Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Apr 1933

Vol. 46 No. 16

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 45—Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following Motion:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £109,608 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1934, chun Costaisí Oifig an Aire Oideachais, maraon le Costas Riaracháin, Cigireachta, etc.

That a sum not exceeding £109,608 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1934, for the Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education, including the cost of Administration, Inspection, etc.

—(Minister for Finance.)

Eamon O Ciosáin

Sara dtosnód ar chur síos a dhéanamh ar conus is dóich liom is ceart atharú beag a dhéanamh anso is ansúd i gcúrsaí oideachais sa tír seo ba mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh do phoinnte a chuir an Teachta Antoine os ár gcóir. Dubhairt sé nách féidir do thuismitheoirí aon chabhair a thabhairt dá leanbhaí ag baile mar gheall ar gur nGaoluinn a deintear an chuid is mó den obair anois. Muna bhfuil d'argóint aige i gcoinne na Gaedhilge ach é sin is ana-lag an argóint atá aige. Más rud é ná fuil ar chumas a dtuismitheoirí cabhrú le n-a leanbhaí ins na ceachtanna is amhlaidh is fearr é, mar an leanbh a gheibheann an iomarca cabhrach ag baile tógann sé ró-bhog ar scoil é. Is ceart im' thuairim-se leigint don leanbh seasamh ar a bhonnaibh féin. Is fearrde a ragha sé chun cinn sa tsaol 'na dhiaidh sin. Sé dualgas na dtuismitheoirí ná féachaint chuige go ndéanfaidh na leanbhaí a gceachtanna d'fhoghluim agus ní hé a ndualgas na ceachtanna a dhéanamh dóibh.

Dheineas tagairt iné do thácht na brainnse sin, Stair na hEireann, ins na scoileanna, go mór mór na bun-scoileanna. Ba mhaith liom iniu béaloideas a mholadh dhóibh—é bheith d'fhiachaibh ar na múinteoirí scéalta agus sean-ráite, chó maith le hamhráintí, rabhcáin agus mar sin de a mhúineadh. Nuair adeirim scéalta ní scéalta suaracha ná fuil de bhlas ortha ach blas an Bhéarla atá i gceist agam, ach blódhanna béal-oidis a chuireann síos ar thréithe, ar nósanna agus ar imeachtaí na sean-daoine. Dar liom gur mhaith an tseift í chun aigne an scoláire do ghaolú agus deire a chur leis an réimh-chríonnacht meoin agus meanman san a chímíd i measc na n-óg. Ba cheart mar sin go mbeadh leabhra oiriúnacha béal-oideasa i lámhaibh na múinteoirí i dteannta scéalta, amhráintí, agus mar sin de a bheith de ghlan-mheabhair acu.

Anois cad mar gheall ar na feiscanna? Ní mór ná go bhfuilid dulta ar ceal. An bhféadfai aon cheangal a dhéanamh idir na scoileannaibh agus iad chun iad d'athbheochaint? Ar na múinteoiribh atá ár seasamh chuige sin, ach be chóir do Roinn an Oideachais aitheantas a thabhairt dóibh seo a dhéanfadh é; marc agus teisteas na scoile d'árdú dá réir. B'fhéidir go dtiocfádh leis na cigirí scol súil a choimeád ar chomórtaisíbh agus iomaíocht na scoláirí maidir le ceol, amhránuíocht, agallamha, drámaíocht agus mar sin de. D'árdóch san sprid agus mhéadóch sé dúthracht na leanbhaí ní ba mhó ná mar a déanfaí go deo le gnáth-obair na scoile. Do leanbhaíbh na n-árd-rang ba mhó a mholfainn drámaíocht. B'fhéidir go n-abrófaí nách ró mhaith a bheadh féith na drámaíochta i gcuid des na múinteoiríbh féin, ach ba cheart cúrsa dhi a thabhairt dóibh agus iad ins na coláistíbh oileamhna.

Is maith liom a chlos ón Aire go bhfuil feabhas ag teacht ar Cheárd-Oideachas ar fuaid na tíre mar nách mó ná leath-chuibhseach a bhí sé go nuige seo. Ní raibh mórán éilimh ag daoine air, mar tar éis lán-téarma a chaitheamh ag gabháil do ní raibh aon obair le fáil acu. B'fhéidir nach amhlaidh a bheadh an scéal i gceann cúpla blian eile. Chualamar ón Aire, leis, go bhfuiltear chun athruithe a dhéanamh ar Cheárd-Oideachas. Is maith san agus tá súil agam go mbeidh múineadh ceart na Gaedhilge ar cheann acu.

