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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Jun 1935

Vol. 56 No. 19

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Forestry.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £153,710 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1936, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Foraoiseachta, maraon le Deontas-i-gCabhair chun Tailimh do Thógaint (9 agus 10 Geo. 5, c. 58; agus Uimh. 34 de 1928).

That a sum not exceeding £153,710 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1936, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry, including a Grant-in-Aid for Acquisition of Land (9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 58; and No. 34 of 1928).

Minister for Lands (Mr. Connolly)

The total net Vote for the current financial year is £230,510, representing an increase over last year of £108,641. In presenting my Estimate last year I mentioned that the increase then provided was the first step towards a wide expansion of our forestry operations and I am glad to state that the Department acquired during 1934-35 nearly double the amount of land that was acquired during the previous year: the area being 18,967 acres as compared with 10,707 acres in 1933-34. I should explain that while a substantial increase in the amount of land acquired for forestry can be made within a year an immediate increase of the planting programme is an entirely different matter.

The nurseries must be extended to produce a sufficient number of plants to meet the requirements of the proposed programme and approximately three years' nursery production is necessary before the plants are ready for the forests. This accounts for the fact that although our activities have been almost doubled the actual results in forest planting will not be seen for some time. As it worked out last year, the actual acreage planted was 5,438 acres, being an increase of 1,283 acres over the previous year, whilst the provisional programme planned for the current year is about 8,000 acres. Our nurseries during the past year have been doubled in area and further extension must take place to meet the continuous expansion that is contemplated.

The total area for forestry now in the hands of the State is 84,140 acres, which is made up of the 18,967 acres acquired during last year and the 65,173 already in the hands of the Department.

During the year our inspectors visited many areas wherein offers of lands were received by the Department and where it was found impracticable to have planting done. It has always been my wish to have forestry operations carried out in the poorer districts so that the maximum amount of employment could be afforded in these areas. Whilst this has been possible in a few districts the results have not so far been so good as we would all have wished.

Many thousands of acres have been inspected in Kerry, Galway and Mayo without anything substantial being secured for our purposes. It was found on inspection that the exposure to the Atlantic breezes prohibited any hope of successful planting. This applied to such districts as Caherdaniel, Caherciveen and other districts in Kerry, to areas in Belmullet, Ballycastle and Achill Island and to many districts of the Gaeltacht in Galway and Donegal. Further inspection is being made in the Gaeltacht counties and every effort is being made to get suitable lands, but it will, I think, be agreed that in acquiring land for planting we must be reasonably certain that we will not have any failures.

An area of 1,330 acres has been acquired in the Ballyvourney district of the Cork Gaeltacht. A new centre is being established and planting operations will be commenced there next season. Negotiations are at present taking place for the purchase of over 1,000 acres in the area around Gougane Barra, and if these are successful it will mean the establishment of a new centre there. A new area has been secured in Kenmare which will probably provide a new centre there and negotiations for lands are proceeding in Castleisland, Cliffoney and Ballinrobe, and in several areas in Donegal. An area of about 1,300 acres is being acquired in Waterford, a few miles from the Ring College.

I mention these particular areas to indicate our anxiety and desire to get forestry development in the west and in the poorer Gaeltacht districts, but it will always be borne in mind that the land must be suitable and that the "exposure" must not be such as will render the growing of trees impossible.

Coming to the different items of the Vote, I will deal with these in brief detail.

Sub-head A: Salaries, wages and allowances, £10,804 (increase, £2.634).— This represents an increase of £2,634 and provides for an increase in the inspectorate staff as well as the appointment of a new director. During the year the inspectorate staff was increased and a scheme of reorganisation was evolved and is now being put into operation. This scheme, which provides for the division of the country into a number of zones each immediately under the charge of a junior inspector, should result in greater efficiency, and is necessary to meet the expansion of the Department's operations. A Selection Board is at present investigating the qualifications of a large number of applicants for the position of Forestry Director.

Sub-head B: Travelling expenses and subsistence allowances.—There is an increase here of £632 to meet the necessary expenditure resulting from the additional staffs provided for under sub-head A and sub-head C.2.

Sub-head C.1: Acquisition of land.— The sum required under this head for the acquisition of land is £109,500, representing an increase of £59,500. The actual amount expended during the year ending 31st March last was £38,001 but purchases were completed during the same period for an additional sum of £19,718 though the purchase money in these cases was not paid over to the vendors at the closing date of the financial year. In other words, our purchases last year amounted to a total sum of £57,719. There are at present negotiations pending for an area of about 20,000 acres. It is also anticipated that a number of estates with large blocks of immature plantations will be offered to the Department during the coming year, and provision for this type of purchase is included in this sub-head.

