asked the Minister for Agriculture if he is aware that licences for the export of cattle are now regarded as saleable and transferable instruments, and if he will take steps to put a stop to the scandal of trafficking in licences and in future see that licences are issued only to bona fide producers and sellers of cattle for export, and insist on their being strictly non-transferable and returnable to his Department if not used by the persons to whom they are issued.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Cattle Licences.
Dr. Ryan
I would refer the Deputy to the debate on the Supplementary Estimate for Export Bounties and Subsidies in this House on the 6th and 7th March, in the course of which I dealt with the points raised in the question. I do not think I need add anything to my statements on that occasion.
I read the report to which the Minister refers very carefully, but I understood that a good many of these licences did not come through the Minister?
Dr. Ryan
They all came through my Department.
Will the Minister say why some of these licences are handled and sold by persons who never bought or sold a beast in their lives?
Dr. Ryan
We discussed that very fully on the date I referred to. It is rather difficult to give the different reasons and the conditions under which these licences change hands, but I dealt with all these matters.
Is the Minister aware that this is still going on, and I would like to know if any effective steps are being taken to stop it?
Dr. Ryan
I am aware that licences are sold, and we are taking steps to put a stop to it.
Is the Minister satisfied that nobody is getting a licence now, through his Department, except persons who are bona fide producers and shippers of cattle?
Dr. Ryan
I explained that there were certain people getting licences who were not entitled to them, owing to the fact of their being agents of exporters previously. Wherever such a case is reported and is found to be correct, such people are removed from the list. I explained this year that only those who drew the export bounty last year will get a licence. That would remove some.
It is quite obvious the Minister is aware there is this traffic in licences going on. Are we to take it that he is going to take no steps to stop this commercial traffic in these licences?
Dr. Ryan
I suggest we are taking every possible step.
I suggest the obvious step is to make the licence non-transferable.
Dr. Ryan
It is obvious to the Deputy.
That is something. There seems to be nothing obvious to the Minister. The thing is going on and he is doing nothing to stop it.
As the Minister has admitted that certain licences were issued to certain people who never handled or bought or sold cattle, and who only got the licences in order to sell them, will he see that that practice is stopped?
Dr. Ryan
The only circumstances in which such persons got a licence was where they drew the bounty in 1933 as agents for exporters. In that way they came to get licences. I know of no other cases of complaint.
What about the case of those men who bought cattle at sheriffs' sales? Did they get licences?
Dr. Ryan
They are genuine buyers.
For the Minister?
Dr. Ryan
For the nation.
Or the Minister for Finance—one or the other.
Dr. Ryan
For the country, against the Blueshirts.
God help the country then.
I should like to point out to the Minister that there have been abuses. I was concerned in a case, and reported the facts to the Department, of one man who never handled cattle getting a licence. His name was immediately struck off.
Dr. Ryan
That is right.
The Minister must be aware of some of those cases.
Dr. Ryan
Yes.
I should like to know how they came to get licences in the first place. It was not alone in Cork those cases occurred; it was also in Donegal.
Dr. Ryan
They must have been on the export bounty list to get the licences.
Does the Minister admit that in the case of a fat cattle licence, after the beast to which it relates has been sold, the person who got the licence is entitled to sell it?
I should like to be clear on the Minister's reply, because he has just made an important statement. Does the Minister say that nobody got cattle export licences except persons who were in a position to satisfy the Minister that they had on a previous occasion drawn bounty in respect of exports?
Dr. Ryan
The Deputy was here when I explained the matter before. The question I was asked was about people who had never handled or exported cattle. Those people only got licences because they were on the export bounty list. The Deputy has put a different question to me now. I had explained, in the course of the debate here, that there were two other classes in the business——
Who were bona fide producers or shippers?
Dr. Ryan
Yes—one or the other. With regard to Deputy Moore's question, I should not like to express an opinion on the legal rights of a person who gets a licence.