Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney raised a good many points which I would like to deal with. I think I said already that we tried to purchase land outright for about £3 an acre and to lease it for about 3/- an acre. Deputies will realise from the figures I have quoted that the type of land we are after is not the best land because we would not get it at that price. For instance, you would not get good grazing or tillage land at such a price. On the other hand, we must get land that is plantable. Very often, since I came into office, Deputies have reported to me that there were five acres and in some cases 1,000 acres of plantable land available in certain places. I have always made it a point to send an inspector to these centres. Very often the inspector reports that the land is not plantable for one reason or another. It might be bare mountain land which would not grow trees or it may be bad bog land, undrained and uncut. Bog land that has been drained and cut away is suitable for planting, but if undrained and uncut it is not. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney also asked me if we are prepared to take over the 15,000 acres which we are negotiating for. That may not come off within this financial year. We hope it will. If it does then I shall probably have to come before the House again with a Supplementary Estimate to deal with it as well as with any increase in forestry work.
As I explained when introducing the Vote, if we intend, say, to deal with 6,000 or 10,000 acres a year, if we make up our minds to try and make that our permanent policy. We could not look on forestry work as a commercial or a paying proposition. We could not, for the sake of the relief of unemployment or any other reason, go into a big plantation of 10,000 acres for a year or two, and then go back to 3,000 acres. We have been examining for the last 12 months what we can make our permanent programme. I admit it would take us a few years to reach the 10,000 acre mark. We have found from experience in the Forestry Department that our own seedlings are better than imported seedlings, so that in order to provide seedlings for a plantation of 10,000 acres a year we would have to develop the nursery end of the business on a much larger scale than at present. That would mean that a large programme, so far as planting out is concerned, could not be undertaken for two or three years. That scheme, however, is under consideration.
I expect that we may be able to put our new programme into operation next year whatever we decide on. Of course, a difficulty will arise about getting land. So far there has been no great difficulty in getting sufficient land for our programme of 3,500 acres a year. Sufficient land has been offered to the Forestry Department to cope with the programme that we are carrying out at present. If, therefore, we change to a bigger programme of 10,000 acres a year, we may be in the position of having to go out to look for land. If we do, we may again be in the position of having to pay more for it. These are some of the difficulties to be faced in going in for a larger programme. It is quite true, of course, as Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney said that 10,000 acre blocks are very difficult to obtain. They are practically impossible, I think. So far as I know, we do not hope to obtain more than five or six such blocks. What we mean in the country by a 10,000 acres forest is 10,000 acres within a radius of say of seven or eight miles from the centre. We would regard that as one forest even though it was not all within the one fence. If it were within a seven or eight miles radius of the centre we would regard it as one forest and call it a 10,000 acres forest or whatever the area might be.
Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney asked about the species of trees. We have been trying many new species for some time but, as the Deputy very rightly says, it takes a very long time to find out whether these species will be successful or not. It takes five years or even up to 25 years to discover whether certain species are suitable. We cannot say at present definitely whether the new species are going to be successful. The new species mentioned include silka spruce, Douglas fir, and species such as the Japanese larch. We are also sticking to the old species, Norway spruce and European larch. Thuga has not been tried to any great extent by the Forestry Department. I was asked by Deputy Minch where we get our seeds. The seeds come from France, Germany and Canada. I presume they are got, as Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney says, from the native sources of the different varieties. I have not got the details at the moment. It takes a very long time to find out whether those species are suitable or not. To give an instance of that, I may say that when I was discussing this matter first with one of the technical men in the forestry branch, I asked him whether they had experiments in cross-breeding as they had in cereals in Glasnevin. He told me that they were doing that work. He said that the late Professor Henry did quite a lot of that work but that it would take 150 years to know the result. You may judge from that how long it takes to get results from the comparatively new species in this country.
In regard to the location of forests, the biggest centre, of course, is Wicklow. There is also quite a lot of planting between Tipperary and Waterford. Then come Leix and, fourth on the list, Kerry. Deputy Flynn, who made a complaint against the Department, therefore, has not as much cause for complaint as Deputies from many other counties. Kerry is likely to be amongst the first counties in this respect. It may perhaps come on top in the very near future because we have acquired there or are about to acquire large lots for planting. Many Deputies have said that we should not stick to the minimum of 500 acres as we have been doing. It is not considered economic by the Forestry Department to go below 350 acres at the very least. As they have been getting sufficient land to carry out their programme they had no necessity to go below that area. If we increase the programme, however, and go in for much more planting in the year, we might be compelled to go below that figure but for the present it is much better to keep as a minimum 350 or perhaps 500 acres. Once we have established a forestry centre the Department would be quite ready to take in areas, say, of 100 acres, which are quite close to the centre but which are not necessarily adjoining it, because we would have the forestry staff present in that district and it could look after these 100 acres as well as the plantation in the bigger area.