Dubhairt an tAire go rabhthas chun ceárd-scoileanna a thógaint ins an nGaoltacht. Luaidh sé Gaillimh agus mhol an Teachtaire Ó Diolúin, Tír Chonaill, ach táim se ag iarraidh air gan dearmhad a dhéanamh ar Ghaoltacht Chiarraighe, mar a bhfuil na mílte daoine óga ag imeacht díomhaoin agus a ghlacfadh le teasgasc ins na scoileanna san go cíocrach agus go fonnmhar.

An focal deireannach. B'fhéidir nár mhiste, le linn dúinn bheith ag cur síos ar an meastachán so, tagairt a dhéanamh do chúis na Gaedhilge i gcoitchinne. Níl aon amhras ach go bhfuil an teanga ag dul ar aghaidh go maith ins na scoileannaibh agus ins na coláistíbh agus molaimíd lucht a stiúrtha; ach ní leor san. Ní mór í thaghdadh níos treise agus níos dúthrachtaighe i mbrainnsíbh an Stáit ná mar atáthar. Cuige sin caithfear bheith níos déine ar iarrathóiríbh a bheidh ag dul fé scrúdú le haghaidh na bpost san, maidir leis an nGaoruinn, labhairt na Gaoluinne go mór-mhór. Tá dualgas mór ar an Eaglais leis. Obair beagnách in aistear dúinn-ne seadh bheith ag iarraidh an teanga a chur chun chinn ins na scoileannaibh muna dtugtar cothrom na féinne dhí i gcúrsaíbh Stáit agus Eaglais, go mór-mhór cúrsaí a bhaineas leis an nGaoltacht. Ba mhaith liom tagairt do rudaí áirithe maidir leis sin, ach b'fhéidir go mbeadh caoi eile agam air. Dálta an scéil ba cheart agus ba chuibhe dhúinn traoslú d'Easbóg Oirdheare Ráthbhoth i dtaobh a Leitir Charghaois a chur amach gach carghaos as Gaoluinn chom maith le has Béarla.

Mícheál Óg Mac Phaidín

Tá buidheachas Gaedheal na tíre tuillte ag an Aire ar son na hóráide breagha Gaedilge a thug sé dhúinn ag cur an mheastacháin so romhainn. Molaim go mór obair na Roinne seo—go háirthid san Ghaeltacht—agus sé mo bharúil dá ndéanfadh gach Roinn den Rialtas oiread don Ghaeltacht thiocfadh linn a rá go rabhmuid ag dul 'un cinn agus go rabh an Ghaedhilg as baol báis. Faraor ní mar sin atá an scéal; acht níl amhras nach bhfuil an Roinn Oideachais ag déanamh a chion fhéin den obair go dúthractach. Ba maith liom chur i gcuimhne don Aire ohó riachtanach as tá sé faithchí imeartha d'fháil do pháistí scoile nuair a thig talamh d'fháil comhgarach do theach scoile. Sé 'n fáth go bhfuil morán de aos óg na tíre co spadánta, tromchosach, gan luth, gan léim, mar nach bhfuil áit imeartha aca ar scoil. Ma tá caoi ag an Aire ba mhaith linn da bhfuigeadh páistí bochta san Ghaeltacht leabhraí scoile ar an phighin is lugha. Níl mé á n-iarraidh in aisce acht thiocfadh leabhraí dhíol faoi laicse.

Rud eile. Ba cheart leabharlann bheith in uile teach scoile, go háithrid san Ghaeltacht—áit a bhfuil leabhraí gann. Ba chóir go mbeadh leabhraí An Ghúim le fáil sna leabharlann seo Tá muinntir na Gaeltachta ag dréim le morán ón Aire agus tá súil agam nach mbeidh siad meallta.

Tá glún óg ag fás san Ghaeltacht anois agus ní bheidh siad ag imeacht thar sáile. Déanamaois úsáid mhaith dhíobh. Iarraim ar an Aire féachaint chuige agus caoi tabhairt do na buachaillí agus na cailíní seo gléas beatha d'fháil 'na dtír fhéin. Tá meadhonscoil agus scoil ceárdaíochta a dhith ar mhuinntir na Gaeltachta agus tá súil agam nach ndéanfaidh an tAire neamairt san taoibh sin den obair.

