Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 24 Apr 1936

Vol. 61 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Department of Local Government and Public Health.

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration (Deputy Brennan)

Mr. Holohan

There are a few matters I should like to bring to the Minister's attention. The first is the damage that is being done to fences beside the roads in connection with the cleaning of roads. That is a matter I should like the Minister to direct his attention to so that it will not be continued, because it is doing very considerable harm to fences and hedges. The road scrapings, and particularly the scrapings from water channels and passages in many cases, are thrown on top of the hedges, and sometimes on top of the bank at the foot of the fences. Nothing is more injurious to young bushes than these scrapings. I would ask the Minister to give the matter his attention so that the people in authority would realise that it is not a practice that should be continued. I have not made any report on the matter to the Commissioner in Kilkenny, but I think it is a practice that should not be continued because it is doing very much harm.

The second point I want to put forward is that in places where there is no quick hedge or fence, and in some cases where there is, the road scrapings are thrown over the fence into the land, without any authority from the owner of that land. That is not a proper practice either, because there are a lot of weeds and seeds in these scrapings that will do a certain amount of damage to the land, especially if it is tillage land. Some people might not object to this practice at all, but others do, because they have made complaints to me and that is why I mention the matter here.

A third matter I want to direct the Minister's attention to is the making of cottage fences in rural areas. These fences, in the locality where I am living, are big clay banks about five feet wide at the foundation, and four and a half feet wide at the top, and they may be built of some of the best soil on the land the plotholder is going to take over. I know that in many cases the subsoil is practically useless from the point of view of growing anything. Banks of that size will take a considerable amount of clay, and the best of the clay is used. I would recommend to the Minister that some other arrangement should be found so that much of the land to be given over to the plotholders will not be destroyed. I think that a concrete wall of about six inches wide, and about four feet high would be sufficient. It may not cost as much and there would be very much more land for the occupier of the cottage. As I say, as things are at present, there would be about five feet of land taken up by the bank and that amount of land is taken off the acre. I consider that it would be a great help to the owner of the land to have a concrete wall of about six inches wide and four feet high. Apart from the space taken up by the bank, I doubt if it would last. The concrete wall, on the other hand, would be more lasting. Of course, a whitethorn hedge is put into the bank, but it will take some years for such a hedge to develop, and in the meantime you will have young cattle doing considerable damage to these banks before the hedges can afford them any protection. A little wall of the kind I have suggested would be a great protection. It would be quite strong enough and would serve the purpose of giving a good deal more land to the owner of the plot.

Another matter to which I wish to refer is that, in the rural areas, we find it very inconvenient at times to notify a doctor or a veterinary surgeon when we have anyone sick in the house or when we have a sick animal. In most of our local post offices there is a telephone apparatus installed, and if there could be some arrangement arrived at whereby telephones could be installed in the houses of doctors and veterinary surgeons, it would be a great acquisition and convenience to the people in the local areas. Of course, we can send a telegram from most of the post offices, but in a telegram, for 1/6 or 2/-, you can say very little, whereas if you had an opportunity of talking for three minutes over the telephone you could say a good deal and could explain to the doctor what you thought was wrong with the patient, or explain to the veterinary surgeon what you thought was wrong with a sick animal. Even though it might entail a little extra cost on the State or the rate-payers, I think they would be prepared to meet a portion of the cost— say, half on the doctor and half on the rates—or some such arrangement. It would be of the greatest assistance to us in the country, because in some parts of the country we are from 12 to 15 miles away from the doctor, and the same applies to the veterinary surgeon. I do not need to tell anybody here that an hour or two hours, in the case of a sick person or a sick animal, might serve to save their lives. A couple of hours means a lot, and if telephones were installed in the houses of the doctors and veterinary surgeons, we could 'phone to them from the local post office and state what we ourselves thought was wrong. In that way, we would be saving the doctor's time and he could bring the required medicine or surgical apparatus, or whatever he thought necessary. As I have said, one cannot say very much in a telegram costing 1/6 or 2/-. I think that this matter is worthy of consideration, and I ask the Minister for Local Government and Public Health to consider it. It would be a great convenience to the farmers and also to the poor. Doctors do not always insist on a red ticket being handed to them by a poor person. There may be an odd doctor here and there, but as far as I know, doctors do not insist on the strict letter of the law in that respect. Some doctors do not mind whether the red ticket is handed to them or whether he gets it when he calls to the house. Accordingly, if some such arrangement as I have suggested with regard to the installation of telephones could be arrived at, it would be a great help to the poor as well as to the farmers, and I suggest that the Minister should take the matter under consideration.

I do not think there is very much more that I have to say, except that I should like to know who is responsible for the upkeep of the fences erected around those cottages in the rural areas—whether it is the tenant living in the cottage or the local authority—because I am of opinion that the banks that are being built at the moment will not last long, and there will be trouble in a year or two. They will be falling down through cattle scratching against them. If some of these young black cattle get near a fence, I do not think any bank would be able to stand the pucking they will give it. I do not know whether it is the local authority or the tenant that is responsible for the upkeep of these fences, and I think that that should be made known to the people in time. At any rate, as I said before, that is why I am more or less inclined to recommend the concrete wall about which I spoke in the beginning of my speech. I think it is very necessary that some such arrangement should be come to in the near future.

There is another matter to which I should like to refer, and that is the matter of the tarring of roads. Of course, I need not say that I am not opposed in any way to the tarring of the roads, because I realise that the surface cannot be kept without tarring. I know that it is necessary that the roads should be tarred. even though we farmers suffer great inconvenience by the tarring where horse-traffic and even cattle are concerned. We suffer a good deal of loss through accidents due to the tarring, but I do not think that can be helped. I should like to suggest, however, that a margin of about three feet or three and a half feet beside the road should always be left untarred; and I hold that none of the head officials, county surveyor or anybody else, should be allowed to tar the road from side to side. The margin which has been left on some roads is sometimes neglected. I know it is not easy to repair the margin because the steam roller cannot be used upon it, but the margin is very essential to farmers. Horses must be newly shod to travel safely on a tarred road and they cannot at all times be kept in that condition. They are therefore very liable to fall on a tarred road and many horses have been hurt in that way, while those in charge of them are also in danger. Farmers are held responsible for accidents that may happen in that way.

We have also suffered a good deal from accidents to cattle on the roads, especially milch cows. I live beside a main road which has been tarred for the last 15 or 16 years and, although I am in favour of tarring roads, I have suffered a great deal of inconvenience and loss owing to it. At least three or four of my cattle have been hurt on the roads and some of them have had to be sent to the kennels. We are prepared to suffer loss because we cannot see any other method by which the roads can be kept in proper repair, but I would urge on the Minister that provision should be made for such a margin as I have suggested. I hope the Minister will give consideration to the few matters which I have brought to his attention.

Mrs. Concannon

No Vote in this book of Estimates makes contact with the lives of women at so many points and affects them so intimately and profoundly as the Vote we are now considering. It seems fitting, therefore, that a woman's voice should be heard for a few moments in expressing the thanks of her sisters for what the Minister has done for them. Many of the things we are providing for in this Vote, such as good housing, improved sanitation, increased and improved hospital accommodation, good milk, school inspection, dental and optical benefits, help women in their heavy task and they make secure the health of their children. Therefore, I think we ought to take great interest in these things and thank the Minister for giving them so much attention.

I only propose to say a few words about points which have come under my own notice or which have struck me when listening to the debate. One of the things to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention in connection with housing is the type of heating arrangement in the new houses. This matter ought to be taken up in connection with our plans for the turf campaign. In Galway we have always used turf. I myself am never willingly without a load of turf. Everybody knows that a special sort of grate gives the best results with turf. In some of the houses that have been provided under the new schemes very unsuitable ranges have been provided. Ranges are not suitable for turf. Indeed, what we used to call ranges are altogether out of date. I am very glad to see that the Turf Board are giving attention to this very vital problem of suitable heating and cooking arrangements in connection with the use of turf.

Another matter I want to speak about is the county homes. I agree heartily with what Deputy Dillon said, that it is essential that they should be made as pleasant as possible for the occupants. Unfortunately, the buildings do not lend themselves to that. They are largely old workhouses and we all know the type of official mentality prevalent when workhouses were built. Since that time a great many old mansions have come on the market. One of these in Mallow has been adapted for the purpose of a county home with admirable results. Deputy Tadhg Murphy very often tells us about it and the happy lot of those cared for in it by the Sisters of Nazareth. Very often, instead of wasting money on buildings, that cannot be improved or made adaptable to this special use, it might be possible for the Minister to advice local authorities to buy some of these old mansions and adapt them, as could easily be done, for the purpose. One recommendation is that these old mansions usually have good grounds around them, and it would give a great interest in life to old men and women if they could do a little gardening and things like that. I therefore, throw out the suggestion for the Minister's beneficent consideration.

Then there is the matter that Deputy Dr. Rowlette and Deputy Daly referred to, namely, provision for the care and education of mentally defective children. I recommend that to the Minister's attention. I do not presume to add anything to what Deputy Dr. Rowlette said, with the weight of his specialist knowledge of the subject, but germane to it there is the question of mental disease. I congratulate the Minister on arranging to have special attention paid to that problem, the importance of which has been brought home to me in conversation with priests, who sometimes come in contact with incipient cases of mental disease which may yield to pathological treatment. In some of the general hospitals, especially in Galway, perhaps, one or two of the wards might be appropriated for the treatment of such patients. Very often the mental disturbance is caused by pathological conditions, and if these were remedied, a great deal of the overcrowding of mental homes and a great deal of the expense which has been brought home to us by the large amount needed for the extension of Grangegorman and other hospitals might be obviated.

Speaking of hospitals, I think it was Deputy Goulding who spoke of the necessity of providing hospitals in the more remote regions. I would join with him in the plea he made, and I have in view the needs of the Aran Islands. The Minister knows intimately from personal contact with them the difficult condition under which the people there live. If an urgent case has to be brought to hospital in Galway it is necessary sometimes (if it is not a "steamer day," which is only twice a week) to bring the patient, in the motor-boat over a stormy sea, to the nearest point on the coast which is 14 or 15 miles away. By the time the hospital is reached sometimes the condition of the sick person is very grave. It might be possible under the Minister's scheme for hospitals to take into consideration the possibility of providing a small cottage hospital for Aran. I do not think I ought to sit down without saying something about a matter which I feel all of us have very much at heart. In the olden days under the system of military defence it was said "better a castle of bones than a castle of stones." I should like to bring that old adage up-to-date and apply it to the human element in the hospitals—the nurses, I feel that when the Minister makes provision for the improvement and "rationalisation" of hospital service in this country, one of the things to which he should give great consideration is the needs of the nurses—in the present and for the future. Their work is very strenuous. They have to put so much of themselves into it, spend so largely of their physical reserves, that their working life cannot be very long. Unfortunately their pay is not large enough to enable them to make proper provision for their old age. For this reason, I commend to the Minister's benevolent consideration, when he is making plans for the hospitalisation of this country, the desirability of giving particular thought to the problem of the nurses.

Mr. Keyes

The discussion that has taken place on this Estimate has been, in my opinion, of a most helpful and constructive character. There are very few of the activities of the Department that have not been commented upon and I venture to say that many fresh matters have been brought to the Minister's attention and to the attention of his Department, arising out of the various problems with which they will have to grapple throughout the year. I must say that the debate has been conducted in a perfectly non-rancorous and non-partisan manner, and I believe that the Department will have to admit that, generally speaking, the contributions of Deputies have been of a definitely helpful character. I introduce my remarks in this way more or less as an offset to the a attack made by Deputy Donnelly, when he described this discussion as a complete waste of time. I know of no Estimate that requires to be so thoroughly discussed at the Estimate for the Department of Local Government and Public Health. Considerable attention has been devoted to it in past years and this year is no exception. I believe that the Minister will agree that this debate has been undoubtedly of a helpful character.

A good deal of compliments have been paid to the Minister and to his Department, and quite deservedly, too. Perhaps there has been some criticism offered, but that is all to the good. Of course, the Minister will have an opportunity of replying to the debate. When Deputy Donnelly intervened he rather took it on himself to reply on the Minister's behalf. He attacked the Labour Party for having the temerity to participate in the debate and he made particular reference to Deputy Everett's contribution. I am not now going to comment on the serious charges made by Deputy Everett in the course of his speech. I daresay the Minister has paid particular attention to them and will reply to them in due course. No such delicacy marked Deputy Donnelly's intervention. He dismissed Deputy Everett's charges as pure trivialities. The Deputy treated us to a particularly irrelevant speech, delivered with all his nimble wit, and he succeeded in occupying quite a considerable time without saying one word about the Estimate. At any rate, he satisfied the House that his was the only wasteful contribution to the debate.

