Or to attempt to deceive anybody else into believing that there is available in Great Britain now, or will be at any time in the future, a market for live stock capable of absorbing the production which we undertook in previous years. It is not there. I again refer to the fact that only last week the President of the Council in the British Cabinet, Mr. Baldwin, asserted in a most emphatic manner, in a manifesto to the British Farmers' Union, that they were going definitely to conserve the market for meat in Great Britain for the British producer and to limit supplies from all other countries. He pointed to the fact that their Treaty obligations with Canada, Australia and New Zealand terminated in June, and that, with the termination of these engagements, supplies from these countries were to be cut down also. Deputies who try to deceive members of the farming community into the belief that there is any action open to any Government in this country, that will secure for them again uninterrupted entry to the British market for live stock, do the farmers of this country a very great disservice. I did not want to go into these matters because they are only slightly relevant so far as the motion is concerned, but that statement does clear the air, and does help Deputies to realise that in tackling the position we have to have regard to actuality and not to the fancies to which they may care to give utterance.
Deputy Norton, in the course of his remarks, supporting this resolution, which asks the Government to take steps to provide a large scale scheme of public works to relieve the distress occasioned by unemployment, argued as follows: We have within our control all the powers required to deal with the unemployment problem. And he said that we had to face the fact that the development of industry, which is taking place and which has taken place, no matter how intensive it may be, because of the development of machinery and the tendency towards the adoption of labour-saving devices in modern industry, is not capable of absorbing our unemployed. The words he used were:—
"The plain fact we have to face, in respect of our industrial activity, is that our industries to-day are not capable of absorbing all our unemployed people."
He argued that industry might help to deal with the problem, in a much greater degree, if legislation was introduced reducing working hours so that to maintain the same production a larger number of hands would be required. He dealt also with the position of agriculture, and the reaction of world prices upon agriculture here, similar to those on agriculture in other countries; and while he agreed that the change over from live stock production to the production of tillage crops might, in due course, have its effect upon the unemployment problem, nevertheless he argued the process was likely to be slow and that we could not depend upon it for any immediate improvement of the situation. Therefore he urged that the resources of the State should be mobilised in whatever form the Government thought best in order to finance a scheme of public works and thus provide the opportunity of using the unemployed in some useful manner. And he then proceeded to indicate various kinds of public works that had occurred to him and to the members of his Party which he would like to see undertaken.
I think that we must, first of all, examine very closely the facts of industrial development upon the unemployment situation. If it is true that the mechanisation of industry is having the effect of lessening the effect upon unemployment which development might otherwise have, and if, in fact, it is not possible now to absorb the unemployed persons in this country, no matter how great the industrial development we may secure in industry, that situation would be serious indeed. It is quite true that President Roosevelt carried out an investigation of unemployment conditions in the State of New York and came to the conclusion that if every factory in the city of New York was put to work at full time, or even at overtime, all the unemployed in that city would not be absorbed. It is quite true that every day new devices for speeding up production, and for the elimination of human labour, are being adopted in many industries and that, in fact, it is possible to get, in respect of these industries, a very great increase in production without any increase in employment and, in fact, with a decrease in employment.
I remember well in Canada, in 1932, I went with a British Minister to see a nickel works in a certain province. Some 50 people or so were employed there. The manager told us that a few years before the same production from this works required the employment of between three or four thousand persons; but an entirely new process of production was introduced and the result was that they could maintain their output with one-tenth of the number of people they formerly employed. That development has taken place in a much similar way here. But I submit it is an open question whether it is true to assert that the various possible industrial developments will not give us work for all the people now unemployed whatever their number be. It is, of course, difficult to forecast what employment will be given by any particular development and we must always bear in mind that economists calculate that for every two persons employed in production at least one person is employed in distribution or a luxury occupation of one kind or another. The forecasting of the employment to be given by any industrial development is often very inaccurate. It was always regarded as axiomatic that the development of the flour industry would have no effect on employment. The Tariff Commission, after exhaustive enquiry, expressed the opinion that the production of flour required in Irish mills would only increase employment by 150. In fact, 550 people extra have been employed in Irish flour mills since June, 1932, when the tariff was imposed, and we have not yet supplied cur requirements. Two or three new mills are being built and still further mills are being planned, so that the actual number will be further increased.
