Vol. 53 No. 7
I move:
Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £10,600 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha í rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1935, chun Deontais-i-gCabhair do Thaighde agus d'Fhorbairt maidir le Baiterí Leictreachais.
That a sum not exceeding £10,600 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for a Grant-in-Aid for Electrical Battery Research and Development.
Could not the Minister tell us something about this Vote? We would like to know what distance the Drumm Battery has got in its development, or are there any secrets about the matter which would preclude discussion? Would it be giving secrets about the Drumm Battery if we were to discuss the matter here in the House?
I did not think it was necessary to make any statement. This Vote is only in pursuance of the policy carried on for the last three or four years.
There has been a suggestion—perhaps it was acted upon— that one of the street cleansing vehicles of the Dublin Corporation should be fitted with a Drumm Battery. Has the Drumm Battery got to that stage? Or would it, perhaps, be better not to discuss the thing further?
What does the Deputy want to know exactly?
Has the battery been fitted to one of the Dublin Corporation cleansing vehicles, for instance?
It is hoped to do that this year.
Is the Minister satisfied that the Drumm Battery has got to that stage?
If it goes near the Corporation it will be ruined.
It is a pity the Minister for Industry and Commerce is not present. Perhaps he would be sent for. There would be no Drumm Battery except for the local authority.
What local authority?
The Dublin County Council which had the foresight to grant scholarships. It was a scholarship of the Dublin County Council that brought out Mr. Drumm, and until about three years ago it was on a Dublin scholarship that Professor Drumm worked.
And if the Deputy had his way there would be no rates to pay for the scholarship this year.
The Minister's colleague came here and talked about the inefficiency of county councils. That is one for Ministers present, and one for a Minister absent, too. Of course the Dublin Corporation produced the Vice-President and also Deputy T. Kelly.
If the Deputy had read the monthly report, circulated through the city manager, he would have learned something about this matter. Did the Deputy read it?
Yes.
I do not think the Deputy did, because if he read it he would see it announced that one of the vehicles belonging to the Dublin Corporation will be run by the Drumm Battery, and if the experiment is successful the city manager will have all the vehicles the Corporation owns run by the Drumm Battery. That is something definite about the Drumm Battery.
The Deputy ought to know that in our long discussions with the French firm that got the contract for the cleansing of the streets of Dublin, this matter was discussed exhaustively and in detail. I think Deputy Kelly was present on the occasion. It is no information for me to hear what he has just said.
The Deputy spoke as one who did not know anything about it.
I think it is rather strange when introducing a Vote for a Minister simply to read out the terms of the Vote and leave it at that. I think our people are entitled to get some particulars in regard to the expenditure of money, whatever the purpose be, if it does not involve the giving away of any secrets. On an Estimate for the Drumm Battery I think we are entitled to hear something as to how far progress has been made. We ought to be told whether it is likely to be satisfactory and so on. When a Vote was asked for this battery some time ago the House and the country were given some information as to how it was likely to get on. To-day we are told nothing about it. The Vote is introduced and simply left at that. I do not think that is quite proper. We should at least have a statement from the responsible Minister as to why more money is wanted.
I think it is rather satisfactory, even at this late hour of the day, to hear from the benches opposite eulogies as to the great possibilities of the Drumm battery. It was not so long ago that the Drumm battery was described as one of the greatest white elephants in the world. In spite of that declaration it is satisfactory to know, now, that the Drumm battery is going to be something that will have very satisfactory results. We hope so, and so far as we can judge from the experiments and the information that comes to our ears, it will be so. I think it is due to the House that some information should be given to it if it does not involve disclosing any secrets. We were asked to vote a sum of £10,000 last year. There is an increase in the Estimate this year of £600. No reason has been advanced for that increase. It might be well to let the House know what the Drumm battery costs the country, and to give it an idea of how long these annual charges will appear in the Estimates for the battery, and what the amount will possibly reach before the battery has achieved the great success we all hope for. I think the Minister might let us have some little information upon these points. It is a practical matter and we ought to have the information. Apart from certain references made some time ago, the Drumm battery is a non-contentious and non-Party matter.