Níl mé sásta go bhfuil an teorainn ceart ag an Roinn san Fhíor-Ghaeltacht agus tá fios agam go bhfuil eagcóir mhór á dhéanamh ar pháistí argu ar oidí atá imeall na teorann sin.

Sé mo chomharle don Aire an teorainn athscrúdú go cúramach agus tuilleadh scoltach a chur isteach leis an Fhíor-Ghaeltacht. Tá fhios agam go ndéanfadh so maith mór don Ghaedhilig san Bhreac-Ghaeltacht. Bheireann se uchtach agus misneach dúinne go léir nuair a chímíd an obair éifeachtach atáthar 'a dhéanamh sna Coláistí Ullmhúcháin. Is ionnta so a fuair páistí bochta na Gaeltachta caoi dhul ar aghaidh agus léigheann agus oideas d'fháil bhí ceilte ortha le bliantaí fada.

Deirim go mbéidh beannacht mhuinntir na Gaeltachta go deo ar an té chur tús agus dlús leis na Coláistí Ullmhúcháin.

Agus anois ó fuair an Roinn eolas ar an mhianach luachmhar atá sa Ghaeltacht molaim dóibh congbháil ar an chasán sin.

Cuireadh siad 'un tosaigh gach páiste athchomar a bhfuil eirim chinn aige agus tugadh siad caoi dhoibh postaí d'fháil ar fud na tire san Stát-Sheirbhís, ag múinteoireacht no ag ceárdaíocht.

Seo an dóigh a bhéaras tú blas agus snas na beo-theangan isteach go lár na Galldachta; seo an dóigh leis an Ghaedhilig a leathnú agus a dhaingniú ar fud na tíre.

Mr. T. Kelly

There is in this Estimate a sum, I think, of £10,000 set aside for the purpose of the preparation and publication of translations of original works in Irish and also for Irish music. I should like to know how is this grant for Irish music to be used in the terms of popular interpretation. I am interested mainly, in introducing this matter, in the question of the disemployment of a large and very cultured number of our people. I allude, of course, to the musicians. I do not suggest that it is due to the economic war at all, or to the general depression. But I do submit that it is due to the change in the manners of the people. The cult of the picture house and the cult of the jazz shop is, I think, affecting very considerably and in a not very pleasant way—I want to be very careful of the words I use, as I am generally not too careful—the disposition of our people. I know myself, personally, that in this city a large number of men and women have been thrown out of employment by the mechanisation of the picture shop. I have never seen a "talkie." I do not know what it is like. I never propose to see one; but I understand from those who are habitual picture-goers that there is really a very big change, from the point of view of culture, between the silent pictures and the present "talkies." People tell me that it used to be a pleasure, from a musical standpoint, to go into those picture houses years ago, and that this is all changed now. I suppose that the general wish for this unhealthy excitement and love-stuff that is being circulated now in every picture house throughout this country has demoralised, in some way at any rate, the better sense of our people.

The particular type of citizen for whom I speak suffers poverty, and suffers it, probably, in its most intense sense, because it is a secluded poverty which they suffer. They never make their positions known and, as a matter of fact, have to be actually discovered by the various charitable organisations which look after our poor and indigent citizens. I submit that there ought to be an attempt at a change. I may be out of order altogether so far as dealing with such a question on this Estimate is concerned; but I looked through the Estimates simply to find out where I could see art and science and especially music, and being shown exactly by one of the Minister's assistants the proper places in the book to look at, I discovered this sum of £10,000.

The change that I should like to see brought about, if it were possible, would be an attempt to organise civic orchestras inside the five large cities in this country subsidised, first, by grant from the Minister, if it is possible for him to do so, and subsidised also by a small rate-in-aid struck by the local authorities, and, in the third place, possibly, supported by citizens who are blessed with wealth and have cultured minds. I look upon this as a very serious thing, not only from the point of view of the present unhappy position of those citizens to whom I have alluded, but also from the point of view of the general trend of the aspirations of our people. From a national standpoint, I submit that it would be very useful work and very exemplary work for the Minister and his Department to undertake in order to bring about again the popularisation of the national music of our country. I remember when I was a boy—that is a good while ago now— but when I was a boy, I used to meet, amongst the older people in the neighbourhoods in which I lived—all poor men and poor women—people of extraordinarily cultured minds. They had lived through a period of great musical effort in this city, 80 and 70 and 60 years ago. I remember well of course, when I was a grown man, the enthusiasm of 25 years ago, amongst Sinn Féin, the Gaelic League and all the other associations existing then with strong national aspirations, for our native music. That is now all gone, or nearly gone. That may be a very strong statement to make, but I believe it is true. I think it would be great work if we could help to restore it. The Hollywood element, we know, has got big odds in the race, but nevertheless, I think, with the help that I am sure we could get, we would probably make some tracks in endeavouring to overtake that element.

