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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 May 1933

Vol. 47 No. 5

Promotion of Pig Production.

I move:—

Go bhfuil sé oriúnach binse do bhunú chun fiosruithe do dhéanamh i dtaobh ní áirithe go bhfuil práinn agus tácht phuiblí ag baint leis, sé sin le rá:—

(1) an staid ina bhfuil an scéal fé láthair maidir le muca do thógaint i Saorstát Eireann agus maidir leis na tionnscail agus na ceárda bhaineann le muca beo, feoil mhuice, úr no leasuithe, agus torthaí eile muice;

(2) na nithe is gá chun cabhruithe le tógaint muc chó mór feabhas agus chó líonmhar san go mbeidh oiread díobh ann i gcomhnaí agus a theastóidh i gcóir an mhargaidh sa bhaile agus fós is gá i gcóir easportála agus, san am gcéanna, go mbeidh brabús fónta le fáil do ghnáth ag lucht muc do thógaint agus acu súd a bhíonn ag deighleáil le feoil mhuice agus torthaí eile muice;

(3) molta, chun athchóirithe do dhéanamh ar thionnscal na muc do thógaint agus an bhagúin do leasú, a chuirfidh Uachtarán na hArd-Chomhairle fé bhráid an bhinse chun a mbreithnithe;

(4) ag féachaint do leas an naisiúin, na nithe be cheart do dheanamh—

(a) chun daoine do spriocadh chun muc do thógaint de shaghas agus de cháilíocht a bheidh oiriúnach agus ionannach i gcóir ceárd an bhagúin agus na muicfheola,

(b) chun a chur in usacht muca bheidh le caitheamh sa bhaile no le heasportáil do chur ar an margadh agus chun san do rialáil sa tslí is fearr,

(c) chun a chur in áirithe, i slí ina mbeidh brabús fónta as, go dtáirgfear bagún agus déantúisí eile de thorthaí muice chó mór feabhas agus is gá i gcóir na margaí i mbaile agus i gcéin.

(d) chun rialáil do réir sláinteolais do dhéanamh ar an gcuma ina ndeintear muca do thógaint agus ar an iniúchadh dheineann máinleagha beithíoch roimh bhás agus tar éis bháis ar mhuca marbhuíotar chun bagúin agus muicfheola do chur ar fáil do sna margaí i mbaile agus i gcéin;

(5) conus ba cheart easportáil muca bco, bagúin agus muicfheola do stiúradh, ag féachaint do sna nithe do rinneadh no déanfar chun caindíochtaí na n-earraí sin ar mhargaí i gcéin do rialáil;

(6) éinní is dóich leis an mbinse bhaineann le leas tionnscail na muc agus an bhagúin;

(7) an córas riaracháin is gá chun molta an bhinse do chur i bhfeidhm.

That it is expedient that a tribunal be established for the purpose of enquiring into a definite matter of urgent public importance, that is to say:—

(1) the present position of pig production in Saorstát Eireann and of the industries and trades dealing with live pigs, pig meat, whether fresh or cured, and other pig products;

(2) the measures requisite to promote the production of pigs of the quality and in numbers calculated to ensure the maintenance of output at a point which will supply, constantly, the demand of the home market and provide for the requirements of the export trade while giving a steady economic return to producers of pigs and those engaged in the handling of pig meats and other pig products;

(3) proposals for the reorganisation of the pig raising and bacon-curing industry which may be referred to the tribunal by the President of the Executive Council for consideration;

(4) the measures which, having regard to the national interests, should be taken to—

(a) encourage the production of pigs of suitable and uniform type and quality for the bacon and pork trades.

(b) facilitate and regulate in the most efficient manner the marketing of pigs intended for home consumption, or for export,

(c) ensure the economic production of bacon and other manufactured pig products of a quality suited to the needs of the home and export markets,

(d) regulate hygienically the conditions under which pig husbandry is carried on and the veterinary inspection ante and post mortem of pigs slaughtered for the home and export bacon and pork trades;

(5) the manner in which the exports of live pigs, bacon and pork should be controlled in view of the measures which have been or may be adopted for regulating quantitatively supplies of these commodities on extern markets;

(6) any matter which, in the opinion of the tribunal, affects the welfare of the pig and bacon industry;

(7) the administrative machinery necessary to give effect to the tribunal's recommendations.

