Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) (Amendment) Bill, 1934—Money Resolution. - Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) (Amendment) Bill, 1934—Final Stages. – Dáil Éireann (8th Dáil) – Thursday, 19 Jul 1934

General Mulcahy

I do not think that this whole question of housing can be glossed over as lightly as either the Minister for Local Government, when introducing the measure, or the Minister in charge of the Bill to-day, dealt with it. No matter what the Minister may say, both in urban and in rural districts the building of houses for private persons, in spite of greatly increased grants, has been very much smaller during the past two years than during the previous two years. I am not putting this to the Minister as the record of his Government as against the record of another. I am simply facing very plain facts. This is a matter of very great importance to the people from the housing point of view. It is of equally great importance from the financial point of view, both for the taxpayer and the ratepayer, and to the people who have to pay rents. The Minister, as I have said, has a very much increased staff on housing. He has the assistance of a Housing Board, but it does not seem to me that any really vital aspect of the incidence of his housing policy on the housing situation has been examined at all. I appreciate the Minister's difficulty in dealing with this matter to-day, as he has not been accustomed to deal with the housing side of things. But I do want to press on the Minister and on his Department the points that I raised, because it seems to me, from some remarks the Minister made, that it is a most praiseworthy thing to say: "We will get any amount of money for housing; there is any amount of people wanting houses, and we will get any amount of money to give them houses." I think that is an entirely irresponsible way of facing the matter when you take into consideration the two years' experience that the Ministry have had and the machinery that is at their disposal. Their neglect to use that machinery to examine the situation to give us more satisfactory and more detailed information is a sign of irresponsibility on their part, too.

Mr. Boland

If the Deputy wishes I can give him a detailed account of the progress made along the western sea-board—in Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Sligo, Roscommon and Clare.

General Mulcahy

We would love to hear it.

Mr. Boland

I will give the Deputy a statement showing the position up to the end of June, 1934. It is:—

"Local Authorities.—Houses are in course of construction in 79 districts, 6,666 houses; tenders are accepted but work not yet begun, 2,752 houses; tenders have been invited in respect of 29 schemes, 3,862 houses; lands have been acquired and plans approved in respect of 29 schemes, 5,511 houses; schemes being prepared, 6,261 houses.

"During the month 571 houses were completed by local authorities, which makes a total of 6,683 completed since the 1st April, 1932. Houses were also begun in the following districts:—Limerick C.B., 250; Templemore U.D., 38; Dublin B.O.H. and P.A., 29; Buncrana U.D., 30; Louth B.O.H. and P.A., 25; Wicklow B.O.H. and P.A., 19; Dun Laoghaire Borough, 18; Tipperary (N.R.) B.O.H. and P.A., 15; Waterford B.O.H. and P.A., 13 Westmeath B.O.H. and P.A. 11; Belturbet U.D., 6; Galway U.D., 6; Clones U.D., 6; Cashel U.D., 4. Total, 470 houses begun during the month. Number of men employed on housing schemes, 7,828.

"Private Persons and Public Utility Societies.—Certificates of approval for the erection of 195 new houses and the reconstruction of 352 existing houses were issued during the month, making a total of 10,409 new houses and 5,007 reconstructed houses, i.e., 15,416 houses in all since the passing of the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1932.

"The position at the end of the month of June was as follows:—

Private Persons and Public Utility Societies:—

Number of Houses Approved for Erection.	Number of Houses Erected	Number of Houses in Progress
Urban		4,361	Urban		2,420	Urban		1,941
Rural:			Rural:			Rural:
New Houses	6,048		New Houses	2,453		New Houses	3,595
Reconstruction	5,007	11,055	Reconstruction	841	3,294	Reconstruction	4166	7,761
TOTALS		15,416			5,714			9,702

Local Authorities:—

	No. of Houses Erected from 1/4/'32 to 30/6/'34		No. of Houses in Progress
Urban	5,128	Urban	4,507
Rural	1,555	Rural	2,159
TOTAL	6,683	TOTAL	6,666

