Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Apr 1933

Vol. 46 No. 17

Adjournment Debate. - Locations of New Factories.

General Mulcahy

I regret it should be necessary for me to ask the Minister to remain, after his long day on the Railways Bill, to deal with this particular matter. I would not do so if there were any more satisfactory way of dealing with it. The points I want to raise are, in my opinion, vital, and, therefore, I desire to raise them. I would have raised this matter by motion, as the most satisfactory way of dealing with it, both from my own point of view and the point of view of the House, but we go into recess for a fortnight to-morrow and we come back to a very important financial time in which I take it there will be very little Private Members' time and there are already three important Private Members' motions on the Paper. My reason for raising the matter is to let the Minister know what we want in the matter of information dealing with the industrial position and the unemployment position and to endeavour to find out from him what exactly he is prepared to give us. The situation is one in which there is a very strong prima facie case for a very considerable amount of anxiety on our part as to the general position financially and from the point of view of employment. Our anxiety is not allayed in any way by recent statements of the Minister. As far back as 12th May, 1932, when dealing with the Budget, and a suggestion of Deputy Hogan that in eight months' time they would know whether their industrial policy was a success or not, the Minister, as reported in Columns 1676-1677 of the Official Reports, said:—

"Deputy Hogan said that in eight months' time we shall find out whether our policy has been a success or not. I am prepared to accept that. I am prepared to back that policy, and if at the end of that period there are not more people in employment, there are not more industries in the country, there is not greater productivity, and there are not better conditions all round, then I am prepared to admit that this policy is not a success. Eight months is not a long period to undo the damage of one hundred years, but I am prepared to accept it as a test of this policy. I hope particularly that Deputy Morrissey, who has been parading his concern for the unemployed in this House for the past three or four weeks, will give it that eight months' trial."

That was the beginning of it. We had the end of it the other day and, as I say, this is what adds to our interest in the matter. In Column 2026 of the Official Reports of 31st March, after the eight months had passed and the financial year had ended, we find the Minister for Industry and Commerce when dealing with the Economies Bill stating:—

"...this Government came into office to find the country with a declining population—(which was not so)— declining agricultural production —(which was not so)—declining industrial production—(which was not so)—stripped of resources— (which was not so)—stripped of wealth-producing capacity; in the position that, if a check had not been called to the continuous decline, recovery in our day might have been made entirely impossible."

Mr. Lemass

Is that a quotation, including the "not so's?"

General Mulcahy

No. "Not so," can be put in brackets and substantiated by figures in due course. In Column 2034 the Minister, continuing, said:

"The Minister for Agriculture, speaking the other day about the agricultural position, said, in relation to that industry, that he found the country stripped of its wealth."

Starting off in this financial year, we are seriously anxious to know what position the Minister is endeavouring to cover up by his wrong description of the circumstances in which he took over office. In reply to my question to-day, asking for certain information as to where new industries, stated by him to have been started, were located, he endeavoured to draw a political line across the matter. I want the Minister to understand, whether there is a political purpose at the back of it or not, that there is certain information available to him which ought to be made available to everyone interested in watching how things are going. This question did not arise out of any political propaganda in connection with the elections. It first arose out of certain statements made in Kilkenny by the President, and statements made by the Minister in September last. On 27th October I asked, in connection with a large number of industries which the Minister and the President stated had been started, if he would provide certain information. I asked if he would let us know the numbers and the location of the new factories, the classes of goods produced, the amount of capital, whether the factory was native or foreign, and what number of persons were employed, and the answer I got was that the preparation of the return giving the information would involve a considerable amount of time and trouble, and that the Minister would consider laying on the Table of the Dáil a report of the kind indicated in the question.

On the re-assembly of the House on 1st March last, I asked the Minister for the information for which I had asked previously in October, and in connection with which he was considering laying a return before the House. The Minister then referred to his previous answer about the time and trouble involved. I was accepting, in a bona fide way, that the Minister was prepared, some time or another to give the information, although as early as this he dragged the idea of a directory of Irish manufacturers, which was being prepared in his Department, across the question. However, on 8th March, I asked in connection with four new boot factories, which he stated on 16th January had been started during the present Government's term of office, for the names and location of these factories, and I got the names and the location. Subsequently, on 22nd March, I asked for information with regard to seven new furniture factories and four new upholstery factories, and I was told with regard to these that I could get their location and did get their location; that the seven furniture factories were started in Dublin and that three of the upholstery factories were started in Dublin and the fourth in Navan, but that the Minister was not prepared to give the names of the owners until the position of each firm was examined in the light of the Control of Manufactures Act. That is, we were promised we might have the other information when certain examinations had been carried out under the Control of Manufactures Act.