This resolution is introduced for the purpose of setting up a tribunal to examine into the whole pig and bacon industry. For the last nine months, we have had frequent discussions with those interested in the pig industry— curers, wholesalers and producers. All those interested in the industry feel that something should be done to improve matters with regard, particularly, to stabilisation of prices. These discussions have gone on for a long time and a number of suggestions have been put up to deal with the problem. The difficulty is to get a competent body to examine these different suggestions and to find out what are the implications and what are the advantages and disadvantages likely to arise from adopting any one of them. It is quite obvious that in a complicated matter of this kind the Minister himself would not be a judge. The Department officials also feel that before any conclusion could be come to additional information would be necessary from those concerned— curers, wholesalers, retailers, producers and others. The only way in which that information can be got is by means of a tribunal set up in this way. This tribunal could have the same status as say the Tariff Commission, and would be in the position of sending for witnesses and compelling them, if necessary, to produce documents. Owing to low world prices for some time the difficulties of the pig producer have been very serious. Unless we can get a reasonable price for the producer we cannot hope to have a steady supply of bacon on the market. As Deputies are aware there are various outlets for pigs in this country, the biggest outlet, of course, both now and for some time, being the home market. That is to say, we have consumed at home at any rate for the last five or six years, practically two-thirds of our total output. We have then an outlet for bacon, pork, and live pigs without dealing with the question of bacon, which requires a great deal of minute examination of details, to find out what would be the effect of dealing with bacon, in a certain way, on the fresh pork market, and on the export of live pigs, as well as on the home prices of bacon. If by any chance the quota system comes in on foreign markets— and it has come on many foreign markets—and if it should come on the British market amongst others, possibly we would be limited in the amount of bacon that could be exported. The question then arises whether we could get rid of our live pigs without putting them through the process of bacon, or get rid of them in the form of pork. Taking the difficulties that arise and everything into consideration, schemes that have appeared good to me might not on minute examination turn out to be the best for the producers. I have come to the conclusion that the only way to deal properly with the matter is to set up a statutory tribunal that can examine witnesses, and call for the necessary evidence, in order to have everything sifted out. The tribunal now being set up will of course report and the report will be examined by the Department of Agriculture and the Minister and eventually I suppose by the Government. If they think well the proposals will probably at that stage be laid before the Dáil for its consideration, In appointing this tribunal we are not committed to any policy in the matter whatsoever. The only thing we are asking the leave of the Dáil and the Seanad for is the tribunal to be set up to examine the question. As soon as it is examined and the report presented it is then for the Government to make up their mind what action will be taken. I do not think we have power at present to deal with it in an adequate way. The only power we have is to pay bounties and things like that. If the question has to be dealt with in a big way we shall have of course to come back to the Dáil again.

This motion as tabled states:

That it is expedient that a tribunal be established for the purpose of enquiring into a definite matter of urgent public importance.

At the outset I should ask in reference to this motion where is the urgency? The conditions which the Minister tried to emphasise have been with us for a length of time, and there is at this moment no more urgency than existed for the motion at any time during the last 12 or 15 months, if it is necessary at all. To most of us, interested mainly in agriculture, this motion is absolutely unnecessary. Practically every section of it could be provided for very easily in a very simple manner and by a very obvious course. The great hamper to this industry is as it is to other branches of the agricultural industry that at the moment you have practically the only export market closed. If that market is restored to its original extent the difficulties that the Minister hopes to lessen by the motion will be provided for—perhaps not all, but practically all. If there is any urgency for any motion in regard to the pig industry or in regard to any other branch of the agricultural industry, the urgency lies in a settlement of the economic dispute, as far as it appertains to agriculture, and it appertains mainly to agriculture. Speaking in this House a few nights ago the Minister said that he was about to sell some pigs and that he expected to make a profit. I hope he did.

Dr. Ryan

I did and a good profit.

I hope the Minister will give particulars of the items of the profit—not the profit on a temporary lot of pigs, but items showing his activities in the pig industry for the past 12 months——

Dr. Ryan

For the last 12 years would be much more interesting.