The Deputies who have preceded me have discussed so many aspects of local government that there is very little left for me to say. On the question of the hospitals a good deal has been said about the treatment of mentally deficient children. This subject was emphasised by Deputy Mrs. Concannon, Deputy Rowlette and others. I am in hearty agreement with what they have indicated. As regards the treatment of normally healthy children who may contract disease, outside of the City of Dublin, there is a great lack of suitable provision, particularly in relation to their segregation. I think it is undesirable that children in those circumstances should be herded in wards with adults suffering from ordinary complaints. These conditions may be observed in hospitals throughout the country. No matter how competent may be the hospital's staff or the equipment, I think it is very desirable that there should be special provision for such children and there ought to be children's wards in which they can be treated. Those do not exist at the moment in the country. People who reside in Dublin are not in a position to visualise what I speak of, because in this city there is adequate provision for such children. When hospitalisation is being planned in accordance with the Hospitals' Committee Report, I think special attention should be devoted to provide in provincial centres for the segregation of children so that they may be specially treated in children's wards.

References have been made to housing and slum clearance, and the subject of the rents of slum cleared tenants has been ably covered by several Deputies. I would like to join with Deputy Corish in drawing attention to that problem. Several suggestions have been put forward and there is no doubt that considerable difficulty exists in dealing satisfactorily with this matter. First of all, we have to clear the slums, irrespective of the means of the tenants. Secondly, we have to put some definite figure for the rent of the finished house and we have to make a point of constructing decent houses. When some of these people are changed to the better houses they have no means and they are obviously unable to pay the rent which the local authority finds it necessary to change, notwithstanding the extra grants offered by the Government. In my opinion, some sort of recasting of the charges for these houses will have to be considered. Even the special provision of employment for these people, as suggested by Deputy Morrissey, would scarcely meet the point. I think there should be some sort of recasting of the charges as between those who can pay and those who cannot. I recognise the difficulty of the problem and I am aware it is receiving the earnest attention of the Department. But it must be remembered that this is a growing problem, and in the course of time it will necessarily become intensified. If it is not met in some way now it may later prove a deterrent to the very desirable slum clearance schemes which are taking place.

A good deal of comment has been made about the extension of sewerage schemes, particularly in country towns. That is a most desirable form of activity, a most commendable enterprise. I am glad to say that in the county which I represent a good deal of progress has been made in that direction with the co-operation of the Department. I have to complain, however, that when these sewerage schemes have been executed, through the efforts of the local authorities combined with Government grants, they are not being availed of to anything like the extent that they should be. It is a poor tribute to our progressiveness to say that when these services are made available that citizens are not taking full advantage of them. I know places in County Limerick where those schemes have been introduced and carried out at considerable cost and the amount of connections made to them is absolutely negligible. I do not know if local authorities possess powers to compel people to take advantage of those schemes when they are installed. I do not like introducing compulsion in any shape or form, but in places where a virile agitation has been started and where Deputies and Senators have been approached to obtain grants for sewerage schemes, I would have no objection to the introduction of drastic compulsory powers to compel the people of the district to utilise the sewerage scheme when it has been provided for them. If they do not do so there is very little encouragement offered to the Department or to public authorities to continue constructing such schemes.

I do not agree with a lot of the criticism about houses being constructed in any way the builders like. That is not my experience. I think the inspectors, particularly since their number was increased, have been pretty active and vigilant. My only complaint in regard to them was that I could not get them to inspect houses quickly enough in order to enable grants to be paid. That, however, has now ceased and I think they are pretty active in seeing that the specifications are being adhered to. There is one notable exception. I do not think they are sufficiently watchful in seeing that foreign joinery work is not going into the new houses. We are aware from statistics that there is a very considerable importation of foreign doors are joinery. I have searched in vain to find out where the foreign doors are being used. There are very few people engaged in building who are not thoroughly acquainted with the regulations and they utilise various means of securing the grant. They are not supposed to put in foreign doors but I am very suspicious, to say the least of it, that they are evading the inspectors and that the foreign doors are still being put into houses that are being subsidised by public money. If that is to be definitely prevented it would be better to authorise the branding of our own home-made doors rather than to brand the foreign doors. There should be no difficulty in having an indelible or a burned brand on the top of door-heads put on Irish-manufactured doors which would be readily visible to the inspectors without being objectionable. Some such device ought to be adopted and that might prevent the arrival of cargoes of foreign doors every month in my own port, and I expect the same applies elsewhere. The point is that these foreign doors are being used in the construction of houses and their use is denied in the case of houses where grants are being given. I commend that to the Department, and I suggest that they should try and devise some means of stopping the abuse of people taking advantage of the money they get, and then escaping responsibility of getting doors in this country.

There is a matter which has been dealt with already but which I think calls for further comment and that is the question of the provision of allotments for unemployed people. I think it is most desirable that these people should have an opportunity of getting out into the country, getting away from the slums, and getting into healthy environments and, also, have the opportunity of producing some food. I do not say that they will produce a lot, but, at any rate, they have prospects of producing some. I think the Minister should see that this project is availed of and that it is carried out to its very fullest extent. In co-operation with the local bodies he should push forward the scheme and if there is any lack of activity on the part of local authorities he should press for more activity. If the thing is not followed up by the unemployed themselves and if they do not show a keenness to take part in it, that, of course, is a horse of a different colour. But, as far as I know, they have been very eager to participate in this scheme and have shown great activity in connection with the matter. If any circumstances tends to stop this movement or to mar its advance the Department concerned should set itself out to remove all such causes.

I suggest that circumstances have arisen recently to mar this scheme. The Department of Industry and Commerce has seen fit quite recently to bring those people engaged in the allotment scheme before the employment exchange officers to ascertain the value of what they produce on their allotments, so that it might be deducted from the assistance they would be entitled to get. I think that is the meanest effort at economy I have ever heard of. The local authorities provide tools and equipment free in order to give those people an opportunity of going out into the open air and doing work in healthy surroundings. And now the Department of Industry and Commerce has set itself to take most of the good out of that scheme. Protest meetings were held in my own area and I expect if this system is persisted in by the Department of Industry and Commerce the Limerick Corporation and other similar bodies will find the allotments left on their hands. I want to be careful not to embroil the Department of the Minister for Local Government with any other Department, or to do anything that will in any way mar this scheme. But I appeal to the Minister for Local Government to take what steps he can with the Department of Industry and Commerce, in order not to spoil so useful a scheme as this which has been promulgated by the Department of Local Government and Public Health. I do not think there is anything else I have to say, but I would like very much to pay my tribute to the officials of the Department of Local Government for the manner in which they have always acted. They have carried on the tradition of courtesy which has marked the administration of the Department for many years, and I was very glad to hear tribute paid to that in the speeches of Deputies from all sides of the House.

General Mulcahy

In June, 1928, a Gaeltacht Order was issued drawing attention to the Irish language, and ordering that any official appointed to the Gaeltacht or any local authority in the Gaeltacht would continue in his official position for no longer than three years if, at the time of his appointment, or at the end of the three years, he did not satisfy the requirements of the Minister that he was able to discharge the duties of his office through the medium of Irish. That Order was issued in June, 1928. In the beginning of 1929 consideration was given in the Department to the Irish language and to the general work of administering local bodies through Irish, so far as that included correspondence with the Department of Local Government. In the discussion of the Gaeltacht Order it was considered that a beginning should be made in the conduct of official business between local bodies and the Department of Local Government through the medium of Irish. The Department was pretty well equipped at the time for that work. There were 24 officials of the Department who were fluent Irish speakers, there were 22 who could read and write Irish well, and a good number who had a good speaking knowledge, including two heads of sections, three higher administrative officers, several other senior officers and a number of inspectors. Normally the matter would be taken up with the County Council and the County Board of Health in Donegal, in Mayo, in Galway and in Kerry, and some attention would be paid to the West Cork area. But it was decided to begin with the County Council of Donegal and with the County Council in Galway. It was suggested to the Board of Health and to the County Council in Donegal that they should consider the matter and that the Minister at the time was anxious that from the 1st January, 1935, steps should be taken to conduct correspondence between those bodies and the Department in Irish. They were asked to review what steps had been taken in the matter and to furnish lists showing the extent to which their staffs were competent to transact business through the medium of Irish. Donegal provided lists and considered the matter and both the county council and the board of health agreed that they would conduct their correspondence with the Department of Local Government in Irish from the 1st January, 1935. The matter was discussed by the Galway County Council. The idea generally in Galway was that the county council considered that the Minister and his Department were very much behindhand in this matter. The Galway County Council decided, in 1928, to conduct their business in Irish and were of the opinion that the Minister was setting back the hands of the clock. The Galway County Council had made up their minds nine years previously. But, as 1932 was the fifteenth centenary of the coming of St. Patrick, they had decided that they would transact from thenceforward their business in Irish no matter what the Minister and his officials would do.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

And make all their officials do their work in Irish too.

General Mulcahy

At any rate, they came to that decision. So far, the Minister for Defence and the Minister for Education introduced their Estimates this year in Irish. The Minister for Education has always presented his Estimates in Irish since he came into office, but it was a new departure on the part of the Minister for Defence to present his Estimates in Irish. The Minister for Local Government has asked us to be more realistic in this matter of the Irish language. I ask the Minister for Local Government whether there has been an effort made by local authorities in Irish-speaking districts to make use of the Irish language in the ordinary way. We are drawn by many things that we see around us to begin to apply that test as to whether the language is going to be made the language of this country or not. I approach this matter in the way that Deputy Keyes said some other matters were approached. It has been discussed before but I think it is a matter that requires a statement from the Minister. The Minister, although he did speak in Irish did not direct attention in any way to the position of the language in regard to local bodies or to the effect of the Gaeltacht Order as such. It does seems to me, at the present time, that the idea that is held by the whole of us is being used to injure the public service in many districts where Irish is the natural language of the people and that, on the other hand, nothing is being done to give the Irish language a better position in administration in those places where the people are still speaking Irish. When we look back on what has happened in Galway, we find that nothing has been done to improve the position. I take it that the Minister has not reached the point at which correspondence is conducted in any kind of routine way in Irish between his Department and any of the local bodies of which I speak. It seems to me that the person who proposed that the 1st January, 1935, should be made the 1st January, 1932, in honour of St. Patrick, was acting somewhat the part of "The Playboy of the Western World." The position gets more serious every day and, unless the Irish language is given its reasonable position in the public life of the West of Ireland, then we are going to achieve nothing.

I do feel that there is a danger that the use of the Irish language in dealing with Estimates by the Minister for Defence, the Minister for Education and the Minister for Local Government may be used, by even them, to cover their weaknesses in dealing with the situation, because it does require a certain amount of courage and a certain amount of realism to face the difficulties of the situation. Realists are at a discount in politics. Anybody inside a Minister who took a clear and realistic line in order to put Irish in its proper place would, I think, make himself a nuisance to the political Party to which he was attached. I do not want to regard the Irish speech of the Minister for Local Government on the Estimate for the Local Government Department as a piece of pure smoke-screening and cod but, to some extent, I am forced to do so in respect of the Minister for Education because, while the Minister for Education has delivered fine speeches on the subject of education since he came into office— all through the medium of Irish—those of us who are rearing Irish speaking families know that the speeches of the Minister for Education are nothing but a substitute crop—a substitute for crops that should be raised in other ways. There is no use in talking to the Minister for Education about the Irish language and that is the reason I address myself to the Minister for Local Government.

I am closely associated with a family all the children of which were brought up as Irish speakers. Irish was the language of the nursery. Irish was the language between one of the parents and the children. That convention was assisted in the house by obtaining Irish speaking girls from different parts of the country. That family always sent the children to Irish speaking schools. They had to take the boys away from the principal Irish speaking boys' school in the city—within a stonethrow of the Minister's own desk—because the Minister would not listen to a statement of what the position was inside that school and would not examine the matter. So far as secondary education is concerned, there are Irish speaking schools in the City of Dublin where the language of recreation is definitely English—systematically and completely English.

Mr. Anthony

Hear, hear!

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister for Local Government has no responsibility for education.

General Mulcahy

I was examining the responsibility of the Minister for Local Government——

An Ceann Comhairle

In respect of education.

