There are nine amendments to the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Bill as sent down from the Seanad. To eight of these, I shall ask the House to agree, but I shall ask them to disagree with No. 3.
Adjournment of the Dáil. - Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Bill, 1935—From the Seanad.
Amendments Nos. 1 and 2, as follows, agreed to:—
1. Section 2, sub-section (1). After the word "instruction" in line 53, and as part of the definition of the expression "the appointed age" the words "and except in the case of a child who on attaining the age of fourteen years is, owing to physical or mental infirmity neither able to receive full-time instruction at a day school nor to engage in any remunerative occupation, when the said expression means the age (not exceeding sixteen years) up to which such physical or mental infirmity continues;" inserted.
2. Section 11. The word "widow" deleted in line 25 and the word "woman" substituted therefor.
I move: That the Committee disagree with the Seanad in amendment No. 3:—
Section 22, sub-section (2). The words "six months" deleted in lines 1 and 2, and the words "two years" substituted therefor.
Would the Minister give us his reasons for moving to disagree?
The primary reason is that it would add, at any rate in the first years, at least £20,000 a year to the cost. I am afraid that would be impossible, in view of the experience I have already had.
Perhaps, as the Minister is fresh from the Seanad, he would give us a little more information on the subject, and perhaps he would sketch for us a little more fully what the effect of the amendment would be?
Section 22 provides that a non-contributory pension payable to a widow shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, continue to be payable until she attains the age of 70 years and shall then cease unless she previously remarries, in which case the said pension shall cease as on and from such remarriage. Then, sub-section (2) (b) provides that where
the widow to whom such pension was granted has not at the date of such cesser attained the age of fifty-nine years and six months, such pension shall cease to be payable on the expiration of six months after the date of such cesser, without prejudice however to the re-grant of a widow's non-contributory pension to her when she attains the age of sixty years.
Roughly, it means that when a widow has one orphan who reaches the age of 14—or 16 years if the child is attending a school or institution whole time —she loses the pension, if she has not reached the age of 60, six months after the child reaching that age. The Seanad proposed two years instead of six months. I resisted that amendment but it was carried against me. It would add, as I say, £20,000 probably for the first five or six years of the operation of the Bill.
May we take it that if the Minister finds himself flush of money he will reconsider the matter later? No doubt the Minister for Finance will be very glad to provide him with the funds necessary.
There are a number of things that I would like to see done and that is one of them.
I think the Seanad is to be congratulated on inserting a provision of this kind. It is apparent that, when this Bill was under discussion on a former occasion it was not realised that the section to which the Minister referred, if allowed to remain, would inflict great hardship on widows. We feel that there is a very marked improvement in the change that the Seanad proposes to make in the Bill. We are supporting this proposal of the Seanad and we dissent entirely from the Minister's view that it ought to be rejected.
Does the Deputy wish to be recorded as dissenting or does he challenge a division?
We want a division.
Question put: "That the Committee disagree to amendment No. 3."
The Committee divided: Tá, 50; Níl, 27.
Tá
- Aiken, Frank.
- Beegan, Patrick.
- Blaney, Neal.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Brady, Brian.
- Breen, Daniel.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Browne, William Frazer.
- Concannon, Helena.
- Corry, Martin John.
- Crowley, Timothy.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- De Valera, Eamon.
- Doherty, Hugh.
- Donnelly, Eamon.
- Flinn, Hugo V.
- Moane, Edward.
- Moore, Séamus.
- Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
- O Briain, Donnchadh.
- O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
- O'Doherty, Joseph.
- O'Grady, Seán.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- Pearse, Margaret Mary.
- Flynn, Stephen.
- Geoghegan, James.
- Gibbons, Seán.
- Goulding, John.
- Harris, Thomas.
- Houlihan, Patrick.
- Keely, Séamus P.
- Kehoe, Patrick.
- Kelly, Thomas.
- Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
- Kilroy, Michael.
- Lemass, Seán F.
- Little, Patrick John.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Maguire, Conor Alexander.
- Rice, Edward.
- Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, Martin.
- Ryan, Robert.
- Sheridan, Michael.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Walsh, Richard.
- Ward, Francis C.
Níl
- Burke, Patrick.
- Byrne, Alfred.
- Coburn, James.
- Cosgrave, William T.
- Desmond, William.
- Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
- Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
- Keating, John.
- Keyes, Michael.
- Lavery, Cecil.
- McFadden, Michael Og.
- McGilligan, Patrick.
- McMenamin, Daniel.
- Morrisroe, James.
- Morrissey, Daniel.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Murphy, James Edward.
- Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
- Norton, William.
- O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
- O'Mahony, The.
- O'Neill, Eamonn.
- O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
- Pattison, James P.
- Redmond, Bridget Mary.
- Reidy, James.
- Rice, Vincent.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies T.J. Murphy and Pattison.
Question declared carried.
Amendments Nos. 4, 5, 6 and 7 are drafting amendments. I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in those amendments:
Section 25. The words "in case such child is not resident in an institution or" deleted in line 34 and the words "in case such child is neither detained in a reformatory or industrial school nor resident in an institution nor" substituted therefor.
Section 25. Before the word "resident" in line 42 the words "detained in a reformatory or industrial school or" inserted.
Section 25. Before the word "institution" in line 44 the words "reformatory or industrial school or" inserted.
Section 25. Before the word "institution" in line 47 the words "reformatory or industrial school or" inserted.
Question agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 8:
Before Section 54 a new section inserted as follows:—
54. —In granting relief, otherwise than in an institution, to a person in receipt of or entitled to receive a pension, a public assistance authority shall not take into consideration any such pension, except so far as such pension exceeds five shillings a week.
This gives further relief—the new, section inserted by the Seanad—in the sense of not counting certain income of persons when measuring the income for widows' pensions purposes.
Question agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 9:—
New section. Before Section 73 a new section inserted as follows:—
73. —Where—
(a) the employer of an insured person, within the meaning of the National Health Insurance Acts or this Act, is charged with an offence in relation to payment of contributions due by him under the said Acts or this Act, and
(b) the Court proposes to make an order under sub-section (1) of Section 1 of the Probation of Offenders Act, 1907.
the Court shall not make such Order until it is satisfied that all arrears in respect of such contributions have been paid by such employer.
This also, to some extent, is giving further relief. Its object is to make sure that if a person is brought to court and is convicted of failure to stamp a card, and gets off under the First Offenders Act, the person convicted must pay the sum due.
Question agreed to.
Disagreement reported to amendment No. 3 and agreement reported to remaining amendments; the Seanad to be notified accordingly.
The Dáil adjourned at 10 p.m. until Wednesday, 30th October, at 3 p.m.