——the full facts and figures of all sales and purchases of pigs. If the Minister can satisfy himself and satisfy the House and, above all, if he can satisfy the ordinary farmers that, on the whole, there was a profit from pigs during the last eight or nine months and that there is a prospect of a continuing profit then any motion such as this will be unnecessary to persuade farmers to develop the pig industry or encourage them to go in for extra production. The Minister stated that something might be done to stabilise prices. Again I suggest that the first "something" that might be done in that respect would be to give us some hope of a return of a free market as far as the export portion of our pig trade is concerned.

The Minister says that he could not be a judge in such a complicated matter as this. The Minister, who has himself declared that he can make a profit out of pigs, is incompetent to be a judge in relation to this matter. His officials apparently are incompetent to be judges in this matter. Are we to be told that the Department of Agriculture has not amongst its officials some particular official, able and intelligent enough, and with experience enough to advise the farmers as to what particular breed of pigs would be suitable in particular districts, and as to the various other manipulations in this industry? It is suggested that the only remedy is to set up a commission. It is not said whether the members of the commission are to be paid or unpaid. Is it to be a paid commission? Are the members of the commission to be paid? I get no answer to that question. If they are to be paid I say it is extraordinarily unjust to inflict a fresh burden which is wholly unnecessary upon the community. I hope the contemplated tribunal is to be an unpaid tribunal, at any rate if the members are to be unpaid we will be saved the additional amount of extra expense of what I might call this very ill-advised proposal. But even if they are to be volunteers this commission still is unnecessary.

We are told in this motion that the present position in pig production in Saorstát Eireann and of the industries and trades dealing with live pigs and other pig products is to be inquired into. The tribunal is to go into all that. Is there no official of the Department who could make these inquiries? I could name several who would be quite competent to offer the Minister some information upon these points. In paragraph (2) we are told that they are to inquire into the measures requisite to promote the production of pigs of the quality and the numbers calculated to ensure the maintenance of output and provide for the requirements of the export trade. They are to provide for the requirements of an export trade which, at the moment, the Ministry itself are doing their very best to extinguish.

They might send the exports to Denmark.

We are to set up a tribunal to inquire into the requirements of the export trade, which is almost non-existent and cannot return to prosperity until the Minister takes the obvious course necessary.

What is that course?

Surrender.

The Minister knows what the course is. They are to inquire into measures in connection with the export trade that will give a steady economic return to the producers of pigs. Was there ever such a quip or such a piece of nonsense talked considering the present situation? Coming to item (3) we are told that they are to inquire into proposals for the reorganisation of the pig-raising and bacon-curing industry. They are to reorganise the bacon industry. They are going to tell the people engaged in this business all their lives how they are to run it. They are to inquire under (4) into the measures which, having regard to the national interests, should be taken to (a) encourage the production of pigs of suitable and uniform type. We get great encouragement, no doubt, to increase the production of pigs. Every farmer north, south, east and west knows the encouragement he has received for the production of pigs. Are we to have a tribunal to advise the Ministry to continue this business? They are to facilitate and regulate in the most efficient manner the marketing of pigs intended for home consumption or for export; to ensure the economic production of bacon and other manufactured pig products of a quality suited to the need of the home and export market. I am not assuming, and I do not think that the Minister has assumed, that the reputable bacon manufacturers in this country have not all these considerations in view or that they are not making the necessary attempts to provide the quality of bacon suitable for home and export consumption. It ought to be within the knowledge of the Minister and apparent to his intelligence that the bacon factories in this country have put upon the British market the highest quality of bacon of any country, yet it is to be open to this tribunal to tell the bacon factors in Limerick, Waterford and other places how to produce bacon. They are to regulate hygienically the conditions under which pig husbandry is to be carried on and the veterinary inspection ante and post mortem of pigs slaughtered for the home and export bacon trades. We are to have some sort of persons perambulating into the farmers' byres to see the conditions of the pigs, the way they are fed and housed, how warm they are in winter and how cold in summer, and, eventually, the manner in which they are driven to market and finally killed. There is a provision in a recent Act that provides that nothing but good meat shall be sold for consumption, and I think that is as far as we can go.

Dr. Ryan

What Act is that?

The Public Health Act.

There are in Limerick, Cork and Waterford veterinary inspectors who inspect pigs.

Dr. Ryan

For bacon? I have not heard of it.

Yes. It is well known that several veterinary surgeons examine pigs in the factories.

