Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 22 Jun 1934

Vol. 53 No. 8

Adjournment Debate—Gárda Orders on Use of Firearms.

General Mulcahy

The newspapers of the 24th May report a statement made by the Chief Superintendent of the Gárda Síochána in the District Court at Naas regarding the use of firearms and the orders that the Gárda Síochána had with regard to the use of firearms. The statement made by the Chief Superintendent is so extraordinary, with all the danger that exists to the general peace of the country as well as to the lives of the citizens, that I asked the Minister to make a pronouncement on that statement. The Irish Times reports the statement to this effect:—

"The general attitude of the crowd was so threatening that he was about to give orders to plain clothes men to produce arms, which would be a serious thing, but police orders were if arms were produced to use them, and use them with deadly effect."

The Irish Independent reports:—

"Referring to the hostile nature of the crowd, the witness said: ‘I did not want to use firearms, because I don't like to use firearms against any section of the Irish people, but I was in the position that I must vindicate the law. Our instructions are that if we draw firearms we must use them and shoot to effect.'"

The Irish Press reports on the same day:—

"Referring to the hostile attitude of the crowd, he said: ‘I did not want to use firearms, because I don't like to use firearms against any section of the Irish people, but I was in the position that I must vindicate the law. Our instructions are that if we draw firearms we must use them and shoot to effect.'"

There is, perhaps, no more important officer in the Gárda Síochána than the Chief Superintendent of an area. More and more as the weeks pass by we see disturbances of one kind or another deliberately organised throughout the country, and more and more, therefore, the persons who go to attend meetings, persons who attend sales such as the sales at Naas— even ordinary persons in the streets— are liable to the dangers, whatever they are, that may arise in connection with those meetings. We have here a statement made for the first time, so far as I can recollect, regarding the use of firearms by the Gárda Síochána. That statement is to the effect that if arms are produced they are to be used with deadly effect. We find the first suggestion of this made at a sheriff's sale for cattle—cattle that were seized for the payment of land annuities. When the Minister is asked to clear the atmosphere, and to let everybody know what orders are issued to the police regarding the use of firearms, he does not admit that the interpretation put on those orders by the Chief Superintendent is correct. He was not prepared on the 29th May to state the steps that he was going to take to put the matter right if the matter was wrong. Yesterday, when questioned further, he said that he had simply referred the matter to the Commissioner of the Gárda Síochána to take such steps as he considers necessary.

The general condition of affairs in the country is such that this House requires to know from the Minister for what purpose firearms are carried by the police, and what orders the police have with regard to the use of firearms in the case of disturbances. If the Minister will not give the information asked for in the latter question, will he say why he thinks this House, or the people, should be left in any doubt as to what those instructions are, because the interpretation put by the Chief Superintendent in Naas on his instructions are such that this is not a mere order, like the Mitchelstown one, "Don't hesitate to shoot," nor is it a mere order, "Do not hesitate to kill"; it is an order that if arms are produced by the police they must see that they fire to kill, and that they must be used with deadly effect. We have had different cases of disturbances throughout the country recently. We had a disturbance in Cork last night, where a hostile crowd endeavoured to interfere with the holding of a second meeting by members of the Fine Gael Party. All we learn from the newspapers reports with regard to that is that members of Fine Gael were attacked there, while the Irish Press reports that some Blue-shirts were arrested. On a recent Sunday in Drogheda, incidents took place which are described by the local Press as regrettable manifestations and disgraceful scenes and described the day as being “for the third time the occasion of such disgraceful scenes in Drogheda that they ran counter to our citizens' long and honourable record of tolerance and fair play.” There were 250 members of the Gárda Síochána drafted in, because there was a definitely organised counter-demonstration —a counter-demonstration to what was called an Imperialistic demonstration, the Imperialistic demonstration being a meeting of the organisation of the Opposition Party in the State, exercising its normal political rights. There were 250 police there. People were injured; police were injured; shop windows were smashed and motor cars were smashed, and the Minister for Justice tells us that the police are not in a position to identify any of the people guilty of these offences.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is getting away from the question on the Order Paper which deals with the case in Naas and with instructions to the Guards.

General Mulcahy

There is no suggestion that where these most disorderly scenes took place in Drogheda, the police either were armed or that they wanted to produce arms. Where a barrack was threatened with attack at Mohill and where the District Justice, after hearing the case, said that but for the action of the police Superintendent, the barrack would have been taken and burnt to the ground—and the police Superintendent definitely stated that there was an intention to take the barrack and to drive the Guards out of Mohill——

An Ceann Comhairle

The question on the Order Paper asks if the Minister will state whether he has made further inquiries into the Naas incident and what instructions were issued to the Guards to prevent danger to life by misinterpretation of orders. I do not see how incidents at Mohill or any other place, which occurred since the Naas incident, can come into that question.