General Mulcahy

No—in respect of the position of the Irish language amongst the officials in Irish speaking districts and his responsibility, in a fatherly way, for seeing that his own Department conducts its correspondence through the medium of Irish with local authorities in Irish speaking districts that are not making the progress that they pretend they are doing. I am trying to get the Minister to realise how great are his responsibilities and how realistically he must regard them, particularly in the City of Dublin where it is possible to do more for Irish in education than in any other part of the country. Those people who are endeavouring to raise Irish-speaking families are being let down and are having their work for the Irish language prejudiced by the futile position of schools that are supposed to represent the high water mark of constructive work for the Irish language. It is due to the Nation and the House that the Minister should deal with this question of the Gaeltacht Order and the extent to which a knowledge of Irish is held by officials appointed, since 1929, to Irish speaking districts —the extent to which they have acquired Irish, the extent to which they are using Irish and the extent to which the Department has made up its mind to use Irish in corresponding with bodies in Irish speaking districts, if those bodies are simply tinkering with the matter as, apparently, they are.

Mr. Bartley

I did not intend to intervene in this debate at all but I was rather amazed at the speech of Deputy Mulcahy. He referred to the attempt by Galway County Council to change the language of the administradition from English to Irish. At the time that that attempt was made, I myself was a member of the Galway County Council and I am fairly well acquainted with the body to which the Deputy has referred. The Deputy said that instead of adopting his suggestion—he was in charge of the Department of Local Government at the time—that Irish be the official medium from 1935, Galway County Council recommended that the year be 1932. The reason for that was that an election was expected in 1931 and that the parties, or persons, thinking of contesting the election would bear the resolution of the Council in mind and, as far as possible, get a type of candidate who would put that resolution into effect. I think that Deputy Mulcahy is fond of a joke as regards this matter. I find it hard to believe that he is serious. I need only refresh his mind regarding the appointment of a roads inspector for Connemara. I am not quite sure whether or not the Gaeltacht Order was then in force but that is beside the point.

An Ceann Comhairle

In what year was that appointment made?

Mr. Bartley

I cannot be quite definite.

General Mulcahy

The Gaeltacht Order came into operation only in June, 1928.

Mr. Bartley

It is in the spirit motivating Deputy Mulcahy's words I am interested. After all, the question of the existence of the Gaeltacht Order is neither here nor there where the question of advancing the language is concerned. A good deal of credit is due to Deputy Mulcahy for the introduction of the Gaeltacht Order. It was a very commendable Order. I made a very strong protest at the time——

An Ceann Comhairle

The previous Administration is not under review.

Mr. Bartley

I did not intend to take any part in this debate, but I am commenting on the remarks of the last speaker. I want to refer to some points if the Chair will allow me.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair cannot allow a review of the previous Administration.

General Mulcahy

I would like to help the Deputy, as he was one of the County Council who decided that the 1st January, 1925, was too late, and that the Order should begin on the 31st January, 1932. I am not jocking when I say that I would like to have the Deputy's assistance in discussing the position of the Department of Local Government. He knows the position in regard to the Galway County Council and the officials and I would like to hear a discussion as to what the Minister could do to introduce the Irish language as the medium of communication between the Department of Local Government and Galway County Council and Galway Board of Health.

Mr. Bartley

I did not treat the Irish language as a joke. I agree with Deputy Mulcahy that everything possible should be done in that respect by all Parties. It would be most undesirable that the question of the advance of the language should be made a Party question or that any Party should claim it as its own particular monopoly. Everyone here is prepared to help forward the Irish language. I do not think any cold water was thrown on the Deputy's action. The Deputy seems to be making charges in connection with a particular appointment——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has gone back again.

Mr. Bartley

A native speaker was to be appointed.

An Ceann Comhairle

Under a previous Administration again.

Mr. Bennett

On the whole, this debate has been the most relevant that we have had for a long period, and I would like to join in the general congratulations to the Department on its administration. Since the institution of this State the Department of Local Government is the one Department that has appealed most strongly to the ordinary Deputy. I must say that its record has been one that has called for less criticism than any of the other Departments. I am glad to pay a tribute to the present Minister, that he has kept up that record in carrying on the very onerous work of a difficult Department very capably, and I might add very impartially. Every Deputy can bear testimony to the courtesy with which they have been met by the Minister and by the officials of this Department in relation to the work that comes under its control. I believe it approaches that work in a perfectly impartial manner and that, as far as possible, the Minister and his officials endeavour to induce subsidiary bodies and local councils to carry on their business impartially. Local bodies, naturally, from time to time attempt to make a little political capital out of questions that come before them, but I am glad to say, as far as the Department of Local Government is concerned, and as far as their control operates, that the present Minister and his officials have endeavoured to check whatever tendency there might be in that direction. Whatever criticism there has been in the course of this debate was more intended to be helpful than otherwise, and I hope that whatever I say will be regarded in the same light. The operations of the Minister have perhaps been hampered in collecting rates during a very depressed time owing to the difficulty of getting in money speedily. If there was a tendency on the Minister's part that at times seemed to appear somewhat harsh, in getting local bodies to collect money from the people, one can sympathise with that, as the desire was to run the Department as near to perfection as possible. Whatever little criticism I may direct to the Department would be on those lines. There has been a tendency to induce officials to be unduly severe about the collection of the current rates, and perhaps arrears of rates. Everyone must be aware of the difficulty of getting people in many counties to meet their liabilities in that respect. Everyone is aware that if pressure like that was brought to bear on some people to meet current liabilities they may be unable to meet their liabilities at the end of the year or at the beginning of the next year.

Analogies have been drawn between respective counties. I represent a county where the difficulty of collecting rates is greater than in other counties. The question has often been asked: "Why should Limerick or Tipperary be more backward in the collection of rates than counties in the west of Ireland?" The analogy is not fair. In many counties, and in the west of Ireland particularly, the valuations are excessively low, and the amount of rates to be paid would not amount to a great deal in the case of the ordinary ratepayer. In a great many instances these people would be eligible for grants from the Department. On the other hand, in counties like Limerick and Tipperary the valuations are altogether on a larger scale. Even with the anticipation of money from the Agricultural Grant, which is subject to reduction, ratepayers in Limerick and Tipperary do not benefit at all to the same extent as counties like Mayo or Galway. In that respect the people in Limerick and Tipperary have greater difficulties in meeting commitments than ratepayers in other counties. As I am on that question, I should like to know if it would be possible for the Minister, in the distribution of the Agricultural Grant, to make it more equitable in counties like Limerick and Tipperary. I perceive the difficulty the Minister would have in the general working of his Department, and in the distribution of the Agricultural Grant, but the present arrangement is inequitable.

In this House before, I referred to the fact that many farmers who are large employers in Limerick and Tiperary, gain very little relief, as far as the labour part of the grant is concerned. They are under other disabilities in that, in the return of the number of their workers to the County Council and other places, they may be put down as the employers of very little labour, and possibly they may appear as such in the Census afterwards, when in fact they do employ a great amount of labour with which they are not credited, and for which they do not get any relief whatever. I refer again particularly to the case of women workers. There are a great number of women workers in my county and in Tipperary engaged in dairying work particularly. I may say that they get the same wages as men and in many cases more than men. A farmer may employ two male employees or one male employee and that same farmer may have two women employees. There are perhaps many cases in which a farmer employs only one male employee and three women employees. That farmer gets relief in respect of the one male employee but no relief in respect of his other employees. He is counted by the County Council as employing one hand when in fact he is employing four. I suggest that to distribute the grant on that basis is not equitable. I did previously make an appeal to the Minister to look into the matter and to see if it were possible to have it adjusted. It would have a great influence in the collection of rates, because people who do not participate in the benefits of the agricultural grant to the extent to which people in other areas do, would, if this adjustment were made, have their rates reduced to such an extent that the collection of the rates would be made easier.

I would appeal to the Minister on this general question of the collection of rates, having regard to his anxiety to get the work of his Department generally carried out and to get money for the carrying out of this work, that he should not, perhaps, kill the goose that has laid the golden egg. I would ask him to remember that while by extreme measures he may force some farmers to pay the current rate, he may put them in a position in which perhaps they will be unable to pay the next rate. There are many farmers in my county who, by reason of the drive to collect rates, had to sell cattle to pay these rates. There are many more who had to go into the creameries and mortgage the coming summer's milk supply in order to get money to pay the rates. The consequence of that is that during the summer they will be short of cash, that they will be unable to carry out their ordinary operations properly, and they will be in a more unfavourable position to meet their commitments when the demand for next year's rates is made than they are now instead of being in a more improved position. I feel bound to say that.

In regard to housing, I think every Party and every Independent Deputy in this House has taken that question to heart. Nobody will deny the Minister whatever possible assistance he can give in carrying out his housing programme or in improving on it. Deputy Dillon spoke at length yesterday on the slum question in Dublin. I might say that the slum question in Cork and Limerick, if not as acute as in Dublin, is certainly very acute. While much has been done to remedy the matter in recent years, there is generally a desire for greater progress as far as it can be effected. I should like to say a few words regarding rural housing particularly. There has been lately on the part of various county councils much activity in that direction. Thousands of houses have been built, and more are in the course of erection while many plots have been taken to build cottages. The whole scheme lends itself as far as local councils are concerned to a little criticism which the Minister may help to remedy. There has been a general tendency amongst some people in different counties in recent years to try to drive a wedge between the farmer and the labourer. It has been said that the farmers are loth to give plots of land on which labourer's cottages can be built. There may have been some little truth in such assertion at times—some farmers may object to giving plots—but I should like to say definitely that I do not believe there is a single farmer who would object to giving the small portion of the land necessary to erect a labourer's cottage—at least I hope there is not—if it were not for the difficulties the erection of that cottage created afterwards.

Deputy Holohan referred to the question of fences, and that is a matter to which I should like to refer also. That has been, and still is, a great bone of contention amongst farmers. No farmer, as I say, would object to the erection of a cottage on his land except for what happens afterwards. It may happen that the upkeep of the fences falls on the farmer. I do not know whether he is liable or not, but in many cases the farmer attends to the fences, because he does not want to see a cottager's crop of potatoes or cabbage destroyed by cattle breaking in on it. That has been a continual source of disturbance between the occupant of the cottage and the farmer. Narrow bank fences made of sods are still being erected. I had hoped that we were approaching the day when bank fences would be obsolete. It is not a form of fence that one should recommend anywhere, and it is not a form that the Department should encourage. In fact, it is something that the Department should make every effort to discourage. The Department should if necessary make it compulsory on councils to erect some other form of fence. A bank fence, unless it is very wide, is a very bad fence. There are of course some old bank fences, eight or nine, or in some cases ten, feet wide, and they have existed for many years, because of their stout build. Some of them are as wide as from here to the Minister. These obviously were such mountainous fences that they were able to withstand the elements and the years, but the bank fences that are being built at the present time are a different proposition altogether.

There are various difficulties in the erection of these fences. One mentioned by Deputy Holohan was in regard to the tenant himself, that the fence takes a good portion of the land alloted to him. There is a ditch dug to provide the material for the bank and that ditch is useless as tillage ground afterwards. The fence itself, unless extreme care is taken in its maintenance, will collapse in a very short time. Yet in County Limerick there are hundreds, if not thousands, of such fences, already erected on plots on which the cottages have not yet been built. I do not know if it is proposed to build cottages on these plots immediately or not. I have been informed recently that it will not be possible to erect them for some time, but the fences are already there, and they are already crumbling and falling down. When the cottages come to be built a lot of these fences will not be there at all. A bank fence, except it is faced with stone, is not a good fence, and if a lot of stone is used then the making of it becomes almost as costly as the building of a wall. I think the Minister should inquire into this, and see if it would not be possible to provide that in all the counties fences, other than bank fences, would be put up. Deputy Holohan suggested a cement wall. It would have the effect of being more durable than a bank fence, and would preserve to the tenants of the plots a greater amount of land.

I support the suggestion made by Deputy Holohan that on tar surfaced roads a margin should be provided for horse traffic and for the driving of cattle from one farm to another. Something in that direction has already been done in the case of many new roads by leaving a space at the side for animal traffic, but owing to the fact that these spaces are not properly maintained they become full of ruts, making it extremely difficult for animals to travel over them. I do not suggest that a great deal of money should be spent on this work, but something should be done to maintain these spaces in good condition. I was glad to hear that the Minister desires to make further provision for the treatment of the mentally deficient, and I add my voice to what has been said with regard to mental hospitals and the segregation of those suffering from different forms of mental disease. It is the desire of all of us to see these poor people well cared for. Deputy Rowlette referred at length to the circular issued by the Minister's Department in connection with the compulsory retirement of dispensary medical officers and other public officials at the age of 65. I think the Minister would be well advised to withdraw that circular. His Department has come in for a good deal of criticism in connection with it all over the country. We all know men and women who have reached the age of 65 filling public positions who are quite as competent to carry on their duties as people almost half their age. I know myself doctors who have long passed the age of 75, men who have retired from the public service, who are competing successfully against brother practitioners, men much younger than themselves. The same applies in other walks of life. Provided a man or a woman has good health, we all know that he or she is quite as competent to carry on work in any walk of life as people much younger. Therefore, I think it would be a pity if the Minister were to insist on public officials being compulsorily retired at 65.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

At what age does the Deputy say they should retire?