They examine what is going out for export but not for home consumption.

Mr. Kelly

We were getting them from China until some months ago.

Then we come to Item No. 5 in the motion which says that they are to inquire into the manner in which the export of live pigs, bacon and pork should be controlled in view of the measures which have been or may be adopted for regulating quantitatively supplies of these commodities on extern markets.

They are pretty well regulated already now.

Does the Minister consider that we are devoid of all sense of humour on this side of the House, that we can stand any quip in the exasperated conditions under which we are functioning? Exports must in future be controlled. I suggest they are already controlled by the 40 per cent. imposition in the shape of British taxes which the Minister might make some attempt to alleviate.

Dr. Ryan

By surrender.

If the Minister prefers the word "surrender" he can use it. I am not using the word "surrender." I do not even attempt to suggest that negotiation is surrender.

Statesmanship would do it, I think.

If the Minister wishes to make a new dictionary, he is perfectly free to do so as far as I am concerned. We on this side of the House do not wish to associate negotiation with surrender. The bravest generals often have been cowards enough—if the Minister prefers the word—to negotiate. There is no shame or no want of courage in negotiating, and if one has a good case and a strong case then one should not be afraid to negotiate. I venture to say that if this question were taken out of the hands of the Minister, or even out of the hands of the Opposition, and it were left in the hands of three or four intelligent farmers to go over and settle the economic question, they would settle it.

And there would be no surrender.

And there would be no surrender. It is not by means such as these, designed to cover up the folly of the Minister, to cover up the position in which he has not alone put the pig industry but every other branch of agriculture in this country, that he is going to help agriculture. This is another attempt to put wool in the ears and blind the eyes of the unfortunate people whom the Minister has trodden on, and whom every member of the Government Front Bench is assisting him to tread on. There is no necessity whatsoever for this motion. It is an insult to the ordinary farmer.

It is eyewash.

Perhaps, as Deputy Belton suggests, eyewash should be the name for it. It is eyewash of the worst form. I hope that intelligent farmers, even on the Government Benches, will see the folly of such a motion, which I am loath to think is brought forward seriously. I hope this House will reject the motion, and that some sanity may return, eventually, if not to the Minister for Agriculture——

Dr. Ryan

To the speaker.

——to the Leader of the Government Party, and lead him to engage in what members of the Government call surrender, but what we call negotiation, which may at any moment be undertaken with very good hopes of success.

With reference to this motion, I wish to say that it is bad enough to be murdered, but it is monstrous to be afterwards asked to appoint the coroner to enquire into the cause of your own death. In the name of Caitlin Ni Houlihan, and the impeccable patriotism of Fianna Fáil, it is legitimate to do many monstrous things, but I fancy that this is the straw that will break the camel's back —that will break the backs of many farmers in this country. When the Government makes a fool of itself and gets into deep water it has to find some stalking horse. If it cannot find a stalking horse, it sets up a commission to enquire into the fortuitous circumstances that have produced the deplorable situation such as that with which we find ourselves face to face at present, the fact being that the studied policy of the Government was largely instrumental in bringing about the situation.

A Deputy

Altogether responsible.

I do not want to overstate a good case. I know the bacon and pork business from both ends.

Dr. Ryan

Like everything else.

The Minister for Agriculture unblushingly gets up in this House and admits that he knows nothing about it. That is presumably why he was appointed to the place where he now sits. I am not ashamed to confess that I have to raise pigs to earn my livelihood.

Dr. Ryan

So do I.

And they pay you well.

Before I start a business for the purpose of earning my livelihood I try to find out something about it. The Minister apparently does not. I am also interested in a newly started factory for the production of bacon in this country, and before I interested myself in it I took steps to find out something about it.

Dr. Ryan

How do you find time to know so much?

Because unlike some of the members sitting on those benches I do not like to take a salary for doing work I do not understand.

Dr. Ryan

But you understand everything that comes up!

