Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 1 May 1934

Vol. 52 No. 1

First Schedule.

Mr. Cosgrave

I move amendment No. 1:—

In Part I, to delete all references to the constituency of "Cork" and substitute therefor the following:—

CORK BORO'.

The County Borough of Cork and the County Electoral area of Ballincollig.

Five

The population of Cork, for the borough constituency, in 1911, was 116,622. Under the census of 1926 there was an increase in the population of about 2,000. The proposal in the Bill is to take away some 17 electoral divisions from that constituency to add to one of the other constituencies in the rural areas of the county, but reducing the representation in the city from five to four. It is one of those cases where there was no necessity for any alteration. I do not know whether the Minister had any particular reason for making this alteration. The county borough and the three other rural districts comprised have in all some 18 representatives under the Electoral Act as it stands. The change now proposed makes alterations in every one of these constituencies. It would have been possible—and I think the Minister had the opportunity—to have an alternative, and to have brought before the Dáil a proposal for altering the figures in the case of two of these constituencies, and leaving the other two as they stood.

There is one constituency, West Cork, which is the same as it is at present. That is only one out of four, whereas under this scheme which is in the Minister's office there was an opportunity of making the proposals here which would change only two of them. What is the reason for this alteration I do not know. There is a general consensus of opinion in favour of leaving the Cork Borough constituency stand as it is. This is portion of the hinterland. It seems to be that hinterland in respect of which there are several important industries, and there is no good case made for making the alteration. This particular alteration that I am now recommending need not interfere very materially with the scheme which the Minister has in mind.

But if the alternative proposal which I think is in the Minister's possession were adopted, it would, I think, make fewer changes, and leave the constituencies with the boundaries as they were, making it more convenient not alone for the residents but for the interests which have had representation here and more convenient for the representatives, as they know the constituencies. All round, I should say that in a constituency such as this the less changes the better. Alterations should not be made unless there are strong reasons for them. Without such strong reasons the alterations should not be recommended to the House. I have no complaint from the members of the constituencies in Cork regarding the present distribution of the various electoral areas, and consequently I am moving this amendment to change the number from four to five and to include in the Cork Borough constituency those areas which have been taken away and handed over, I think, to East Cork.

Mr. Anthony

I support the amendment. Deputy Cosgrave has made out a very good case for this amendment and he has given the main reasons why most of the electors of Cork object to the change proposed by the Minister under his Electoral (Division of Constituencies) Bill. The Minister must be aware that within very easy reach of the city there is an important village which has a relatively large industrial population. That is the village of Blarney. Then there is another district, the town of Passage West and beyond that another district, the residential portion of Monkstown. Sir, I will wait until Deputy Corry ceases talking to the Minister and then perhaps we will get some attention to the matter about which I am addressing the House. That is a very important matter for Cork City. If Deputy Corry has finished with his conversation with the Minister I will proceed. I did not want to interrupt the conversation between them. I have that much courtesy left me.

The Minister must be aware that adjoining Cork City are these important centres. They are important because of two reasons. One reason, in the case of Blarney, is that you have a very important woollen industry there. The town contains relatively a large number of working-class people. These, as well as Monkstown, Passage West and Ballincollig, are important areas. The people in these areas enjoy most of the amenities of Cork City. These areas have become very largely leading residential suburbs of the City of Cork. Many people come by bus and by other methods of transport into the City of Cork from these suburbs. The business people—shop-keeping class and working class— reside in these areas, which have very close contact with the city.

The argument that may be made in favour of a change in other areas such as the Counties of Limerick, Longford, Westmeath and other such places, cannot with any force be used in the case of Cork City. I would suggest to the Minister that he would consult with the members of his own Party in relation to this change. The argument has, of course, been put up which might apply and certainly does apply to nearly every other constituency in the Irish Free State, namely, that it might happen in the luck of the ballot boxes that the city representatives might form a majority of the five members to be returned and that the majority would not know much about agriculture and, therefore, could not be considered to be representative of the whole area. That argument is rather a fallacious one, because it has been proved beyond yea or nay that the Deputies who reside in the City of Cork give as good if not better service to the agricultural community as many persons in this House who represent agricultural areas only.

