Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Jul 1935

Vol. 58 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 26.—Law Charges (Resumed).

Mr. Morrissey

When the House adjourned last night I was pointing out that in certain cases the Attorney-General thought fit to have men brought before the District Court, and thought that was sufficient. In similar cases where those charged were members or supporters of the Opposition even in the most trivial charges, they were brought before the Military Tribunal. The Attorney-General denied that and he challenged me to produce any case of that kind. Cases of that kind have been brought to the notice of the Attorney-General in this House before now. Last night they were brought to his notice again. Such cases were brought to his notice on the last occasion on which the Vote for Law Charges was before this House. There must have been numerous cases up and down the country which must be known to the Attorney-General. We have cases where A, alleged to be a member of the I.R.A., charged with having a revolver and ammunition, is brought before the District Justice. On a similar charge B is brought before the Military Tribunal because he is a member of the League of Youth or because he is not a member of the I.R.A. That is known to every member of this House and to every reader of the Press. Then we had a case at Mohill. There was a case in Strokestown, and we had the famous case in Wexford of men charged with making an armed attack on and robbery of a very old man and charged with having firearms on that occasion. In these cases the culprits were brought before the District Justice.

Last night I asked the Attorney-General to give us some information regarding the number of counsel whom he has thought fit to employ in certain cases during the last 12 months. I asked also for some information, if he has the information, with regard to the fees which those counsel employed by the State get. I am told they get fees which are far in excess of those which ordinarily are paid or claimed in such cases.

Again I want to know from the Attorney-General what he has to say regarding the performance of a counsel employed by this State to conduct a prosecution and who availed of his position as State counsel for the time being to give to the prisoners—"misguided young men, as he called them"—a lecture as to the difference between their brand of Republicanism and the brand favoured by the President. He gave them a lecture also on the difference between the constitution of the I.R.A. in the President's day and the constitution of the I.R.A. at present — a lecture in which he pointed out that the essential difference lay in the fact of a certain amendment made in the constitution of the I.R.A. Are we to be asked here to-night to vote money to pay counsel for indulging in what was nothing but at attempt to use the courts of the country for propaganda on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party and on behalf of the President? I think it was a scandalous performance and one that the Attorney-General will find it hard to justify if he intends to justify it. I am satisfied of this: that that counsel would not be allowed to act in that way before the civil courts of the country. He took advantage of the fact that he was appearing before a court the members of which have had no legal training. It seems to me if we are to have State counsel conducting cases in that way there will be very little respect for State counsel, for the office of the Attorney-General or for the courts before which such statements have been made.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Flinn)

I had the distinguished pleasure last night of listening to the late Minister for Justice, Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney, telling us what he thought of the present administration of justice in the country, and principally what he thought of the present administration of justice under that damnable thing the Public Danger Act. Well many a father has lived to curse his child. Many a father has lived to be ashamed of the thing which his hot youth produced. Who was the father of the Public Safety Act? Who was the father of this damnable system? Who was the father of the invasion of the ordinary law and the production of special legislation of the character of which the Deputy says is being abused? Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney. I remember when the Bill and its successor were introduced here. I do believe that Cumann na nGaedheal was so amazed that they could get anybody with legal training with any shadow of a reputation for respect for the profession to which he belonged to father it here in this House. They got Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney. They made him Minister for Justice—for justice in order to do it. Last night he spent an hour tearing a simulated passion into shreds telling us of the hateful characteristics of the evil and lecherous thing to which his depraved mind had given birth. The engendering of this made him Minister for Justice. That was the price of the betrayal and dishonour of everything that his profession was supposed to stand for.

Mr. Costello

Is this relevant to the Vote of the Attorney-General's Office?

Mr. Flinn

If the Deputy had heard the late Minister for Justice last night——

Mr. Costello

I heard every word he said.