The Minister said this evening that the greater part of the bacon manufactured in this country during the last ten years, I think, was consumed in the country. I should be very much obliged to the Minister if, in winding up the debate, he would be able to furnish us with the figures, say for the last five years, of bacon production and Irish bacon consumption within the country. I should be very glad to know from the Minister what proportion of the pigs raised in this country were consumed in this country. I listened attentively to the Minister when he was introducing this resolution, and I think I do him no substantial injustice when I say that the only pretence at justification for this resolution was his own ignorance and the danger of Great Britain introducing the quota system. A few weeks' patient study could correct the first shortcoming. Surely the Minister will welcome the second as a mark of our Republican sovereignty. It will proclaim before the world, and in the ears of the patriotic pig farmers of this country, that at last we have gained a true Republican status; that our pigs are going to be dealt with as Danish pigs are dealt with; that our agricultural industry is going to be no longer humiliated by being allowed to operate freely in the British market; that it will in future go forth with the quota badge on its back, as a real independent Republican industry that does not bow the knee to anybody. Let us deal with this resolution paragraph by paragraph.

I wish it were half-past ten.

I can quite understand that Deputy Kelly is not profoundly interested in the pig industry. He has no reason to be. He would not know one end of a pig from the other if he saw it. If he is not interested in pigs he is interested in many other things, and has done valuable public service. When he is speaking about matters in which he is intimately concerned, and I am not, I do not bemoan his eloquence. I expect a similar courtesy from him.

Mr. Kelly

I am not bemoaning your eloquence at all. I am only wishing it were half-past ten.

I suggest that we leave the jocularity of the Fianna Fáil Party on one side for a moment, and deal with the somewhat tragic facts that this Bill reveals. The first term of reference for this commission will be to investigate "the present position of pig production in Saorstát Eireann and of the industries and trades dealing with live pigs, pig meat, whether fresh or cured, and other pig products." Does not the veriest fool in any district in the country know what the present position of the pig industry is? Does not the veriest fool know the reason for the condition in which the pig industry is? The pig industry is in a catastrophic condition. It is practically wiped out. Now I suggested that Fianna Fáil drops its facetious tone in regard to this matter. There is nothing funny about it. Those who are not hurt by this can afford to laugh, but those whose livelihoods are being taken away by it cannot. The pig industry in this country is reduced to the condition in which we at present find it because we are embroiled in an economic war, because the market for our surplus of pig products is virtually closed against us by a heavy tariff.

The second term of reference reads:—

The measures requisite to promote the production of pigs of the quality and in numbers calculated to ensure the maintenance of output at a point which will supply, constantly, the demand of the home market and provide for the requirements of the export trade while giving a steady economic return to producers of pigs and those engaged in the handling of pig meats and other pig products.

That paragraph has very little meaning, but such meaning as it has is vitiated by folly, because anyone who knows or understands the elements of the trade must realise that the moment we have a surplus production—a production over and above our domestic requirements—we are dependent on the foreign markets for the prices that will rule right through the pig production of the country. It does not matter what commission is set up here or what restrictions you put in force. The moment you put that surplus on the markets of the world you have got this problem of competition in whatever market you are seeking to go into. All you can hope to do, all any sensible man will try to do, is to get as wide a foreign market for his surplus products as he possibly can and make concessions, economic concessions, to get other concessions, just as Denmark is doing, just as Holland is doing, just as every other sensible country in the world is trying to do in order to secure that the highest possible level of prices will be maintained in the foreign market for its surplus. That is the only way, the only effective way, to keep up the price in the home market.

Paragraph (3) provides that the President of the Executive Council shall be brought into the discussion and shall be vouchsafed an opportunity of passing judgment on what is expedient for promoting the interests of the pig industry of this country. President de Valera has many virtues and great distinction, but I have yet to see him in face of a pig or a flitch of bacon, and if I heard him giving an opinion on either I cannot pretend that his opinion would enjoy any measure of my respect.

He knows a pig, all right.

The Deputy invites some uncivil retort from me, but in deference to you, a Leas-Chinn Comhairle, I propose to exercise forbearance.

I would let him have it, if I were you.

It is an interesting thing to notice that whenever we proceed to get down to the real results of the Fianna Fáil policy on the interests of the farming community in this country, the stock jokers of the Fianna Fáil Party are summoned in from the Lobby, one after another. The feeble jesters of the patriotic Party, the buffoons of the Party of integrity in Ireland, are produced for the purpose of raising a laugh, and the reason they want to raise a laugh is because they want to forget facts. One of the great virtues of a buffoon is that he has a hide like a rhinoceros. The more you display his imbecility the more imbecile he delights in becoming.

