Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Jun 1935

Vol. 57 No. 8

Vote 9—Commissions and Special Inquiries.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £7,651 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1936, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí cile Coimisiún, Coistí agus Fiosrúchán Speisialta.

That a sum not exceeding £7,651 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1936, for the Salaries and other Expenses of Commissions, Committees, and Special Inquiries.

General Mulcahy

This Vote is the only opportunity that we have of getting some information with regard to some of these commissions and special inquiries. There are three commissions mentioned there that, so far as I am concerned, I should like to hear something about. The first is the Irish Manuscripts Commission. I should like to get some information as to the particular line the Manuscripts Commission is pursuing at the present time. Then there is the Banking and Currency Commission. When the latter Commission was set up, I tried to argue with the Minister that, for many reasons, the evidence given by that Commission should be given in public, that it should be suitably taken note of, and that it should be made public not only to members of this House but to the public; particularly to Deputies or members of the public who might be anxious to get into touch with the deliberations of the Banking and Currency Commission for the purpose of seeing the trend of discussion there and the ideas current there, with a view to being in a better position to prepare for the discussions that will inevitably take place when that Commission finishes its sittings and makes its report. Has not the time now come for some kind of a report to be given to members of the House, or for some kind of information to be given to such members of the House as may want some information as to the ground covered up to the present by the Banking and Currency Commission? I should also like to know whether, in view of the fact that, already, a number of reports or statements of evidence have been placed before the Banking and Currency Commission, these reports and statements of evidence should not be made available to Deputies of this House and the general public. That Commission has now been sitting for some time. We must presume that it has not been idling its time or avoiding discussion, and there must be some useful memoranda which could be made available to Deputies and to the public. Again, I should like to hear whether the Inter-Departmental Committee on Public Works has finished its labours or when it will issue its report.

Mr. Morrissey

I, also, should like to hear about the activities of the Inter-Departmental Committee. I understand that a number of schemes were considered, and we have heard that the report will be made available to the members of the House. As far as I know, however, we have got no information at all with regard to these schemes.

Mr. Norton

Will the Minister tell us what this Inter-Departmental Committee in connection with Public Works have in mind when they speak of novel schemes of work? It has come to my notice that local authorities have abandoned schemes that, otherwise, would have been dealt with by these local authorities, because of the idea that these schemes were to be financed by the Inter-Departmental Committee. I gather that there has been a widespread misconception as to the type of schemes this Committee will finance, and that that has been the cause of certain schemes being abandoned by local authorities. If it is not intended to finance schemes which are properly in the domain of the local authorities at present, the Committee should make that clear. Cases have come to my notice recently where a public work of rather urgent character, in a particular town in my own constituency, and which had arrived at an advanced stage, was sent to the Inter-Departmental Committee in the belief that the local authority might induce the Committee to finance that scheme. The receipt of the proposals for the scheme was duly acknowledged by the Committee, and I believe that that acknowledgment led them to believe that the scheme might be financed by the Inter-Departmental Committee.

The fact of acknowledging a letter in that way seems to me to be calculated to give a local authority the impression that there is a chance that a scheme of that kind will be financed by the inter-Departmental Committee. I suggest to the Minister that some steps should be taken to indicate in broad outline the kind of schemes the Committee have in mind and that the inter-Departmental Committee ought not be used by local authorities as a means of avoiding the carrying out of schemes for public works which are properly within the province of these local authorities at present.

With Deputy Morrissey and Deputy Mulcahy, I am anxious to know whether this Committee has published any report and whether the report will be made available to Deputies, either by sending them individual copies or by laying it on the Table of the House. There was a good deal of Press publicity given to the fact that the Committee had been established, and there was a good deal of boosting in relation to the novel kind of schemes the Committee would undertake. I should like to know whether any proposals have been made by the Committee for dealing with any of these novel schemes of public works, what kind of schemes they propose to finance, and generally, what has been done by this inter-Departmental Committee.

There is a sub-head in the Estimate providing for the expenditure of £1,700 this year on Commissions and Inquiries not specifically provided for, which I do not see explained subsequently in the Estimate. I should like to know whether any of that money has been spent during the present financial year and, if so, on what kind of Commissions and Inquiries.

