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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Aug 1933

Vol. 49 No. 11

Barrow Drainage Bill, 1933—Second Stage.

I move the Second Reading of this Bill. Briefly, this Bill will alter the financial provisions of the Barrow Drainage Act, 1927, in three particulars. It will increase to £550,000 from £425,000 the maximum expenditure on the drainage of the River Barrow. The additional sum is being provided in equal shares by a Free State grant and by advances by the Commissioners of Public Works, repayable by the people in the localities concerned in accordance with Section 9 of the Act of 1927. It will also provide for an increase from £4,000 to £6,500 in the average annual expenditure on maintenance. It will enable advances, not exceeding in the aggregate a sum of £3,250, to be made to the Barrow Drainage Board by the State towards the cost of maintenance during the first year following the date of a final award. That covers the operative portions of the Bill. Certain explanatory particulars may be of use to Deputies, but I think most of them are familiar with the main provisions of the 1927 Act.

The Barrow Drainage Act of 1927 provided for a maximum expenditure of £425,000 on the drainage of the River Barrow. This sum is now found to be insufficient for two reasons. The first reason is that the cost of excavation will be more expensive than was originally estimated and the second is that it is desirable to carry out the cleaning of a large number of minor tributaries and drains which had not been included in the original scheme under the 1927 Act. As the House is probably aware, the Barrow drainage was begun in 1926 in anticipation of an enabling Bill which was passed in 1927 and under a scheme which was confirmed by the Minister for Finance in 1930. The fact that works on the River Barrow were begun in anticipation of legislation was an indication of the general desire to take early steps to remedy grievances regarding the flooding of the river. In order not to delay the introduction of the enabling Bill, a more or less preliminary estimate of £425,000 was made. This estimate was based on a survey of the river made in 1885. As there was little reason at the time to doubt the accuracy of this survey, it was decided to avoid the delay and expenditure involved in a new survey of the river.

During the progress of the works, however, it was found that the levels of the bed of the river as shown in the old survey were inaccurate and that considerable silting had occurred in the last 40 years at many points. These two factors were in themselves sufficient to cause a rather large increase in the amount of excavation now deemed necessary. The quantities of rock and "soft"—that is, everything except rock—were originally estimated at about 56,000 cubic yards and 2,200,000 cubic yards. These figures are now estimated to be increased to 120,000 cubic yards and 3,000,000 cubic yards, respectively.

Under the Act of 1927, it was the intention to deal only with the main artery, and as the scheme was regarded purely as an arterial drainage scheme, little attention was paid at the time of the passing of the Act to the cleaning of auxiliary drains and minor tributaries. The results of the works already executed now show how very desirable it is from the point of view of the occupiers to have the large drains forming the boundaries of their holdings efficiently cleaned and properly maintained in the future. These drains are numerous, widely separated and of a total length of more than 120 miles. The cost of including the arterial drains in the Barrow drainage scheme is fairly high, but none the less the cost of executing small individual drainage schemes would be considerably greater.

The amending Bill deals with another question of financial importance, viz., the expenditure on maintenance of the completed works. Provision is made for an increase from £4,000 to £6,500 in the average annual cost of maintenance during the first 35 years after completion of the works. The necessity for this increase is obvious, in view chiefly of the additional expenditure to be incurred on the numerous minor tributaries and auxiliary drains. The fixed annual sum payable by the county council is accordingly to be increased from £2,000 to £3,250, while, as under the original Act, one-half of the ascertained expenditure in each year will be defrayed from State funds.

Section 19 of the Act of 1927 provides that the county councils concerned should pay their contribution towards maintenance by equal moieties on each 30th September and 31st March, and that the Government contribution should be paid at the end of each financial year on the certificate of the Commissioners of Public Works that the works had been properly maintained.

It may happen, however—it will happen—that during the first year the Barrow Drainage Board may not have sufficient funds available for maintenance works and the Minister for Finance consequently proposes in this Bill to take power to advance sums not exceeding £3,250 to the Board during that year. The advances will be recoverable by deductions from the sums payable by the State towards the cost of maintenance in subsequent years, or, in the alternative, shall be repaid by the Barrow Drainage Board after the expiration of the 35 years period.

I might remind the House that the amendment of the Act increases the total expenditure from £425,000 to £550,000. It is enabling the maintenance to be increased from £4,000 to £6,500, and enables the State to advance £3,250 in the first year, in advance of moneys which in the ordinary way it would advance to enable the schemes to be comfortably maintained.