On the other hand Deputy Norton referred to the brushmaking industry. Despite the fact that, as a result of tariffs, the output of that industry has been increased by nearly three times, the new conditions were made the occasion of the reorganisation of the industry and the introduction of new methods of manufacture with the result that the total employment given by the industry has actually diminished. There is, however, still a wide field of industrial activity untouched. We have succeeded in the past two years in producing activities in the directions where it was easiest to produce activity, in respect of industries where there were not the same difficulties, either in respect to the management or the staffing, as will exist in the case of industries to be created in future. We got that development in relation to industries where increased production and increased activity could be secured with the smallest capital expenditure. We have now reached the stage in our industrial programme where the new concerns will have to be of larger size, require a heavier capital investment and can only be brought into existence with the assistance of technical skill, both in the management and in the staff, not at present available in the country. These industries however are of the kind that absorb workers in large numbers and which mainly require for their operation male workers and adult workers. They cannot be brought rapidly into existence. The actual construction and equipment of factories will in some cases take over 12 months but, even upon that work, employment will be available which will have its bearing on the situation.
The housing programme of the State is being pushed ahead as rapidly as possible. Very great activity is being undertaken in all directions. In some respects it has been held up by the absence of skilled workers, as Deputies will have read in the Press for themselves. There is, of course, a natural reluctance on behalf of the trade unions catering for these skilled workers greatly to increase their numbers by the admittance of new entrants without some guarantee that the present scale of development will be maintained, because otherwise they might find a slackening off in activity at a later stage and consequently a much greater demand amongst their members for whatever work might be available, with reactions on their general standard of living. The development of the housing industry, however, even at the scale at which it has been possible to undertake it having regard to the limitations which I have mentioned and the other limitations imposed by the nature of the machinery at the disposal of local authorities, has also created the possibility of other industries which are being established and extended at the present time and which are capable of very considerable development. I have been, in fact, surprised, on going into the figures in respect of many of the materials required in house construction, to find the extent of the market available and the extent to which we are still unable to supply our own requirements. Our efforts in recent months have been very largely directed towards interesting people in the organisation of concerns to undertake the production of these goods. I say, however, it would be a pessimistic idea to allow to operate in our minds that it is not possible to deal with our unemployment problem by industrial developments.
I suppose Deputies will differ as to the extent to which industrial development is possible here but there is, I assert, much more to be done than has been done and in the doing of that we shall make a very considerable gap in the ranks of the unemployed. The reorganisation of agriculture, involving as it does a much more intensive tillage programme in respect to wheat, beet and the cereal feeding stuffs required by farmers, must also have its bearing on the unemployment problem. It is true, that while our industrial and agricultural plans are working out, there is a situation which has to be dealt with, but a situation which, I assert, is being dealt with in the public works programme of the Government, backed by its unemployment assistance scheme. There are, of course, limitations naturally imposed upon any public works scheme that can be undertaken. No matter what that scheme may be, whether it be a waterworks, a sewerage, a drainage or an afforestation scheme, there are technical engineering problems which must be solved and the resources at the disposal of the State and at the disposal of the local authorities in the solving of these problems are limited.
It is easy enough to say that there is work to be done. Deputy Norton suggested quite a number of directions in which there is work to be done. It is a much more difficult matter, however, to organise the doing of that work—to provide the direction, to prepare the plans, to get the men actually down on the job. The preparation of the plans alone involves considerable delay and these plans must necessarily be carefully prepared so as to ensure that not merely will work be provided for the unemployed but that useful results are likely to accrue from the doing of it. If it were merely a matter of employing men, it would be quite feasible to engage them to make holes and fill them up. It is not that class of work on which we want to engage the unemployed, because unless the work is of a useful nature it is better that they should not work at it at all. It takes much more in hard cash to put a man on work than it does to maintain a man in the same degree that he would be maintained from the wages arising from the work. If you have 100 men unemployed you can pay each of these men 30/- at a cost of £150, but you could not put them into employment at a 30/- wage for £150. Even at the simplest form of work, such as road construction, at which only simple tools like spades and picks would be used, the provision of these tools, the provision of the materials and the provision of directional control would involve an expenditure of almost as much again— another £150 a week. However, if we are going to use national funds for the purpose of putting men to work we must ensure that we are going to get a return for the money so expended. That involves, as I have said, the solution sometimes of intricate engineering problems and always the direction of the operations with considerable care.
Deputies have had explained to them the difficulties that arise in connection with, for example, any large schemes of afforestation. Afforestation involves the planting of trees and before it can be undertaken numbers of young trees must be available. I understand that the afforestation experts say that the trees must have been grown in this country, that it is not feasible to import young trees from abroad and plant them here as they seldom make good progress. Consequently, as a preliminary to any large scale afforestation scheme, there must be a nursery stage. That at present has been organised and this year or next year afforestation work will be on a much larger scale than heretofore. The following year it will have reached a point at which we will be able to maintain if for a number of years after that, so that the full afforestation programme of the Government, outlined by the Minister concerned, will be given effect to.