Mr. Bennett

I will put it this way: that if a man or a woman is suffering from infirmity or ill-health they ought to be retired whether they have reached the age of 35 or 75.

Mr. Briscoe

Or 105.

Mr. Bennett

Yes, if they are capable of giving useful service to the people who employ them, and are able to discharge their public duties satisfactorily. I am afraid very few would be able to continue to do that up to the age suggested by Deputy Briscoe. There is a happy medium, I suggest, in everything, and while some for health reasons are unable to discharge their duties at a comparatively early age, we all know that there are very many indeed who are capable of actively pursuing their duties up to the age of 70.

Mr. Briscoe

Many of them are only getting married then.

Mr. Bennett

You will find many at that age in full possession of their physical and mental faculties and competing successfully with men and women of a much lower age. I hope that the Minister will take up, as soon as possible, his examination of the report of the Hospitals' Commission. That is a matter that Deputies in all parts of the House would like to see the Minister giving early attention to. I hope that when the Minister comes to give effect to the recommendations of the commission he will have regard to local opinion. I do not know whether the Minister is in agreement with all the recommendations of the commission, but I should like to tell him that as regards the City of Limerick hospitals there is general agreement that before anything is finally done in regard to them the views of those best able to give an opinion on the city's hospital needs should be taken into consideration. I desire to support what Deputy Mrs. Concannon said in regard to nurses. I hope, arising out of this report, that some provision will be made for nursing institutions. The nurses of this country have done great work for a long number of years for the sick and the destitute at a remuneration much smaller than that paid to people in any other walk of life. Many of them have made no provision for their old age. In fact, some of them when they leave the hospitals are physically incapacitated long before the age at which it was suggested that public officials become incapacitated. Owing to their onerous duties, at the age of 65 nurses are probably more in need of retirement than any other people in the community, and we ought to do something that will help those people to make provision for the time when they are no longer able to carry on their work. I can say this to the Minister, that in any action which is taken in that regard he will have the support of practically every Deputy in this House. I will wind up by congratulating the Minister as far as I am concerned—and I think this will be generally borne out in the House—on the courteous manner in which we have always been met in the Local Government Department itself. So far as I know, and as far as my county generally is concerned, the work of that Department has been carried on in a very excellent and very impartial manner.

Mr. Victory

I think the Minister can congratulate himself on the tone of the debate on this Estimate on all sides of the House. To my mind, it has developed into a happy family debate, each one vying with the others as to how best to improve the social conditions in the country at the moment. I am one of those who support all that, but I have to keep an eye on it from the point of view of John Taxpayer. It was suggested by my colleague, Deputy Mrs. Concannon, here this morning that the Hospitals Commission should consider including in their scheme the acquisition and adaptation of old mansions as county homes. So far as I can see, our county homes are really hospitals for the aged and disabled, and I think that suggestion is worthy of very careful consideration. I was glad to hear, in reply to a question in this House, that the overdrafts of our public bodies had been reduced by almost one half, but it does not follow from that that it would be wise to put an additional strain on those bodies at the moment. Local bodies have many difficulties. They are anxious about those social services that were mentioned, but they are equally anxious about the ratepayers. I should like if the Minister would consider the matter which was mentioned by Deputy Moore yesterday about redeeming old loans floated at a high rate of interest, and issuing a new loan. That would help to ease matters if it could be done. I do not know whether it could or not, but I am asking the Minister to give consideration to the matter.

I agree with Deputy Holohan and Deputy Bennett that it is very hard to use the main roads for horse traffic, particularly in some districts. We all know that it was absolutely necessary to make the roads as they have been made, and to keep them at that standard but, at the same time, an effort should be made to leave a margin along the sides of those roads which could be used for horse traffic. In view of the new policy of the Government, which has been taken up very much all over the country, the roads will have to be used more in that connection in the near future. That is a consideration which should be kept in view. There were some things mentioned, even by some of my own colleagues on this side of the House, with which I cannot agree. After listening to the tone of the debate, I think we are all making suggestions from our own point of view rather than from any Party point of view. No doubt, there is much talk down the country about the new circular sent out by the Minister with regard to retiring certain officials at 65 years. As I understand it—I do not know whether I am correct or not—I think it leaves the matter in the hands of the local authorities; if they are of opinion that an official has become unfit for the position he occupies they can remove him from office. There are cases where certain officials, through some ailment or other, are not discharging their duties in as satisfactory a manner as we would wish. If that is the meaning of the circular, and if it is intended to leave it in the hands of the local authorities to enforce it, I welcome it as being necessary for the public good.

I do not agree with what Deputy Dr. O'Dowd said yesterday in regard to a dispensary doctor who might come in at middle age—that he should have so many years added to his service in order to give him a pension on which he could retire in comfort. In the same breath Deputy Dr. O'Dowd told us that the incoming man would require twice the salary because the man who is retiring would hold his local practice. Dr. O'Dowd was speaking on behalf of the medical profession, but I am looking at the matter from the point of view of the taxpayer. The medical profession is well able to look after itself. In every Bill which was passed here, in regard to insurance and so on, they took good care to look after their own interests. There are more increments for the medical man than appear on the surface.

I have not very much to add, because anything I might say has already been said from all sides of the House. I will conclude by saying that, while I am anxious to advance social services, I regret to say that some of the things which were raised in this House for Party purposes would be better left undone for the sake of the common good. I appeal to the Minister to consider those social services, but to consider them from the point of view of the taxpayer. If those loans could be redeemed, and the other matters in connection with workhouses and so on attended to, I think we would be doing a good day's work for this country, and the Minister could feel proud of the housing, sewerage, water schemes, and other matters in connection with the health of the community.

Mr. Curran

Unlike some of the other Deputies who contributed to the debate I am afraid I cannot throw any bouquets at the Minister in connection with this Estimate, or with the Local Government Department generally. I view the matter from the standpoint of the people who have to pay. The last Deputy who sat down said that those things should be considered from the point of view of the taxpayer. Of course they should. If social services have to be increased, and we would all like to see them increased and improved, I say definitely that that ought not to be done out of the local rates, and out of the pockets of those who are unable to meet the demands made on them. I remember reading a statement of the Minister for Local Government in which he said that the rates were too low for the services which the people had got. Take the case of the ordinary small farmer with 15 or 20 acres, or even the farmer with a bigger acreage and a bigger valuation. What value does he get? I make bold to say that the one section of the community who are not catered for in connection with social services are the middle classes in this country. The poor can get free hospital treatment; the rich can afford to pay for it. What becomes of the middle class person who cannot afford to pay, but whose status, so to speak, debars him from getting free the treatment which he requires? Is it not well known that the ordinary small farmer is not catered for at all in connection with social services?

I want to put to the Minister a point in regard to what is known as the credit note system in connection with the payment of rates. Complaints have been made to me that if the rates are not paid on 31st March, the ratepayer will not get the concession to which he is entitled in connection with the credit note.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

The Minister does not control that now.

Mr. Curran

I remember, during a debate of this kind, some other Minister moving this on behalf of the Minister for Local Government, and he said that if the rates were paid in a reasonable time they would get the advantage of the credit note. It does mean something to the small farmer— I think £1 or something like that— and so far as I know from complaints I have had about it, if they are not paid by 31st March, they do not get credit for it. I say that is very regrettable. I understood that the position was being rectified and that if the rates were paid within any reasonable time —six months or eight months—the ratepayer would get credit for it. I should like the Minister to make a pronouncement on the subject because it is a matter which is agitating the minds of a good many people. They might not be in a position to pay on the day on which they would get the advantage of the credit note.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

That is in the hands of the County Council now.

Mr. Curran

And I suppose in the hands of the Commissioner in my county?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Yes.

Mr. Curran

I hope the Minister will make representations to the Commissioner.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

The Deputy can do it.

Mr. Curran

If that is the position, I should be very pleased to make representations to him. A good deal has been said about housing and labourers' cottages. I do not want to stress that matter, except to refer to the subject of fences, mentioned by Deputy Bennett. I have given a plot, without compulsion or anything else, but the one condition that I lay down from the day I give that plot is that I will not be satisfied with a clay fence. The clay fence has not been built yet, and certainly a clay fence will not be built on my land because it does not keep. I have seen some fences almost built and what they consist of are sods on the farmers' side. In some cases, farmers have given permission for the erection of wire fences outside them, but there are not many farmers who could give such permission for an extra wire fence. It is well known that these fences will not last for any length of time, even if all the precautions with regard to putting in quick near the ground are taken. I have been led to believe that concrete would be only 1/- a perch dearer or something very small, and it is regrettable that when the scheme was being examined, greater consideration was not given to this matter. The one thing the farmer objects to, after the house is built, is trespassing. I suppose it is too late to talk about it now because the scheme has gone through, but I personally have safeguarded myself.

Reference has been made to the Minister's circular with regard to the retiring of officials at 65, and I noticed that Deputy Briscoe interjected a remark. My view is that of the old adage "A man is as young as he feels," and there might be many officials at 65 quite as capable as, and probably more capable, of carrying out their duties than those ten and maybe 15 years younger. Regard should be had to every individual case, and if a man is capable of carrying on his job I do not see why he should be compelled to retire at 65. I thank the Minister for informing me that I can take up the question of credit notes with the Commissioner.

Mr. Briscoe

I rise to bring one matter to the attention of the Minister. I do not know whether he will be able to meet the views I propose to put forward. The matter arises out of the excellent housing programme of the Minister's Department and in connection particularly with those houses which are being built and acquired under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. The persons who acquire those houses borrow the money from the local authority, and the local authority then is in the position of being the lender and the joint owner, and, as circumstances arise, can choose to defend itself when complaints are made by side-stepping the issue and saying "We are the lender and we have no responsibility" or "We are the owner", as the case may be. Certain conditions are laid down with regard to specifications, size and so on, and loans are subject to confirmation by the Minister's Department, but nobody seems to take any responsibility with regard to the interior of the house, in respect of certain defects which are beginning to show themselves to an alarming extent in certain schemes.

The builder or the society building the house has to satisfy the local authority, or the Minister's Department, that the house is structurally sound, and must make good any structural defects which show themselves within a period of 12 months from the taking over of the house, but when cracks appear in the walls, leaks in the roof and when mantel-boards fall out, the purchaser, who has probably bought the house on the instalment plan, putting down a deposit, is told that these are not structural defects and that the responsibility is consequently his own. I would appeal to the Minister to provide that defects of this nature, which result from flimsy finishing-off, should be made good and should not be made the responsibility of the person buying the house. If the Minister would do that, he would assist a great many people who are rather dissatisfied with what they consider to be bad bargains, they having believed that the Local Government Department laid down rules protecting them against these defects as well as actual structural defects, which are left to the local authority's architect who can say "This is a structural defect" or "This is not."

I also appeal to the Minister to give immediate consideration to the request made to his Department, both before his time and during his period of office, with regard to separate accommodation, if not separate places, for juveniles in asylums and certain classes of hospitals. I think the Minister will recollect that when he was an honoured member of the Dublin Corporation and also took an active interest in Grangegorman Mental Hospital, great difficulties arose from time to time in regard to certain juveniles admitted as insane to that asylum, who had to be kept under the control of the ordinary warders dealing with adults. I think I raised the same question in connection with the fever hospital to be built in Dublin and pointed out that for a long time the Dublin Corporation had been considerably worried about the position of juvenile cases of tuberculosis who have to be sent to Crooksling, which is not a beautiful place, as it is, and put in with adult inmates under the same treatment and control. Deputy Curran, I think, misunderstands certain matters. The question, as the Minister pointed out, of the credit on the rates is a matter purely for the Council itself or the local authority.

Now, with regard to the question of retiring certain officials at the age of 65, as far as I understand it, no such Order has been issued, and the sense of the Order, as it has been discussed, is to leave it absolutely within the control of the local authority concerned. If they have an official—say, a medical gentleman—who, at the age of 65, is not physically fit and whom it would be better for himself or the authority concerned to retire, the Order enables them to retire him without any hardship on himself or the community. If, however, he is physically able and capable of carrying on his work, as Deputy Bennett describes it, there is no objection to his being retained in the service until he is 75 or 85. In whatever way these Orders are being discussed, however, it would appear that some people took the view that the Minister has decided that all such officials must be retired at the age of 65. As I understand it, that is not the case at all.