After the rather clear and reasoned statement of the Parliamentary Secretary, I should not have intervened on this Bill at all, were it not for something, possibly, with which he is acquainted. I refer to the rather lamentable speech of the Minister for Finance or, at least, the speech made during some period of the Finance Bill. It seemed to me to throw a slur on the engineer for the actual Barrow drainage scheme that is now in existence. I was very glad to learn from the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary that there is not even a shadow of foundation for the impression conveyed by the Minister. I must say that I was rather shocked, and the public outside were shocked, that Mr. Challoner Smith should be attacked, as it seemed to me he was. I was still more shocked that the attack should take place on a man who was no longer there to give a defence, even a Departmental defence. If the Parliamentary Secretary will look up that particular passage he will find that he would regret it more than anybody else, because the imputation was there conveyed that the scheme was botched, and that roughly £50,000 or £65,000 of a contribution was being added to the State burden owing to mismanagement in that case. That was the impression conveyed. I was in the House at the time, and I must say that the statement, coming even from the Minister for Finance, gave me a shock.

One thing that has emerged from the Parliamentary Secretary's exposition of the necessity for this Bill, is that the additional cost was practically inevitable, unless there was to be a great delay. The continental expert gave an estimate of the cost of the Barrow drainage scheme as £1,000,000 or £1,200,000. I forget the exact figure as it is many years since I was familiar with it, still, as the Parliamentary Secretary pointed out, the late Government determined to go in for the lesser scheme. The impression was conveyed that it was botched. It is true that the late Government decided to go on with the less expensive scheme, and for that purpose Mr. Challoner Smith drew up a scheme and supervised the carrying out of it. I gather that there is really no fault to be found with that particular work, and that the new expenditure was due to two causes, increased expenditure on rock cutting, which probably would have taken place also in the case even of the estimate given by Professor Meyer Peter, because that estimate went on the old measurements, and an increase caused by entirely new work, not necessary to the success of the scheme but which, as the Parliamentary Secretary rightly points out, it is desirable should be done; and also increased cost of maintenance, due largely to increased work. I intervened really in order to do what I considered to be a duty on my part, owing to my connection at one time with that Department, and owing to the fact that I had the greatest possible respect for the capacity of the engineer who was responsible. He was an engineer of which any country might be proud. I am quite sure the House will have no hesitation whatever in passing not merely the Second Reading, but any stage that is wanted.

As this scheme has been in evidence for six years an opportunity arises to see how far it has been a success, or otherwise. I happened to be passing through Carlow in the early part of this year when there was serious flooding.

Could the Deputy say what date?

I think it was in March last when there was serious flooding. It was in or about that period. I heard reports there at the time that while flooding had been relieved in the upper portions of the Barrow, it had been aggravated in the lower portions.

I have no reason to question this expenditure; I know nothing about it beyond what is heard in this House; but there is no use in spending money in relieving flooding in the higher portions of the river and aggravating it in the lower portions. By the introduction of this Bill an opportunity is now afforded the Parliamentary Secretary of giving some information to the House as to the success or otherwise of the whole scheme.

Perhaps the House is in such a nice, kindly mood that it will give us the remaining Stages of the Bill to-day. Deputy Good discovered himself in Carlow after a hurricane, after a snowstorm of unexampled magnitude, after a visitation of Providence such as we have not come across in a whole lifetime, and he wants to argue from that basis. On that morning, when in bed, any telephones that were working were bringing me messages telling me of all the places in the country that were flooded, due to the particular hurricane. With £550,000 this Dáil cannot legislate for cataclysms of that character. They can deal only with what one might call normal flooding.

In all cases of drainage work you have two or three prices at which you can do the work. At one you will relieve light flooding which comes fairly constantly. Another will relieve the flooding that comes once a year and sometimes once in five years; but no finances of this State will stand, in a flat country like Ireland, the relief of flooding which comes once in seventy years in cataclysms of the character I have described.

The contention that the lower reaches of the Barrow are flooded, due to the cleaning of the upper reaches, is the contention which every one who has had experience of drainage in Ireland will know is made in relation to every single drainage scheme without exception that has ever taken place in this country. In some cases, in respect of schemes under the 1925 Act, when we went in and reconditioned drainage, there was a certain amount of truth in that. What happened was that in reconditioning a river we did clean the upper reaches and put them in a condition such as they had not been in for ten or 15 years, but we put the river back into the condition in which it was when originally handed out as a perfectly new scheme. I have no information at present on balance which would enable me to say that it is true that the lower reaches of the Barrow have been flooded by the upper reaches. I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that I have any amount of statements to that effect both in relation to the Barrow and every other river in Ireland.

Unless the House is prepared to give us, instead of £550,000, a sum of £5,000,000, neither I nor anybody else can put forward a scheme which will prevent occasional flooding under very exceptional circumstances. In this case, £550,000 is being spent under the best possible technical advice we can get, with the most efficient machinery and under the most efficient organisation we can devise, in order to get the best possible work achieved in the direction of freeing the Barrow from normal flooding.

Question—"That the Bill be now read a Second Time"—agreed to.

If the House consents, I would like to have the remaining Stages of the Bill to-day.

The Chair is reluctant to appear to impede progress; but a Money Resolution must be accepted before the Committee Stage can be taken. I presume the Money Resolution could be circulated to-day, even immediately.

It will be circulated this evening.

We have no objection to the Minister moving the Money Resolution now, if the rest of the House is agreeable.

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