Dr. Ryan

Hear, hear!

In this connection the buffoons are due to fall. Paragraph (4) has the rather ominous introduction that certain steps are going to be taken, "having regard to the national interests." I can well think that before this debate is finished we shall be accused of sabotaging the economic policy of the progressive Fianna Fáil Party.

Traitors to the pigs!

We shall be charged with stabbing Caitlin Ni Houlihan in the back, putting obstacles in the way of our patriotic President, who is trying to restore prosperity to our downtrodden people. No matter what attitude is being taken up in regard to this matter, unless it be one of unqualified admiration, these charges will be made. It is well to anticipate them so that we may recognise them when they arise. Sub-paragraph (b) provides that the Government is going to inquire into the best methods for facilitating and regulating in the most efficient manner the marketing of pigs intended for home consumption or for export. I can tell the Government without any inquiry that the best way to facilitate this operation is to get out of the way and to let those who have been doing it and who were doing it successfully until the Government got in the way, go on doing it.

So far as regulation is concerned, I think the record of Fianna Fáil in the matter of the regulation of industry in this country, whether it be agriculture or any other branch of industry, is quite sufficient to warn the farmers against inviting them to regulate any part of their industry. The effect of their regulation of the flour industry so far has been to increase the price of flour from 4/- to 5/- per sack. The effect of their regulation of Indian meal under the Cereals Bill has been to increase the price of Indian meal by 1/- per cwt. for the farmers. The effect of their operation and control of the cement industry under the Cement Bill will be to raise the price of cement from 20 to 50 per cent. on farmers who use it and on poor people who are waiting for houses and who cannot get them because money is so scarce. If, after that record, the farmers are thirsting for more regulation at the hands of a benevolent Minister for Industry and Commerce, then the farmers are madder than I took them to be.

The next is a strangely typical subsection, just what one would expect from a Minister who knows nothing about the pig industry. He proposes to ensure "the economic production of bacon and other manufactured pig products of a quality suited to the needs of the home and export markets." I leave him to his hopes. He is undertaking to ensure something that wiser men than he never attempted to guarantee.

Any man who attempts to make such a guarantee shows by the attempt his incapacity. Sub-paragraph (d), however, is the jewel of this motion. It is really delicious—"To regulate hygienically the conditions under which pig husbandry is to be carried on". One can picture the drawing-rooms and the boudoirs and the beauty parlours that will be provided for the pigs.

And the Turkish baths.

One can picture the Minister's anxiety lest the pigs go to market with their hands unwashed and one can picture his despair because the curl in some particular pig's tail has not got the spring and the coils it should have.

And the permanent wave.

It really makes one despair when one thinks of a responsible Minister, in the knowledge that we have, and that the ought to have, of the conditions under which the pig production of this country has been carried on during the last seven or eight years, alleging by implication in a section of this kind that there is any real necessity for hygienic reform in the breeding of pigs. That is the kind of academic, impractical, departmental folly that characterises every commission of this kind—the impractical, silly desire to meddle in your neighbour's business, to get authority to go poking into your neighbour's backyard and trying into your neighbour's affairs, and the readiness to waste time and public money for the purpose of making unnecessary and oppressive inquiries into the way the ordinary citizen is carrying on his everyday avocation.

In the latter half of that, the Minister proposes to investigate the veterinary inspection, ante and postmortem, of pigs slaughtered for the home and export bacon and pork trade. I understood that he had ample powers under the Public Health Acts to require any examination to be made.

Dr. Ryan

For a wonder, the Deputy is wrong. It is rather surprising, but the Deputy is wrong. It is one thing he did not know.

The Minister requires a commission to ascertain whether he should have power to inquire into the question as to whether any given pork is fit for human consumption or not. Surely, if the Minister believes, or if there is any ground for believing or suspecting, that there is any danger whatever of pork or bacon finding its way into the hands of the public in a condition unfit for human consumption, he does not require a commission to tell him that he should seek powers to take precautions against that, or does he require a commission to tell him even that about his job? Surely the Minister knows something about the duties that ordinarily devolve on a Minister for Agriculture?