Mr. Curran

I hope the Deputy is right.

Mr. Briscoe

I think I can assure the Deputy that I am right. However, I really rose for the purpose of asking the Minister to consider whether he can take some steps to protect the purchasers of new houses, under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act, from being saddled with a great deal of inconvenience and cost arising out of the examination of the houses by the local authority officials having to concern themselves purely with structural matters and specifications, and leaving the responsibility afterwards on these purchasers, who have no architects to guide them, of making good any defects and any finishing that has to be done in connection with these houses. I hope that the Minister will find some means of helping these people.

Mr. Nally

There are just a few matters I should like to refer to before the Minister concludes. First of all, I wish to congratulate him on the excellent work his Department is doing down through the country during the last few years in connection with housing, waterworks and sewerage. There is one matter on which I should like the Minister to throw some light. It is in connection with the Castlebar urban housing scheme. It appears that a year ago or so 80 houses were built down there and after they had been completed it was found out that 25 of them were defective. A sworn inquiry was instituted and an inspector was sent down. He carried out the inquiry, and it appears from the inquiry that certain interferences with the plans, and so on, of the urban council were made by the Minister's Department. It appears, I understand, that the urban council were prevented from selecting the site they wanted to select, and they selected another site.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Prevented by whom?

Mr. Dillon

The Minister would not answer questions I put to him when I was speaking.

Mr. Nally

According to the sworn inquiry, I understand that it was officials in the Minister's Department who prevented the council from selecting site No. 1. Site No. 2, I understand, was selected by the officials of the Minister's Department. The result was that 25 houses were built on site No. 2. I understand that they found out even before the houses were built that the site was unsuitable, and the houses had to be built on rafts. When they were built, they were practically turned over. I understand that it is going to cost about £6,000, and what I want to know is, who will pay it? Is it the people of Castlebar or the Department that will have to pay it? I should like to have an explanation from the Minister on that point.

Another matter to which I should like to refer is the question of the hospital in Claremorris. We were promised by the Minister that a hospital costing £9,000 was going to be erected there. As a result, the Mayo Board of Health, with the approval of the Department, I understand, purchased a site in Claremorris for about £300, and paid for it. After going to that expense, it appears that the Department have cancelled that order and stated that they do not intend to put any hospital in Claremorris. I should like to have an explanation from the Minister on that point also. I would also appeal to him to see if there is any possibility of speeding up the building of labourers' cottages in a place called Ballindine, near Claremorris. For the last two years, inspectors have been going down there and still nothing has been done yet with regard to the building of these cottages. There are only about half-a-dozen cottages required, but the people there think that the matter should have been attended to long ago.

There is another matter about which I should like to appeal to the Minister, and that is in connection with the steam-rolling grants for maritime counties. I refer to counties such as Mayo, Donegal, and so on, along the seaboard. As far as Mayo is concerned, we have paid our rents, annuities and rates promptly, and I think the Minister should give us an extra grant for steam-rolling roads along the sea coast, as it is the great attraction for tourists along the coasts of Mayo, Galway, Donegal, and so on. I think these counties should get far greater grants for steam-rolling than the inland counties. After all, the inland counties have been getting grants all along for the last ten years or so, whereas the counties along the seaboard have been more or less neglected. I hope the Minister will look into this matter and see what he can do in connection with the giving of additional grants for that purpose. I should also like to appeal to the Minister in connection with the pilgrimages to Knock. The Minister has treated us very generously and courteously in connection with that matter, but I hope he will do what he can in the coming year to do better than last year.

Mr. Fred Crowley

There are only one or two points I wish to touch upon. A number of Deputies yesterday shed crocodile tears over the suggestion that medical officers should be compelled to retire at 65. I am just wondering if those Deputies fully realise that the officials in the Department of Agriculture, the Department of the Irish Land Commission, the Department of Education, the Board of Works, and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, have got to retire at 65. I am also wondering if the medical profession really believe that they have got some dope that, when applied, makes themselves immune from old age; because everybody standing up here to-day particularly mentioned the medical profession. It so happens that, in my estimation, the doctors are just the people who should be asked to retire at 65—particularly in the rural districts. I mentioned doctors in the rural districts especially, because I am visualising a stretch of country, particularly along the seaboard and in the mountainy districts, where a doctor, getting a call probably at about 2 o'clock in the morning, would have to get out of his bed and travel a distance of ten to 15 miles, and possibly, after returning from that call, would get a second call. It takes a man of good physique, a man of energy, and a man who is certainly under 60 or 65 to be able to stand up to that strain, and the temptation is that the old man, whilst his heart is willing, will certainly not cover the journey; or, if he does cover the first journey that I have mentioned, he will certainly cover the second. There is the case—perhaps I should not have called it the temptation—that the physique of a man of over 65 will not be able to stand up to the strain. I am not suggesting for a moment that the old doctors were not carrying out their duties conscientiously, but I am suggesting that their physique will not allow them to do so in the same way that a young man would carry out the duty.

The idea has been put forward that it would be most unfair to ask them to retire at 65 without pensioning them; and, side by side with that suggestion, that the old doctors could carry on a practice when they retired which would cut into the practice of the young doctor coming in to replace him. He cannot have it both ways. If he is going to carry on a practice which is going to cut into the young man's practice, he is getting a sufficient salary to carry him on in his old age. I suggest that there has not been a good case made for the medical doctors. I am not down on them. My experience is that once a doctor reaches 65 in certain rural districts, especially the type of district I have mentioned, he is not able to carry on and is not able to attend to the poor properly, and it is high time that he should be asked to retire. I think he should be placed on the same basis as other officials and compulsorily retired.

There is only one other point I wish to touch upon, a point which I made about two years ago, in connection with the question of housing, and that is that an extra grant of £10 should be given in the case of a house built of stone as against a house built of concrete. I am satisfied that the stone house is a much better proposition than a concrete one, particularly one built of mass concrete. In order to encourage the use of stone as against concrete, I strongly advocate that £10 should be added to the grant in the case of a stone house.

Mr. O'Neill

Dealing with this matter of the retiring age of officials, I think the last speaker made a very good case for his contention that the order should be carried out and that a retiring age should be fixed. All the public boards have received this circular from the Minister, but I do not think it can be generally enforced, because there is nothing to enable the Minister to break a contract of employment between a board and a doctor, when on his appointment no reference was made to the age of retirement. It is different in the case of other officials. It is provided in the Courts of Justice Act that district justices in the country districts shall retire at 65. While I think 65 is a rather early age for retirement even for district justices or doctors, I agree with the Minister that there should be some definite age fixed at which an official appointed to any important position, such as a doctor, would have to retire. I am not suggesting any particular age, but I am sure the Minister had in mind when issuing the circular that in some districts certain doctors have continued in office practically in defiance of the Local Government Department and the local authorities when they are really physically unable to carry on their duties. That should not be allowed to happen, especially now when there are so many qualified young men waiting to get positions at home. Many graduates of the Cork University have to seek positions abroad while those old men, some of them very incapable from infirmity, are holding on to positions from which they should be made to retire. Perhaps 65 is too early an age at which to ask them to retire, but there should be some retiring age fixed and I leave that to the Minister. Before such appointments are made I think the Minister should see that an age limit is fixed, so that the persons seeking appointments and the authorities making them would know where they stand in the matter.

Deputy Nally raised the question of tourist and maritime roads. I know that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle is very interested in this question. He and I were actively interested in the development of the tourist traffic in this country through the Irish Tourist Association, and one of the things outlined was the laying down of an improved coast road around the Free State which would make the motor tourist traffic more attractive than it is at present. There was a scheme outlined—I think it was sent to the Local Government Department—for a sort of co-ordinated scheme through all the maritime counties. Some of the roads in West Cork I might say have been sadly neglected because we have been waiting for this big scheme to come along which would co-ordinate the work right through from Waterford to Cork, Kerry, Clare, etc. I think that is a very important matter. We have some very important coast roads such as that in County Waterford. We have magnificent roads in Wicklow and we have them in parts of Cork. We have some very fine tourist centres, such as the Healy Pass, which is a triumph of engineering skill and a great credit to those connected with it. As I say, we want a co-ordinated scheme which would link up all those roads. This would give a great deal of employment in some of the poorest districts in the country. That is a matter which should be taken up directly by the road board and not be left to the devices of the various local authorities, otherwise it will lack the continuity and uniformity necessary.

In connection with the social services, a lot of good work has been done by the child-welfare and school-meals schemes, and I think nobody will begrudge the money spent, especially in providing milk for necessitous children and meals for school children. These schemes have worked out very successfully and, on the whole, I think great economy has been exercised in their administration. I have been connected with the administration of a school-meals scheme under which a very good hot meal was provided for the children at a cost of 1d. per head per day. I think that scheme ought to be extended. There are some parts of the country where there is need for such a scheme, and I suggest to the Minister that where there is any demand for it it should be extended. There may be difficulties to be got over in some districts, but the Minister should do all he can to see that it is carried out. It has been very effective in promoting the health of the children.

There is one point I should like to mention in connection with the hospital side of the Minister's work and that is the need for the provision of proper hospital accommodation for children. Outside of Dublin there is no hospital devoted solely and entirely to the care of sick children. I think that is a great blot on our very efficient hospital administration. I was connected with the administration of a county hospital some years ago and we built a children's wing to that hospital. While very good work has been done there, it has not had the same effect which a hospital would have which was devoted entirely to the care of sick children in which the nurses and the doctors would pay special attention to their treatment. I have been looking over the report of the Hospitals Commission and I find very little reference in the report to that branch of the problem. I suggest to the Minister that that is a matter which might engage his special attention. I am sure that if the Minister consults his medical advisers they will see the necessity for the proper care and treatment of children in hospitals. If we had such children's hospitals we would not need so many or such large hospitals for adults, because we would be able to arrest the ravages of disease in the early stages. It would tend to a healthier class of citizens in the State. Reference has been made to the position of nurses and their pensions. The Minister has already had that matter under consideration, and I am sure that it will receive the attention that it requires.

The Minister mentioned that very little attention is being paid to his scheme for town planning. I think it has been rather a disappointment in most cases. I think that arises, not from want of desire on the part of local authorities to avail of the advantages of town planning, but rather through ignorance of their powers under the Act. I remember, when the Act went through, I suggested to the Minister that he should have a short memorandum prepared and sent to the local authorities. I believe the Minister did that, but still in spite of that there is no great enthusiasm amongst the local authorities in regard to town planning. Now that so much money is being spent on housing, I think it is quite necessary that town planning should get more attention than it is getting. Houses are being erected in some cases in an extraordinary fashion, and unless town planning is considered seriously and provision with regard to water supplies and sewerage made in accordance with the Act so as to aim at healthy surroundings, then a good deal of the advantages that have been achieved by building will more or less be nullified. They certainly will be seriously affected in the carrying out of local improvements by the want of a suitable scheme of town planning.

A peculiar position has arisen with regard to urban districts. In the South, particularly, where you have a large number of fairly small towns, small urbanised towns, the position has become very difficult. I feel I shall have to refer to the economic war in connection with this matter, because these towns have been seriously affected by reason of a decrease in their efficient valuation owing to the loss of fairs and markets. In some of the coastal towns the decay of fisheries and loss of shipping in the ports, largely due to the economic war, have had a serious effect. A large number of buildings have become idle and derelict, and there is a big falling off in trade owing to the lack of the circulation of money, due primarily to the falling off in fairs and markets. The urban districts are desirous of carrying out various improvements, but their desires are thwarted by the lack of money.

I think the Minister is aware, through his Department, that for some time past there has been an increase in the number of small urban bodies that have had to seek temporary help in the form of bank overdrafts. In many cases this is an unprecedented step. I have been connected with the administration of a small urban district, and last year was the first time in our history that we had to seek bank help to carry out the ordinary administration of the board. That was due to a difficulty in getting in the rates, not owing to any lack of assiduity on the part of the collectors, but simply because the ratepayers could not find the money to pay their rates. I saw circulars from the Minister's Department castigating the collectors, but they are doing their best. I have personal reasons to know that the difficulty in getting money is very marked in the urban districts.