I submit, then, to the Minister that he should consider the matter and see if it would be possible for him to make this offer to the local bodies. There are many hundreds of our people, I know, idle and they have been idle for a long time owing to the change in the management of these picture houses and other changes, such as jazz music. We hear this jazz music very often in going through the streets at night, issuing from dance halls. It is a remarkable sort of music even to my unmusical ear. I could not make head nor tail of it. In my opinion, there is nothing in it. How people can stand hours and hours waltzing around a room to that type of music I do not know. If the Minister could see his way at least to consider sympathetically what I have submitted—a subsidy offered by the Government—it would encourage the local bodies to strike a small rate, and probably, as I said before, further assistance would be provided by private subscription. By that means, I think, we would help very considerably not only to advance national culture, but certainly we would help a very deserving type of citizens who are now suffering, to my own knowledge, great privation and who have nobody to speak for them.

Mr. Eamonn O'Neill

"Irish education is an appalling scandal. Language holds no terms by which it can be fittingly described and denounced. It is a crime against the children of the most outrageous and revolting character, inflicting upon them hardships and sufferings of the most wanton description. The outcome is intellectual paralysis. The children are stupefied and lose all their buoyancy and vivacity." Ní liom-sa na focail sin. Cé dubhairt an chaint sin? An tAthair Mícheál Ó hleidhe, beannacht Dé le n-a anam. Dubhairt sé gur éagcoir ar na leanbhaí gan a dteanga féin a labhairt leo ar scoil, ach teanga ná fuil ar colas aea, agus ná tagann as an saghas san oibre ach "intellectual paralysis." Bhí an ceart aige gan aon amhras. Is in aghaidh na héagcóra san a dhein Connradh na Gaedhilge troid go dtí gur eirigh leo sa deire agus gur leogadh do sna múinteoirí teanga na leanbhaí do labhairt leis na leanbhaí. Ach tá an tsean-riail i bhfeidhm arís le deich mbliana, agus tá a rian ar na leanbhaí.

Caitheann na leanbhaí trí bliana i mbuidheanta na naoidheanán, agus fan na haimsire sin níl cead ag an múinteoir focal Béarla a labhairt leo, bíodh ná fuil aea féin ach Béarla agus ná cloisid focal ach Béarla lasmuich den scoil. Is uathbhásach an éagcóir é sin, ar na leanbhaí agus ar na múinteoirí. Ní haon iongna go ndubhairt an tAthair Mícheál Ó hlcidhe nách féidir focail d'fháil chun na héagcóra san do cháine i gceart.

Seo mar a labhair Cigire mar gheall ar thoradh na rialach san, gan a dteanga féin do labhairt leis na leanbhaí sa Ghaeltacht: "They almost invariably forgot whatever English they had learnt at school."

Ach dubhairt an Cigire céanna, nuair a tosnuíodh ar a dteanga féin a labhairt leis na leanbhaí agus Béarla do mhúineadh dhóibh san am gcéanna: "Now they will read and write English well, and they will read and write Irish too."

Is deacair a thuisgint cad 'na thaobh go ndeachaidh an Aireacht siar ar an sean-riail a dhein an oiread san díobhála d'aigne na leanbhaí agus í chur i bhfeidhm arís. Is mithid í chaitheamh ar leathtaoibh.

Isé rud atá uaim-se anois ná Eire do Ghaolú agus is baol liom ná déanfar í do Ghaolú go deó mara ndeinimíd brostú. Tá deich mbliana de mórshaothar caithte againn agus cad tá againn dá bharr? Gan an Ghaedhilg do bheith á labhairt ach ag fíorbheagán dos na leanbhaí nuair a bhíonn siad ag fágaint na scoileanna. Nuair a bhíos ag caint i dtaobh an scéil seo anuiridh do mholas don Aire Comhaltas beag do chur ar bun chun an scéil do bhreithniú féachaint an féidir feabhas a chur ar an ngléas oibre ins na bun-scoileanna agus ins na meán-scoileanna. Molaim do arís anois é, agus ní ceart caol-cheist a chur os cóir an Chomhaltais fé mar atá molta ag an Teachta Séamus Diolúin ach an scéal go léir do phlé: An féidir feabhas do chur ar an ngléas oideachais chun cainteóirí maithe Gaedhilge go dhéanamh de sna leanbhaí ins na bun-scoileanna agus ins na meán-scoileanna? Ní foláir dó an Fo-Choiste sin do chur ar bun gan mhoill.