Mr. Flinn

——speaking of nothing else but what was actually occurring in the life of his own child, telling us every characteristic of that bantling, telling us how the marks of the father were coming out in shame and dishonour he would know it was relevant. Had he thought upon the legal system of this system, the Deputy would know whether I am in order or not. Who was it that talked to us about a court made up of untrained men? Who brought that in? Who created the court of untrained men and why did he create a court of untrained men?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have allowed the Deputy to proceed quite a long way to see what amount of relevancy he was going to bring into his statement. I cannot see that he has related it in any way so far to the Vote for Law Charges. Whoever introduced Article 2A of the Constitution——

Mr. Cosgrave

I had that honour.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

—— it does not fall for discussion here, and whatever impediments it has do not fall for discussion here.

Mr. Flinn

I would be very willing to believe that, but the difficulty is that for an hour the official spokesman of the Opposition attacked this Vote upon no other ground.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must have misunderstood Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney. I listened to Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney from the Chair yesterday evening and he did not proceed at all on the lines that Deputy Flinn is following. The gravamen of his remarks was that the Attorney-General was introducing evidence that was not legal and securing convictions on evidence that should not be presented, as not being legal evidence.

Mr. Flinn

That is exactly what I am getting at. The Deputy was comparing a court of the kind constituted under that Act with the ordinary kind of court in which barristers are accustomed to appear, and he was pointing out that before that kind of court which he had created, a court of untrained men, because they were untrained men it was possible for the Attorney-General to do things which he says could not have been done before another court. That was the gravamen of his charge. He stated that the Attorney-General knew that he was producing what was not evidence. He said that, knowing it was not evidence, he yet produced it. He said that before that court of untrained men which he, Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney, had set up, because it was a court of untrained men, and because it was not bound by the traditions, conventions and experience of the law of an ordinary court, the Attorney-General, knowing that the testimony that he presented was not evidence within the law, was able to get away with it and so to get convictions. Is not that what he was saying? Let us accept it for the moment that it is so. He said that that was a crime against the country, a crime against the individual, a crime against the liberty of every man in the country. A crime how committed? A crime committed because he had set up this specific machinery for the purpose of enabling that to be done.

The fact that these are untrained men is not a new discovery. This is not the first time that we have heard of it. When did we hear of it first? Day by day, and every day throughout the discussion of that Bill, it was suggested that they should be trained men, that they should have some knowledge of the law, that they should have some respect for the traditions of the court, that they should be people who had some training, who had been brought up to respect the liberty of the subject——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That court was set up under an Act of the Oireachtas, no matter who introduced the Bill, and its merits may not now be discussed. What was suggested should be in it, or what it was decided not to put into it, may not be discussed now.

Mr. Flinn

I am not discussing, and I have no intention of discussing, its merits. What I am complaining of is that those particular characteristics which were in it were used as the weapons of attack on this Vote on the Attorney-General. No one can deny that. It was not just in that one particular, because the Deputy went through it in detail. There were the ordinary customs and traditions of other courts which decided the form in which evidence should be given, which decided what was evidence. Because this criminal here, who is disgracing the traditions of the Irish Bar, had a court which had none of these traditions, which had been set up with the authority to make conventions and traditions for itself in violation of all the traditions to which Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney appealed— for that reason, and for that reason only, they were able to get away with it. Is anyone denying that is what he said and that he spent his whole time saying it? But we protested against that portion of the performance. That particular condition which has produced the evil against which they now protest, was put in of set purpose, with his eyes open, by the very man who is now protesting against the consequences.

Mr. Morrissey

I submit, Sir, that the Deputy is openly flouting your ruling in continuing along the line which you forbid him to continue along.

Mr. T. Kelly

The Chair will look after that.

Mr. Morrissey

I am entitled to raise a point.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have already indicated to the Deputy that we must not discuss the merits or demerits of what is included, or what is excluded from an Act of the Oireachtas. No matter who introduced or sponsored it, it is an Act of the Oireachtas. It is under that Act that this court was set up. What was suggested should be introduced into that Act does not fall for discussion now.

Mr. Flinn

What the late Minister for Justice said was that those precise things to which I am now calling your attention were bringing that court, set up under the law of the Oireachtas, into contempt. That was the burden of it. He said that it was an untrained court, and went on to say that the Attorney-General had outraged all the traditions of Crown Prosecutors in Ireland. According to Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney, the duty of a prosecutor in Ireland——

Mr. V. Rice

You know all about it.