Mr. MacEntee

Might I, first of all, dispel a misconception which seems to be current, judging by some of the speeches which have been made here? The inter-Departmental Committee will not have the disbursement of any funds and, therefore, it will not of itself be able to carry out any works. It was set up "to consider the extent to which it is practicable to devise a scheme of useful and desirable public works with a view to reducing expenditure on unemployment assistance to a minimum and to report upon the nature and extent of such works, the steps to be taken to initiate them, the best method of financing them, and the organisations to be set up to carry them out." It was obviously a purely advisory and not an executive body, and, therefore, if there should be any local authorities with duties and responsibilities to the public who are so misinformed as to believe that this Committee is going to relieve them of any of their obligations, they had better get rid of that misapprehension at once.

The mere fact that the Committee is asked for schemes of a novel character is an indication that it is not going to recommend that local authorities should be relieved of their proper responsibilities in matters of public health and, therefore, if there is any local authority deferring the execution of necessary public works, in the hope that the Committee is going to take some part of the charge off them, they had better depart from that attitude at once. In fact, I might say that, so far as I am concerned, the Departmental machinery will not be used to relieve local authorities of the duty of carrying out works which would normally be done by them. On the question of the interim report, it is not proposed to publish it because all the ground would be covered in the final report. It is of a preliminary nature only and has merely set out the lacunæ and blanks which have to be filled in our information with regard to the distribution of unemployment and certain legislative defects which the Committee has come up against.

Mr. Morrissey

When does the Minister hope to get the final report?

Mr. MacEntee

The committee is meeting weekly and working as hard as it possibly can. I am pressing them for the final report, but the Deputy must understand that they are trying to devise a scheme which is going to cover the country as a whole and that that cannot be got overnight. The amount of planning will be considerable.

General Mulcahy

Will the Minister be prepared to put a copy of the interim report in the Library?

Mr. MacEntee

I do not think any useful purpose would be served by that.

Mr. Morrissey

Would the Minister give any indication——

Mr. MacEntee

I am answering the Deputy. The Deputy asked these questions and I am answering them. There is no need to put the same question recurringly three or four times.

Mr. Morrissey

I was not going to put the same question. I was going to ask if the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary could indicate whether we would get the report in three months or six months' time.

Mr. MacEntee

We are not in a position to say, but we are pressing the Committee to get on with its job.

Mr. Morrissey

That is all I want to know.

Mr. MacEntee

I assume we will get the report as soon as it becomes available. On the question of the Commission of Inquiry into Banking, Currency and Credit, to which Deputy Mulcahy referred, I may say that that is a very important Commission. It is a full representative body. They have decided to take evidence in private and there were no less than nine sessions of three days each between 23rd November and 10th April, and think it is most unfair to say that these people have been asleep on their job.

General Mulcahy

Who has said that?

Mr. MacEntee

You said it.

General Mulcahy

Oh, no. I say that a very considerable amount important material must have been put before them——

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy ought to know now that there is very little difference between insinuation and allegation——

General Mulcahy

Oh, I see.

Mr. MacEntee

——and he ought not to be adopting another Deputy's tactics. The Deputy, as a rule, is much more straightforward.

General Mulcahy

I put the matter as it is quite natural for me to put it and no tactique on the part of the Minister is going to upset me in putting it in the way in which I want to put it. I said very explicitly that a considerable amount of material must have been put before them in the meantime, if they have not been asleep, and we ought to get some of the results of that now.

Mr. MacEntee

It is true that a great deal of ground has been covered by the Committee, but I should like the Deputy not to be under any misapprehension. A great deal of material has not been put before them by the general public, and, in fact, the Committee had to adjourn some of its sessions and ask the general public again and again to submit memoranda on the matter. I take it that the Deputy does not accuse the Committee of lying down on the job. I can assure him in regard to that. The mere fact that the people who are on the Committee have been able to give what might be described as nine weeks' continuous work, between 23rd November and 10th April is, I think, an indication that they are taking the job pretty seriously.