Tomás O Déirg

Ba mhaith liom fháil amach cathain adubhairt an tAthair Ó hIcidhe é sin. Tá an tAthair Ó hIcidhe marbh le blianta— beannacht Dé le n-a anam—agus is léir don Tigh agus don phobal nách do scéim oideachais an lae indiu a dhéin sé an tagairt sin nuair a bhí sé ann. Ach leig an Teachta air gur dhein an tAthair Ó hIcidhe an tagairt sin don scéim oideachais atá againn anois.

Eamon Ó Néil

Seo iad a fhocla féin agus tabharfad na focla ar fad i gceann tamaill, más maith leis an Aire é. Tá siad ar fáil.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Tá an oiread san cainnte déanta i dtaobh scéala na scoileanna nách maith liom a bheith ag dul siar air ach nuair atá an meastachán so os cóir na Dála is cóir dúinn an cheist do chur: "Conus mar atá obair na Gaedhilge ag dul ar aghaidh?" Sé mo thuairim láidir go bhfuil dualgas thar aon dualgas eile ar an Aire, ar an Aireacht agus ar an Roinn Oideachais—sé sin, an Ghaedhilg do chur in uachtar. Má theipeann air san do dhéanamh is cuma cad eile a déanfaoi le oideachas. Mar adubhairt an Teachta a labhair romham, táthar tar eis deich mbliana do chur isteach ag iarraidh an chuid seo den tír do Ghaolu. Agus conus mar atá ag eirighe linn? Nílim sásta go bhfuil Gaolú na ndaoine óga ag dul ar aghaidh chó maith agus is féidir. Nílim sásta go bhfuil Roinn Oideachtais chó láidir, chó misniúil ná chó fuinniúil ag tabhairt fén obair seo agus ba choir. Creidim gur gá céim ar aghaidh agus molaim don Aire machtnamh do dhéanamh go géar ar an gceist seo. Sé an chéim atá ar aigne agam ná an Béarla do chur amach as na bun-scoileanna sa chuid seo den tír. Ní mhairfidh an dá theángan le chéile. Cathfidh ceann acu bheith in uachtar agus ní mór dúinn féachaint chuige gurb í an Ghaedhilg a bheidh in uachtar. Muna n-éiríonn leis an nGaedhilg sna scoileanna ní eireoidh linn, agus deirim-se go bhfuil an iomad scríbhneoireachta agus an iomad léightheoireachta sna scoileanna agus gan go leor cleachta i labhairt na Gaedhilge.

Nuair a cuireadh an Coimisiún ar bun fén chéad Dáil i dtaobh clár na mbun-scoileanna, do moladh obair i ranganna na naoidheanán do dhéanamh tríd an nGaedhilg. Chuaidh siad siar ar an socrú san tuairim cheithre bliana ó shoin. Bá mhór an dul siar é sin, im thuairim-se. Do réir mar thuigim na rialacha, ní gá ach uair a chluig amháin sa ló do thabhairt d'fhoghluim na Gaedhilge i ranganna na naoidheanán.

Molaim go láidir don Aire dul siar go dtí an socrú a rinne an Coimisiún fén chéad Dáil agus obair na naoidheanán do dhéanamh tríd an nGaedhilg i ngach scoil ina bhfuil na múinteoirí oilte ar an obair do dhéanamh. Tar éis na hoibre atá ar siúl ins na Coláistí Ullmhúcháin agus na Coláistí Oiliúna beidh na múinteoirí oilte chuige sin. Sin é an rud, im thuairimse, atá ag teastáil uainn—céim mhór eile agus iarracht láidir chun an Bhéarla do chur as na scoileanna ar fad. Tá sé sin déanta i gcúpla scoil anso agus ansud 'sa nGalldacht—Scoil Mhuire agus Scoil Cholmcille i mBaile Atha Cliath, cur í geás. Más féidir é sin do dhéanamh í mbliain amháin sna scoileanna seo, agus gan focal Béarla a bheith á labhairt ionta anois, is féidir é do dhéanamh i ngach scoil sa tír ina bhfuil na múinteoirí oilte chuige sin. Ní mór dúinn dul ar aghaidh anois no teipfidh orainn ar fad.