Mr. Flinn

I know a good deal about it.

Mr. Rice

From your Army experience?

Mr. Flinn

When I attempted to deal with that, I was ruled out of order on the motion of the Deputies opposite. I have no objection to speaking of my experience, but I know that as soon as I do so Deputies will rise to a point of order.

Mr. Rice

Your principal will object to speaking of his experience.

Mr. Flinn

I am prepared for it. The crown prosecutor in Ireland, according to Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney, has a splendid and noble tradition. Just think of this nice gentle, kindly, Christian, Irish-minded man; this whole succession of niceminded, Christian, kindly man who went into the court with no other object in the world but to inform the court of the facts, to bring out the facts and see justice done between the State and the accused. Is there any solitary soul in this House who recognises the traditions of the crown prosecutor from that description?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is there any money in this Vote for crown prosecutors?

Mr. Flinn

All I am telling you is that the Attorney-General was attacked in his personal honour, was attacked in his conscience, was attacked in his religious observance, on the ground that he was not living up to the sacred tradition of the crown prosecutor in Ireland.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary cannot defend the Attorney-General on the Estimate for Law Charges by any analogy as to what crown prosecutors did 50 years ago.

Mr. Morrissey

He is showing the same contempt for the Chair that his Minister showed.

Mr. Flinn

I am quoting word for word practically the nature of the attack made from those benches, upon the Attorney-General.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I assure the Parliamentary Secretary that the Chair does not recognise it.

Mr. Flinn

I am prepared, Sir, to produce the record. Is anybody going to say that he did not say that the tradition of the crown prosecutor in Ireland was an honourable, noble tradition while the actual conduct of my friend here was outrageous?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The position is that I cannot allow the Parliamentary Secretary to ramble back to tell us what were the characteristics of crown prosecutors in this country at a period long antecedent to this Vote.

Mr. Flinn

Here is portion of his actual speech—asking the House not to vote for an Estimate which contains the salary of an Attorney-General who fails in his duty, who shirks his duty, who like the coward, runs away from his duty, and who is afraid to put on trial men who have committed an offence of this nature, who have calmly and deliberately taken life——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is not one word about crown prosecutors in that statement.

Mr. Flinn

No. But the Deputy attacked as the equivalent of crown prosecutors, the men, his agents whom he sent into court. It was in relation to the actual conduct of these agents that the Attorney-General was here attacked. It was in relation to the salaries of these people that Deputy Morrissey has been talking here to-night.

Mr. Morrissey

I did not describe them as crown prosecutors.

Mr. Flinn

I do not care the toss of a coin what the Deputy described them as. There were no prosecutors here, other than crown prosecutors, until the Free State came into being.

Mr. Rice

You were one of them.

Mr. Flinn

Am I to take it from the members of the legal profession, that the only honourable period in the history of the Irish Bar began with the incorporation of the Irish Free State?

Mr. Morrissey

When they were pursuing the Deputy for conscription.

Mr. Flinn

If I dealt with conscription the Deputy would be on his feet to points of order, asking to have me ruled out of order.

Mr. Morrissey

The Deputy ran away from it.

Mr. Flinn

The Deputy would be bringing in points of order——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary should be allowed to make his statement. Any reference to conscription should not be introduced.

Mr. Morrissey

Nothing could be more irrelevant than the Deputy's speech.

Mr. Flinn

I should be perfectly out of order if I dealt with any interruptions from the Deputy, because he does not know how to make an orderly interruption. As far as I am concerned he can come along. The whole lot of them can come along. They will not do me any harm. I am dealing with the attack on the Attorney-General, whose salary is provided for in this Vote, and the allegation that he allows his agents to get away with certain evidence before a court of untrained men, set up by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney. They want to get away from that. They introduced points of order to stop that discussion. They want to get away from the speech and the attack of the Deputy. That is what they are using their points of order for, just to hide themselves. If it is possible for the Attorney-General to bring before the court evidence which Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney says is not evidence at all, why is it possible? I mean that is the charge. Who created the instrument? Who made it possible? "Oh, of course," they will say, "when we contrived this perfectly beautiful, Christian, almost divine instrument of justice under the Public Safety Act, we contrived it under the idea and the impression that there would always be on those benches Christian men. How are we to be held responsible because it is now producing these results?" Well, they are responsible in this sense: that but for their Act—I mean not merely their law, but for their actual operation of that Act—we could not have put it into operation. They went out leaving the Public Safety Act in operation. They left it for us to come in and take possession of it. Now you may say: "Well, that was very wrong, but there may have been some difficulty about it. There may have been some difficulty in removing this Act from the dangerous manipulation of these mad wild children of the Fianna Fáil Government." There was none. When the Cumann na nGaedheal Government went out and left that Act in operation, they were in control of the Seanad. They had got the Public Safety Act through in three hours.