General Mulcahy

Nor do I expect that the Committee are going to be largely dependent on the general public or ought to depend on the general public in any way. That is all no reason why I expect that they have a considerable amount of properly put together material in memorandum form that might be made available now.

Mr. MacEntee

I am afraid that, whatever else the Deputy has, he has not got the gift of synthesis; otherwise he would not expect a Committee set up to consider a question which has the wide ramifications of this question to express, piecemeal, views on a problem which can only be dealt with adequately if it is considered as a whole.

General Mulcahy

I want to correct the Minister. I am not concerned with the views of the Commission. I am concerned with the evidence that is given in memorandum form or given verbally before them, and I think it would be very wrong to withhold publication of all that until the views of the Commission are given as well.

Mr. MacEntee

I am afraid that is where the Deputy and I must disagree. I think the general mass of the people would disagree with him also, because what they are concerned with is the official report of the Committee, and not the individual views of this or that person. Those views may be distorted and wrong, and the reason why we have set up a Committee is in order that it should consider the matters which have been put before it, and, having heard the evidence, express an opinion. The Deputy apparently thinks that the evidence is more important than the opinion.

General Mulcahy

I think the evidence is very important, because the facts upon which an opinion is formed are very important—far more important than the opinion.

Mr. MacEntee

We will get them when the opinion is forthcoming.

General Mulcahy

When will that be?

Mr. MacEntee

When the Committee has completed its work.

General Mulcahy

Has the Minister any idea as to when that will be?

Mr. MacEntee

It may be soon; the Committee has been working pretty hard. They are engaged on an important job. It is the most comprehensive inquiry that has yet been undertaken in this country. It touches on every activity not merely of the Government but of the general public. I think the Deputy will agree that I—not being a member of the Committee, and not being in touch with it, because I do not want to influence its decisions one way or the other—am certainly not in a position to say when it is going to report.

General Mulcahy

It is because the inquiry is so comprehensive and widespread that I think it unfair to withhold all the evidence until the whole thing is over and the report is completed.

Mr. MacEntee

I think the Committee, which has full charge of the conduct of the inquiry, and is taking its responsibility very seriously, is the better judge of that. They have decided that the inquiry will be made in private, and that their conclusions will be published with the evidence.

On the question of the Manuscripts Commission, the Commission will this year devote itself primarily to the examination by experts of collections of manuscripts of Irish interest. A great deal of very useful work is being done in that regard. Works which were undertaken during the past year, and will be continued in the present year, are depositions concerning the rebellion of 1641 and the Leinster Letters, the latter being a collection of letters written by members of Lord Edward Fitzgerald's family. The work on the Ormond Deeds and on the Civil Survey will also be continued.

Professor Alton

Will the Minister take measures to ensure that the Dáil Library will have copies of those works?

Mr. MacEntee

I do not know whether the Library Committee has taken this matter up with me. It is really a matter for them in the first instance. If the Deputy is a member of the Library Committee he ought to get that Committee to move in the matter, and I will then consider the suggestion.

Mr. Dillon

May I assure the Minister that the Library Committee has taken the matter up with him? He said he was giving them every penny which the State could spare, and that he would not give them sixpence more.

Mr. MacEntee

Do I understand from Deputy Dillon that the matter has been raised with me in the precise form in which Deputy Alton has raised it?

Mr. Norton

Would the Minister say that the decision quoted by Deputy Dillon was given unconsciously?

General Mulcahy

The rubber stamp!

Professor Alton

I hope that my appeal to the Minister in this regard will have his sympathetic consideration.

Mr. MacEntee

I cannot understand Deputy Dillon's lack of concern for the taxpayer in this matter. He is now one of the spendthrifts; on other occasions he is talking about the size of the Budget. I do not know whether the matter has previously been before me, but if it is put up again I will reconsider it.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. MacEntee

I have not said I will give them.

General Mulcahy

They might as well be found in the Library as in the Stationery Office.

Mr. Norton

I asked the Minister for information under sub-head I.

Mr. MacEntee

That is merely to provide for commissions which have not been foreseen. It is usual to have that in as a contingency item.

Question put and agreed to.