Ba mhaith liom fháil amach an bhfuil socruithe ag an Aire fiosrúchán do chur ar bun maidir le clár na mbun-scoileanna. Tá a fhios agam go maith go bhfuil an iomad abhar ar an gclár agus gur éigin iad do laigheadú má tá ionad ceart le bheith ag an nGaedhilg. Tá súil agam go gcuirfear an fiosrúchán san ar bun chó luath agus is féidir é. Tá áthas orm a chloisint gur deineadh rud fónta maidir le múineadh na Gaedhilge sna meadhon-scoileanna i rith na bliana. Bhí an scéal go scannalach agus tá eagla orm go bhfuil an scéal dona go leor go fóill i gcuid acu. Tá cuid de na Coláistí móra anaghallda agus ní theígheann an Galldachas agus an Gaolachas le chéile. Iarraim ar an Aire féachaint chuige go gcólíonfaidh na Colaistí seo a ndualgas don tír agus don teangain. Cén mhaith na múinteóirí do bheith ag obair sna bun-scoileanna más mar sin atá an scéal sna meadhon-scoileanna— is cuma an scoileanna lae no scoileanna comhnuithe atá i gceist? Níl an scéal chó sásúil sna meadhon-scoileanna agus ba chóir é bheith.

Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil deacracht aun i dtaobh teacs-leabhar agus rudaí eile ach níor chóir aon deacracht do bheith ann i dtaobh labhairt na Gaedhilge do chur ar aghaidh sna scoileanna seo. Agus sin é an rud táchtach. Ní dóich liom go bhfuil go leor aire á thabhairt do labhairt na Gaedhilge sna meadhon-scoileanna, go mór-mór i gcolaistí na mbuachaillí.

Anois, ba mhaith liom tagairt do dhéanamh do scéal na hOllscoile. Chonnach mé sa pháipéar cúpla lá ó shoin go bhfuil rud fónta déanta ag Coláiste Ath Chliath den Ollscoil Náisiúnta fé dheireadh chun an ionad ceart do thabhairt don Ghaedhilg. Más maith, is mithid. Is fada an lá sinn ag plé mar gheall or seo. Tá súil agam go bhfuil an lá tagaithe fé dheireadh agus go mbeidh an Ollscoil náisiúntach i gceart—go dtabharfar ionad ceart do theanga na hEireann. Tá rud fónta déanta acu agus tá súil agam go leanfaidh na Coláistí eile an dea-shompla so. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil dea-obair ar siúl i nGaillimh ach níl go leor á dhéanamh ansan go fóill. Tugadh "Ollscoil Gaedhealach" uirthe ach nilim sásta go bhfuil sí chó-Gaedhealach agus ba chóir. Tá Ollscoil eile sa tír seo agus ba mhaith liom súil an Aire do dhiriú ar an Ollscoil sin—sé sin, an Coláiste ar a dtugtar Coláiste na Tríonóide. Tá cuid mhaith d'airgead na ndaoine ag dul chun an Choláiste sin in aghaidh na bliana, do réir mar thuigim. Tá coinníol ag baint leis an Ollscoil Náisiúnta, ná bhfuil cead ag scoláire dul isteach ann gan dul fé scrúdú i nGaedhilg. Ach níl aon riail mar sin ag baint le Coláiste na Tríonóide. Deirtear go bhfuil an Ghaedhilg á teagasc ansin. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil ach tá a fhios againn go léir gur cuireadh an áit sin ar bun mar dhaingean na nGall agus is mar sin atá sé go dtí an lá iniu. Caithfimíd é sin d'atharú. Chó fada agus tá comhacht ag Aire an Oideachais, tá súil agam go gcuirfidh sé roimhe gan aon chuid d'airgead na ndaoine do chaitheamh chun Gaill bheaga do thógáil sa tír seo. Iarraim ar an Aire scéal an Choláiste sin do bhreithnú agus gan tabhairt don Choláiste sin——

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

An bhfuil aon airgead san meastachán so i gcóir an Choláiste sin?