Mr. Morrissey

Is the Deputy to be allowed to ramble over everything and to criticise an Act of this House in the way he is doing, notwithstanding the fact that you, Sir, have called him to order on no fewer than five occasions?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is not now criticising the Act.

Mr. Morrissey

May I ask if the Deputy is dealing with the Estimate before the House?

Mr. Corry

How long are you going to lecture the Chair?

Mr. Flinn

You would not think they were really anxious to hear me. I must call your attention to a scene, Sir, in this discussion. When Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney over there was speaking, somebody on this bench actually interrupted and Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney shrieked at him: "You are being hurt! You are being hurt!" Every time an interruption was made, he shrieked: "Now you are feeling it."

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am not interested in that. I am interested in hearing the Deputy on the Law Charges Vote and any criticism of the conduct of the House, even by implication, should not be made by the Deputy.

Mr. Flinn

I am congratulating my opponent, the ex-Minister for Justice, on having provided me with a very excellent description of Deputy Morrissey:

Mr. Morrissey

It is a pity the Deputy has not got a mirror in front of him.

Mr. Flinn

I think I will bring one in. Perhaps the House will allow me to tell them a story, which is strictly ad rem and it has to do with a mirror.

Mr. Morrissey

Has it anything to do with the Estimate?

Mr. Flinn

The Deputy, having brought in the mirror, now wants it ruled out of order, and anything else he drags in he will want ruled out of order immediately he brings it in.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is in very grave danger of being ruled out of order, as well as the mirror, unless he comes to the Law Charges Estimate very quickly.

Mr. Flinn

I propose to tell you a story, Sir, about a mirror, if I may.

Mr. V. Rice

On a point of order. Have you not ruled that discussion out, Sir?

Mr. Morrissey

On six occasions, the Deputy has been ruled out of order and he still continues and is allowed to continue.

Mr. T. Kelly

Can you not let the man tell the story?

Mr. Flinn

I am perfectly sure that the House wants to hear the story, even if they do not want to hear me.

Mr. Morrissey

I would much sooner hear a story from Deputy Kelly than from Deputy Flinn. There would be some wit in it.

Mr. Flinn

If Deputy Kelly were to tell a story, Deputy Morrissey would get up and ask that he be ruled out of order. From a rather backward portion of the country in which mirrors were not used——

Mr. V. Rice

Cork?

Mr. Flinn

——a certain old farmer came up here to visit the Land Commission. I understand that he wandered into Woolworth's or one of these places, and looking at all the nice, pretty little gadgets laid out, he picked up what he thought was a little framed picture. He looked at it and said, "Me ould father," and, at odd intervals, he used to look at this mirror and say "Me ould father." He brought the mirror home and at odd intervals looked into it, until the old lady began to wonder whose picture the old man had brought back from Dublin. She got hold of the picture and had a look at it and said "If that is the ould harridan he is after, he is welcome to her." Deputies opposite are accustomed to look out upon the world and see thieves and vagabonds and men disregarding the law, treating the courts with disrespect, breaking the law, and engaged in conspiracies for the purpose of tearing down the legal system of the State; they see people refusing to meet their honourable obligations and engaged in all sorts of depravities of that kind. They think they are looking at their opponents, but they are not. They are looking at the "ould harridan" in the glass.

