Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 2 Mar 1934

Vol. 50 No. 17

Vote No. 62—Posts and Telegraphs.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £34,608 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiochfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh Márta, 1934, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Puist agus Telegrafa agus Seirbhísí áirithe eile atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin, maraon le Telefóna.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £34,608 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1934, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and of certain other Services administered by that Office, including Telephones.

This Supplementary Estimate is necessary in order to provide for the payment of an ex gratia grant of £1,000 to Mrs. Repetto-Byrne, and also to make provision to meet a deficiency due to the withholding by the British Government of £53,608.

A Deputy

Shame!

Mr. Boland

I should like just to give a brief statement of why it is proposed to pay this money to Mrs. Repetto-Byrne. In 1910 Mrs. Repetto-Byrne took a lease of the premises, 29 Henry Street, for a term of 25 years, as from 1st April of that year.

The Minister need not go into that. Come on to the other item.

Mr. Boland

We shall come to the other item shortly. I understand that it was the custom when ex gratia payments were made in the past to state the reason for such payments. However, if Deputies are satisfied, I shall not go into it.

There is a limit to human endurance.

Mr. Boland

The other item of £53,608 is to make provision for a default by the British Government in the payment of that amount, being the balance due on foot of inter-State transactions between the two Departments—the Department of Posts and Telegraphs here and the British Post Office. That money was withheld. As described on the Supplementary Estimate, this sum is required as a provision to meet deficiencies due to the withholding by the British Government of sums in connection with claims for superannuation payments and telephone annuities disputed by the Saorstát Government.

Before the House can agree to such an Estimate as this, surely the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs ought to give some account of the steps he has taken to collect these moneys. Has he been in touch with the British Government on the subject? Has he had any conversations, has he made any threats or offered any inducements or what has he done to recover this money that he is now asking us to find for him?

Mr. Boland

The Post Office has been in touch with the British Post Office in connection with this matter and has protested that this amount should not be withheld in view of the services rendered by our Post Office for the British Post Office. The withholding of the money has been objected to, but as the alternative to refusing to vote this money might mean the disarrangement of the postal services, we were not prepared to go that far. We therefore have decided, under protest, to ask the Dáil to provide a sum in respect of the money withheld.

In view of the fact that there is a surplus of £18,000,000 in the British Post Office this year, would the Minister make further representations to the British Government on the matter?

Can the Minister say, in connection with the receipt of this £53,608, which, I presume, they may put on the credit side of the ledger, if this sum has been taken into account by them in estimating for the receipts from tariffs they have imposed on our goods, or is it an extra sum?

Mr. Boland

Estimated by whom?

The officials of the British Government have collected, by way of tariffs, a sum of approximately £6,500,000. Is this £53,000 in excess of that or is it portion of these receipts? In other words, is it going to be taken into account as a sum they have received or is it confiscated? I do not know whether the Minister is aware that a question arose some years ago in connection with the payment of compensation as to the meaning of "commandeering" and "confiscating." The late Minister for Justice, God rest his soul, said in explaining the matter to the British Government that if a man here had a motor bicycle and the military came along and took possession of it, and if it just struck the man, knowing the difference between confiscation and commandeering, of which I am quite sure the Minister is also aware, to rush out when the lorry was going off and say: "Are you confiscating it or are you only commandeering it," that man might be able to make a claim for it afterwards. Would the Minister tell us whether the money has been confiscated or commandeered? If it is only commandeered, we can enter a claim for it later. If it is confiscated I presume our title to it has gone.

Mr. Boland

I could not say whether it is confiscated or commandeered, but the fact is that it has been withheld. The one thing I know is that we did not get the money, although we were entitled to it on account of the services rendered by our Department. It is to make provision for that deficiency that the Vote is introduced.

May I put it this way, that whether the Dáil votes this money or not, somebody is short of this amount?

Mr. Boland

Both sides cannot be short of it.

May I take it that the Minister has anticipated a receipt which has not accrued?

Mr. Boland

Exactly.