I would suggest that the Minister would go a little closer into this matter in relation to the Cork City Borough. I certainly agree that a case can be made for a reduction of the personnel of the House. I do not know from what angle the Minister may look at that aspect of the case. But I have always felt that even in your county councils and rural district councils representation there was a very useful safety valve, because the constituents were able to keep in close touch and contact with their representatives. I feel, at the same time, that a case may be made for reduced numbers. Of course it is easy to argue against that too. Because, presuming that you reduced numbers for any given area you will always have the case that you have to-day, that very many of the constituents will be living many miles away in the remoter parts of the constituency. Again, the luck of the ballot box will account for that.

I would urge on the Minister to consult with some of his own Party, who will inform him on the matter, and I ask him to have regard to the real facts of the case. I say that the cutting out of the electoral area of Ballincollig, as suggested in the Bill, is not at all a popular thing. I do not use the word in the sense of being popular as playing to the gallery. But it is unpopular as applied to the residents there who feel that they will be out of touch with their representatives if they are put into East Cork. Of course the same argument might be used about putting Youghal into Waterford and putting Mallow from East Cork into North Cork. But I am not dealing with these areas at all. I am confining my remarks to the city bounds. I again urge the Minister to consult some of his own colleagues before making the change.

Mr. Corry

If there is any portion of the Electoral (Revision of Constituencies) Bill which meets with the general satisfaction of the people it is the change that has been made in connection with Cork City. In the first place, I would say that it was an outrageous proceeding at any time that 40,000 of the rural population should be disfranchised through having nobody to represent them except city people whom they never see except at election time. I can speak personally in that respect. Ever since I came into the Dáil I had to take the whole burden of that area on my shoulders and had to work for the people there.

General Mulcahy

God help them.

Mr. Corry

City Deputies who knew nothing whatever about Land Acts and who knew nothing about the various complaints that the farmer has and the various matters which Deputies in rural constituencies have to meet were there misrepresenting that constituency. They knew nothing about the farmers' difficulties——

General Mulcahy

What about killing the calves?

Mr. Corry

Yes, or killing men.

A Deputy

That is a hard one.

General Mulcahy

It is a hard one for some Cork people.

Mr. Corry

The Deputy did his part in Cork anyway. The voting within this urban area is 118,000 and outside 40,000. You have an area in Ballincollig extending 13 miles outside the city. That part of the population have no say whatsoever in anything concerning the city people, having no interest in the Corporation or anything connected with the city. Whenever they write to city Deputies they usually get back strange answers. One constituent wrote to a city Deputy about his Dáil loan. He got a reply that his letter was passed on to the Department of Finance and that it was being seen to. The moment that the rural population heard that they were, at last, going to get representation, letters poured in upon me by the hundred; my correspondence has practically doubled. On every occasion of a general election the farmers put up candidates in that constituency. They never succeeded in returning one. The city interest was so strong that they always found themselves in the position of having to be represented by city Deputies who knew nothing about their conditions. Only once in every four or five years, when there was a general election, did the candidates come to the chapel gates telling the rural electors what they would do, but after that they were not again seen for several years. Then I had to take up the burden of these people. I have been taking up the burden for them for the last seven years and I am glad now that the Minister is going to remedy the situation. I am glad the Minister has seen his way to give the rural population an opportunity of electing rural Deputies to represent them.

Mr. O'Kelly

There was more than one reason why the change, to which Deputy Cosgrave objects, was made in the representation of Cork City. Deputy Corry has alluded to one and that is that the area was a composite rural and urban area. The large rural area of Ballincollig, with an electorate of nearly 40,000 in 187 square miles, was included in the Parliamentary area for Cork City. Taking into account the changes in population—the drop in population in North Cork, East Cork and West Cork—we had to recast the constituency boundaries in order to make, as nearly as we could, a population appropriate to the number of members; and we thought it was a good principle to include what was strictly a rural area in a constituency appropriate to it. Cork City is big enough to be a constituency in itself. In every rural area you have a village with a rural industry, more or less. Blarney is one. It has an industry well-known that has made a great name. The fact that one industry happens to be in the town of Blarney would not be sufficient reason to include a rural area of over 170 square miles in a strictly urban constituency like Cork City.