Yesterday I asked the Minister for some further information in regard to new mattress making industries and one or two industries of that nature. I was told that not only would I not get the names of the firms for the same reason previously expressed, but that I could not get the location of them, that it was undesirable, having regard to the interests of the firms concerned and the interests of other firms in the same industries to give that information and that anybody interested in the matter should wait for the new directory which would give a lot of information about Irish manufactures generally. The Minister said that he was in a position to give certain information but he could not go any distance to tell us what information he was prepared to give. When he was asked where the new factory for hay rakes or where the new factory for barbed wire was started he said that he was not prepared to give the information but, when pressed subsequently, in connection with the matter, he thought that as far as the location was concerned, he might give the information and said that if I were to put down a question seeking that information he would endeavour to get it. Again he urged that the various people who are interested in the industrial position should wait for the Directory of Manufacturers so that they could get a complete picture and not a partial picture, arising out of the publication of information of this kind.

When we asked the Minister for information surely we are entitled to refer to some specific thing and the House, in considering the results of the policy which the Minister, on 12th May last, thought of such considerable importance that he more or less staked his political reputation on its bringing about the economic and unemployment salvation of this country inside eight months, is entitled to get information as to the new factories that are set up. I have asked during the last few weeks for additional information. I asked the Minister, supplementary to a question put by Deputy Beckett, for information as to the number of persons in tariffed industries in September, in December and again in March, and the Minister's statement was that no information was collected in September as regards the number of persons in tariffed industries, that no information was collected in December, but he held out some hope that the information would be available for 31st March. Will that information as to the number of persons in tariffed industries on 31st March last be available and when?

The Minister is not in a position to give us the total number of unemployed in the different industrial groups for which figures are supplied quarterly by his Department. The Minister is not in a position to give us the information for 31st December last, that is three months later. As far as the general returns in regard to unemployment are concerned, they are worthless in indicating the general position of the country. The Minister has said that the unemployment position has improved considerably. The most reliable figures that are available, because of present circumstances and because of past circumstances in the City of Dublin, are the Dublin figures. The figures supplied by the Minister show that from the end of January until the day on which the figures were supplied, 12th March last, there has been a reduction of about 9,900 in the total number of persons unemployed, but of these 8,200 are returned from two areas alone out of the seventeen, that is, from the Athlone and the Sligo areas. In the City of Dublin alone, the area as I say where the figures are more reliable because of the circumstances, there has been an increase of 1,000 at a time of the year when normally there should be reduction in the number of unemployed.

Immediately after the Easter recess we shall be approaching consideration of the Budget and I want to persuade the House that very big considerations will be involved in the consideration of that Budget. Are we going to be in the position that we shall have to consider that Budget without any clear indication of the results of the industrial policy of the Government during the last 12 months? Is the Minister going to give us any information or make any case that will persuade the House that he is not, as it were, to hand in his gun, in the way he said he would have to hand it in after eight months, if certain developments did not take place? Can the Minister make any reasonable case why he should not provide the House at this moment as far as new industries are concerned with the figures that were asked for in October last—the location of the industries, the capital involved, the type of ownership, the approximate wages paid and the number of persons employed? Will be put us in the position that we shall have immediately after Easter the total number of persons employed in tariffed industries on 31st March this year? Will he be in a position to give us figures in regard to unemployment in respect of the different industrial groups in respect to which the unemployment figures are collected and available quarterly? What can he give us either in addition to or in substitution of the weekly statements of persons who are said to be unemployed that we are now getting?

He told the House recently that he was having an analysis made of the position on 16th January last. Will we have that analysis of the situation in our hands after Easter before we start to carry on an important discussion in connection with the Budget? All we do know is that the Minister has completely run away, step by step, from giving us any information in regard to the new factories. It is not sufficient to say "I am going to tell you all about Irish industry in a Directory some time." Goodness knows when we shall see the Directory if we are going to have it issued from the Ministry of Industry and Commerce ! I ask the Minister to realise that he is treating a very serious subject very lightly in the present circumstances of the country by facing us simply with the blank wall of "no information" when we are discussing new factories, employment in tariffed industries, and the general position in regard to unemployment.

Mr. Lemass

I suggest to the Deputy that his main anxiety in this matter is that the success which has attended the Government's industrial policy is ruining the political prospects of his Party. It is from that source his anxiety springs. I said eight months ago that I was prepared to accept the challenge thrown out by Deputy Hogan as a fair test, and that was that if at the end of eight months the industrial position was not substantially improved, if there were not more people in employment, if there were not greater industrial activity and better prospects for the future, I would regard our policy as a failure. By that test our policy has been a much greater success than we anticipated. I said the other night that we were left, after ten years of the worst Government ever known by any country, with depleted resources which damaged our wealth-producing capacity.

The Deputy has been talking about a diminution of live stock. I said that we could not export live stock that we had not got, and I pointed out that during the Cumann na nGaedheal period of office the live-stock population of the country had been reduced by 300,000 head. Of course the Deputy will deny that?

General Mulcahy

Yes.

Mr. Lemass

So far as cattle are concerned, the total number in 1922 was 4,375,417; the total number in 1931 was 4,029,084. That shows a difference of 345,000 head of cattle.

General Mulcahy

Will the Minister refer to the position in 1924? Will he compare the position from 1925 to 1932 with regard to cattle in this country and then stand over his argument?