Sub-head C.2: Cultural operations, maintenance, etc.—There is an increase under this sub-head of £42,989, which is due to the expansion of our programme. Included in this sub-head is the provision for foresters' foremen, general labour as well as the maintenance of buildings and the provision of seed and equipment. We have increased our number of centres from 51 to 62. The number of foresters has been increased from 27 to 33 and the number of foremen has been increased from seven to 17. The Department has found difficulty in obtaining adequately-trained men for these positions which we have to fill to meet our additional operations. We are recruiting trainees, but it will be readily understood that it will be from two to three years before these trainees have completed their training. This shortage of trained staffs has considerably handicapped us in our work and has in some cases prevented us from getting ahead with work on lands which we have already acquired.

There is a sum of £1,900 provided for the upkeep of buildings on the forest properties. This includes the expenditure on reconditioning and equipping Avondale as a Forestry School which, it is expected, will be opened for trainees at the beginning of June. With regard to ordinary labour, our peak period of employment last year was in March, when 1,310 labourers were engaged. In February, 1,158 were operating, and 936 were on the work in January. During the summer when clearing operations are being carried on and when more or less the season for forestry is over, the number of employees falls to about 600. The total amount spent on labour last year was £49,538. When I speak of that type of labour I mean labour on what you might call rough work, apart from the ordinary permanent staffs.

Seeds, Seedlings and Transplants— £9,000. The sum estimated for the purchase of seed, seedlings and transplants is £9,000. Apart from the production of our own nurseries, we purchased 1,750,000 plants from Saorsát nurserymen during last year and as they were unable to supply all our needs in the species selected, some purchases had to be made outside the country. The quantity of seed purchased last year was 6,876 lb. and these seeds were imported from Germany (2,550 lb.), Holland (1,500), Denmark (1,330), Austria (200), United States (656), Scotland (590), Czecho Slovakia (50). It should be made clear, of course, that the big bulk of the seedlings and transplants are produced in our own nurseries but purchases will be necessary until our nursery production is brought up to our planting needs. This, it is expected, will be possible within the next few years.

As mentioned last year, the Department installed a small seed extraction plant and this promises to be reasonably successful. During the year 1,643 lb. of seed was collected including 600 lb. weight of oak, 500 lb. beech and 225 ash, whilst 1,895,000 seedlings were raised from the home collected seed sown last year.

Sub-head C.3: Timber conversion.— This expenditure is in connection with the Department's sawmills at Dundrum and Emo. The mill at Emo is comparatively small but at Dundrum there is a reasonably good demand for the products of the mill. Certain improvements and additions for Dundrum are at present under consideration and these account, in the main, for the increase in expenditure.

Sub-head D. 1: Grants for afforestation purposes £600. This expenditure is in connection with the Department's scheme of Free Grants for private persons undertaking planting and replanting work. Grants are made at the rate of £4 per acre, £3 being paid as soon as the planting has been carried out to the satisfaction of the Department and the remaining £1 per acre in five years' time provided the plantation has been properly maintained. The minimum area required is five acres but this amount can, where necessary, be made up by different land owners provided that all the lands adjoin and that the area provided is not less than the five acres.

Sub-head D.2: Arbour Day, £1,400— The Department revived the Arbor Day movement and fixed March last as an Arbor month leaving to each area the choice of a suitable day. The scheme was carried through the medium of the schools with the co-operation of the Minister for Education. 1,524 schools, including 149 in the Gaeltacht, applied for vouchers and participated in the scheme. The main purpose of Arbor Day is the Educational one, to teach children the value of trees, to interest them in the care and preservation of existing trees and to give them an appreciation of re-afforestation work and the beauty and value of trees generally. The last Arbor Day venture was merely a first experiment and the reports so far received indicate that it was reasonably successful.

Sub-head E: Forestry education, £1,000.—This sub-head provides one scholarship value £60 tenable at the National University and covering a five years' course. It also provides for a special course for foresters and foremen. The greater portion of the amount required is in connection with the opening of Avondale as a School of Forestry. Avondale was for some years used as a school of forestry but was closed down during the European War. The trainees of the Department have been located at various centres principally at Emo and a few at Dundrum, but undoubtedly Avondale will provide ideal facilities for the practical and theoretical training which our apprentices require.