This withholding of moneys seems to be a catching disease. We withheld certain sums from the British and the British are now withholding certain sums from us. The unfortunate farmers are withholding their cattle because they cannot send them anywhere and they have been accused of withholding their annuities. This £53,000 would pay the annuities in my part of the country, anyway, but I suppose we shall have to pay our share of it now. If this disease of withholding proceeds much further I do not know exactly where we shall stand. We shall not be able to withhold enough to live. We are to be debarred from withholding our shirts. Next, I suppose, the stockings and the breeches will go. The pockets anyhow are not much use except to put one's hands in them to keep them warm. I really think that some effort should be made to recover this £53,000. They have three or four millions to spare in the British Post Office and £53,000 would not worry them. I appeal to the Minister to make an urgent effort to get his colleagues to settle this unfortunate dispute that started the withholding disease, and we might get something. The Minister laughs at that. Of course £53,000 is not much when you say it quickly, but it is a terrible amount in the mind of a farmer who is trying to make a bare existence at the present time. This is another example of the ramifications into which this economic war has led us. We do not know where we are going to stop. The sooner it is stopped the better for the country and then there will not be any need of Bills such as the Bill brought in yesterday.

Is this a manifestation of the economic war or of the no rates campaign? I suggest the Minister should send over a sheriff to seize English cattle and bring them to Lenehan's Pound to sell them.

Mr. Boland

So I could.

I will give him the same help as I did before.

You would, of course.

Yes, I would, and if he wants an assistant I will leave that to Deputy Briscoe. He will get them over; he knows all about the international exchange. I wonder did the British include this in their net of seven millions odd which Mr. Thomas mentioned? Who is losing this? We could add this to the withheld agricultural grants—another case of withholding. Of course the Minister for Finance will swell his chest and say the financial position is buoyant, and he is the boy who will make it buoyant. If we have much more of the Minister it will be buoyant in a particular sense, because there will be no finance there; it will be a floating debt we will have.

Mr. Boland

Do not forget the olive branch.

I do not forget the olive branch; we are paying very well for it. We will have a terrible lot to forget and forgive when we hold out the olive branch. I suppose communities, like individuals, sow their wild oats. This country has sown its wild oats and it is paying very well for it, not in the feeding mixture of the Government but in real wild oats. This is only £53,000 of the whirlwind harvest we have to reap. The day of reckoning is fast coming. The Government's latest tactics would seem to indicate that they saw red when they saw blue.

The Minister can probably tell Deputy Belton what he, perhaps, would not want to know if he were a Tipperary farmer, that there is not much use in seizing cattle to make up for this money. I would like the Minister to tell us if there is going to be additional taxation imposed this year to make up this £53,000 and whether he anticipates that it will be necessary to impose £53,000 additional taxation during the coming financial year in order to make up that amount. The Minister told the House about 12 months ago that it would not be necessary for us to impose any additional taxation in order to bring the present dispute between this country and Great Britain to a victorious conclusion. At that time the Minister had already put the country under a very terrible burden of taxation. For that reason I think the Minister, when he asks the House to vote this very big sum of money arising out of the dispute with Great Britain, ought to take the House into his confidence and tell Deputies how much of this amount will involve additional taxation on the country this year and whether a similar sum is likely to be involved next year —that is, another £53,000 in respect of the next financial year—and also what additional taxation the country will have to bear in consequence.

I would like to know if the Minister has taken any steps to recover this money. We are alleged to be at war and we are told we have won some round. Is there any attempt being made to win this round? The English have already collected over £6,000,000 on our agricultural produce. Have we collected anything off them? Have we no means of striking back at England so as to collect even this £53,000? If the Government cannot contrive some means by which to get even this small sum, it is about time we heard of the end of the economic war. Surely there are certain articles of British manufacture that we handle on which the Government could collect this sum. Some active steps should be taken to prove to the country that this Government can hit back in some direction and that they will not be sitting with the white flag in their hands all the time. Why not select some articles of British manufacture and make sure that you will collect off them sufficient to provide even this £53,000? Up to the present the tactics of the Government in their conduct of this alleged war resemble a sort of continuous litany of imbecility, incapacity and ineffectiveness.

I do not think the Government would be wise at the moment to adopt the policy of war or piracy suggested by Deputy McMenamin. I think it would be foolish if they were to do so, and I am sure the Deputy is not quite sincere in taking up this warlike attitude.

Put up the white flag.

I rather thought that Deputies opposite were not in full agreement that this war should be carried on with any greater intensity than it is being carried on. The only disappointing note we have struck so far was the statement that we heard from Deputy MacDermot that the British were an honourable people prepared to pay their just debts; that they were a decent people with whom to discuss anything, and that they gave fair play all around. It would appear to me that that is not the case now.

Is the Deputy quoting me?

That is not the case with the Free State, anyway.