If this amendment were accepted it would mean the recasting of the boundaries of all the constituencies in Cork County. We have been asked by this amendment, and by Deputies of different Parties, to reconsider and to recast all the constituencies in Cork County. I may say that I have been many times asked about every constituency in the country. Will Deputy Anthony suggest that I am to consult the members of all Parties? I said, on the Second Reading of this Bill, that I did not consult the members of any Party—my own or any other Party —as to the drafting of the Bill. I am quite satisfied that it would be next to impossible to get anything like unanimity of opinion upon the divisions we have made in the various constituencies from any Party in the House. In every Party you would have Deputies who would complain about the boundaries as redrafted. They have been redrafted without reference to any Party. For that reason I have had considerable trouble but I, also, have some idea of what trouble I would have if I were to go to members in each constituency and ask them to draft the boundaries. You could not do it. You would never get agreement from any Party as to what the boundaries should be. I think the boundaries for Cork City should make it a strictly urban area. I think the rural areas, even though there be an industry here and there like Blarney, have been placed under the Bill where they properly belong, and will get attention from Deputies who will be more qualified to look after the interests of their rural constituents than Deputies who represent urban areas usually are. Speaking for myself, I would not like to have to represent a rural constituency. I know something about the wants of people in rural areas. No man could be in public life without learning a good deal about the ills that afflict the agricultural community in particular. At the same time, I would not, as a city man, who never had any intimate association with rural life, like to have to represent a rural constituency. Probably Deputy Anthony finds himself in the same position. I think the proper thing to do is to put strictly rural areas into rural constituencies which will enable them to have a better chance of getting the representation to which they are entitled, rather than that such constituencies should be joined to strongly and distinctively urban areas such as the City of Cork.

Mr. Cosgrave

The case that has been made by the Minister's helper in this instance is that there are 40,000 rural inhabitants on the fringe of Cork City who have never been able to get a single representative amongst Cork Deputies to voice their opinions, or look after their interests. That is maintained and that is accepted. Forty thousand electors, a figure in excess of one-third of the entire electorate of Cork Borough constituency! That is maintained by the Minister's helper and accepted by the Minister himself. Well, of course, there is not much use in saying anything else after that. That figure represents a quota and probably three-fifths of another quota. That is eight-fifths of a quota, and they cannot get one single representative in Cork constituency! Very good. We shall accept that because we have it on such reliable authority. What are the facts in connection with this case? The Minister speaks about a rural area. What is the interpretation of "rural area"? Is it an impossibility for industrialists to live in a rural area? If industrialists live in a rural area, are they by reason of that fact to be put into a rural constituency although they are industrialists? Some of the most important industries in the South of Ireland are in these electoral divisions which have been carved out of Cork constituency and apparently the only reason for the change is that the Minister's helper has insisted on it, has got it, is delighted with it, and is now supporting it. As I gather from the two speeches to which we have just listened, the Minister says he cannot be asked, or should not be asked, to change these boundaries. That is the very thing we are asking him not to do. What is happening is that he is changing the existing boundaries. He has made as much change in connection with the existing constituency as it would be humanly possible to make.

Mr. O'Kelly

Oh, no.

Mr. Cosgrave

Let us examine it. Youghal is fired into Waterford.

Mr. O'Kelly

I could do a little more.

Mr. Cosgrave

It would be after dinner the Minister could do it, not in his sober senses. He is taking Youghal and putting it into Waterford, so as to please somebody else. He is taking a constituency in which there are five members and he is reducing it to four. He is giving Deputy Corry five members in his constituency, probably to ensure his election. The Deputy denies that. Perhaps I am wrong.

Mr. Corry

You are wrong.

Mr. Cosgrave

Perhaps his constituency would be wiped out altogether if it were not for that. The Deputy yielded up Youghal for some particular reason.

Mr. Corry

I beat your man there the last time.