There is another matter of importance in regard to small urban districts, and that is their contribution to the county rates. A county rate is levied upon the urban district. A demand is made upon the urban authorities for a certain amount of money and that demand is a net one; in other words, they are asked to provide the county council with so much money before the end of the financial year, and the amount must be paid without any regard to the cost of collecting. The fact is that a lot of it may not be collected at all, but still the money has to be paid to the county council. If there is a deficiency in that rate the result is that the town rate becomes higher on the persons who are paying rates. In other words, the poverty of a town is reflected by an increased rate. That may seem rather anomalous, but the fact is that the poorer a town gets the higher go the rates, because the capacity of the people to pay has got less. There is a growing demand for social services. Grants are given in the form of relief of rates on agricultural land. I think there should be some grant given to urban districts to enable them to carry out schemes that they are not able to finance from their own limited resources.

Reference was made to the building of houses. A house that would be passed ten years ago by the Minister would not be passed to-day, because the houses now must have efficient water supplies. In the old days, a house could be built and it was sufficient if we had a pump or a well. Now water has to be laid on to every house. Of course, that is very proper and right, but in many small towns it is impossible to provide an adequate water supply to meet the requirements of the new housing schemes, and the urban authorities are very much handicapped in that regard. I have seen money spent in small rural areas in County Cork and I have seen schemes costing £10,000 carried out in small places. Of course, they were helped in the way of a relief grant, and also by a loan on easy terms. They were further assisted by the fact that boards of health are able to make a certain portion of the cost a county-at-large charge. An urban district cannot do that, because they must borrow money under their own borrowing powers, and based on their own capacity to pay-Schemes of this kind are much needed in towns with £4,000 or £5,000 valuation; but these schemes cannot be financed out of local resources, and there should be some means by which urban districts could secure assistance from some central fund for the purpose of carrying out big schemes which would be necessary under a proper system of town planning. I cannot at the moment suggest a way in which this could be done. I do know that the urban districts are very much in need of help to tide them over the existing rather critical condition of affairs.

There is another matter in which I think the Minister is deeply interested. At the time of the change of Government in this country one of the great things we hoped to see accomplished was the abolition of the workhouses. We did abolish workhouses, to an extent, and we now call them county homes. I do not think, however, that we have abolished the workhouse atmosphere from some of the county homes, although very many physical and other changes have been made in order to make the surroundings better and brighter than they were. I would like to draw to the Minister's attention the very efficient work that has been done in certain places. There is one place in particular where they transferred the sick poor, old and infirm people, who were in the county home, to the care and attention of a community of nuns. I am now referring to the Nazareth Home in Mallow, where the old and infirm people who would ordinarily be in the county home are being taken over by the sisters and are being looked after in very pleasant surroundings, altogether different and more homely than the county home surroundings.

I want the Minister to consider the advisibility of having this scheme extended. I would like the Minister to pay a little more attention to the development of this idea. There are through the country various buildings with nice surroundings, where these old people, particularly old-age pensioners who have nobody living with them, and who are living lonely lives, could be brought together in a comfortable home and looked after. Their pensions would practically pay the cost of their maintenance in such a home, and the surroundings would be entirely different from the drab surroundings which even at the present time attach to some of the county homes. The county homes should be done away with, as far as possible. The Minister I think, has that idea. I suggest to him that it is a very humane idea and ought to be carried out when he is in a position to do so.

There has been delay in regard to the building of labourers' cottages in Cork. There seems to be some difficulty, particularly in South Cork, in getting those cottages built. I would draw the Minister's attention to the necessity for speeding up this work, because nowhere are such cottages so badly needed. A lot has been said about the building of double banks to these cottages. I think they are very unsightly and very bad. There is also the danger of building cottages at road corners. In a good many cases, these corners have had to be eased off. I think cottages should be kept away from such corners as much as possible, because the easing-off of the corners may mean the taking away of portions of the plots attached to the cottages. I agree with Deputy Crowley, also, that some attention should be paid to the building of cottages of stone or brick as against concrete. Some of these concrete cottages, though easily built, are very unsightly. I think we should carry town-planning ideas into the country, too, and see that cottages are not built of blocks of concrete which are so unsightly. We should endeavour to see that the cottages and their surroundings lend something to the landscape. I do not intend to throw any bouquets at the officials of the Minister's Department because they are doing now what they always did, namely, acting with great courtesy and attention.

Mr. Beegan

In the course of this debate several Deputies have brought out many useful points. But Deputy Brennan, the mover of the amendment, did not impress me at all. He referred to increased expenditure and increased staffs. Everybody must admit that, in the past three or four years, there has been a very great increase in our social services, and that we could not have that increase without having increased expenditure and increased staffs. The housing scheme and free milk scheme are two outstanding schemes for the benefit of the people. I think no amount of money should be spared in getting them going, and going in the best possible manner. The speech delivered by Deputy Tom Kelly was, in my opinion, a masterpiece and should be broadcast all over the country.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear. I certainly hope it will.

Mr. Beegan

I meet certain people down the country who say we are going too fast in regard to housing. They say it means a great cost, and they ask how is that cost to be met. These people take a short-sighted view, in my opinion, because, after all, good housing conditions will mean reduction in taxation later on. It will mean that we will not require so much money to be expended on sickness and hospital treatment, for instance. As regards the milk scheme, I believe, in many cases, the amount made available to local authorities is not expended. If that is so, I ask the Minister if it is not possible to extend the granting of free milk to children beyond the age of five years. I think it should be given to children up to seven or nine years. Suddenly switching off your children from supplies of milk to tea, and bad tea at that, is not desirable.

Another matter mentioned by Deputy Brennan was in regard to labourers' cottages. He said that, under some boards of health, the cottages were not built up to specification. I think it is better to have reports coming in in that way than if we had inspectors saying everything is "O.K." in every case, because then there would be no need for inspectors at all. There are many difficulties in the way. In connection with the building of cottages, the boards are expected to give the contract to the person who sends in the lowest tender. In many cases, the contractors are not what would be termed qualified men, but many of these men have carried on building for the Land Commission and the Board of Works. It is not too easy for a board of health to have special lists of selected contractors to whom to give contracts. I think it would be foolish if we were to insist upon that. If we were to confine contracts to a special few, we know that a ring would very soon be created. As regards cottages that have not been properly finished, the Minister can be depended upon to deal with that matter. It would be very serious for the boards of health if they did not fall into line with the reports of the inspectors. In the first instance, it would be possible for the Minister to withhold the free grant.

One thing I do not like is the idea uppermost in the minds of some engineers of building double cottages in rural districts. There should be no double cottages. They should be 100 to 150 feet apart, at least. There was one mistake made in my country in regard to labourers' cottages, and that was not to go in for a compulsory scheme. I think it would be far better if the compulsory scheme was put into operation. Some people who have good land will not give a plot voluntarily, and, if they do consent to give it, they want a price representing about five times its value. I think it would be better if a compulsory scheme were put into operation by the State in all parts of the country. You could then select in the different districts the cottage sites, and you would have these sites taken over in a comparatively shorter time than under a voluntary arrangement. There has also been a certain amount of delay in the operations of sub-division. There are questions of title and all sorts of difficulties arising which holds up the work for a considerable time. I am altogether out against the double cottages in rural areas. I do not at all agree with the view expressed by Deputy Curran and Deputy Holohan that there should be concrete walls surrounding the cottages instead of sod fences. I think that would be a very great mistake. In the first place, it would mean greater expenditure and, secondly, I think there is nothing more beautiful in the country than a sod fence and a bush hedge. Any deterioration that there might be of the few yards of land inside the fence could easily be remedied because cultivation would bring it right in a very short time. If there is some dry manure applied in the ploughing and tilling, it is easy to leaven it and bring it up to the same standard of productivity as any other portion. I firmly believe it would be a very great mistake to break away from the sod fences to the concrete wall, which gives the appearance of a barrack compound to a plot.

The question of the retiring age is one to which I should like to refer. It has been before the Galway County Council and its subsidiary bodies for the past month or so and it is almost the unanimous wish of the county council and the bodies attached to it that it should be put into effect. Personally, I believe that it is a proper thing to have a 65-years age limit. It may be argued, and properly argued, that a doctor is just as good at 65 as he was, or perhaps better than he was, at 40, 45 or 50 years, but I believe that even though a doctor's faculties are as clear at 65 years as they were when he was a younger man, his energy is not as great except in the case of one man in a thousand. I do not think that any great hardship would be done, as mentioned by Deputy O'Dowd, to doctors who entered the service at 40 years or 45 years if this age limit were adopted. For the past 20 years, there has been a very considerable increase in the salaries paid to dispensary doctors all over the country. They have been given an opportunity of building up a good private practice, in addition to their salary, and if they have been useful to the people generally, in addition to the allowances they will get by way of superannuation, their valuable private practice will continue on after the 65-year period. Moreover, we have a number of young doctors, and it is, I think, the view of the Government and of everybody interested in the country that these young doctors should not be obliged to go across to England to obtain a practice while we are able to provide for them at home. I am strongly in favour of the regulation as to age limit, and I am, I think, expressing the opinion of the majority of the Galway County Council when I say that the retiring age should be 65 years.

There is another matter which I wish to bring to the notice of the Minister for Local Government. That is as regards the non-relief of the rates of farmers living within urban areas. I think that they are entitled to some relief just as well as farmers living in rural areas. In the City of Galway, and also in Ballinasloe, I know two cases of farmers who live on either side of the boundary. One man gets 6/3 in the £ in relief of his rates, while the man living on the other side has to pay the full urban rate. These farmers derive no benefit from waterworks, sewerage schemes or anything of that kind. It may be argued that they derive benefit from living in such close proximity to the town, inasmuch as a better market for their produce is available. Yet there is the anomaly that a man who is only 20 or 50 yards further from the boundary derives the same advantage, while his rates are very much less. This is a burning question in many urban areas, and I think that the farmers living in these areas should be given some relief—that they should not be called upon to bear the same rate as business people and others living within the urban areas.

The last point to which I want to refer is one which was alluded to by Deputy Brennan. The Deputy said that on roads, sewerage and waterworks schemes all the employment was being given to those on the unemployment assistance list, and that that was not right. I think that procedure is the proper procedure. The criticism we have to meet from every side is that people should be given work instead of being given money on the dole. Now, when there is an opportunity, I think it is only right that people on unemployment assistance should be called upon in the first place. But there are cases where a certain amount of discretion should be left to the surveyor or the man in charge, because some men who have large families are getting it pretty hard to carry on.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. Beegan

Deputy Dillon may claim that that condition of affairs has been brought about as a result of the economic war, but I hold it has not. There are people throughout the country who were very ambitious from 1918 up to the time of the slump. They got big bank overdrafts in order to purchase land and for other purposes. The position of these people has been very difficult. They may have young families and may not be able to avail of the agricultural policy of the Government as regards work on the land. It is difficult for such a person to carry on, and it is impossible for him to pay for labour, even though the wages paid to agricultural labourers are not what we would desire.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear.

Mr. Beegan

In cases like that a discretion should be left to the surveyors. To my own knowledge, the county surveyors in Galway have always acted very fairly. Before I became a public representative, I wrote on behalf of such people and, though I believe the surveyors I refer to hold different political opinions from those which I hold, still they always acted very fairly and met any cases I put up to them in a reasonable way. A discretion in cases of that kind should be permitted.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. O Ceallaigh)

The past couple of days, which were given over to a discussion of problems that intimately touch the life of the country, were to me a very interesting couple of days. I have listened attentively to the numerous speakers. I have had put before me, in some cases for the first time, interesting suggestions, and I have had valuable criticisms of various phases of the work of the Department —criticisms of a constructive kind, put forward in a friendly and helpful kind of way from all sides of the House. I should like to thank the Deputies of all Parties who offered these criticisms and who made these suggestions. If I were to follow the various speakers into anything like adequate detail on the matters raised, I should probably occupy the time of the House for a week, and I do not think that the House would be prepared to afford me that time.

