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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Mar 1936

Vol. 61 No. 3

Adjournment—Arbitration in the Civil Service.

I addressed a question to the Minister for Finance to-day as to whether he had received a communication dated 27th January last, from the Post Office Workers' Union and the Civil Service Clerical Association, the two largest organisations in the Civil Service, requesting an interview with him on the subject of setting up an arbitration board, which would be mutually acceptable to these organisations and the Government; and whether in view of the promise made by the President of the Executive Council over his own signature, that he was prepared to establish an arbitration board, the Minister would receive the deputation as requested, so that a satisfactory scheme of arbitration might be devised. To that question the Minister made a lengthy reply, the substance of which was that he did not propose to receive the deputation, until such time as he had obtained the views of other organisations in the Civil Service; as if the Minister was by now unaware of the views which have been expressed by these organisations on the Minister's draft scheme of arbitration. In order to get this question of arbitration in its proper perspective it is necessary to go back to 1932, to hear from the present President of the Executive Council his views on the subject Speaking in Rathmines Town Hall—I think on behalf of the present Minister for Finance, who was a candidate for the County Dublin Constituency, and having, no doubt, an eye on the fact that there was a considerable number of civil servants in that Constituency who would have ballot papers handed to them on polling day—the President used these words:—

"I believe it is only right that there should be an arbitration board for the Civil Service to deal with matters between the Service and the Executive. We would be prepared to agree that an arbitration board be set up, and would assent to an inquiry into the basis on which the cost of living is calculated."

There the President expressed the view, in a very definite manner, that he believed it was only right that an arbitration board for the Civil Service should be established to deal with matters in dispute between the Executive and Civil Service organisations. That was on the 28th January, 1932. The present President apparently thought that that was not sufficiently emphatic, because in February, 1932, he published a half page advertisement in the Press which contained a declaration of programme and an appeal to the electorate. Item number seven in the programme read:

"We are prepared to institute an inquiry into the basis on which the cost-of-living figure is calculated, and to establish an arbitration board to deal with the grievances of Civil Servants."

In a very definite and in a very specific manner the present President of the Executive Council not merely promised an arbitration board twice, but made it clear that he believed it was only right, even if there was never an election presumably, that an arbitration board should be established to deal with these grievances. The Civil Service expected there would be no delay on the part of the Government, in view of these specific promises by the President, in having the arbitration board constituted to deal with matters in dispute. But the Government took a roundabout way of establishing the arbitration board. It was generally believed that the President's declaration was a promise to establish an arbitration board, as it is popularly and industrially known—in other words, to establish a lay court, where the staff on the one hand, and the Minister on the other hand, could bring their claims and secure a definite judgment in the way that arbitration machinery generally provides for the declaration of judgment in matters of that kind. There was no question of there being any peculiar hybrid sort of arbitration. There was no qualification in the scheme. It was a frank and candid declaration by the President, that there was to be an arbitration board, and obviously that meant a board of the type with which people are familiar. After a while, however, it became clear that the Executive Council, or the Minister for Finance, thought it was necessary to have a tribunal to advise them as to the kind of arbitration board that should be constituted. There was no tribunal set up to advise the Party prior to 1932. The President definitely promised arbitration in 1932, and the making of the promise having produced the necessary electoral result, then there was to be an inquiry as to how this arbitration could be applied to the settlement of matters in dispute, clearly indicating in the view of the service organisations, that the Executive Council had decided that it was better to hedge on this issue than implement in a bold and honourable manner the promise specifically made by the President and which was relied upon by civil servants. However, after two or three years' cogitation by the Executive Council, the Department of Finance and the Brennan Commission of Inquiry which was set up to assist the Minister in the matter, the service organisations were furnished on the 8th June last with a document from the Department for Finance which was described as: "Heads of the Draft Scheme of Arbitration for the Civil Service," together with notes on certain of the heads, and a letter from the Department of Finance containing this paragraph:

"The Minister will be glad to receive in due course the written observations, of your association on the draft scheme. Any information required by the association in addition to that contained in the document enclosed will, as far as practicable, be sent to you on receipt of a written request in this Department."