Section 5 deals with this quota that the Minister apprehends. I have already referred to that but Section 6 is strangely characteristic of many measures that have been introduced into this House by the Fianna Fáil Administration. We are accustomed to long schedules of things to be regulated, of things to be controlled, of things to be brought within the scope of a particular Bill and, at the end of nearly all these schedules, we find a line "And any other matter which the Minister may schedule as coming under the control of this Bill." With a fine display of desiring to go no further than necessity demands, a schedule is introduced, but a saving clause is put in to allow the Minister to go as far as he wants, once the legislation is passed into law. True to form, under sub-section (6), having set out on a full page of the Order Paper all the subjects the Minister proposes to deal with, he says that, therefore, he should deal with any matter which, in the opinion of the tribunal, affects the welfare of the pig and bacon industry, so that, in fact, if this commission be set up, it will have power to survey the whole condition of agricultural life in this country, it will have power to investigate, in any way it pleases and to any extent it pleases, the whole business of bacon curing and pork production in this country. In fact, it may be said that, if this tribunal is set up under these terms of reference, it can sit forever and examine anything.

Section 7 is perhaps the most dangerous thing of all. We have established that, under Section 6, there is no limit to the extravagances which this commission may commit. The scope of its excursions over the whole plane of Irish agricultural life is practically unlimited and, for the purpose of prosecuting whatever regulations it chooses to make, it is going to be authorised to recommend, as necessary to the Minister, any administrative machinery he wants. Deputy Bennett very relevantly inquired, and the Minister was significantly dumb when he heard the inquiry, whether this is going to be a voluntary commission or whether it is going to be another repository for crocks. The Minister did not answer that question and I invite him now——

Dr. Ryan

I mean to answer.

Perhaps the Minister would assist the House in carrying on the discussion if he would let them know.

Dr. Ryan

If I thought I would cut the Deputy short, I should like to do so. The tribunal will consist of civil servants.

Civil servants to advise on pig production! That is the absolute limit, anyway.

I think the Minister will forgive us if we were in some doubt as to his intentions——

That is what the Minister gets for being polite. Do not be polite any more.

Dr. Ryan

I cannot help it.

I trust that the Minister has had nothing but the same thing from me. The Minister said, when introducing this, that the Department's officials are satisfied that additional information is required and that they would want the assistance of the manufacturers, wholesalers, retailers and consumers.

Dr. Ryan

By way of evidence, I said that.

By way of evidence. I beg the Minister's pardon. I understood that this tribunal was to have on it, as most such tribunals or commissions have, representatives of the various interests with which it is proposed to deal. The Minister will remember that on the Shops Commission and other similar commissions the various interests going to be affected by the findings of the commission have had representation. The Minister will excuse us if we fell into the natural error of thinking that the constitution of this tribunal would be similar. Now the Minister says the members of the tribunal will be civil servants. I should like to draw the attention of the House to this fact, that if the constitution of this tribunal be what the Minister says it will, it will have power to subpoena witnesses on oath and so on.

Dr. Ryan

Quite right.

We are to have this tribunal and, presumably, have on it civil servants of high standing and of wide experience. I should like to know who is going to do the work of these civil servants while they are engaged for this purpose. If the task set out in these terms of reference is really to be effectively dealt with—and if I know the officials of the Department of Industry and Commerce, if they are set a job they will do it, and do it well and do it thoroughly according to the terms of reference— if such men are set a job of this kind, it will take them a very long time to do it and, while engaged on what I can only describe as tomfoolery, somebody else must do their work in their own department. The same will apply to the officials of the Department of Agriculture. Certain officials are qualified for special departments of the work, so that while we have the good men wasting their time on this rubbish, comparatively inexperienced men in the Department of Agriculture will be trying to do work which they are not fit to do.

Dr. Ryan

We have no such men in our Department.

I am not saying that a man is not experienced in his own particular line, but I think it will be admitted that if you take the most experienced man in, say, the egg and poultry division and put him in charge of the cattle division, he cannot deal with cattle problems with the same efficiency as with eggs and poultry. The same would apply to a man in the seeds department, if he is transferred to another department, with which he is comparatively unacquainted. He cannot do the work with the same efficiency. No matter how brilliant he may be in his own particular division, he cannot do the work as well as the man experienced in the other division. You have got to take men who will command public confidence as members of your tribunal and that means that other men will have to do their jobs in their own department. As a consequence, the jobs will not be as well done, but the people will have to pay extra officers to do their jobs as a result of this transfer.