The title of the Vote will inform Deputies as to the position in respect of this matter. The Vote is entitled "Electrical Battery Development" and the money which is being asked is for the purpose of enabling the development work which has been proceeding upon this battery to be continued. The battery is still in the development stage.
It is hoped in time that this money will be recouped in some form. Is not that the idea?
Undoubtedly. The sole reason we are proceeding with this invention is that we believe it has very considerable commercial possibilities and that, when the stage is reached at which commercial exploitation becomes possible, the State will get an adequate return for the money which it is now spending on development. The money is required during the present year mainly for the completion of the research work on which the company and the company's experts are engaged, for completing the system of patents which is necessary to protect our rights in foreign countries, to continue the operations of the Drumm trains, Nos. 1 and 2, which are in operation, and for working out processes of manufacture.
No provision is made in the Estimate for contingencies, although circumstances may arise during the year which may necessitate urgent expenditure such as an order for batteries from some firm or country, which order would have to be fulfilled. The board estimate that it will be necessary in the present year to manufacture one lorry-battery, as an experiment, one train-lighting battery, two or three bus starter and lighting batteries, as well as a Diesel starter battery. These works are being undertaken to test the suitability of the battery for various purposes, and it is to finance activities of that kind that the money is required. There have been a number of inquiries concerning the battery from different countries and very exhaustive tests have been carried out under the direction of the firm of transport engineers who are advising the company concerning the battery. The company hope to be able to complete their development plans during the course of this season, in which case the question of the manner of control and the procedure for financing activities of this kind in the future would arise for consideration. At some stage, it is inevitable that this property of ours will be placed in charge of an organisation which will have much closer resemblance to an ordinary commercial organisation than the present company, which is entirely financed and maintained by annual Votes in the Dáil. At some stage, it may be necessary to provide capital in the ordinary way and to allow the company to proceed with commercial development. That stage may be reached in the present year but that will depend on the result of the investigations and the development work which are being undertaken. The principal item covered by the Vote, apart from the items I have mentioned, is provision for salaries and working expenses. The Board maintains a research staff of certain dimensions and employs fitters, mechanics and workmen in their factory in order to carry out battery-construction work. A large part of the Vote is intended to meet this expenditure.
Is the Minister in a position to state how much money has been spent to date in the development of this invention and what are the contingent liabilities, to date, in connection with the battery?
I cannot give the exact figures but the Deputy can get them from the revenue returns. No new contingent liabilities have been accepted since last year and the position in that regard has, therefore, not been changed. The total amount expended since 1929 will be found in the revenue accounts for the year.
Did the Minister say that people from other countries have access to the trials and experiments in connection with this battery?
Not always. Certain people interested in transport in other countries have been invited by the Board of the Drumm Battery Company to attend trials of the battery and a number of them have come from time to time. They have been given an opportunity of getting all the information it is considered desirable they should have concerning the performance of the battery.
Is the Minister satisfied that adequate steps are taken to ensure that none of the secrets of the invention will get out?
We are seeking patents and, in essence, that means that we reveal the information in return for monopoly right for a number of years. That is the essence of patent law. Somebody who has made a discovery or invented some process gives the benefit of his knowledge to the public and, in return, gets monopoly right for a period. In the patents that we have taken out in various countries, we have set out in detail the peculiarities of the battery and the circumstances which make it a valuable commercial property.
I do not refer to anything done in that way. What I mean is the precaution taken to ensure that no ideas will be stolen, so to speak.
The only effective safeguard we can have is the patent.
If there are certain secrets, keen engineering observers may get so close to them as to be able to utilise them in their own countries without a patent. The first invention of Mr. Drumm suffered in that way.
I am not aware of that.