The scheme submitted as a draft scheme of arbitration was the most remarkable draft scheme of arbitration anyone ever read. It is described as a draft scheme of arbitration; it might more correctly be described as a draft scheme of arbitration, because there is none of the features of arbitration as popularly and industrially known contained in the scheme which the Minister furnished to the staff organisations. The staff organisations, some individually and some in consultation with others, considered the Minister's scheme, and although there is a multiplicity of organisations in the Civil Service catering for particular grades, and some which cater for a comprehensive variety of grades, all except one of them rejected—some in most unmeasured language—this draft scheme of arbitration submitted by the Minister. It was left to one tiny organisation with a membership of 100 to 150 to be induced into the spider's web woven by the Minister. The rest of the organisations would not dream of attempting to implement the Minter's conception of arbitration as indicated in this document. The Post Office Workers' Union and the Civil Service Clerical Associations wrote to the Minister indicating that the scheme was unsatisfactory and unacceptable to them, and that they desired an opportunity of discussing the matter with him in order that the views of both sides might be harmonised, and a satisfactory scheme of arbitration evolved. It was necessary that the organisations concerned should write to the Minister in these terms, because the scheme of arbitration submitted by him was utterly unacceptable. In the scheme which the Minister submitted he proposed to circumscribe the choice of representatives by the staff. He was to be represented at the arbitration tribunal by any person he cared to select, and he was also to have a say as to the person the staff selected. It is rather an unusual role for a defendant to be able to select his own counsel and, at the same time, to claim a veto over the counsel which the plaintiff would employ. In substance, the Minister sought to do that in this remarkable scheme of arbitration which he produced.

Would the Deputy give the House his authority for that statement?

In paragraph 12 of the heads of the scheme it was provided that the only persons who could come before the board——

The Deputy said the staffs' representatives on the arbitration board.

I was talking about the staffs' advocates. I clearly said that the Minister wanted to be free to select his own counsel in a case in which he was the defendant, and to have the same say, by way of restriction, on the counsel which the plaintiffs would employ.

I understood the Deputy to say that the Minister wanted to control the staffs' representatives on the arbitration board.

No. The Minister did not go as far as that, but I think he was doing fairly well by being free to select his own counsel to defend him there, and by wanting to interfere with the staffs' right to select people of their choice. However, the Minister, I take it, now accepts the position.

Well, then if I am to read this the time occupied in doing so will have to come out of the 15 minutes allowed to the Minister. It was provided, firstly, that civil servants only could appear before the board, and that nobody else could appear before the board for them. They might desire to select other persons, but they could only appear before the board as individual civil servants representative of the classes concerned.

Read paragraph 12 and see does it bear that interpretation.

It is provided that "the class of civil servants concerned in a claim referred to the board may select not more than three serving civil servants of that class."

So they may select their own representatives.

Of that class as individuals and as advocates to present the claim to the board. In that way they were prevented from being represented by the officers of their organisation. They were not to be given a free choice then to select representatives, because the Minister prescribed that they must, in selecting persons to represent them before the board, be represented by three persons who as civil servants were responsible to the Minister, the defendant in the case. They were not to be permitted to be represented by counsel, by solicitors or by the officers of their own organisation. The Minister could select whom he liked to represent him, but the staff were to be represented by serving civil servants and not by officers of their organisation of their own choice.

The Minister's audacity did not end there. He proposed also that he should have a veto over the matters which were referred to arbitration; in other words, that you would have to get the permission of the Minister before you could go to arbitration with the Minister, which is equivalent to saying to the plaintiff: "You must get the defendant's permission before you can have the matter adjudicated upon by the court," and in case that was not sufficient the Minister was to take power to fix the terms of reference of the arbitration tribunal. The reason given for that was so as to produce clarity. The production of clarity was to be all on the side of the Minister. The staff were not to be allowed to fix the terms of reference which they desired should be submitted to the court, and even when the arbitration tribunal had heard the case and given a judgment which ought to be binding on both sides, subject to the overriding authority of the Oireachtas—it having a veto in the matter if it cared to exercise it—the Minister would not, be bound by a judgment of that kind.