Mr. Cosgrave

Observe the generosity. He is perfectly satisfied to yield Youghal because they were all his supporters ! Really the days of political martyrdom have not yet passed.

Mr. O'Kelly

If you heard him talk to me, you would not say that.

Mr. Cosgrave

The Minister has in his Department proposals for leaving the Cork borough constituency as it is, for changing the membership in East Cork from five to four, for leaving North Cork as it is and for reducing the representation in West Cork by one seat. That would mean two changes, and no carving, no dumping of Youghal into another constituency. That would leave Cork borough constituency as it stood. There is no necessity to degrade Cork borough. It is an important borough and there are many industries in it. Suburbs would be a better description for these districts than rural areas. The main question in connection with the district is, how are the majority of the people employed? The majority in these districts are industrialists. There is a wide area of 187 square miles in the constituency. This area is part and parcel of the metropolis and it should not be altered. There is no reason for altering it unless Deputy Corry has given us the reason and he must be satisfied.

Mr. Anthony

The Minister has admitted that there will be many anomalies in connection with the Bill when it becomes an Act, but I do not think the Minister has given the close attention or study to the Bill that he should have given to it. He admits that he has not consulted any member of his Party or any member of the House in regard to this Bill. I do not think that is a wise or a prudent thing to do, but I suppose he is the best judge of his own conduct in that regard. I can tell the Minister that there is one portion of this constituency and the only comparison of its position which I can make, if this proposal is carried out, is with that position which would be brought about if you put one side of O'Connell Street in County Kerry and the other in County Dublin, That is what the Minister is proposing to do. One portion of College Road will be in East Cork and another portion up near the Lough, the residents of which are all looked upon as city dwellers and are all working-class people, will be put into an agricultural area and Deputy Corry defends that. These people are not agriculturists. I can quite see Deputy Corry's argument about agriculturists, but what I am suggesting to the Minister, quite seriously, is that he should consult some members of his own Party. Even if he gave us the old Parliamentary borough, as we had it before the establishment of the Free State, that old borough would be something more representative of the City of Cork than the area proposed here.

There is a strong objection to taking out of the county borough of Cork the area of Ballincollig. It does not follow that the area of Ballincollig is an agricultural district. It is a residential district. Of course, there are many farmers in the area, but there are a very large number of people who have business houses in the city and who are workers in the city, people who enjoy all the amenities of city life. For that reason I would ask the Minister to postpone the operation of this measure until such time as he is able to make himself better acquainted with the facts, because I believe, in all fairness to the Minister, if he has a good case put up to him he will give consideration to it. That is all we ask, that he should consider this proposal having regard to the amenities of Cork. In one road you are putting a certain number of electors into the East Cork borough area, whereas the people on the other side of the road would be voting in the city elections. That is rather an anomalous state of affairs and I should like him to look into it.

General Mulcahy

The Minister says that he introduced this Bill without consulting any of his colleagues or any other members of the Dáil. It would appear from his attitude after introducing it into the Dáil and hearing some expressions of opinion on the matter, he is not prepared to budge an inch on the question as to where the boundaries of the constituency are in fact going to be. If that is a misrepresentation of the Minister's attitude, the House would like to hear more about it. The Minister says that if he accepts this amendment he will have to recast all the boundaries of the constituencies in County Cork. The position in fact is that, if he does not accept this amendment, he will have to recast all the boundaries of the existing constituencies in Cork. Apart from what he mentioned in connection with the rural part of the constituency, he gave as his reason that he had to make the population appropriate to the number of members in the different constituencies. The proposals from the point of view of population that he has enshrined in his draft of the constituencies are certainly no more nor no less appropriate from the point of view of population than the position would be if the boundaries of the constituencies were left as they are at present and with the modification based upon population in accordance with the Constitution brought about there. At the present moment the position in Cork is that you have a five-member constituency in the county borough, a three-member constituency in North Cork, a five-member constituency in West Cork and a five-member constituency in East Cork. Leaving the constituency boundaries as they are, the Constitution would require that the five-member constituency in West Cork would be reduced to a four-member constituency, and the five-member constituency in East Cork would be reduced to a four-member constituency, leaving in the area as a whole one five-member constituency, one three-member constituency and two four-member constituencies.