Mr. Lemass

From 1922 to 1924 there was a slight decline in the total number of cattle. Then there was a slight recovery and then they started to go down again. Now, with regard to corn crops, from 1922 to 1931 there has been a decrease of 215,500 acres; in regard to root and green crops there has been a decrease of 89,000 acres; the area under flax has decreased by 4,200 acres and the area under fruit went down by 2,000 acres. During the same period it might be of some interest to the Deputy to learn that the number of geese in the country also seriously diminished. Throughout the whole of the period when Cumann na nGaedheal held office, industrial productivity was stagnant. A number of industries which existed in this country for many decades before the blight of Cumann na nGaedheal rule came upon it, disappeared. In the papers we read week after week during the greater part of that decade of industries going to the wall, of their proprietors seeking the refuge of the bankruptey courts, of their employees lining up seeking whatever work was available and generally finding none.

That situation is changed. The Deputy is trying to create the idea that the statement made by me that, between May of last year and last January, 149 new factories were established, was not correct. It is correct. Every factory and workshop opened in this country must be registered in my Department. There were 303 new workshops registered, of which 149 were registered as factories. In these factories many thousands of people are employed—who would have been idle if the industrial policy of the Government had not been operated and if the laissez faire policy of the previous Government were allowed to continue. We have succeeded in establishing many industries that never before existed in this country. The figure of 149 has been substantially increased since then. If the Deputy looks over the papers for the last week he will not find a single issue which does not report the establishment or the pending establishment of another new factory.

I said I would be prepared to take eight months as a test. That was unfair in a way. I pointed out that it would be difficult to repair in that period the damage done by a century of foreign government and a decade of home misgovernment on the part of Cumann na nGaedheal. I accepted that test, and the policy of this Government has been demonstrated to be capable of producing exactly the results we foretold. The unemployment figures are going down. The Deputy said that no reliance could be placed on those figures, yet during the three weeks of the election campaign he went around arguing on the basis of those figures that unemployment was getting worse. So long as the figures were going up they were reliable, but so long as they showed a tendency the other way, then, according to the Deputy, they could not be relied upon.

The Deputy ignored the fact that a new system of registration had been brought into operation and that the whole method of computation of the figures had been changed. We had the figure of 72,000 additional unemployed placarded on the walls during the election and shouted off every Cumann na nGaedheal platform. When the figures no longer suited the purpose of Cumann na nGaedheal, they endeavoured to discredit their accuracy. They relied upon the figures during the election period. Why run away from these figures now? They cannot have it every way. Apparently when the figures happened to support their contentions they were looked upon as unquestionably accurate; as soon as they went against them, their accuracy must be questioned.

I gave what I considered to be a satisfactory reason why the piece-meal information which the Deputy has asked for should not be given. Apart from any other consideration, the additional work which it involves in my Department is considerable. My Department is heavily worked. The work which is pouring in upon it in consequence of the Government's industrial policy is so heavy that a very substantial increase in staff had to be made last year. I do not want to take members of the staff from the constructive work they are doing in order to compile statistics to satisfy the Deputy's curiosity, or assist in removing his political doubts. We are preparing a directory of Irish factories. The number is increasing so rapidly that the directory will be almost out of date by the time it is published. However, we are going to do it. The necessary steps have been taken and the necessary information collected and that directory will give a clear picture in respect of the position in each of the industries.

Let Deputies look at the trade and shipping returns. We have reached in respect of clothing, apart from boots and shoes, almost to the position that we are supplying the whole of our home requirements. In regard to hosiery, underclothing, ready-made clothing and outdoor garments we have more than doubled production and, incidentally, employment. In the case of boots and shoes we have done the same thing, doubled production. At this moment there is not a boot factory in the country that is not installing machinery and planning to increase production this year. We are making a start with one particular item of apparel, men's felt hats. By the end of this year we will be in a position to supply half our requirements of that commodity. In the matter of woodwork considerable development has been undertaken. The production of builders' woodwork, packing cases and the various articles of wood required in different industries is being substantially developed and the number of persons employed—they are all adult men, which makes that industry all the more valuable—is also increased.

We have developed the foundry industry. If the Deputy will inquire in his own constituency he will get some idea of the development that has been made in that industry. He will find there firms that have doubled their employment and output within the last eight months. The position that we have created is that this is probably the only country in the world of which it can be said that our major economic problem is one of under-production. Every other country is complaining of over-production and is trying to devise ways and means by which the surplus products of the different factories can be brought into consumption. That is not our problem. We have day after day Irish factories working overtime and yet unable to supply the demand. We have that situation in relation to slates and building materials and other commodities of various kinds.

The only thing that is required in order to complete the job is the investment of additional capital, the affording of the necessary assistance by the Government, and silence on the part of the Deputies opposite who have been endeavouring at all times to create doubts and a feeling of instability and insecurity which would wreck the whole thing. They have not succeeded. We gave them an opportunity of finding out to what extent they had succeeded and they learned a lesson. The wisest course for them to adopt is to remain silent on this matter and let the Government get on with its job.

The Dáil rose at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 7th April.