From the voluminous notes I have made I would not object to following each speaker on the points that were raised and discussing the criticisms and the suggestions they made in order to try to arrive at some agreement as to what was the best line of policy to pursue in connection with local government. Generally speaking, the attitude taken has been that local government is not a Party political matter, because, with the possible exception of Deputy Dillon, I do not think anyone else raised what might be called Party politics on this Estimate. It has not been the attitude generally adopted by the House. I do not object to it, particularly in the case of Deputy Dillon, because I know that he can be answered, and can be shown to be very foolish, indeed unusually foolish, in the efforts he made to try to drag political capital out of housing and other questions. Some departments of government touch the people to a greater extent than others, but I think it can be claimed that the Department of Local Government touches the ordinary life of the citizen closely at many points, from the time a child comes into the world until a grown person is called to judgment. The functions of the Department are very varied, and, of course, most important, and it is gratifying to see the deep interest there is in work that so vitally concerns the life, the welfare, and the social well-being of the people as was exhibited in the course of the debate. I will not attempt to follow many of the speakers and much of the criticism in detail, but I say to any Deputy whose points I may not refer to that the officials of the Department have made a very full note of them, and that the suggestions offered, as well as the criticisms, will not be lost sight of. I tried to carry in my mind some of the suggestions that were made, whether in regard to housing, water schemes, roads and public matters, and when schemes are being put into operation in different centres, these suggestions will not be lost sight of. We try as far as possible when schemes are being elaborated to meet the wishes of Deputies and of the country in so far as such suggestions are practicable or the criticism useful. If I do not mention in detail many of the suggestions made by Deputies, I hope they will not feel offended, and will bear in mind that it is impossible to go over all of them. They have been noted and they will not be pigeonholed and put away.

Perhaps one of the subjects of most importance, and one of the earliest raised, was the big subject of housing. Deputies will remember the speech of Deputy Kelly, which was referred to by several Deputies who took part in the debate. If I judged him aright, Deputy Kelly seemed to be offended, and suggested that members of the Dublin Corporation were offended, with remarks made by me in this House when discussing a Housing Bill, and at a later stage on the same Bill in the Seanad. I do not remember what appeared in the Press generally that might have given offence. When I heard Deputy Kelly's speech I sent for the Official Debates of the Dáil and Seanad, and I will read to the House a few words of what I said with regard to the Dublin Corporation and its work on housing. Replying to some remarks made by different Senators, and by Senator Farren in particular, I said:—

"Senator Farren, to my mind, was quite right in giving praise to the Dublin Municipal Council for the work it has done in the last few years. The council, and the City Manager, deserve praise for the number of houses they have built. But what I said in the Dáil, and stated in public on a good many occasions, I repeat here, that while praising the council and the manager for what they have done, I am not happy, or satisfied, with the present rate of progress made in the City of Dublin..."

I do not think there is anything in that at which either Deputy Kelly or the Dublin Corporation could or should find any reason for offence.

"...They have been barely able to keep pace with the natural decay that has taken place. At the present time we are hardly doing anything more than keeping pace with that. We are, perhaps, making up leeway, to a certain extent, but not to any great extent, and at the present rate of 1,000 houses a year, or less, which is the rate in the last three or four years, I cannot see the housing problem in Dublin ever being solved. I agree, however, that the position has been very difficult, but it must be got over, and Dublin must build at least double that number if we are to see the housing problem, in its larger and wider aspect including houses for the working classes, ended in our day."

I do not think that is a statement that anybody can contradict. When I was a member of the Dublin Municipal Council, before I came to this Assembly, and before the Dublin Corporation was abolished in 1924, I remember more than once at that time at meetings of the housing committee urging the Corporation to build if possible 3,000 houses a year, and there was a promise given that an effort would be made to get 2,000 houses a year. We have not got near that yet, and that was 12 years ago. We have in Dublin up to last year hardly reached 1,000 houses a year. I would like to give every credit to the Corporation and to every one else concerned, the City Manager in particular. I am happy to say that there is a housing programme in hands at present that will probably mean the completion of 2,000 houses in this financial year. There is actually in hands at present something like 1,000 houses and as a beginning will shortly be made on others, it is believed that by the end of this financial year there will be over 2,000 houses, perhaps 2,100 houses provided. If that can be done this year, it can be done next year, and perhaps the rate of progress can be increased.

That brings me to a point on which I wanted to speak to Deputy Dillon about, from his point of view, foolish statements. I do not object to criticism in the least. I do not object to the Deputy taking Deputy Kelly's speech and using it and rubbing it in as hard as he likes on every platform he goes on, either in the city or anywhere in the rural or urban areas. The more of that kind of talk there is, as to the necessity for proper and decent housing, and the more often Deputy Dillon or other Deputies speak on the subject of the abominable housing conditions that still exist, the better I like it.

I think that in recent years there has been a healthier public opinion due largely to the Press, a matter for which I should like to give them credit. All parties in the Press have taken up this matter. The Irish Times, I think, began it some years ago and played a very creditable part in educating public opinion with regard to housing. It was particularly useful coming from them, as the opposition and the criticism very largely came from people who did not like increased rates because they were large property owners. The Irish Times played a good part in educating these people, from the social point of view as well as from the Christian point of view, as to the necessity of having housing programmes speeded up, and the people provided with the houses that were absolutely essential for the well-being of the whole community— property owners as well as poor people. There is also the point of view that Deputy Dillon mentioned the other day, the provision of houses as a social safeguard. It is our duty to see that proper housing accommodation is provided for the people living in the 1,600 basements in Dublin, and the people living under wretched conditions even in country districts where land should be cheap. There are people living in hovels in these rural districts where a decent farmer would not keep his pigs. Some of our local authorities are not helpful in this matter. There are local authorities that have been blocking the Department of Local Government for various reasons—sometimes I think it is for political reasons, and sometimes for other reasons. There are local authorities in the country that have not, even though the 1932 Act has been in operation now for nearly four years, built one-tenth, and some of them not one-twentieth, of the number of cottages for labourers that are necessary in rural districts.

As many Deputies have said, there is not the same difficulty—Deputy Dillon stressed that fact—in rural areas as there is in the larger urban areas, particularly in the City of Dublin. Local authorities, such as boards of health and urban councils, have not very great difficulties. There are some small financial difficulties such as those to which Deputy O'Neill referred, as some small urban areas, not, I believe, because of the economic war but because of transport, have lost a good deal of the revenue they formerly received. Because of easy transport, people are now going into the larger towns. That is not true of one part of the country alone, but of the whole country. There has been a big change in the social life of the country in matters of business and shopping, because of the revolutionary change in transport. In the City of Dublin I know that there are difficulties, not alone financial difficulties. There have been financial difficulties, but it is untrue to say—and I should like Deputy Dillon to take particular note of this—that the Government have refused to come to the aid of Dublin Corporation with regard to finances for housing.

Deputy Kelly told of a deputation to me and, later on, of a deputation to the Minister for Finance. The Minister for Finance went carefully into the question of the provision of finance for housing with that deputation, and he told the deputation that it had been their custom to look after themselves in regard to their loans and that they had been able, up to then, always to float their own loans. There was some temporary difficulty, and the Minister said to them quite sympathetically, "See if you can get over that difficulty; it is probably only temporary. See if you can get that money. Some of you suggested that you can get it outside Ireland. Well, try. Some of you suggested that there is a hold-up; that the financiers want to drive too hard a bargain. Go ahead and see if you can get it elsewhere, and if you fail to get it on the terms on which you think you should get it, come back to me and I shall see what can be done." That was the answer given, but they did not come back. They applied some months later for another loan to the same financiers in Dublin, and the loan was subscribed in a few hours—two and a half times over. There was a hold-up for some months for reasons I do not know. The bankers found some difficulty in providing money at a particular period last year.

Mr. Dillon

And at a particular rate of interest.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

And at a particular rate of interest. They were driving a hard bargain.

Mr. Dillon

The Corporation?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

The Corporation thought they should get it at a certain figure.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister for Finance made the same mistake.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I do not agree. The Minister for Finance likes to drive as hard a bargain as anybody else, and it is in the State's interest that he should do so.

Mr. Dillon

Certainly.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Despite what Deputy Cosgrave said yesterday, speaking on financial matters on which he likes to pose as an authority—and the more often he speaks the more he loses any reputation he may ever have had as a financier—about our getting money here as cheaply as local authorities in England, we never got money here for local purposes as cheaply as local authorities in England can get money for their purposes. It has always been at least one per cent. higher. Never in the history of the country did we get money for local purposes as cheaply as the authorities in England. I should like to say that efforts have been made to get money from the people who control finances here in the Saorstát, for different purposes, as cheap as it could be got in England, and they have failed. Other bodies, that sometimes we might regard as more important in the public life of the country than even the Government itself, have been hammering at the doors of the banks for a reduction in the rate on loans they get from time to time, and the security given was as good, if not better, than the Government could offer. I know that in the last year or two they pressed the banks again and again, but the banks have remained firm.

Mr. Dillon

A better security than the Government could offer?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

There is no better security than the Government could offer, despite the statement of Deputy Cosgrave that the credit of the State was not good.

Mr. Dillon

Not as good as it was.

Mr. Morrissey

I think the Minister is unfair to Deputy Cosgrave. Deputy Cosgrave did not say that the credit of the State was not good. Those were not his words.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

That is what I took down. I do not want to misrepresent him.

Mr. Morrissey

I do not think he made that statement, and I was present when he was speaking.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Then I accept what Deputy Morrissey says and I withdraw. Did Deputy Cosgrave say that it was not as good as it was when we came in?

Mr. Morrissey

Something to that effect.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

As a matter of fact it is better now.

Mr. Morrissey

That is a matter of opinion.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Take the value and price of the various National Loans. If that is any test, they are better now than they were when we came in. They are better all round, and I suppose that is as good a test as anyone could have.

Mr. Dillon

I am afraid the Minister will lose his reputation as a financier if he goes on that line.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I have never posed as a financier. Unlike Deputy Cosgrave, perhaps I never had enough financial standing to go about posing as a financier. As I said earlier, I think Deputy Dillon was very foolish in spoiling a good case by dragging in politics unnecessarily. This is all politics. The work of a Government is practically all politics. In discussing this matter of local government we ought to be able to do so from a practical point of view, but, of course, King Charles's head—the economic war— had to be dragged in, and for the first time in this debate, by Deputy Dillon. It reminds me of what his late leader, General O'Duffy, said: "Where would the Party be if they had not the economic war? They would have nothing to talk about." They would have nothing to hit the Fianna Fáil Government with. It was on that basis, I suppose, that the Deputy dragged it in. He talked about the £17,000,000 that we have handed over to John Bull, or that he has taken from us. But what about the £45,000,000 or £50,000,000 that the Deputy's Party handed over and handed over willingly? If we had that sum of money, how many houses could we build? Deputy Cosgrave said yesterday "we were well able to pay it some years ago," so that if Deputy Dillon talked about the £17,000,000 I can talk about the £50,000,000 that his Party handed over willingly, but that will not get us any further. Deputy Dillon is too fond of bringing in on occasion that kind of blatherskite. It does not suit here. It may suit at the cross-roads all right. Both of us may get away with it there, and I think I have done my share of it.

Mr. Morrissey

Hear, hear!

Mr. O Ceallaigh

And so has every other member of the House who ever talked at the cross-roads. When questions are fired at you there you make the readiest answer you can. I have done it in my time, and so has Deputy Dillon, who studied under General O'Duffy, the ablest master of blatherskite I ever listened to. I must say that the Deputy seems to have studied very effectively under his leader during the year or so that he kept him in office.

Mr. Dillon

The relevance of what I have said seems to have rankled the Minister.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

No: I am well used to it.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister does not seem to like it all the same.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I am quite happy about it. I am a good deal older than the Deputy and have had more experience in politics, and I would say to him that if he would avoid dragging in unnecessarily clap-trap and blatherskite he would be a much more effective critic even of the Government and its policy and of the principles on which it is working. He would do much better even in the House. I think he should take that advice from me. But I suppose when advice is cheap it is not thought much about. I assure the Deputy however that it is meant sincerely for his good.

Mr. Dillon

I beg leave to doubt the last part of the Minister's observation.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

The Deputy can doubt it if he wishes but I can assure him that it is all meant for his good. I do not know that I need say anything more about the Dublin Corporation and the remarks of Deputy Kelly and Deputy Dillon. I repeat that I do not object to the urgent demand for houses being stressed everywhere, and particularly in regard to the City of Dublin where our greatest problem is. If there is any constructive, practical suggestion that can be made by anybody as to how we can make greater progress in providing proper houses for the people in the 1,600 basements in Dublin I will be very happy to hear it, and do all I can to make it effective.

