Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Jun 1935

Vol. 57 No. 8

Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Bill, 1935—Report.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Dr. Ward)

I move amendment No. 1:—

In page 5, line 23, Section 3 (2), to delete the words "a pauper lunatic or a criminal lunatic" and substitute the words "a criminal lunatic or as a non-paying patient in any district or auxiliary mental hospital, within the meaning of Section 9 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, as amended by Section 79 of the Local Government Act, 1925 (No. 5 of 1925)".

There was some objection to the term "pauper lunatic," and it was considered desirable to make this change. It is practically a drafting amendment.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Dr. Ward

I move amendment No. 2:—

In page 12, Section 18 (2), to delete in line 39 the word "and"; and also to delete paragraphs (c), (d) and (e).

On Committee Stage I think Deputy Norton urged an amendment to delete the market garden from the category of agricultural holdings. This amendment No. 2 goes somewhat further than Deputy Norton had in mind, but it is considered that by retaining paragraphs (a) and (b) the Deputy's intention will be more fully and completely met. The question of the interpretation of what constitutes an agricultural holding is, of course, unaffected by the amendment. It will still remain a matter to be determined by the deciding officer.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Dr. Ward

I think amendments 3 and 4 have been met by amendment No. 2.

Amendments 3 and 4 not moved.

Dr. Ward

I move amendment No. 5, which is consequential on amendment No. 1:—

In page 17, Section 30 (1), to delete paragraph (b) and substitute the following paragraph:—

"(b) she is maintained in any place as a criminal lunatic or as a non-paying patient in any district or auxiliary mental hospital, within the meaning of Section 9 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, as amended by Section 79 of the Local Government Act, 1925 (No. 5 of 1925)".

Amendment put and agreed to.

An Ceann Comhairle

Amendment No. 6 is out of order.

Mr. Norton

May I make a submission to you, Sir, in this respect?

An Ceann Comhairle

Very well.

Mr. Norton

I understand, Sir, that you ruled the amendment out of order on the grounds that because the amendment, if accepted, would require the State—not as the State, but as an employer—to pay the contributions of certain of its lowly-paid workers, it is deemed to impose a charge on State funds. I submit to you, Sir, that this amendment seeks to impose an obligation on employers generally to pay the contributions in respect of this Bill for their workers whose wages are less than £2 per week. It is not seeking to put any specific charge on the State as the State, but merely imposes an incidental charge upon the State in its capacity as employer. I submit, Sir, that I think it only fair that an amendment of this kind, which does not impose a specific charge upon the State, should be allowed to be moved.

An Ceann Comhairle

I think it only fair to the Chair also, to state that that was not the only reason given for refusal to accept this amendment. It was eminently an amendment which should have been offered in Committee, and is, in fact, an extension of an amendment offered on that Stage. The fact that it only indirectly imposes a charge does not bring it into order, because the imposition of an actual or potential charge would prevent the amendment from being moved. I have definitely decided that the amendment may not be moved.

Dr. Ward

I move amendment No. 7:—

In page 22, section 45, lines 39 and 40, to delete the words "together with any observations of the actuary in relation thereto."

On the Committee Stage Deputy Norton moved an amendment to Section 45 to add certain words, which would cause the report of the actuary, together with any observations of the actuary in relation thereto, to be laid on the Table of each House of the Oireachtas. The principle of that amendment was accepted by the Minister, and the amendment was inserted in the Bill as it appeared on the Order Paper. On further examination it was considered desirable to redraft the amendment, and to omit the words: "together with any observations of the actuary in relation thereto." I think the principle involved in the amendment was to secure, at any rate, that the actuarial report would be laid on the Table of both Houses, but if the words proposed to be deleted were to be retained in the Bill I am advised that it would involve the laying on the Table of both Houses of the Oireachtas all correspondence, and, in fact, the complete files in relation to this matter, and I think Deputy Norton scarcely had that in mind. I take it that his point will be met by securing that the actuarial report will be laid on the Table of both Houses.

Mr. Norton

Do I understand that when the report of the actuary is laid on the Table it would include such observations as were made by the actuary in the course of his report, and that, for instance, the actuarial examination would not be detached from such observations as the actuary submitted?

Dr. Ward

I would not undertake to indicate very clearly what would be laid on the Table of the House in addition to the actuarial report, but it would be obviously undesirable and, in fact, impossible to have all the correspondence laid on the Table of the House. As to where observations should begin and end I cannot get a clear conception at the moment. Written observations might, possibly, pass between the Minister and the actuary either before the investigation had taken place, during the investigation or, perhaps, subsequent to it. I do not think Deputy Norton would contend that such communications should be laid on the Table of the House. The full actuarial report will be placed on the Table of the House and, I think, that is really what Deputy Norton has in mind.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Dr. Ward

I move amendment No. 8:—

In page 25, to delete Section 54 (1) and substitute the following sub-section:—

(1) Where—

(a) in respect of any period a public assistance authority has granted relief, otherwise than in an institution, to or on account of a person who, though entitled to a pension, is not at that time receiving payments on account thereof, and

(b) that relief is in excess of the amount which would have been granted to that person if he had been receiving payment on account of a pension, and

(c) any sum (in this sub-section referred to as the arrears) accruing in respect of any part of the said period on account of a pension subsequently becomes payable to that person, and

(d) such public assistance authority has, before the arrears are paid to that person, certified to the Minister the amount (in this sub-section referred to as the excess) so paid by such public assistance authority in excess in respect of the period in respect of which the arrears accrued,

the Minister may reduce the arrears by an amount not exceeding the amount of the excess and shall, in such case, pay to such public assistance authority out of the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Fund a sum equal to the amount by which the arrears are so reduced.

This is a drafting amendment necessary to prevent the possibility of a double payment out of the Widows' and Orphans' Pension Fund in cases where a public assistance authority did not put forward a claim until after the arrears of pension had been paid to a pensioner. As the Bill stands at the present time, recoupment may have to be made to the public assistance authority after the pensioner had been paid the arrears.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Dr. Ward

I move amendment No. 9, which is consequential and embodies the same principle as amendment No. 8:—

In pages 25 and 26 to delete Section 55 (1), and substitute the following sub-section:—

(1) Where—

(a) in respect of any period unemployment assistance has been paid to a person who, though entitled to a pension, is not at that time receiving payments on account thereof, and

(b) such unemployment assistance would not have been paid if that person had then been receiving payment on account of a pension, and

(c) any sum (in this sub-section referred to as the arrears) accruing in respect of any part of the said period on account of a pension subsequently becomes payable to that person, and

(d) the Minister for Industry and Commerce has, before the arrears are paid to that person, certified to the Minister the amount (in this sub-section referred to as the excess) so paid by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in respect of the period in respect of which the arrears accrued.

the Minister may reduce the arrears by an amount not exceeding the amount of the excess and shall, in such case, pay to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, out of the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Fund a sum equal to the amount by which the arrears are so reduced.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Dr. Ward

I move amendment No. 10:—

In page 27, at the end of Section 59, to add a new sub-section as follows:—

In computing the amount of compensation under sub-clause (ii) of clause (a) of paragraph (1) of the First Schedule to the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906, or under Rules 2 or 4 of the Second Schedule to the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1934 (No. 9 of 1934), whether proceedings to recover such compensation have been commenced before or after the passing of this Act, there shall not be taken into account any pension or child's allowance payable under this Act.

The Minister undertook on Committee Stage to look into the point raised by Deputy Norton and it is considered desirable that it should be specifically incorporated in the Bill.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Question—"That the Bill, as amended, be received for Final Consideration"—put and agreed to.

Fifth Stage ordered for Thursday, 4th July.