I must ask the Deputy to read the alleged quotation.

It certainly is not the case that the Free State is committing highway robbery at the present time; rather is it that John Bull is committing highway robbery against the Free State.

And there is no one here in the Government prepared to stand up to him.

Is it not amazing, when the British do try to commit this highway robbery we are told about, that the Government here have not devised some practical way of retaliating? For instance, if we were to shake Deputy Cleary at them he might not, perhaps, be very effective as a weapon, but I should think that it would be almost the greatest insult we could hurl at them. Now, what about the economies of all this?

Do I understand the great fear that is hitting the Minister on this occasion is that postal communication between the two islands might be cut off or might be interrupted? Why do we want postal communication between the two islands? We do not want the British for business purposes, I understand. Surely the Minister is not providing for the passage of letters and mails merely on social matters? We do not want any sort of business as between this country and Great Britain; the British market is gone, thank God for it, we are told. If we have nothing to write letters about I do not suppose Deputy Cleary is going to write letters bemoaning that! Why do we want to get letters from Britain? Why does the Minister want to get them? Why are those letters to be passing backward and forward? Is it not possible to do something manly, if stupid, like stopping our letters to them? We have done it with our cattle; we might as well do it with our letters. Why cannot something really blatantly stupid like that be done? This is a microscopic provision which shows up the arrogant stupidity of all the other things. When we are stupid in the big things why not be stupid in the details? Is there any way we could do something, like shaking Deputy Cleary, to scare them out of their skins? We have a Minister here who has avowed himself an adept at teeth slapping. Why not send his over? We have another Minister who has—I suppose by way of competition— avowed himself an adept at faceslapping. Why cannot he be sent over? Why cannot the President write a "Dear Mr. Thomas" letter like he did when he wanted to know what would happen if he declared a Republic? "Dear Mr. Thomas, We never believed you would be ignorant enough"—as Deputy Cleary would say—"to get your own back on us if we tried to do something dirty on you, and we are ashamed of your conduct. We should have asked you, before we did anything to rile you, what you would do in certain eventualities. Let us now forget what happened, and let us know what you are going to do if this continues in the future." Next year, are we to make provision for another £53,000? Is this what I might call only the fruits of one year's milking—this loss of £53,000? Is this only one year we are answering for?

Mr. Boland

I think one year at the time is about all we can tackle.

Apparently it is too much.

Why not go further and say far too much? Was there not provision made for this—

Mr. Boland

If there were it would not be necessary now. Were you not told that before?

Is not that an alarming profession of weakness on the part of this amazingly strong native Government of ours, in connection with a matter so vital as a few letters not required for business purposes? Fiftythree thousand pounds! This is the most amazing exhibition of incompetence, stupidity and weakness I have ever come across. It is almost worth while feeing the Minister for Finance to go over and make speeches at them. If we are getting into the idea of trade by barter why not get into the idea of communication by personal messenger? As far as business is concerned one man crossing once a week would probably be all that is required, and in connection with merely social matters or light personal conversation the Minister for Finance could be sent over, and nobody would regret it if he stayed over for a long time.

How will the propaganda bureau work if communication is cut off?

Is the Minister not going to give us any reply?

Mr. Boland

I have given all the information I have to give on the matter.

I address my remarks particularly to the Minister for Finance, as the Minister for Finance assured this House it would not be necessary to put taxation on the country in order to bring to a successful conclusion the present dispute between Great Britain and ourselves. Now he comes along with this Estimate quite unexpectedly at the end of the financial year. It is quite clear that £50,000 more must be got next year, and the House is entitled to hear something from the Minister for Finance on this question as to where the money is to come from.

Before the Vote is put I should like to say that none of us is blaming the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs——

Oh yes, I am.

He is doing his job well. I should like to make a final appeal to him—

To do something stupid.

Yes—what the Minister for Finance calls stupid.

Something manly.

Will you approach your bosses—the one on that side of you and the one that ought to be on the other side of you—and ask them for God's sake to get you out of this hole they put you in, and make some endeavour to put an end to this withholding game which started about a year ago, and which continues still?

Vote put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 48; Níl, 22.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Davin, William.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Richard.

Níl

  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Dolan, James Nicholas.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearoid.
  • Rice, Vincent.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Traynor; Níl: Deputies Bennett and McMenamin.
Question declared carried.
Estimates reported.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.40 p.m. until 3 o'clock, Tuesday, March 6th.
Top
Share