Summary:—

URBAN AND RURAL AREAS	Schemes in Progress	Schemes being Formulated
Number of Houses in Progress	Number of Men Employed	Number of Houses
Carlow	County	153	221	444
Cavan	,,	88	154	74
Clare	,,	106	130	532
Cork	,,	300	366	1,169
Donegal	,,	74	54	650
Dublin	,,	1,795	1,472	4,050
Galway	,,	197	207	798
Kerry	,,	274	329	471
Kildare	,,	138	226	542
Kilkenny	,,	111	212	586
Laoighis	,,	103	100	876
Leitrim	,,	10	22	162
Limerick	,,	386	302	616
Longford	,,	49	66	180
Louth	,,	355	409	176
Mayo	,,	98	84	554
Meath	,,	163	446	516
Monaghan	,,	114	164	233
Offaly	,,	78	178	96
Roscommon	,,	59	80	134
Sligo	,,	35	30	508
Tipperary N.R.	,,	517	482	—
Tipperary S.R.	,,	169	293	1,184
Waterford	,,	306	527	510
Westmeath	,,	206	234	206
Wexford	,,	328	739	317
Wicklow	,,	454	301	50
	TOTALS	6,666	7,828	15,634

General Mulcahy

Does it say what date that refers to?

Mr. Boland

The month of June in the present year. On the Second Reading I understand, the Deputy said pretty definitely that we are deceiving the public bodies, or not enlightening them sufficiently as to the liabilities they were incurring in the building of labourers' cottages. The best way to answer that is to read a letter that was sent to Kilkenny Board of Health and Public Assistance in reference to that question. The letter will deal with the suggestion that public bodies have been acting without knowing what they were doing, or that they were in any way misled by the Government. This is the letter:—

"I am directed by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health to state that he has had before him representations made by the deputation from the Kilkenny Board of Health and Public Assistance which attended at this Department on the 12th instant in regard principally to the rate of interest at present charged on loans issued from the Local Loans Fund for the purpose of the Labourers Acts, and I am to state that the rate of subsidy provided under Section 6 of the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1932, viz., 60 per cent. of the annual loan charges incurred by local authorities in the carrying out of schemes under the Labourers Acts, was framed in the light of the present rate of interest on loans with a view to securing a fair division between central and local funds of the loss entailed in the provision of labourers' cottages and the letting of them at rents which the tenants can afford to pay. In view of this the board must bear in mind that any reduction in interest rates which may be possible at any future date in connection with loans issued from the Local Loans Fund will necessitate a review of the rate of subsidy at present payable under Section 6 of the Act of 1932.

"As was pointed out to the deputation it is possible for the board of health at present to provide approximately 220 cottages at a cost of £300 per cottage and let them at a rent of 1/9 per week plus rates without involving greater loss on the rates than 1d. in the £. In calculating this loss provision has been included for a sum of £3 per annum per cottage to cover the cost of maintenance and administration.

"As was further shown to the deputation the provision of loans at a lower rate of interest would not effect any great reduction in the local authorities' loss on the provision of the cottages having regard to the fact that 60 per cent. of the loan charges are payable by the State. The annuity on £300 borrowed on the present terms is £20 of which the board pays (40 per cent.) £8. If the loan were made available with interest at 4¾ per cent. per annum the annuity on £300 would be £17 13s. 6d. of which the board would pay (40 per cent.) £7 1s. 4d. This reduction in loan charges would on a scheme of 400 cottages amount to the equivalent of about one farthing in the £.

"In these circumstances the Minister would be glad if the board would reconsider the question of the rents to be charged for the cottages recently completed and at present in course of construction as well as for cottages to be provided under the board's new scheme."

The following letter was addressed to Meath Board of Health and Public Assistance:—

2nd February, 1934.

"With reference to your communication of the 12th ultimo relative to the proposal of the Meath Board of Health and Public Assistance to fix at 3/- per week the rents of the cottages at present being provided by the board under the Labourers Acts, I am directed by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health to state that he is not prepared to approve of the rents in question as he is satisfied that such rents would not be within the paying capacity of the persons to whom preference is to be given in the letting of the cottages under the terms of this Department's circular No. 114/1933.