Sub-head F. is merely a token vote of £10.

Sub-head G: Incidental expenses, £200, covers the expenses of advertising lettings of shootings, lands available for grazing, sales of timber as well as telegrams, telephones and sundry expenses.

Sub-head H. Appropriations-in-Aid, £8,200.—This sum represents the estimated receipts from the sale of mature timber, receipts from the sale of products of sawmills, rents from grazings, shootings, cottages, etc. An increase of £1,300 is estimated over last year's figure.

I have covered the various sub-heads of the estimate and these will indicate what we have in mind for the current year. The policy is one of expansion, but as I have explained the various steps in expansion must be synchronised so that acquisition and preparation of land will be accompanied by nursery development and the production of plants. One of our chief difficulties has been the lack of trained scientific foresters and inspectors. Our existing staff has worked hard to cover all the proposals and offers which we have received but additional expert officers are needed in the Department.

At present a special selection board is engaged in selecting a new director. The post has been made attractive and was widely advertised, with the result that we have had close on 70 candidates from 12 different countries for the position. Until this new director is appointed and until we have more men trained as inspectors, foresters and foremen we cannot reach the full expansion which I look upon as desirable and necessary for the country. Apart from the leeway that is to be made up and apart from the climatic and æsthetic advantages of having our lands planted with trees there is an urgent economic need for timber for our own requirements. It will take years to repair the ravages of the past and the denuding of our stocks and it is to that end that the whole activity of the Department is being devoted. I have indicated the preliminary necessary steps that must precede full expansion if the work is to be properly carried out and in spite of the impatience that is sometimes expressed I have satisfied myself that it would be unwise and wasteful to reach for wider expansion until these preliminary preparations are completed. One other aspect I might touch on in conclusion. We have received and continue to receive offers of all kinds of land from all ends of the country. There are various misconceptions prevalent regarding the growing of trees; one is that trees will grow anywhere under any sort of conditions. That is not so. Tress need soil and certain favourable conditions of wind. Unless these are suitable then it would be foolish waste to spend time and money attempting to develop forestry. The policy of the Department may have been ultra conservative in the past— and I believe it was so—but at the same time I have laid down as policy that we must be reasonably certain to get results before we spend a penny of our Vote in planting. In short, we are anxious to plant every acre of waste land in the country that is not needed for other purposes, provided that timber can be grown on it.

Another misconception that I find pretty general is that any person of average intelligence can get busy in forestry development and direction. On the contrary, forestry is a highly skilled technical job which must, if it is to be successful, be guided and directed by competent trained men who will supervise their crops as carefully as any agriculturist will look after his fields of grain or roots. Allowing for these precautions I think we may claim that we are already well on the way to our programme of expansion and that the foundations of that expansion are being carefully and well laid.

Mr. Lynch

In spite of the Minister's rather optimistic statement, Deputies from the western counties will be somewhat disappointed at the result of the experiments conducted by the Department in connection with forestry in those areas during the past year. The Minister mentioned that certain areas in Kerry, notably Caherdaniel and Caherciveen, have been found unsuitable for planting and that the same prevailed with regard to portions of Galway and Mayo because of the ravages of winds from the Atlantic. That is rather serious news for those areas, because it was always thought in the past that a great deal of the land lying waste there, unused and practically unusable for other purposes, might be turned into useful purposes for forestry. I quite agree that if the land is unsuitable for the growing of trees, well, it cannot be helped; but I thought that experiments were being conducted with a view to finding a type of tree which, perhaps, might be of little value commercially but which could be grown there as a shelter belt for the purpose of protecting young trees that would be of commercial value. I understood that that was a feasible proposition and I should like to hear from the Minister whether that idea has been abandoned, because, as I say, it is in those areas, more than in any other part of the country, that you have waste land and that the waste land could be acquired at a very small figure.

The Minister told us that 18,967 acres were acquired during the past year, but he did not tell us in what areas that acreage was acquired, nor did he tell us at what price, roughly, per acre, it was acquired. Presumably, the price varied according to the areas in which the land was acquired. I would have no hesitation in saying that in the portions of Kerry to which I refer, and in the western portions of County Galway, County Mayo and County Donegal, large tracts of land could be acquired at a very small figure. I know that it would be an expensive business to provide your shelter belt—if it were feasible to do so—before you put down your commercial trees, but I believe the amount you would save in the price you would pay per acre would probably defray the difference in cost in a scheme elsewhere. That is a matter that I, personally, would have liked to have been looked into in order to see whether something in that direction could be made possible.