The next thing that Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenny said was that men were being accused in this country by the Attorney-General and his overpaid minions, according to Deputy Morrissey, of crimes that were not crimes within the law. They are being accused of crimes that are crimes within the law constructed by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney, and those are practically the only special crimes of which they can be accused by the minions of the Attorney-General before the Military Tribunal. That was not all of the facilities which the Deputy provided so that untrained judges could carry out the evil behests of a criminally-minded Attorney-General. He left a machinery behind him and left it in operation when he could have put it on a shelf from which we could not have taken it down without the permission of the Seanad. He left in possession of that court the power to invent crime; he left it in the power of evil-minded officers of justice to accuse a man of a crime which was not a crime in law at the time the man actually committed it. That was one of the Deputy's great achievements, one of his great contributions to the liberty of the subject—the same man who, according to Mr. Justice Hanna, had provided a new statutory criminal offence—the offence of being suspected. He provided a machinery by which, without the intervention of any court of law of any kind, without the intervention of even this particular court which our friend is supposed to be misusing, merely because a sergeant of the Civic Guard stated that he suspected the man of intending to commit that crime, the man could be automatically banished from the country.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

For the last time, I am indicating to the Deputy that he must not pursue that line. He is discussing the terms of the Act under which the Military Tribunal is set up and he must desist from that.

Mr. Morrissey

The seventh warning.

Mr. Flinn

Deputies are not complaining of the Act; they are complaining of the operation of the Act. How can they complain of the operation of the Act when the ex-Attorney-General, speaking of that precise Tribunal which Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney says is being misused, said: "I have every confidence in the Military Tribunal"—every confidence in that precise Chamber which is allowing this criminal here, through his agents, to get away with the criminal malpractices of which Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenny accuses him. That may not be precise enough. It may be that it was for the principle, for the sacred and holy principle of trial by the Military Tribunal that Deputy Costello was speaking, so we will come along to an expert who makes sure that there shall not be any doubt that it is precisely this Tribunal, which is capable of and is actually being, according to them, continuously and continually misused by the Attorney-General, in which they have confidence. "I am perfectly satisfied," says Deputy Dillon, "that, under the Public Safety Act, as at present administered by the five officers in Portobello Barracks, justice will be done." The law they passed, the court they set up, the rules of court which they envisaged, the powers which they arranged, the precise personnel which they put upon the bench, and yet they come here to say that my poor innocent friend the Attorney-General is able to pull the wool over their eyes. "I am perfectly satisfied that under the Public Safety Act as at present administered by the five officers in Portobello Barracks that justice will be done." In spite of the fact that the late Attorney-General had every confidence in the Military Tribunal and of the fact that Deputy Dillon is satisfied "that the Public Safety Act as at present administered by the five officers in Portobello Barracks that justice will be done," they still come here and say that the whole liberty of the subject, and the whole decency of human life, in face of the law, is being outraged. I do not know what they would say.

Now, I am not by any means a defender of this system. I should be very glad indeed to see that that system, that child of Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney's was stifled now. I would be very glad indeed to see that the Frankenstein that has arisen to curse them should be put under the sod. But they have no cause for complaint. They made the whip for themselves; they surrounded it with every possible machinery by which they could make it of evil effect to political opponents. It was contrived for the purpose, and if to-day that lash lies heavy on any of them they deserve it, but it is a great pity that such an instrument should be in the country to have to be used for other people. But the time is coming. I hope the time is coming soon, when there will be no possibility of Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney being able to complain in this manner; when there will be machinery in existence by which temporary and emergency legislation to deal with temporary and emergency conditions can be passed in the form in which it is required to deal with a particular occasion. Up to the present this Government had no power to alter one single provision of that particular Act without the permission of a majority which was controlled by those opposite. If, and when, that machinery does come into existence, I hope it will be used to see that there is a system of the kind that cannot be abused.