"Estimating the all-in cost per cottage at £300 and including an annual sum of £2 10s. per cottage to cover the board's outlay on maintenance and administration the State subsidy of 60 per cent. of the annual loan charges would enable the 257 cottages already authorised in the county health district to be let at a rent (exclusive of rates) of 1/8 per week with a loss of .7 of a penny in the £ on the rates.

"In the circumstances, I am to request that the board will reconsider the question of the rents with a view to submitting revised proposals for the Minister's sanction."

The approved rents generally ran about 1/8 per week, exclusive of rates, and in some areas they are 2/-. In Dublin County a rent of 4/- has been approved. In Westmeath, for a limited number of cottages adjoining the town of Athlone, a rent of 3/- was approved, but generally the rent may be taken as not exceeding 2/- weekly. At this rent local authorities can provide 100 cottages at an all-in cost of £300 per cottage and making an allowance of £3 per annum to cover maintenance and administration the loss to the rates will in no case be as much as 1d. in the £. In some cases it will be as low as .05 and .08 of a penny in the £. In most cases it will be about one halfpenny in the £. If Deputies wish I can deal with the points referred to.

General Mulcahy

The Minister stated that he had a report of the achievements in the western areas. It would be important to hear it.

Mr. Boland

I will review briefly the progress made in the areas specifically referred to by Deputy Mulcahy in the debate on the Second Reading of this Bill. The Deputy referred to the facts disclosed in the census of 1926 regarding the housing conditions in the West of Ireland from Donegal to Kerry, including Leitrim, Sligo, Roscommon, Mayo, Galway, Clare and Kerry. In Donegal county 638 houses were provided by private persons up to March, 1932. In the past two years 119 houses have been completed, including four by the local authority, and 296 houses are in progress, including eight by the local authority, making a total of 415 houses completed or in progress during the past two years, as against 638 completed during the preceding ten years. In addition, tenders have been invited by the local authority for a further 20 houses, and lands have been acquired and plans approved for a further 558 houses. Taking the urban areas in Donegal, we find that during the period to March, 1932, 12 houses were completed in the Buncrana Urban District. Since then only two houses have been completed and one in progress, but tenders have been invited for 64 houses, so that it will not be long before the achievement of 12 houses in the ten years to March, 1932, will be completely eclipsed. In Bundoran 8 houses were completed to March, 1932, and 13 houses have been completed since then. In Letterkenny Urban District nine houses were completed to March, 1932, and 37 houses have been completed since then. In Ballyshannon town nine houses were completed to March, 1932, and 36 houses are at present in progress.

In Sligo rural 466 houses were completed by private persons up to March, 1932, and none by the local authority. Since then 117 houses have been completed, including 21 by the local authority, and 241 houses are in progress, including 35 by the local authority, making a total of 358 houses completed or in progress during the past two years, as against 466 in the preceding ten years. In Sligo urban, 165 houses were completed in the period to March, 1932, including 111 by the local authority; since then 204 houses have been completed in the urban district, including 193 by the local authority. In addition to this the Sligo Corporation have invited tenders for a further 262 houses. In Leitrim 474 houses were provided during the period to March, 1932; since then 79 houses have been completed and 196 are in progress, making a total of 275 houses completed or in progress during the past two years, as against 474 in the preceding ten years. In addition, tenders have been invited for 125 houses.

In Roscommon rural, 515 houses were completed to March, 1932; since then 176 houses have been completed, while 425 houses are in progress, making a total of 601 houses completed or in progress during the past two years as against 515 completed during the preceding ten years. In addition, tenders have been invited for 100 houses. In Boyle town, six houses were completed during the period to March, 1932. One house has been completed since then, but 24 houses are in course of construction, making a total of 25 houses completed or in course of erection during the past two years as against six in the preceding ten years. In addition, lands have been acquired and plans approved for a further 34 houses. In Roscommon town, 30 houses were provided in the period to March, 1932, while during the past two years only two houses have been completed and three in course of erection.