The erection of public buildings of any kind is not, in my opinion, a useful form of work to undertake for the purpose of relieving unemployment, because the type of persons, apart from preliminary work on foundations or demolition, that would be employed upon such schemes are, in the main, not unemployed at the present time. In fact, in respect of a large number of such classes of persons they are in demand and are not available in sufficient numbers to meet the requirements of the ordinary housing programme. Certain plans in connection with public buildings are in contemplation, but the immediate relief of unemployment requires works of a different kind. The reclamation of land, the drainage of rivers and so forth is all work which has been, and is being, undertaken. But, again, there are very definite limitations upon that class of work arising out of engineering problems. However, the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary who are dealing with these matters from day to day will be able to inform the Dáil of the actual undertakings that have been carried through in the past year, and of those that are planned for the coming year. I think they will be able to point out that, to the limit of the resources made available, very useful work has been done and a very large amount of employment has been given. The returns show that at various stages in the course of the year, especially during the winter months when unemployment is considered to be at its worst, there have been from time to time over 40,000 people employed upon Government works or works assisted out of Government funds of one kind or another. The provision of these public works has, of course, its bearing upon the industrial and agricultural position.
It is, I think, a remarkable thing that there appears to have been no slackening off whatever in the consumption of goods in this country. Most of the retail concerns, the accounts of which are made available to the public at the annual meetings of shareholders, have reported in this year an increased trade over the previous year. It was not merely a matter of one concern, because of good management or exceptional circumstances, doing well at the expense of others, the remarkable fact is that they have all had the same report to make. The trade statistics available show that the consumption of the goods in most frequent use from day to day and from week to week has been well maintained and that, in fact, there has been an increase in the consumption of many classes of goods the sales of which are regarded generally as an index of the purchasing power of the people. That situation is, no doubt, partly due to the public works which the Government have undertaken, and partly due to the fact that the very large sum which previously went out of this country to pay for manufactured goods imported is now being retained here and circulated again and again during the course of the 12 months through new or existing industrial concerns. It is partly due, too, to the fact that the farming community, even though they have had to face a substantial fall in the prices of their products, have also enjoyed a considerable reduction in their operating costs.
It is not correct to pretend or to assert that the whole of the fall in prices, to which reference has already been made, has been borne by the farming community. Nothing of the kind has, of course, occurred. The expenses which the farmer has to meet out of the price he secures for his products have all been reduced. This year we are providing almost £2,000,000 in relief of rates on agricultural land. It is the largest sum that has ever been provided for that purpose in any year since the Saorstát was established. This year, in addition, the farmers have had their annuity charges reduced by half. That left available amongst them to meet other charges the sum of almost £2,500,000. There have been reductions in the prices of the materials used by them—feeding stuffs and so forth—and various measures are being adopted in order to make these reductions more effective and of direct benefit to them. The fall in agricultural prices in respect of certain commodities has, therefore, been in a large measure offset by the reduction of other charges, and we must also bear in mind that in respect of a number of agricultural products prices are now moving upwards and the indications are that they will continue to move in that direction. I refer particularly to those commodities which are sold in large quantities. The prices of milk and butter, of milk products of various kinds, and of pigs and bacon have all been well maintained. They are much higher, in fact, than they are in other countries. The prices for oats and barley have been moving upwards, while the prices now obtaining for sheep are higher than they have been at any time since an early date in 1931. The price of potatoes has also gone up. In fact, the customs authorities are now engaged on the problem of dealing with persons attempting to smuggle potatoes in from Northern Ireland, where the price for them is very much lower. The price of wool has also advanced considerably. The prices for other agricultural products have also either been maintained or they are moving upwards. The position, therefore, is that in respect of those commodities the reduction in charges to which I have made reference—the reduction, for instance, in the price of feeding stuffs—has been of very direct benefit to the farmers and has helped them to meet their losses upon live stock. In respect to live stock, the measures which are being adopted by the Government will help farmers to carry over the transition period before the new order is in full operation. Farmers appear to have been able to maintain their purchases of industrial goods to much the same extent as in previous years. Again, I would remind Deputies of statements which have been made by persons who have no sympathy with the Government: of men like Senator Sir John Keane, who is a director of the Bank of Ireland. The information available to them is that not merely are sales being maintained, but that cash payments for sales are as good, if not better, than they have been for a number of years past. I move the adjournment of the debate.