Deputy Goulding asked some questions about the type of timber we were planting. We have not been planting hard woods to any great extent. When we take over demesne lands we try to replant them with hard wood but demesne lands form only a very small percentage of our plantations. Alder was also referred to as suitable for clog-making. We have small areas of alder planted here and there but it has not been planted to any great extent either. Deputy Minch drew attention to the fact that we are placing our forests where they cannot be seen. The Forestry Department probably looks on forestry as a commercial proposition but they do take into account the scenic effect of the plantations. They keep that consideration in view both in the acquisition of land and the type of timber planted. Their main outlook, however, is commercial. As a matter of fact, in planting their forests they often look so far ahead as to speculate where saw-mills would be likely to be erected when the time comes for cutting the timber. They are very keen on getting land adjoining rivers where the saw-milling can be done on a commercial scale when the time comes, probably when Fianna Fáil will not be in power.
Deputy Minch raised another point to which I should like to refer. He complained that fine old trees in the country such as old beech trees, are being cut down. It is of course illegal, unless permission has been obtained under the Forestry Act of 1928, to cut down such trees. Every person who wants to cut down a tree is supposed to apply for permission to the nearest Civic Guard Station. He is supposed to wait 21 days and if no objection is raised he can then proceed to cut it down. We have, I know, on many occasions refused to grant permission even though the trees might be very good for timber purposes, if the cutting of the trees would mean a very serious loss from the scenic point of view. The scenic value of these trees is always taken into account. Of course I need not tell the House that there are complaints because that point of view is taken by the Forestry Department. People who own the trees complain that they require the cash that would be forthcoming for the timber. They complain about being compelled to preserve the scenery at their own expense. Deputy Flynn spoke about the acquisition of land in small areas of 50 acres or 100 acres. It would be better to deal with that matter through the committees of agriculture because they have power to make grants for the planting of such small areas, which would not be near one of the State forestry centres. The county committee would have power to make a grant for planting and the horticultural instructor is available to give the necessary instructions to those people who want to make plantations. Of course where there is a larger area than 100 acres, say up to 500 acres, adjoining a State centre, the State Department should be approached.
Deputy Flynn also complained that the Inspectors are theorists and that they report that certain areas are not suitable for plantations where, according to local opinion, they are obviously suitable. I do not think that is fair to the Forestry Inspectors, because they are not theorists by any means. As a matter of fact, the students who come from the National University commence by working beside the ordinary labourers in the forests. In the planting of trees they have to go through that stage of the work before they fulfil the regulations of the National University with regard to that course, and when they come out, if they are taken on by the Forestry Department, they have to graduate once more by beginning at the bottom and working up. They are by no means theorists. They are very practical men. If they have an opinion about the suitability of soils, and if the local people have another opinion—and I suppose it is not a matter of opinion—I would be prepared, I think, to take the opinion of the experts on the point.
Deputy Flynn said that I should reconsider these reports, and, I presume, reverse them. In certain circumstances a Minister can reverse the advice of his Department on an administrative matter, because he may hold that he knows more about it than those who put forward the recommendation, but when it comes to a technical point, the Minister cannot reverse the advice of the expert. If an expert puts forward a recommendation regarding forestry, and says that land is not suitable for planting, I could not take the responsibility of saying: "Go and plant on it." I must rely on the advice of experts in matters like that.
Deputy McMenamin spoke of a nursery in Donegal that did not give good results. That nursery is not owned by the Department. It is the property of the Committee of Agriculture in Donegal, and the trees grown there are for distribution amongst small planters in the county, people who may plant from one to five acres. Deputy Corish asked about Forth Mountain. In replying to a question a few weeks ago I think I stated that something like 500 or 600 acres would be planted there during the coming season. With regard to the rest of the County Wexford there have been, at least, three lots under negotiation for some time, and I believe that we have now acquired one of these.