In Mayo rural, 1,622 houses were completed during the ten years to March, 1932; since then 551 houses have been completed and 639 houses are in course of erection, making a total of 1,190 houses completed or in course of erection during the past two years as against 1,622 completed during the preceding ten years. In Ballina, 58 houses were completed to March, 1932; since then 152 houses have been completed and 24 are in course of erection, making a total of 176 houses. In Castlebar urban, 46 houses were completed to March, 1932; 14 houses have been completed since and 101 houses are in course of erection, making a total of 115 houses completed or in course of erection during the past two years as against 46 completed during the preceding ten years. In Westport urban, 21 houses were completed to March, 1932; 31 houses have been completed since then and a further 21 houses are in course of erection. In addition, tenders have been invited for a further 60 houses.

In Galway rural, 978 houses were completed to March, 1932; 140 houses have been completed since then and 556 houses are in course of erection, making a total of 696 houses completed or in course of erection during the past two years as against 978 houses completed in the preceding ten years. In Ballinasloe urban, 36 houses were completed to March, 1932; 45 houses were completed during the past two years and three are in course of erection. In Galway urban, 270 houses were completed to March, 1932; 178 have been completed since then and 240 are in course of erection, making a total of 418 completed or in course of erection during the past two years as against 270 completed during the preceding ten years. In addition, tenders have been invited for a further 76 houses. In Loughrea town, nine houses were completed to March, 1932; two houses have been completed since then and 14 houses are in course of erection. In addition, lands have been acquired and plans approved for a further 13 houses. In Tuam, 114 houses were completed to March, 1932; 43 houses have been completed since that date and three houses are at present in course of erection.

In Clare rural 559 houses were completed to March, 1932, and since then 165 houses have been completed and 228 houses are in course of erection, making a total of 393 houses completed or in progress during the past two years as against 559 completed in the preceding ten years. In addition, tenders have been invited for a further 34 houses. In Ennis urban 82 houses were completed to March, 1932; 14 houses have been completed since that date, 76 houses are in course of erection, making a total of 90 houses completed or in progress during the past two years as against 82 completed in the preceding ten years. In Kilrush urban 101 houses were completed to March, 1932; since then 64 houses have been completed and 34 houses are in course of erection making a total of 98 houses completed or in course of erection during the past two years as against 101 houses completed in the preceding ten years. In Kilkee 33 houses were completed to March, 1932; 10 houses have been completed since then and 5 houses are in course of erection. In addition, tenders have been invited for 32 houses.

In Kerry rural 862 houses were completed to March, 1932; since then 248 houses have been completed and 657 are in course of erection, making a total of 905 houses completed or in course of erection in the past two years as against 862 completed during the preceding ten years. In addition lands have been acquired and plans approved for a further 254 houses. In Killarney urban 71 houses were completed during the period to March, 1932; since then 78 houses have been completed and 4 are in course of erection. In Listowel urban 54 houses were completed to March, 1932; since then 86 houses have been completed and 44 are in course of erection. In Tralee urban 79 houses were completed to March, 1932; since then 44 houses have been completed and 194 are in course of erection.

That deals with the western area which Deputy Mulcahy said was not properly dealt with, and which he said was not availing of the facilities of the Act. I can proceed further with the statement if he likes, but I think I have gone far enough to show that considerable progress has been made, and that more is being made now, and that by accelerating the rate of progress by extending the time, we shall do very much better than we have done up to the present. I think that up to the present we have done very well indeed. As I have said before, I think that Deputy Mulcahy would be the last person to wake up and recognise that, but I think that even he must recognise eventually that very considerable progress indeed has been effected. I am quite satisfied, of course, that the whole problem will not be settled by this Bill. It will take a very long time to settle that problem, but very considerable progress has been made towards the solution of it and under this Bill, which prolongs the period very much more, we are quite satisfied that further considerable progress will be made.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This Bill is certified by the Ceann Comhairle as a Money Bill according to Article 35 of the Constitution.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 19 Jul 1934