The Minister's scheme provided that the decision of the arbitration tribunal would not be a judgment binding on him, but would merely be a recommendation to the Executive Council which the Executive Council could accept or reject. The picture then was: the Minister circumscribed the staff's choice of representatives; he had a veto over the matters to go to arbitration; he could fix the terms of reference, and if a verdict was given against him by an independent chairman, then that verdict was only to be regarded as a recommendation and he was free to flout it if he so choose. In fact, in case it would be known what the recommendation was like, the recommendation was to be a confidential document. The staffs organisations naturally rejected a scheme of arbitration of that kind, and asked the Minister for Finance to receive a deputation for the purpose of harmonising their views on arbitration with those expressed by him in that extraordinary document. They wrote to the Minister on 27th January, and said to him that an arbitration scheme to be acceptable to them should provide for the freedom of the organisations to select their own representatives before the tribunal, that the organisations should have the right to bring any matter to arbitration within the broad category of cases which might be referred to arbitration. They suggested that the terms of reference should be prepared jointly, and that, if there was failure to agree on that, each side could submit its terms of reference and allow the court to decide the matter on that basis. They suggested also that the finding of the board on any scheme should be final and binding subject to the overriding authority of the Oireachtas. The staff desired to see the Minister on this matter for the purpose of endeavouring to harmonise their views with those held by him, as they were invited to do in the letter received from the Department of Finance. Although the Minister has now had this request before him for almost two months from the two largest organisations in the Service, he is not apparently, prepared to receive a deputation to discuss a scheme of arbitration to be set up in accordance with the promise made by the President of the Executive Council in 1932. I put it to the Minister that it is obviously his duty to set up a scheme which would provide the best means of having disputes between both sides decided in a reasonable manner. The elements of fair play and justice would come more into play under such a scheme than under the draft scheme which is unacceptable to the staffs' organisations. The only organisation that the Minister could get to accept the draft scheme was a tiny organisation of about 100 members and it is not at all improbable that if it were properly explained to the members of that organisation that they also would reject it. There are the clearest indications that this draft scheme is unacceptable to the staffs' organisations. The President made a promise that was accepted as a pledge by civil servants, and I submit that there should be no hesitation on the part of the Executive Council in implementing that promise. The Minister told the House to-day that he did not give a blank cheque to anyone to fill in. Nobody has asked him for a blank cheque to fill in. The Service organisations do not want a blank cheque, and neither do they want a dud cheque. I suggest to the Minister that he ought receive this deputation from the two largest organisations in the Service, and in that way help to produce a satisfactory arbitration scheme, one that will be mutually acceptable.

I understood that the matter which the Deputy was to raise on the adjournment was to be strictly related to the question put down on the Order Paper. The Deputy, in fact, has resolved this into a discussion of the merits of certain proposals which were submitted to staff organisations for their considerations and observations. I think that it is a matter that will require a much longer time than I can devote to it to-night to deal with in order to show that there are sound constitutional grounds and sound reasons in the public interest why the particular scheme which we have submitted should be considered by the staff organisations and should be given practical effect to by a Statute of the Oireachtas. Now, it is not denied that a pledge was given to establish an arbitration board and that pledge, if the Oireachtas gives us the authority, will be given statutory effect to. But it is clear from the speech we have listened to from Deputy Norton, that the meaning of arbitration has been wholly lost sight of by the staff organisations in their consideration of this matter. Arbitration is essentially a process where two people agree to refer a certain matter to some person who is appointed as an arbitrator, who will listen to the arguments on both sides and who will express an opinion which, normally, would be binding upon the parties who made the reference to arbitration on the matter at issue in order to reconcile the difference which had arisen between them.