I do not want to delay the House in this matter. That was the one thing which struck me in the Minister's statement—that apparently there is going to be an abandonment of any idea of afforestation along the western seaboard. To my mind, that will create great disappointment. Of course, if it is not possible, it is a disappointment which must be borne. I quite realise that there is no use in advocating something which it is not possible to carry out. I am not by any means an expert in these matters and if the Minister is advised by his experts that this thing cannot be done, well, it is just as well that it should be made plain to the people right away, and that they should understand that the land they thought could be utilised for forestry is unsuitable and that they might as well look elsewhere for some economic relief rather than to forestry.

I should like to know from the Minister if, when apportioning the ground for the various types of trees, he has had a census of the various kinds of trees taken from the point of view of the consumption of timber, and if he is trying to plant trees in proportion to our requirements. I should like to know from the Minister if he thinks he will be able to cover all our requirements in ordinary timber. I am not referring to certain furniture requirements but to the ordinary timber in commercial use for building purposes and so on. Does the Minister contemplate that at some time we would be able substantially to cover our requirements in that matter? I should also like to ask him if he has found any species of trees suitable for growing in virgin bog, because, even though the rapid expansion in the winning of peat may make big inroads on the bog, the planting of trees, where you have square miles of bog, would improve the countryside. Even though these trees might have little or no commercial value, I think it would be worth the cost of planting them if suitable trees could be found to grow there.

Like Deputy Lynch, I must say that it was like a douche of cold water to hear that timber cannot be grown along the western seaboard. I am afraid that a huge number of people will be bitterly disappointed as a result of that. Apparently, it is true, but I am wondering if it is entirely true. Without being an expert on the matter, one will admit, of course, that it would be impossible to grow timber on the western side of the ranges adjoining the coast. Take the eastern side of the same ranges, however; that side is not exposed to the western blast that comes from the Atlantic, and surely something could be done there. With regard to the untenanted land that has been taken over and that will be taken over by the Land Commission and where plantations have been cut down in the last 14 or 15 years, I should like to know from the Minister whether it is the intention to clear these plantations and replant them, or has the Minister any scheme with regard to that matter? Then there is this matter of the requirement of five acres of a plantation in order to get a grant. I thought at first that five acres was rather a large requirement to begin with.

This is a new proposal for our people. One of the saddest things that strikes one travelling through the country, particularly through the poorer counties, is the utter lack of woods, of timber of any kind. I do not know what the experience of the Minister has been in this direction, but I should like him to tell us whether the five-acre proposal has been a success. I thought at the beginning that it was a rather big area to start with. If, in the light of the experience he has gained since he inaugurated the scheme, he has found that the people have not taken to it, I would suggest that he should reduce the area. If you are going to spend money in a great national scheme of afforestation you will have to develop the planting mentality amongst the people. That can be done in two ways. The Arbor Day is one way, a very excellent way, but I think that there should be more than one Arbor Day in the year. There should be some period during each week in which children attending school could be taught something about the growing of plants and trees. Another way to promote afforestation is to give a grant for small plantations. If the Minister has found in practice, since he inaugurated the scheme, that it has not been taken up as he expected it would, he should reduce the area. There are hundreds of thousands of acres in this country which could be planted by people on their own initiative, as anybody who goes through the country knows. In the first place, these plantations would be useful as shelter belts for cattle and sheep and would be of national value afterwards.

If the Minister intends that there should be any large scheme for the development of plantations in the western counties I would suggest that he should make an attractive proposal to the occupiers of these lands to induce them to begin on a small scale. If the five-acre scheme has been too big I would begin with a smaller area, say, even an acre, because the peasant farmers, particularly in the Gaeltacht areas, are very conservative, and it is very hard to get them to get a move on. They think that because their fathers and their grandfathers lived without trees on their land they should continue to do so. While that attitude is understandable, it is a mentality that should be got rid of. It would be an enormous attraction to this country, particularly in counties that are poor, if these areas could be planted. Apparently there is not going to be any further large scheme of afforestation, but the people themselves could carry on the work in a smaller way if proper inducements were held out to them. It could be done in two ways; firstly, through the schools, and, secondly, by holding out an inducement to those farmers who have huge tracts of bogland which are utterly derelict, to plant them.