The Minister has boxed the compass so far as the boundaries are concerned. He provides an area with one five-member constituency, one three-member constituency and two four-member constituencies. If we take the principal constituencies as they are and compare the Minister's proposal with the proposals that would obtain if the boundaries were left as they are, and look at the ratio of population, we find that if the Cork borough boundary was left as it is with a five-member constituency you would have one member for every 23,700 of the population. The Minister asks us with the changed boundary to accept four members with one member for every 22,068 persons. In North Cork, if the boundaries were left as they are we would have, as at present, a three-member constituency with one member for every 20,534 of the population. The Minister asks us to accept one member for every 20,564 in a four-member constituency. As regards West Cork, left as it is, there would be a four-member constituency with 23,612, and the Minister asks us to take a five-member constituency with 23,056. In East Cork, left as it is we would have a four-member constituency with 22,799 persons per member, whereas he asks us to take a three-member constituency with 23,585. From the point of view of regulating the population to the membership, there is not the slightest scrap of difference between what the Minister puts before the House and what the position would be if there was not this confusing change made in the constituency boundaries. The Minister's approach to this matter is making the least possible change in the number of persons represented in the Dáil and there seems to be absolutely no reason for changing the constituency boundaries in Cork.

Mr. Corry

Deputy Cosgrave expressed some doubt about my statement that 40,000 of a rural population could not get a representative. Deputy Cosgrave ought to be aware that on three occasions the farmers ran a candidate, the late Mr. Tom Corcoran, and in the last election a very prominent farmer, Mr. Con Duggan, went up for election and was defeated. The city interests were always too strong; they always wiped out any hope the farmers had of getting representation. The rural people had very little chance of getting a representative from the rural areas. The two big Parties concentrated on the cities and naturally they chose their representatives from within the cities. They paid far more attention to 1,000 votes that they might get out of one lane in Cork rather than have to travel through three or four parishes in the surrounding country. During the past ten years I say the rural population has been neglected and unrepresented. I could show you sheaves of complaints from the rural districts. Deputy Anthony is anxious to get back the old borough of Cork. The old borough did not take in any portion of the rural district of Ballincollig, for which Deputy Anthony was arguing.

Mr. Anthony

I agree, but it went as far as Bishopstown.

Mr. Corry

What connection have the farmers with the area from Ivy House Bridge through Grenagh and into Donoughmore, except to curtsey to the candidates passing on the road or to say "Here he comes again" every five years at election times. "They are coming to see us again; the election is on." That is the only connection the inhabitants of the rural areas have with Cork City. They never wanted to have any connection with Cork City. They were, more or less, forced in just the same as the South Cork Board of Assistance. The unfortunate farmers there are forced to pay rates for the Cork City poor at the present time. Fully 99 per cent. of those people are delighted at this change. So far as Youghal is concerned, I think the Minister can enlighten Deputy Cosgrave in that respect. I have no desire to lose Youghal or to lose any portion of my constituency. When I saw my constituency after it was divided up I did not know it; it was scarred here, there and elsewhere. At the same time, I would have no hesitation in going to any part of Cork County and winning a seat there, even down to the area of Deputy O'Neill's Blue Shirts.

Mr. O'Neill

Keep out of that.

Mr. Corry

I am the finest missioner that could be got. I believe I could convert any kind of crowd. If there is any portion of that change that is justified, it is the change which enables the rural population surrounding Cork City to get somebody to represent them. We have many representatives in East Cork, but as to the farmers in Cork City constituency, we are looking after them and will continue to look after them, and even the workers in Dripsey and Blarney would be glad to come in, and I can promise that when Deputy Anthony visits Blarney in four or five years' time he will not know it. Undoubtedly there has been a portion of Cork City constituency, of about 40,000 people, that has been unrepresented for the past ten years. What did these city representatives know of their needs? Things were different in former times. When the late Maurice Healy and Tim Healy represented it they knew all about the farmers and the various Land Acts, but the present city representatives know nothing at all about the Land Acts or anything else. A rural representative must know the Land Acts and the needs of the rural population, and that is why any portion of the Redistribution of Seats Bill which is giving satisfaction tion to the real people concerned is the portion that is giving satisfaction to the rural population of what was known as Cork City.

