I would be glad to hear Deputy Hales again on this matter, when he finds himself in sufficient form to deal with it. I think it is only fair in this quiet discussion we have here this morning by ourselves, practically nobody looking on and talking, as we are, in a kind of family circle, that we should listen to one another. I put that point to Deputy Hales or to any Deputy opposite, because I am interested to know how Deputies or Ministers can honestly arrive at the conclusion that there is anything at all like equal prices here and in England. Then there is the question of the bounty. If the prices were equal here and in England, why a bounty? Why hand out £2,500,000 to the cattle dealers or the farmers? I am not supporting a bounty. From the little consideration I have given it, if I had anything to say in a matter like that, I would say that I would prefer that this money should be given to agriculture itself, at its source, rather than at its end; because when you go to the source you relieve the overhead charges of production and the benefit comes down the whole line of production and will make itself felt. But if you got to the dealer, at the other end, I am not satisfied at all. I spoke to people in the street about the matter, and they are not satisfied that the benefit comes down all along the line.
I heard the Minister upon this subject one day, and I knew from the line Ministers were taking what they would achieve by this policy. For instance, we are told the bounty is going to the shipper. They argued from that that by giving the bounties to the shippers that would induce them to go down the country and buy cattle. One dealer or shipper would compete with another and would give a certain price. He would give £10 before the bounty. Now he would go down and buy some class of beast and give another 35/- because of the bounty; and if he did not do that his competitor would do it, and so, by the ordinary law of supply and demand he would be forced to part with 35/- more for his beast, and that was supposed to go down all along the line. That is all right in theory; it is all right on paper. But anybody who ever studied the elements of economy knows that in the operation of economic laws there is also the time line. It is extraordinary that the intelligentsia of the Fianna Fáil Party, when bearing these glad tidings to the farmers, always said "S-sh! there will be a settlement. I saw So-and-So at a meeting of the National Executive, and I have it straight from the stable." These were the glad tidings that were given round the country. There were hopes of an immediate settlement. If this bounty was given 12 months ago, when the economic war started on 1st July last it would hardly yet have worked its way down through the whole gamut of the cattle trade.
If I were a supporter of the economic war I should have been a supporter, not of this bounty, but of giving something in the way of help to agriculture. I would plump for giving help at the source of production, and lightening the overhead charges on the land. I would benefit production from the source instead of this kind of trick-of-the-loop with the cattle trade. These cattle traders can look after themselves; it is their trade to do so. No one can blame them if they get the best value they can. It is up to the other fellow to see that they do not pull the wool over his eyes. I would favour giving assistance at the other end. I would help the overhead charges and not the dealers. In going with your help to the source of production you would be going to the producer, and it is the producers that make a nation.
I shall quote some figures, but before I do so I would like to say that I set far more value on the movement of goods and upon economic laws than I do upon statistics. There is a cattle fair in the chief town of every county at least once a month. There is a market in Dublin for cattle every week, and there is an opportunity to sell cattle here at the ruling price, and if there was not the difference in the price ruling here and in England, and if there were not a higher price in England than there is here, one beast would not go to England, so that if you brought a man here from the North Pole and told him that cattle are exported to England and sold in the English market, he will know, if he knows anything about economies, that the price must be higher in the English market, and as much higher as will pay for the cost of transit and give a fair margin of profit, with risk and insurance, for shipping the cattle over.
There has been so much objection to going back beyond the current financial year that I hesitate to do so, but I would ask the indulgence of the Ceann Comhairle to let me quote half a dozen prices for 1931. I do not do it for any political reason, but to show the small disparity between the prices obtaining in Dublin and England for live stock in 1931 as compared with the disparity now and the increased disparity started about the time of the economic war. On the 4th June, 1931, the average price per cwt. live weight in Dublin was 45/-, and on 5th June, 1931, in London, the average price was 48/8. On 11th June, a week after, in Dublin, the price was 46/3, and in London, 48/8. On 8th June it was 44/6 in Dublin and 50/- in London. Those figures are in respect of June, 1931. With respect to January, 1932, it was 38/3 in Dublin and 42/8 in London, on January 1st. On 14th January it was 38/6 in Dublin and 42/8 in London; on 2nd June, 1932, it was 42/6 in Dublin and 50/8 in London. On 5th May, previously, it was 42/- in Dublin and 46/- in London. The prices normally in London were from 3/- to 5/- per cwt. more, but, when we come on to July, we find that, on 7th July, it is 38/6 in Dublin, and, on 8th July, 46/8 in London, a difference of 8/-. On 6th October, 1932, it was 27/6 in Dublin and 38/- in London, while on 5th January, 1933, it was 29/9 in Dublin and 38/8 in London.
Coming to the last dates I have, we find that on 4th May, 1933, the average price is 25/9 in Dublin and 40/- in London. There has been a difference of 3/- or 4/- per cwt., normally, which accounted for the attraction that has always brought Irish live stock and beef to England, and that has given rise to the export trade. You can see the disparity that has started in July of last year.