The scheme should be made as attractive as possible. The inducement should be such as would coerce them, so to speak, into planting these areas. The way in which the grants are made by the county council already is that the secretary at certain seasons of the year sends out instructions to each church area, to the parish priest or the rector of a Protestant church, as to where plants can be got and the conditions under which they can be obtained. If you get a thoroughly good applicant, having plenty of land lying waste, he could easily plant five acres, but he will not do it in one year. He would have to begin with a smaller area. I would even give these people free plants, on condition, of course, that the portion planted should be wired-in, protected, and that it would be subject to regular inspection by an inspector of the Department to see that it would be maintained.

You would want to brand the plants if you gave them for nothing.

It is the general experience in this country that the poor counties are utterly lacking in any decoration in the way of timber. There is nothing more monotonous than to drive for miles through the country and to see nothing but black bog before you. Surely some steps should be taken to see that belts of fir or larch are planted in these areas. Something will have to be done in that way and apparently a contribution must be given by the State for this purpose. Seeing that the Minister's expectations have been knocked on the head, I would come at the problem in another way. I think it would be a good idea to get out some small pamphlets and circulate them through the National Schools. I am concerned with the poorer counties, more particularly with my own county, which apparently is one of the disappointed counties. The Minister could approach the problem in a small way at first and induce these people to plant even two acres, one acre, or half an acre. I do not think you can go beyond that for a beginning. Then some attractive literature dealing with the subject might be sent out to the schools and distributed amongst the children.

What good is that when you cannot grow the trees?

Of course anything will grow in County Dublin, even politicians.

All the Minister can say is that he failed to grow trees in your county.

The problem may be difficult, but I would like to see something done to solve it. I want to see trees growing in these waste parts of my constituency, not for my own sake, but for the sake of the county in general and also as a national asset. I see that a sum of £60 is given for a scholarship. Apparently that is all the money voted for educational purposes. I must say that if a great national scheme of afforestation is being undertaken, the Department is not overgenerous in the matter of scholarships. If some poor boy from one of the Gaeltacht areas wins this scholarship and has no other means to meet the expense of clothes, boots, board and lodging and has to pay for lectures, this £60 is a very poor scholarship. I think that if there was even another £15 added to it, it would not be a very valuable one. It would just make it an economic proposition for a boy with poor parents. Certainly if the Department is launching out into a great scheme of national afforestation, a scholarship of £60 seems very little to provide from public funds. I think it might be very easily increased to £75 or even £80. I think if a poor boy wins this scholarship, he is entitled to get a sum that will provide him with reasonably decent lodging, clothes, boots, train-fare, and pay for his lectures. The sum at present provided is slightly over £1 per week and it is scarcely adequate. It is a very mean provision, particularly when only one scholarship is given.

I would ask the Minister to consider the Gaeltacht areas particularly. Apparently, they are going to be bitterly disappointed in their expectations. The Minister knows as well as I do that the people in those areas had very high expectations with regard to forestry schemes. In spite of what the Minister said, I think that on the eastern side of the mountain ranges, which are bound on the west by the Atlantic, something could be done in the way of planting. That portion of the county is well enough protected from the Atlantic, and I think some kind of timber would grow on these enormous wastes of bog land.

The Minister to conclude.

Mr. Connolly

I have not very much to say by way of reply. It was a pleasant relief to find the discussion on the Vote concentrated intelligently on the matters it dealt with. Deputy Lynch mentioned the question of shelter belts, and he, like those of us who are interested in the poorer districts of the Gaeltacht, would like to see the maximum amount of work done in those areas. I can assure him that my interest in forestry is due almost entirely to those areas. We have done a considerable amount of planting in Wicklow, in certain areas in Tipperary, and in some of the favoured eastern counties. I do not think I would have had anything to do with the Forestry Department were it not that I felt it might be an additional means of helping me in my other Department. As to shelter belts, in how far they will be successful I do not know, but we have reasonable hopes. In some areas, such as the Deputy has in mind, and such as Deputy McMenamin also has in mind in regard to Donegal, it is not always easy to get an eastern slope, for very often the mountains run east and west which, of course, precludes the possibility of getting an eastern slope from the point of view of wind.