Mr. Morrissey

I am surprised that Deputy Corry should be so hard on his colleagues, Deputies Dowdall and Flinn.

Mr. Corry

I am including the whole five representatives.

Mr. Morrissey

I am rather doubtful if they know anything about city life any more than about rural life. According to the Deputy's own speech, he should not represent Midleton or Mallow.

Mr. Corry

Come down.

Mr. Morrissey

The Deputy should take his own medicine. If he works on the lines that a city Deputy knows nothing about rural conditions, does not the same apply to a Deputy living on a farm—that he would know nothing about city or town conditions? If the Deputy knows about Midleton or Mallow he did not try to reply to the figures quoted by Deputy Mulcahy. Of course, as usual, in his funny way, the Deputy—and I agree that he tries to be funny—tried to draw a red herring across the facts. We want to hear, not from the Deputy, but from the Minister, a reply to what Deputy Mulcahy said as to whether these changes in Cork are justified on the population basis. Deputy Corry talked about the constituency of East Cork and the changes that were there. What we would like to know is what East Cork thinks now about Deputy Corry himself. He was very near being beaten there at the last election, so much so that the Fianna Fáil Party made a special push for him—he made such a bad show at the last election. I must say that I would be very sorry it Deputy Corry were not a member of this House because he is usually put up or is prompted, as he is being prompted now, when a case is to be made, but the Deputy usually does not require much prompting because whether the wind blows from the north, south, east or west, he will go with the wind. No answer is being given to Deputy Mulcahy because the Deputy does not want to be stressing here in the House the ignorance of his colleagues, Deputies Dowdall and Flinn, concerning rural conditions. Even if the Deputy does not like Deputy Flinn, he ought not to preach it here in front of everybody. If he does not think that Deputy Flinn knows much about rural conditions, what does he himself know about town or city conditions? I suggest to the Deputy that you cannot have a purely farmers' outlook in this country, cutting away from the towns. The Deputy wants to have a purely farmers' outlook in this country, but he ought to realise that most of the people in the villages and towns and cities were probably reared on the land and probably know as much about the land as Deputy Corry himself knows.

Mr. Corry

I am afraid I could not let Deputy Morrissey get away with some of the things he has said. I would inform him that so far as anybody can represent east or north or south I will represent them and will not let them down. That is straight enough for the Deputy now, and with regard to the last election, I did not need the help of the Knights of Columbanus.

Mr. Anthony

On a point of order, Sir, what is the use of introducing Columbanus or anybody else?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not understand the reference.

Mr. Morrissey

Neither does the Deputy.

Mr. Corry

Nor does St. Anthony, I suppose.

Mr. Morrissey

That is a bad break for the Deputy.

Mr. Corry

So far as that constituency is concerned, the facts are there and cannot be contradicted. Undoubtedly, those people had a grievance for the last ten years, and they had undoubted grievances. I am not concerned with Deputy Mulcahy's figures, whether it is a matter of 1,000 or not. If that means anything it means that that portion should be put in with Cork City. Deputy Mulcahy says that the present area of East Cork should fit in with the city, but undoubtedly the rural area of Cork City is entitled to have some voice in its representation, and up to the present it has practically none. It was disfranchised for ten years. It has a right to representation. As to Deputy Morrissey's remarks, I made my allusions general; I did not confine them to Deputies on one side of the House or the other. I said that the five representatives for Cork City never did represent that rural portion of the constituency. I made no distinction between them. They knew nothing about rural life. That was absolutely proved by the letter I saw to this man. When he wrote to a Deputy looking for a heifer loan the Deputy wrote back saying that he had been with the Department of Finance about the repayment of his Dáil Eireann Loan. As a matter of fact, I got that man repaid his Dáil Eireann Loan in 1928. The representation of that area by city representatives was unfair and unjust. It was high time that the Minister stepped in to give the people of that rural area some chance of getting representation, some opportunity of having a representative who would look after their interests and who would not be seen there only once in five years.