Mr. Dillon

Before the Minister leaves that, are we to understand from him now that he declares that any money the Corporation can satisfy him is necessary for the carrying through of this reform will be made available by the Government in the event of the Corporation being unable to raise it in the public money market?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I remember that on the first occasion I spoke here as a Minister on housing I told the House that when I first sat around the Executive Council table I was asked to produce my housing scheme. I did so, not of course in detail, because I have to rely on the efficient staff in the Department of Local Government for the details. Let me say now, in case I should forget to do so later, that I am grateful to the House for the many tributes they have paid to the staff of the Local Government Department. No Minister could do all that has been spoken of by himself if he had not an efficient, a competent and a willing staff behind him to carry out all the splendid work that is being done all over the country under the direction and drive of the headquarters staff of the Department. As I have said, I produced that scheme at the meeting of the Executive Council. After a good deal of criticism and discussion it was agreed to. We hammered out the scheme that was afterwards embodied in the 1932 Act. When it came to the question of finance the President promised me that any money that was necessary for housing, any money that was necessary to help the local authorities in the way of grants or otherwise for housing, to clear away the slums and to provide decent sanitary accommodation for the people would be provided by the Government, and I stand over that.

Mr. Dillon

So that the Corporation may now go straight ahead and apply to the Minister?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I have made a very definite clear statement.

Mr. Dillon

And a very important statement.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

It is not the first time that I have made it.

Mr. Dillon

The Corporation do not seem to have understood it.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Again, I may say that I welcome Deputy Dillon's criticism, and that while the language that he and Deputy Kelly used in describing in detail the awful housing conditions in Dublin was strong, I do not object to it. I know the conditions that Deputy Dillon talked about. I lived in a slum district. I was born in a slum district in Dublin, and lived in the slums for a great part of my life.

I know as well as anybody in the City of Dublin what it is to live in the slums, and what the conditions of the people there are, and I do not think that Deputy Kelly exaggerated one bit, but I should like that to sink into the minds not alone of the people in Dublin, but of the people of the country as a whole who have to help to provide this money——

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. O Ceallaigh

——so that they may realise what it is we are up against, and what are the conditions we are trying to improve. If I get talking on this subject I am afraid I will use up all the time I have, and the time is limited. Certainly we in this Government are making the first real effort to abolish the slums. We have not gone very far yet, but we have done something. It is the first real effort. Deputy Dillon's Party were ten years in power and there was nothing done to abolish the slums, even though they were ready and willing, and did hand over £50,000,000 to John Bull. Deputy Dillon says we are handing over £17,000,000.

Mr. Holohan

And it is still going.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Houses in brick and stone can be built by any local authority if they can build them anywhere nearly as cheaply as they can build them in concrete. We have no objection at all, but I try to bear in mind that every additional £10 capital cost in the building of a house means an additional 3d. per week in the rent. We have to bear that in mind. When Deputies press me, as they have done in the House, to use Waterford brick, Athy brick or brick of some other place, I say: "What is the cost?" I have agreed, in experimental schemes here and there, to an additional £10, £15, or even in one case £18, in the cost in order to see if, by supporting some of those brick factories and supporting other people by building in stone, and giving them enough to do, we could bring down the cost and make it approach to within £10 of what the other cottages cost. If they could do that we would gladly allow them to build in brick or stone, but otherwise it would be unfair to the tenants who have to go into those cottages. They have no choice in the matter; they are not asked whether they want brick or stone, or whether they are prepared to pay an extra 3d. per week. We are told we ought to protect those industries. The Waterford brick factory was mentioned. We are doing everything we can in offering protection, but there must be some limit. £15 or £18 additional cost in a labourer's cottage, which means an extra 5d. per week in the rent as long as that cottage lasts, is too big a price to pay for using any particular brick.

The Housing Board has been mentioned. I should like to say that I have found the Housing Board of very special benefit and advantage to me in putting forward housing schemes. The progress which we have made in town and country so far has been due to a considerable extent to their efforts and to their good offices. The Department officials are there; they do their work conscientiously, energetically and well, but there is a type of work which I might call a sort of propaganda work— going around and talking to local authorities and encouraging them— that the officials could not be expected to do, and that kind of work which I could not do with individual local authorities has been most successfully done by the members of the Housing Board. They have met members of the local authorities face to face, and where there were difficulties for which they were not able to provide a solution on the spot, they had very ready access to the officials and the technicians of the Department, and were able to smooth over difficulties which might otherwise have taken months of correspondence to get over. They have certainly proved most helpful to me. One member of the Housing Board resigned when called upon by me to resign. I wanted to get for the Housing Board an engineer of standing who would not be allied with any interest in the country. I searched round until I eventually found one whom I thought would fill the bill, and I appointed him. Well, it did not work. He and his colleagues could not get on. Somebody had to go, and I had to call for the resignation of that member, to my very great regret. I have not filled the place, because I have not found an engineer who is detached, who has no affiliations, who is not in business, to fill the vacancy. If I find anybody suitable I may fill the position.

Deputy Everett raised here yesterday the question of the Wicklow Fever Hospital, and I must say that I was much impressed by the feeling which he displayed in that regard. On the other hand, I must say to him that I read over the summary of evidence which was put before me by the experienced officer who was sent down to hold that public inquiry. I read over his reports carefully, and I am satisfied that there was a grave conflict of evidence. I am satisfied that the statements made by Deputy Everett were not all borne out, but were contradicted in the main by other evidence.

Mr. Everett

By the nurses?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

No. There was actually a patient in the hospital——

Mr. Everett

It was one against three.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

There was a patient in the hospital who denied in toto the statements on which Deputy Everett based his case. I sent down an experienced officer—an officer who has no ties in the district, who has no interest but to be impartial, and whose job it is to go round from time to time and examine institutions of that kind—to make that inquiry, and I got his report. I believe in his honesty and impartiality, and I know his experience. He found that the charges were not true. I have, as everybody in this House must have, the deepest possible sympathy for any parent who loses a child in hospital or anywhere else.

Mr. Everett

He did not bring to the Minister's attention the fact that——

Mr. O Ceallaigh

The Deputy has had his turn.

Mr. Everett

You were given only a summary of it. One nurse had 48 hours' duty, while others were out at amusements.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

The Deputy is a member of the board of health in charge of that hospital. He lives in the same town and knows the conditions.

Mr. Everett

That is why I brought the matter up.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Why did not the Deputy see that there was a proper staff?

Mr. Everett

We had four of a staff, but the Minister has not got a word of that from the inspector. He refused to take a note of it.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I do not say that the Deputy has any responsibility other than that of a member of the board of health. If he knew there were things going on in that fever hospital which should not go on he could have brought the matter before the board of health.

Mr. Everett

I did.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

And the Deputy got a sworn inquiry, but the charges were not upheld.

Mr. Everett

It was a summary that the Minister got.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

If the Deputy wishes, I will read over every line of the evidence. I will try to read it with an open and unprejudiced mind, but I am satisfied that the result will be the same. If there is one thing which I, as Minister, would not stand for, it would be neglect of patients by doctors or nurses in fever or other hospitals. We have had cases in the last year, and more than once since I became Minister, where nurses and doctors were dismissed after a full inquiry and after having had an opportunity to state their case. The same thing will happen in any other hospital or in any other office where there are officials who neglect their duty, and that neglect is proved. I could not go myself to hold an inquiry, but I sent down an official who is experienced, who is impartial, who has no particular ties in the district and who honestly carried out his duty and made a report to the Minister. The Minister is not always bound to accept exactly what is said to him. He can inquire, and the Minister does inquire, and where there is a case of life or death, as there was in the case of the Wicklow Fever Hospital, the Minister does not simply put his name to any document put before him without proper inquiry. That was done in this case, and I am satisfied that an impartial inquiry was held and a proper decision come to by the inspector who held the inquiry.

Mr. Everett

The Minister got only a summary and not the report. A note of the fact that one nurse was left on for 48 hours would not be taken.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Where was the doctor?

Mr. Everett

That was submitted in evidence and the inspector refused to take a note of it. It was published in the paper. There were three nurses absent and one on duty for 48 hours while the children were dying. The inspector said that it was not his duty, as he was inquiring into the allegations of illtreatment of these two children.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I should be glad if the Deputy would furnish me with the data.

Mr. Everett

I will give the Minister the entire paper.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I will read it through, but I want to say that I am satisfied with the justice that was endeavoured to be done by the inspector who held the inquiry. There is another matter which has been the subject of a good deal of discussion—the circular sent out by me in relation to the retiring age of 65. Deputy Rowlette read out the circular, so I need not repeat it, but I would call the attention of the House to the fact that it was stated that "the normal procedure should be that officials of local authorities should retire when they reach the age of 65." The word "normal" was put in deliberately after careful consideration. I noticed that, with very few exceptions, those who spoke on this subject spoke of the doctors and other officials and that very few had any thought for the public welfare. What about the public? Are they not to be considered at all?

Mr. O'Leary

Certainly.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Is there to be no consideration for the people whose lives may be in danger as a result of having officials who are not able, physically or mentally, to carry out their duties?

Mr. O'Leary

There are men of 65 years of age——

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I have sat here for more than two days and the Deputy had plenty of opportunity to talk all he liked on this Estimate, so that he might shut up now. If he did not want to talk, he might keep his mouth closed now. If he does talk, he might talk in a way that somebody might understand him. I cannot understand him. I should like to hear him talking Irish, because then I would understand him. I know he can talk it, and talk it well.

Mr. Dillon

Let us preserve the decorum and good humour of the debate.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Address that to your back bench member. He evidently needs a few lessons.

General Mulcahy

The Minister might understand that his Parliamentary Secretary has been going round the House urging people not to talk on this Estimate, and to let the Minister finish.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I will sit down and wait for any Deputy who wants to talk on it, if it goes on for another week.

Mr. O'Leary

As the Minister has offered to give me the opportunity, I want to put one question to him. Does he wish to convey to the people of this country that a man of 65 is incapable of carrying out his work?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Does the Deputy ever suggest in this House that we ought to withdraw the regulation that is in force that every Government official must retire at 65?

Mr. O'Leary

Is it compulsory on any official to resign at 65?

Mr. O. Ceallaigh

It is, certainly.

Mr. O'Leary

And a medical officer?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I have not made it compulsory.

Mr. O'Leary

That is all I want to know. I am satisfied if you are not making it compulsory.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Deputy Rowlette called attention to my being supposed to have issued an order. I have not done that, and it is clear on the face of the circular that I have not done that, and if anybody wants a copy of the order to study, I will give it to him. Local authorities as well as the Minister, are charged with responsibility for looking after the public welfare, and it has come to my knowledge that there are officials in the local service, many of whom are, for age reasons, long past doing their work efficiently. Deputies know that county councils and boards of health which have been working with an official for 30, 40 and, in some cases, 50 years, will find it very difficult to put it up to that officer that he should retire. They have made friends with everybody on the board and they have large family connections, and a local authority will not ask such officials to resign when they ought to resign. That is the difficulty.

It was frequently put to me that I ought to find a way out for local authorities, so that they would not appear to be doing the bad thing. The Minister is quite prepared to do that, and in many cases there were officials who ought to have retired long ago. There was one type of official who was most frequently mentioned, doctors. There were doctors who were beyond the normal retiring age, who were over 80 years of age, some of whom were almost completely deaf, some feeble and some with other ailments, such as bad sight, who could not properly do their duty. They would not retire, and the local authority for the reasons I have just mentioned would not ask them to retire. Nobody likes to do the bad thing; and the people in a dispensary district would not call on these people to go out at night: it was unfair to them, and, in some cases, if they had, the doctors might not be able to go.

That was the position with regard to doctors and with regard to other officials it is the same. There is a case for special consideration with regard to dispensary doctors. They are in a peculiar position. They are part-time officers, and they are pensionable, and they are the only class of that kind in the local authorities' service. As many Deputies mentioned, some of them come into the service late in life, and there is a case for special consideration there. It was not my intention at any time that local authorities should make a wholesale order that every local official must retire at 65.

Dr. Rowlette

Many of them have done it.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Not many.

Dr. Rowlette

Several have. Has the Minister corrected those who have done it?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I have not.

Mr. O'Leary

The reason that I intervened is because the impression in the country is that every local officer will have to resign at 65.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I am not responsible for that impression because Deputy Rowlette and others asked me here whether I had made an order and I said I had not.

Mr. O'Neill

I do not think it would be legal to make such an order.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

It would not, I think, be legal to make an order that everybody should retire at 65. Local authorities have power under certain conditions to make officials retire at 65. I do not want the impression to get abroad that I have made an order that every local authority—county council, board of health and other bodies—must call on every official to resign at 65. I have not made such an order and I have not made such a suggestion, but I want to encourage local authorities, and I think the House will be with me in this, to see to it that, if they have officials in their employment upon whose efficient carrying out of their duties so much of the public welfare and the public health depends, who are not fit to carry out their duty efficiently and properly at the age of 65 or 60 they should be asked to retire. I thought I would be able to finish to-day but it does not look like it.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again on Tuesday.

The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, April 28th, 1936.