Here we have Deputy Norton talking about "We must get permission before we go to arbitration." What does that mean? It means this, that the Minister for Finance, representing the general taxpayer in the country, must agree that a certain matter will be referred to an arbitration board, If there were a dispute between two parties outside, would not both parties have to agree? But what we are asked here is that instead of an arbitration board should be constituted a court —"a lay court"— and that whether or not the Minister for Finance is prepared to agree that a certain matter is a proper subject for arbitration, he is to be haled before that court, as Deputy Norton says. The Minister for Finance is to be put in the position of a defendant at common law, in the position of some person who is alleged to have committed a tort or to have been guilty of some wrongdoing against another person and, whether he consents to be a party to these proceedings or not, he is to be brought before the court and put in the dock as a defendant. That is not a position in which any member of the Government, of any Government, could permit himself to be placed in regard to the public service.

This question of arbitration is a very difficult one and, because we recognised its difficulties, we set up a commission of impartial persons representative, as we thought, of all shades of the community and having among its members persons who had been civil servants and were familiar with Civil Service conditions. They considered this question of arbitration at length and they pointed out the very serious constitutional difficulties which were in the way. They emphasised, among other things, that the Government could not divest themselves of a responsibility which might ultimately involve an increase, and a very serious increase, in public taxation, and that they could not entrust the control of the public purse in the matter of the cost of the Civil Service, to a body which was not responsible to the Dáil or to the people. That was the first difficulty. They went on to refer to the constitutional position and, having considered this matter at length, the majority agreed that the principle of arbitration might be applied to the consideration of matters which arose between the Minister for Finance, on the one hand, and the civil servants on the other, within the limitations necessarily imposed by the Constitution and by the fact that, even though the ultimate responsibility for taxation rested with the Oireachtas, the Government of the day must primarily assume responsibility for making proposals to the Oireachtas which would involve an increase in public expenditure.

It has been said by Deputy Norton that when the statement on arbitration was made by the President in Rathmines the Civil Service thought it meant that there would be set up something which would be what was popularly known as arbitration. Most of the civil servants in the Free State are transferred officers. They are very well aware of the conditions on the other side and of the conditions which exist elsewhere, and I am perfectly certain many of them have studied the introductory memoranda relating to the Civil Service, submitted by the Treasury to the Royal Commission on the Civil Service in 1929 and are aware of the fact that even on the other side of the Irish Sea the limitations which properly must apply to an arbitration scheme affecting the Civil Service are recognised and are acted on. Here is an extract from a communication of the British Financial Secretary dated 9th March, 1926, in which he says, among other things:—

"But behind all such questions there is an underlying principle which must never be lost sight of. It is that the Government of the day, to whatever political Party it may belong, is responsible to Parliament for the administration of the public service. It cannot relieve itself of this responsibility, or share it with any other persons or organisation. When, therefore, the Government accepted the principle of arbitration for the settlement of disputes arising between the Executive and servants of the State, in the earnest desire to promote the harmonious working of our institutions under fair conditions of service for all concerned, it could only do so within certain defined limits and it could not delegate to any other authority the duty of determining what those limits should be."

Thus, even in Great Britain, the limitations are recognised.

Can the Minister say whether the British scheme of arbitration imposes the same limitations as his scheme?

I merely say the necessity for these limitations is recognised to exist elsewhere just as it exists here.

The scheme in Great Britain does not impose the limitations embodied in the scheme submitted by the Minister.

A commission of impartial, competent persons devoted a great deal of time and labour to investigating this question of the practicability of applying the principle of arbitration to the Civil Service. I believe that within the limitations of the Constitution they have produced a scheme which, I think, is a sound and workable scheme of arbitration, and which I am prepared to ask the Oireachtas to give statutory effect to. In any event, whether the Civil Service associations take that view or not, at least this scheme, backed by such representative opinion, by such weighty public opinion, should have received the courtesy of serious consideration by the Civil Service organisations. But, as Deputy Norton has told us, that was not the manner in which it was received by some of these organisations. It was rejected, as he admitted, by some of them in most unmeasured language. This very carefully detailed examination of the whole position was thrown to one side and the attitude which the Civil Service organisations are asking us now to adopt is to line ourselves up with them, throw this report over altogether and repudiate these people, these public-spirited citizens who have given so much time and attention and devoted so much effort to produce an arbitration scheme which, I believe, would be workable and which, I believe, when it is being worked, will give general satisfaction to the Civil Service.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. till Tuesday, 31st March, 1936.

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