Mr. Anthony

If a farmer has not been elected to represent the agricultural interests in Cork borough it was the fault of the farmers, because they were sufficiently numerous to elect a representative and they did not do it. Therefore, the cause must be more deeply rooted than was suggested by Deputy Corry. I should like to know from Deputy Corry the name of that very intelligent Deputy who went to look about the repayment of a Dáil Eireann Loan when asked to get a heifer loan for a man. I hope I shall not be considered unpatriotic, a friend of Great Britain, or an Imperialist, if I suggest that a man of that type is not fit to be a member of any legislative body. We had to wait for Dáil Eireann to discover this genius who does not know the difference between D-á-i-l and h-e-i-f-e-r. I think that in these matters Deputy Corry cannot be blamed. Deputy Corry is usually put up by some-person on the Front Bench to say something which those sitting on the Front Bench do not want to stand over. I will say that Deputy Corry is not responsible. I think it is most unfair and unjust to Deputy Corry, because Deputy Corry is at least somewhat intelligent. He has wonderful gifts for electioneering and in that respect he is a wonderful asset to the Party. It is most unfair of those sitting on the Ministerial Bench to get Deputy Corry to stand up and cast those reflections on a Deputy. I did not think that we had in this House such an ignoramus as the person Deputy Corry described. Deputy Corry should make it his business to see that gentleman and get him sent down to one of his Fianna Fáil national teachers to have explained to him the difference between D-á-i-l and h-e-i-f-e-r.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."

The Committee divided:—Tá, 61; Níl, 38.

Tá

• Aiken, Frank.
• Bartley, Gerald.
• Beegan, Patrick.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Boland, Patrick.
• Concannon, Helena.
• Corkery, Daniel.
• Corry, Martin John.
• Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
• Crowley, Timothy.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Doherty, Hugh.
• Donnelly, Eamon.
• Flynn, Stephen.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• Geoghegan, James.
• Gibbons, Seán.
• Goulding, John.
• Hales, Thomas.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
• Houlihan, Patrick.
• Jordan, Stephen.
• Keely, Séamus P.
• Kehoe, Patrick.
• Kelly, James Patrick.
• Kelly, Thomas.
• Keyes, Michael.
• Kilroy, Michael.
• Kissane, Eamonn.
• Brady, Brian.
• Breathnach, Cormac.
• Breen, Daniel.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Cleary, Micheál.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick John.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• Maguire, Ben.
• Maguire, Conor Alexander.
• Moore, Séamus.
• Moylan, Seán.
• Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
• Norton, William.
• O'Briain, Donnchadh.
• O'Dowd, Patrick.
• O'Grady, Seán.
• O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• Pearse, Margaret Mary.
• Rice, Edward.
• Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
• Ryan, James.
• Ryan, Martin.
• Ryan, Robert.
• Sheridan, Michael.
• Traynor, Oscar.
• Victory, James.
• Ward, Francis C.

Níl

• Anthony, Richard.
• Bennett, George Cecil.
• Bourke, Séamus.
• Broderick, William Joseph.
• Brodrick, Seán.
• Burke, James Michael.
• Burke, Patrick.
• Byrne, Alfred.
• Cosgrave, William T.
• Costello, John Aloysius.
• Curran, Richard.
• Davis, Michael.
• Davitt, Robert Emmet.
• Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
• Dolan, James Nicholas.
• Doyle, Peadar S.
• Fagan, Charles.
• Fitzgerald, Desmond.
• Holohan, Richard.
• Keating, John.
• Lynch, Finian.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• McGovern, Patrick.
• McMenamin, Daniel.
• Morrisroe, James.
• Morrissey, Daniel.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Nally, Martin.
• O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
• O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
• O'Mahony, The.
• O'Neill, Eamonn.
• O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
• O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
• Reidy, James.
• Rice, Vincent.
• Rogers, Patrick James.

Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Little and Traynor; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.

Question declared carried.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-morrow.