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Beidh faill agat labhairt ar ball. Ní ceart duit bheith ag cur isteach orm. Tá dluthbhaint idir an cheist seo agus ceist an oideachais.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Ba mhaith liom an cheist seo do chur ort, a Leas-Chinn Chomhairle: An bhfuil aon airgead ar an meastachán so i gcóir Coláiste na Triónóide?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Ní dóich liom go bhfuil.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

An mbaineann an meastachán so leis na hOllscoileanna in aon chor?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Ní bhaineann.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Tá dlúthbhaint idir an cheist seo agus ceist an oideachais.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Ba cheart go mbeadh.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Is iongnadh liom an Teachta Ua Maolchatha d'fheiscint ag cosaint Coláiste na Tríonóide. Is iomdha rud do chosain sé——

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Nílim ag cosaint ruda ar bith. Nílim ach ag cur ceiste ar an Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Ach na rudaí go mba chóir dúinn bheith á gcur fé dhiospóireacht ar an meastachán so, táimíd á seachaint. Tá an Teachta ag seachaint na cainnte sin.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Nílim ag seachaint aon ruda. Pé scéal é, tá súil agam go mbreithneoidh an tAire an scéal so chun fháil amach an féidir é d'fheabhsú. Muna bhfuil an tAire in ann atharú do dhéanamh, tá súil agam go ndéanfaidh an Ard-Chomhairle é, mar is daingean gallda an Coláiste seo.

General Mulcahy

Deputy O'Brien has been——

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Cad 'na thaobh ná labhrann tú as Gaedhilg?

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Nuair atá obair agam. le déanamh, deinim é sa tslí is fearr an obair sin do dhéanamh. Tá obair le déanamh anso.

The Deputy has been grunting ignorant interruptions in English and Irish in the debates here, with his hand in front of his mouth. I do not think that any intrusion of his into the debates was as ignorant as his last intrusion.

Whether it is the general aspect of education or the position of the Irish language in the country, we have a serious subject here, and if people have a mind on the subject they ought to try to think about it. The Deputy has not made the slightest attempt to do so. He treats the Minister and the House to his one demand in the matter of education here—an Béarla do chur amach as na bun scoileanna.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Gan amhras.

General Mulcahy

He wants English swept out of our primary schools.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Gan amhras—i ndiaidh a cheile.

General Mulcahy

The Deputy has been Secretary of the Gaelic League, and in that position, as well as in the position of a person wanting to be regarded as a Gael, wanting to be regarded as standing for an Irish civilisation speaking through the medium of Irish, he has had many a year to look around him and to see what the position is linguistically with regard to the people generally, with regard to the primary schools, and with regard to the children going into them and the teachers who are there. He wants English put out of the primary schools.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Sin é an rud.

General Mulcahy

The Minister devoted a large part of his statement on the introduction of the Estimate to dealing with the position of Irish, and when replying on the Estimate last year he informed the House that out of 422 national schools in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht 41 per cent. were doing their work through the medium of Irish; that out of 756 schools in the Breac-Ghaeltacht only 78, or one per cent., were doing their work through the medium of Irish; and that in the Galltacht 45 out of 4,700, or one per cent., were doing their work through the medium of Irish. Sections of the people in the City of Dublin, rearing their children, so far as they are able in the present circumstances, to be Irish-speaking from the beginning, wanted Irish-speaking schools for their children, and some years ago after some struggle they got a primary school started for children with pre-school Irish. What assistance did the Deputy give to have that school kept to its purpose?

A number of families in the City of Dublin, looking for a school that would give an Irish education to their children from the beginning to the end, succeeded in getting a school started. Was it allowed to continue in the way it ought to continue, at as high a standard as it was possible to have in the school? No. The school was set up to take children who were brought up with pre-school Irish, but members of the Coiste Gnotha, and great Gaels who would not go to the trouble of teaching their children two words of Irish before they went to school, diverted, so far as they could divert, in its earlier years, that school from its purpose, and prevented it from being what it was intended to be, a school entirely for children with pre-school Irish. I am talking of the difficulties that lie in the way of getting education through the medium of Irish in a discussion in which, speaking from the elevation the Deputy speaks from, he asks the people of the country and the Minister to turn English entirely out of the primary schools. (Interruption). I hope I have stung the Deputy into beginning to think about the subject in the same way as he is beginning to ask the Minister, apparently, only to think about doing it. I am speaking of the actual circumstances. Although there were lots of schools in the city, naturally, according to the programme, where the infants were being dealt with through the medium of Irish from the first entrance, nevertheless there were forced on that school, that had an opportunity of showing what standard could be achieved entirely through the medium of Irish in the City of Dublin, children with no Irish. That damped down that standard. You were faced with two difficulties: You had on the one hand a desire on the part of people to send their children to schools where Irish would be the medium of education from the beginning, and where it would continue to the end. You had an insufficiency of teaching power, on the other hand, and the difficulty on the part of the Department of Education of getting teachers so qualified as whole-heartedly to be prepared to throw themselves into that work. The teachers were faced with a temptation that, to some extent, they succumbed to. It was easier, in the circumstances in Dublin, to take the low-grade type of class, to take the children who came in without Irish, and teach them something through the medium of Irish, than it was to start primary schools and continue, step by step, to teach the full programme entirely through the medium of Irish.