The second source of expense is that administrative machinery is going to be set up to carry into effect the proposals of this tribunal. Who is going to pay for this administrative machinery? I invite the Government to remember that, at the present time, in the name of national emergency, they have asked this Dáil to reduce the salaries of the great majority of the civil servants.

Dr. Ryan

Ten per cent. of the civil servants.

Ten per cent. of civil servants?

Dr. Ryan

About that.

Perhaps I should have said public servants. We are told that the country has been reduced to such a state of bankruptcy and misery that, if disaster is to be averted, drastic economies must be effected, and the first step we take to effect that is to cut the salaries of public servants, while at the same time, we are being asked to set up a tribunal for the purpose of creating jobs for another host of officials. Is it not far better to pay the men we have as generous wages as possible instead of lowering their wages, and setting up another host of officials?

Dr. Ryan

There is no new appointment here.

Of course, not here— because the Minister would not have the effrontery to tell the Dáil frankly that there was going to be. Is the administrative machinery in this Bill a traction engine or a tractor?

Dr. Ryan

I do not think the Deputy understands the matter properly. We are not debating that now.

Is not the whole object here to create regulations for the hygienic upbringing of young pigs? Section 7 lays down that, in the event of endeavouring to improve the hygiene of young pigs administrative machinery is to be set up to that end. How are any of the reforms to be carried into effect if there is no administrative machinery to put them into effect?

Dr. Ryan

There may not be any administrative machinery.

I can quite understand that the Minister could not, in conscience, allege that there were at this stage. He could not possibly make a public gesture of economising by reducing the salaries of public servants and at the same time, like the Minister for Industry and Commerce, create a new host of officials.

Dr. Ryan

I am doing it every day also.

Well, I can well believe it. But, if the Minister is creating a host of new employees, as he here admits he is doing, it is an admission of which he ought to be ashamed, and there is not a Deputy on those benches that dare come down and admit that to his constituents. If any of the Deputies on those benches admitted it to his constituents, he would be hunted from his constituency.

The Minister did not say any such thing.

Now the Minister is hearing the voice of prudence from the back benches. When the back benchers are going down to Athenry or Clare, or their various constituencies, they will have to face the people.

Come down yourself and expound your Centre Party ideas, if you have them.

I am prepared to debate with the Deputy in Athenry or any other town.

Well, there is an invitation for you, and it will cost you nothing.

I trust the Deputy will test the feelings of the people of Athenry on the question of creating a new host of officials.

(Interruptions).

Deputies must cease interrupting.

We have only two minutes to suffer.

I may say that whenever the Deputies on those benches are hard pressed by unpleasant facts they either take to buffoonery or interruptions.

The Deputy said that before.

It is not the first time, and before I have finished they shall probably do it again.

The people of this country are suffering under grievous burdens at the present time. The industry which formed a large part of the livelihood of the people has been destroyed by the policy of the Fianna Fáil Government.

Dr. Ryan

What industry?

The pig industry, and the whole agricultural industry, if the Minister wants to know.

Dr. Ryan

I got more for pigs this week than I got for the last four years.

The Minister got a better price for his pigs because his policy has brought everybody in the country to such a state that they have no pigs to sell. He deliberately brought about that condition and then he is able to get a good price for his own pigs.

There is a charge!

The Minister got that price because he smashed that industry in the hands of his neighbours. His policy created the scarcity that enabled him to get that price. Last January they could not get a price and killed and salted their pigs and eat them themselves because they could not afford to go to the shops.

I do not wish to delay the House unduly. I think I have told Fianna Fáil sufficient of the truth. I have extracted sufficient agonised squeaks from those benches to reassure me that the light is beginning to dawn upon them. They should tell the Minister for Agriculture now that they will not be a party to creating any more hosts of officials, as the Minister plans doing and intends to do, and they should go to him privately and tell him that he is ruining the agricultural industry of this country and that the best thing to do is to change the policy of the Executive Council and bring back prosperity to the farmers. If he does that he will do more for the pig industry than any commission can do. If he does that we will not want any commission or any administrative machinery, and we will not have to be cutting public servants' salaries in order to provide salaries for hosts of other public servants whom the Minister proposes to saddle on the country under this motion and under other legislation.

I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
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