With regard to the Gaeltacht counties, I am not fully satisfied yet. We are having a further inspection made of every area in the Gaeltacht that has been offered to us, to see if there is any possibility of taking over portions of those areas, even relatively small portions of them. I am speaking now of such areas as would merit the establishment of a centre. It is generally accepted that a 300-acre area within, say, a radius of four to five miles, and in reasonably large sections, will make an economic forestry centre. It is not going to be easy to get such areas, particularly in the poorer lands of the West: poor from the point of view of soil and difficult from the point of view of wind. But I am satisfied that we will reduce the economic demand. When I spoke of the difficulties and of my disinclination I had this in mind, and this only: that I do not want to have any planting done which in six, seven or ten years will fail, because that is going to make it not only wasteful for the State, but almost impossible for any progressive person who wants to deal later with forestry to go ahead in that area. I have in mind one particular area in Galway that, in my opinion, was badly planted. The planting was done in the wrong area. The result of that has been that it is now almost impossible to overcome the technical prejudice against doing anything in that area.

Deputies can take it from me the existing staffs in the Department are working to the limit of their capacity. The staffs are being increased, as far as it is possible to increase them, from intelligent students. It is only when we have our own trainees that we will have the right type of student for this work. Deputy McMenamin is very much concerned about Donegal. So am I, but I am equally concerned about Galway and the other areas. At the moment an intensive examination is being carried out seeking for what Deputy McMenamin mentioned — I mentioned it myself recently in Donegal — namely, suitable eastern slopes, because if there is a western aspect it eliminates the possibility of growing owing to wind. An inspector is engaged making an examination of the problem from that point of view. In Donegal, we have recently taken over a very big area — approximately 3,000 acres. It is true that it is not in the densely populated district of Donegal. It is also true that it is not in the Gaeltacht in Donegal. It is in the Lough Derg direction, but still it is in Donegal. We hope to get a very substantial portion of that developed as forestry land.

With regard to the species that may be grown in bog land and in bad land, experiments are going on not only here but elsewhere. I am in the closest possible contact with the American Department of Forestry where I have some intimate personal friends. They are doing their utmost to keep me posted as to what is going on there and in touch with those who are interested in this question of the re-afforestation of waste land. There is not any opportunity being missed I think. With regard to the species of trees to which Deputy Belton referred, we are fully conscious of the desirability of planting the trees which will be needed for future use within the country. The percentages last year, as they worked out, were as follows:— Pines, 33? per cent.; larch, 12 per cent.; spruce, 43? per cent.; douglas fir, 3½ per cent.; hardwood and miscellaneous, 7½ per cent. There, again, the question of soil comes in. There are certain soils in which hardwood will grow. Hardwood needs a certain quality of soil. In those soils which suit the growing of spruce and douglas fir you cannot grow certain types of hardwood, the type of hardwood required for nigh-class furniture and high-grade panelling work. It would be impracticable to attempt the growing of that class of timber in the country. I was interested in getting a report recently of a quick-growing walnut and some other types. Very interesting experiments indeed are going on at present in the forestry world in the case of unusual types of wood thought to be suitable for quick growth, but it is too soon yet to say what the results of the experiments will be. Personally, some of the reports that I have received would seem to me, as one who has had some experience of timber, to be much too good to be true.

Deputy McMenamin made various suggestions about the quantity of land on which we ought to give grants. He suggests an acre and even a half acre. That is quite impracticable from the point of view of inspection and it is generally impracticable from the point of view of proper protection. Every aspect of the problem is being watched and, so far as I am concerned, I do not mind spending a bit more in the Gaeltacht counties, in the poorer areas like Cavan and Leitrim, and counties of relatively poor soil for agricultural production. But I do not want a failure. I know that some of my experts who are sitting behind me will disagree with me and say that I am promising too much. However, I do not mind if we spend somewhat more in these areas than economic forestry would justify. I am concerned, however, that there should be no plantation that in five or ten years hence would turn out to be a withered failure. That would be fatal to forestry and would make the problem infinitely more difficult for those who will come after us. I can only promise that we shall do our utmost. I am a forestry enthusiast, and I should like to see the maximum amount of work done not only that we may provide employment in the poorer areas but because I realise that timber-growing has been hopelessly neglected in this country. I believe that, inside 20 years, there will be a world scarcity of timber. We may get substitutes for timber, but we should take steps to provide for the future the timber necessary to supply the needs of the people. Apart from the climatic advantages, the qualities of beauty that trees give a country and the improvement which forestry will make in the lives of the people, I am anxious that forestry should be pushed ahead from the commercial point of view. In those areas where the land is good, I think we should go in for sound, economic forestry but in the other areas I think we should stretch to the limit the development of forestry where trees can be grown at all.

Vote put and agreed to.
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