General Mulcahy

The position with regard to Naas is that there was a sheriff's sale and a number of farmers from the surrounding districts came in for that sale and a disturbance arose in connection with the taking of the cattle. The description of the scenes given in the Press is that they were of such a violent nature that the Superintendent said he nearly gave instructions to produce arms, and that if they had produced arms, they would have to use them with deadly effect. I am seeking information from the Minister as to what exactly the instructions to the Gárda are, and why it is necessary to have arms on these occasions and why, if the Chief Superintendent can say that he has instructions to fire with deadly effect, the Minister cannot tell us whether that is so or not. Firearms have been produced by the Gárda Síochána, and there is no record of these firearms having been produced on any occasion but on the occasion of a sheriff's sale. Firearms were produced in the case of Clonmel, and my argument with the Minister is that, whatever the instructions are, these firearms have only been produced on occasions on which farmers assembled together in connection with matters which closely affect themselves. The sheriff is very busy throughout the country, and he is getting busier every day, and the attitude of the police generally with regard to the assembly of farmers on these occasions is of a provocative nature, and they say that they have instructions to shoot to kill.

On the 6th of June there was a sale in Clonmel. There were 150 police in the pound, but only 50 farmers were allowed into the pound. They had to give up sticks and anything else they had when they went in there, and when a bidder did bid for some of the cattle which belonged to a Mr. Quinlan, Mr. Quinlan, an old man, in an excited way, hit the bidder. He was knocked down on the ground with a stick, and revolvers were produced.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has asked a question with regard to Naas, and I might say, at the outset, that certain conditions govern the raising of questions on the adjournment. It should be a specific case, a particular grievance, raised for the purpose of eliciting further information, and it was recognised by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges that matters involving Government policy or the policy of a Department should not be so raised, because there is no finality as no decision can be reached, and because there cannot be proper discussion, the Minister only getting ten minutes to reply. It has, therefore, been the practice that when a question is so raised, discussion is confined to a specific case and may not cover the whole field of similar instances.

General Mulcahy

I am prepared to give the Minister the remainder of the time to clear the matter, as you say, by putting him these questions: Does he not know that there are disturbances in different parts of the country and does he not know that the meetings of farmers who come to these sheriff's sales are meetings of men labouring under a very serious sense of injustice and that there have been circumstances in connection with these sales that are provocative? Knowing all that and knowing how little use or how little threat is made of the use of arms in many cases where their use would be warranted, it is absolutely incumbent upon him to let this House and the people of the country who are affected know what orders the Gárda Síochána have with regard to the carrying of arms and why it is possible for a Chief Superintendent of the Gárda Síochána to say "We have instructions that if we produce arms, they are to be used with deadly effect."

Minister for Justice (Mr. Ruttledge)

I tried to answer the Deputy yesterday in the ordinary way. The Deputy is aware that these instructions are issued by the Commissioner of the Gárda and not by me. The last instructions that were issued to the Gárda with regard to the use of firearms were issued by General O'Duffy on 24th November, 1933. The memo in this respect is very long— it deals with a number of matters and I do not propose to go through it because I do not want to put the whole document on the records of the House —and it set out, as best it could be set out at the time, what the position was and warned the Guards as to the conditions in which they should use firearms. There has been no attempt by the Commissioner or anybody else, from that time to this, to alter or add to in any way the instructions which the Gárda had under that memo. If the Deputy saw that memo he would see the difficulty there is in giving definite instructions as to the circumstances in which guns should be used.

Now, in regard to this particular matter at Naas I think the Deputy is getting excited about nothing. On the basis of a newspaper report of a statement made by a Gárda officer in the course of a district court proceeding, the Deputy seems to conjure up some vision of police officers running amuck and shooting indiscriminately at innocent people. The Deputy can make his mind easy as to that. Every Deputy in the House can make his mind easy as to it. If any police officer or any member of the Gárda discharges a gun or fires in circumstances that are not warranted he is amenable to the law and will be dealt with as any ordinary citizen would be dealt with. He is not above the law. Every Gárda officer is quite conversant with the position of things set forth in the memo.

It is very hard to define the exact circumstances—that difficulty was appreciated in the memo—in which the Gárda would be justified in using firearms. That was pointed out in this particular memo at the time. It is very hard to lay down a definite rule. But the sense of the instructions that were issued then to the Gárdai was this— that they are not entitled to use firearms except as a very last resource. There was this sense also to be taken from the instructions—that if guns are to be produced as a very last resource, then they are to be used with effect. That is the sense I take from the instructions issued at the time and that is the sense that was taken by the Chief Commissioner. That is the general policy that has obtained in every country in the world. It was pointed out in the memo that the producing of firearms without using them to effect has sometimes led to loss of life and bloodshed. It was pointed out that the people get it into their heads that these guns are not to be used and the position is much worse than if they were used at first with effect.

It is stated in the memo that if people get accustomed to the Gardaí producing guns and never using them, then suddenly if a position arises in which the guns are used, more harm is done than would have been the case if the people had always understood and realised that when guns are produced the situation has got to such a pass that the guns are to be used. That is in cases where there is such a desperate situation that "an ordinary riot" would not suffice to describe it. It has got then to such a desperate point that the guns are produced and used. It has got to be made clear to the people that when the guns are produced, they are to be used to effect. That is the sense of the instructions. I think it is clear to anybody that there is justification for that position. It was explained very clearly in the memo at the time what the position was. The danger was that if people saw guns produced they made up their minds and said "Oh, they are only drawing these guns; they will not use them", but in such cases when the guns are used suddenly, innocent people are shot down. Every Deputy in this House may be perfectly clear that it is in only absolutely desperate situations that the guns are to be produced and if they are produced in such a situation, they are to be used with effect.

The House adjourned at 2.20 p.m. until 3 o'clock on Wednesday, 27th June, 1934.