Now has it been abused? I do not know. I do know that the people who created that Act, and who set out in it specific provisions, went into the ordinary courts to say that those specific provisions did not exist. I have seen attempt after attempt made by those who were responsible for the machinery of that court to break down its powers and authority. I do see the dangers in an arrangement of that sort, but is there any man in this House who wants a tribunal which shall be a military tribunal if he can get a civil tribunal? But what do we find in the case of people who are brought before that court, which is being abused by the Attorney-General, for crimes which are not crimes of a political character at all, which are specifically ordinary offences: of men trying to de-rail trains, trying to break up roads, and firing into houses? When they have been convicted before that tribunal which Deputy Dillon says "as at present administered by the five officers will give justice" and punished by that court, what happens when they go back to the country? The lovers of law and order, the people who think that the crown prosecutor has a tradition of justice in this country, what do they do? They turn out to welcome and to congratulate them, to flag their towns and cities for them and to say to them, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant, keep on doing it." What single one of those people who have been convicted by that court which Deputy Dillon says he "is satisfied will give justice" has been banned from the good political society of the Deputies opposite as a result of the offences that they have committed? How can you have justice administered in the country, how on earth can you expect the comfortable, smooth administration of justice under those conditions?

Complaint was made here in relation to actions that were taking place at seizures and auctions of that kind. Who made it necessary? What is the cost to the community, and what is the cost under this Vote of the conduct of Deputies opposite and of the organisations to which they belong in encouraging people in these matters? They can get rid not merely of the abuses of the Public Safety Act, the Public Danger Act, but they can get rid of the Act itself. They can get it put back into cold storage and in a very short time, I think, they can get it removed from the Statute Book altogether if they will cease encouraging the organised propagation of crime for political purposes. Are they going to do that? No. They prefer to come here and to attack everybody who has anything to do with the administration of justice. The Guards, that do not come under this Vote at all, were dragged in by a Deputy who said that they did not come under it. They were dragged in simply for the purpose of offering an ugly innuendo against them. Is that the sort of thing that is going to help the administration of justice? Is that the sort of thing that is going to get the people behind the administration of justice? Is that the sort of thing that is going to make the people uphold justice? They do not want law. What they want is dominance. The people had the damned impudence and abysmal ignorance to change the Government and to put in here a lot of looters, a lot of murderers and a lot of Communists.

Mr. Morrissey

And conscripts.

Mr. Flinn

And conscripts. If I say a word about that, the Deputy will get up and ask that I be ruled out of order. I am simply asking the Deputy to make any interruption and, when I deal with it I hope he will not raise a point of order. It is not a nice thing, and not a pleasant thing, to have to administer justice in the conditions under which we have to administer it. It is not a nice thing to have to seize cattle for the purpose of getting annuities. It is not a nice thing either that what was the Government of the country, and that is trying to imagine itself as a possible alternative Government, should be engaged in creating a condition of affairs which requires artificial measures of this kind. I am perfectly satisfied that any of the Opposition who have been engaged in those practices and who have "got it in the neck" have deserved it. If they "get it in the neck 400 times more" they will have no cause of complaint against the instrument that they contrived for the purpose. I am sorry that they have left on the Statute Book an Act of that kind. I am sorry their conduct has made it necessary to use that instrument. I am sorry their control of another House has prevented us from producing a right and proper substitute for it. I hope the time is coming soon when they will get a little sense.

Mr. P. Daly

They will not seize your cattle, anyhow.

Mr. Flinn

If I answered the Deputy, Deputy Morrissey would get up and ask: "Is the Deputy in order?"

Mr. Morrissey

And it would be no use. He will not rule you out of order whether you are or not.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will withdraw that statement. Deputy Morrissey makes a charge against the Chair that Deputy Flinn would not be ruled out of order whether he was in order or not. Deputy Morrissey will withdraw that statement with regard to the Chair.

Mr. Morrissey

The Deputy has been grossly out of order for the last quarter of an hour, and the Chair ruled seven times that he was out of order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That may be Deputy Morrissey's opinion, but he must not, by expression or implication, charge the Chair with not ruling Deputy Flinn out of order when he is not in order.

Mr. Morrissey

The Deputy was out of order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Does the Deputy withdraw the statement?

Mr. Morrissey

I will not. It is quite true.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If the Deputy will not withdraw the statement he will have to leave the Chamber.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy is not leaving the Chamber.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the Deputy going to withdraw the statement or to leave the Chamber?

Mr. Morrissey

I am not going to withdraw the statement because it is true. You told him he was not in order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Then I will have to send for the Ceann Comhairle and get the Deputy suspended.