I speak of the beginning, because the difficulties and the disabilities that the school laboured under in its early days have been more or less overcome, but only by careful watching. I do not believe they are entirely overcome at present. We succeeded after some time in getting an introductory school set up so as to side-track from both the girls' Irish school and the boy's Irish school, that were afterwards established, children that were not sufficiently advanced in power to use the Irish language in order to prevent the classes being held back for them. There are schools now in the City of Dublin holding out an inducement to people to give their children Irish pre-school and to go steadily through the primary programme, at any rate, entirely through the medium of Irish. But we were not helped by the Deputy and his friends. In the City of Dublin you have these two schools. You have elementary schools for infants feeding into them. I do not believe we have eradicated. even with the wish of the Department of Education to do so, and with a certain amount of pressure to have the thing done properly, the difficulties we would like to eradicate out of the schools.

You have this difficulty at your very door, that there are hundreds of children who are anxious to get into the introductory schools, in connection with the Irish classes in Dublin, and they are not able to get in because of want of accommodation. I cannot understand why accommodation is not provided. I cannot understand why the difficulties of a lot of people who are endeavouring to develop those schools at the moment, in the matter of accommodation, are still left unsolved, considering the many other difficulties in regard to education through the medium of Irish, apart from the question of accommodation, that are lying in front of us. The position throughout the country as a whole, if the Deputy will only look at it, is such as to suggest that there are more constructive points in the situation which the Deputy might have seized upon to develop his thought and to give us help, rather than proceeding along the lines of asking that English be put out of the primary schools.

I asked the Minister here on the last occasion on which the Estimates were under discussion why a separate inspectorate in respect of the Gaeltacht areas could not be organised. I still believe that a separate inspectorate to deal with those Irish-speaking districts pure and simple, whether the pupils are being taught through the medium of Irish or not, that would concentrate its mind on the problem of getting education imparted in the Irish-speaking districts as quickly as possible entirely through the medium of Irish, is absolutely necessary if the tide is not going to drift against Irish in those areas. We had figures given us last year as to the position in regard to parents in Irish-speaking districts who gave Irish originally to their children. You have the position, as the Minister told us in November last, that in the limited area of Irish-speaking districts, where there are 422 national schools, there are only 41 per cent. of them in which the work is done entirely through the medium of Irish. If the Deputy would try to help the Minister in keeping English as the medium of instruction within the 59 per cent. of these schools, he would be doing something worth while. I again submit to the Minister that there is no possible way to deal with the situation in the Irish-speaking districts except by having a group of inspectors who will be definitely regarded as inspectors for the Irish-speaking districts—a separate inspectorate for the Gaeltacht areas.

The Minister shows in his statement the predominant position of the Irish language in the Department of Education, but we are unfortunately in the position while that is so, the saving of the Irish language in this country means more than something purely educational. We are not in a position to know from the Minister, nor do we get any information from any other Department either, as to whether there is any supervision in regard to watching the position in which the Irish language is a living language among the people. There are so many evidences that, in its actual use among the people, the position of the Irish language is not growing stronger that we would welcome more evidence than we get from the Minister that he is extending his view beyond his Department and trying to secure, with the help of his Department, to put himself in a position of responsibility before the House so that he could keep the House systematically informed as to the position of the language throughout the country. At present we have no means of knowing it. We have nothing except our personal visits to the different parts of the country, and these can supply us with that information only very inadequately. We have only these haphazard methods of giving the House any information in regard to the position. Considering the importance of the subject, and considering the amount of money that one would like to spend economically and constructively to ensure that the language is firmly rooted and saved, it is an extraordinary thing, and it is lamentable that, as long as we have been at it, we have invented no machinery that can be held responsible for keeping the situation under review and for keeping the House informed as regards the general position of the language. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-morrow.