost a position. The doctor got an appointment some years after in the Free State. The object of the amendment is to secure to that person the advantages proposed to be given in the Bill to people similarly situated in the service of public authorities in the Free State.
What was the other case?
The other was the case of an official of the Belfast Corporation who was deprived of office in similar circumstances.
Is the doctor male or female?
Female.
I move amendment 4:—
To delete sub-section (3) and substitute a new sub-section as follows:
(3) Where an officer has become entitled by virtue of this section to reckon as part of a period of continuous pensionable service a period of service under a local authority the functional area of which was outside the area now comprised in Saorstát Eireann (whether such period of continuous pensionable service does or does not also include by virtue of this section a period between the termination of such service and his being appointed to a pensionable office under another local authority) and such officer is awarded a pension or gratuity, the Minister shall, out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas, refund to the local authority by which such pension or gratuity is paid, such proportion of such pension or gratuity as the Minister, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, shall determine to be attributable to the service of such officer under a local authority whose functional area was outside the area now comprised in Saorstát Eireann, and in such case Section 47 of the principal Act and sub-section (2) of this section shall not apply.
The new sub-section which it is proposed to substitute for sub-section (3) is designed to make more certain provision for the recoupment of any moneys which will become payable by the State towards the pensions of local officers who have previous service in Northern Ireland. The provision in the Bill as introduced is that the Minister for Finance shall refund any such moneys to the local authority concerned and the liability extends down to the date that such an officer entered the service of the local authority in the Free State. The new provision makes the State liable for the period of service in Northern Ireland of the official concerned, and provides for an apportionment of liability between the State and the local authority for the period intervening between the Northern Ireland service and the service under a Free State local authority. The State share of the liability will be met by the vote of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health and paid by the Minister for Local Government with the consent of the Minister for Finance.
I move amendment 5:
In sub-section (5), page 4, to insert between the lines 62 and 63 the words—"references to resignation from a service shall be construed as including leaving such service otherwise than by dismissal, and".
This is a drafting amendment designed to remove a doubt as to the application of the Act to persons who did not formally resign and who were not, some of them, actually appointed. They never took up office. They were elected perhaps to office but on account of the order, on account of the Department intervening, did not actually take up office, and therefore could not be said to have resigned office.
I move amendment 6:—
In sub-section (1), page 5, in line 30 and also in line 34, after the word "interned" to insert in each case the words "or otherwise absent from his duties."
This amendment also is a drafting amendment. It is designed to include within the scope of the Bill persons who were not imprisoned, or at least were not interned, and were dismissed or absent from office by reason of their political activities.
Does the Minister call it a drafting amendment when it is brought in to include such people?
Yes, I do. The intention was in it originally, but some of the expert draftsmen thought it was not clear enough.
Now it includes anybody who was "otherwise absent from duties."
Is it intended to include the case of a person absent through dereliction from duty?
Certainly not.
As it is worded there, it has that appearance. The words are: "or otherwise absent from his duty."
That means absent for political activity only, not for dereliction of duty. A close examination would be held into each case, naturally.
A person might be absent as a result of dereliction of duty but might say that he was absent on account of his political activities.
By whom will that close examination be made?
By the Department of Local Government and Public Health.
The consideration of those cases may not arise for twenty or thirty years—that is, in the case of persons just entering the service, whose pensions will fall in about twenty or thirty years' time.
This particular section does not relate to pensions, so therefore the question of twenty or thirty years hence does not arise.
Does the question of interruption of service arise?
That does not arise in this section either.
I move amendment 7:—
In sub-section (2), page 5, to delete paragraph (d).
This amendment and amendment No. 9 of Section 8 are to be taken together. Amendment 9 of Section 8 proposes the insertion of a new section. Amendments 7, of Section 7 and 9 of Section 8, are together and are intended to ensure that payments under the Act as a whole shall not be reckoned for the purpose of any limit on the amount of particular rates by means of which such payments would be made. As the Bill stands the provisions with regard to the rates would apply only to Section 7. The desire is to have it apply to the Bill as a whole, and not to Section 7 as it appears.
I move amendment 8:
In sub-section (2), page 5, to add at the end of the sub-section a new paragraph as follows:—
(e) every doubt, question, or dispute which shall arise in the carrying of this section into effect shall be determined by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health whose determination thereof shall be final.
This amendment provides that the Minister shall be the deciding authority in connection with any question or dispute that may arise as to the interpretation of any part of this section of the Bill.
I move amendment 9:—
Before Section 8 to insert a new section as follows:—
For the purpose of any limit on the amount of the rate out of which a payment under this Act is defrayed so much of such rate as is made for the purpose of defraying such payment shall not be reckoned as part of such rate.
This amendment has been discussed already under the previous section.
As I had not an opportunity of speaking on the Second Reading stage of this Bill, I want to register my protest against it, because I believe it is one of the greatest impositions about to be inflicted on the people of the Free State.
In introducing this measure, the Minister for Local Government and Public Health said that the House was aware that the present Government disapproves of political tests and have undertaken to remove them—I quote from his own words. I want to suggest that this declaration which had to be signed by these public servants was not a political test in the full sense and meaning and the most liberal interpretation of that term. The Minister also said, in the course of the debate, that to his knowledge no test of a corresponding nature was demanded from civil servants in other States or countries. I have evidence that even in the United States of America a test is demanded from the public teachers in the schools. That is to say, the word "test" can be construed into meaning a declaration that has to be signed by those servants of the State.
If the Deputy wishes to discuss the contents of the Bill, I suggest that he should wait till the Fifth Stage.
If I am not entitled to discuss it on the Title, I will wait till the Fifth Stage, of course, but I understood that I was entitled to discuss it at this Stage.
It is not usual.
In that case, I shall wait for the Fifth Stage.
