The concluding phrase of the Minister's statement brings up a matter upon which I would like to have a very clear and explicit statement from him. He has told us a considerable amount about the acquisition and the division of land during the last year, and said that was due to the work done by the officials of the Land Commission: that it was attributable to them—to use his exact words— rather than "to any efforts of mine." Now, that raises, as I say, a question upon which I would like to hear the Minister speak definitely and authoritatively, because we have had again and again from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister, statements in this House that services, which are reserved services to the Land Commission, are reserved completely and entirely to them not only in theory but in absolutely strict fact: that as far as the acquisition of land is concerned, the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary has nothing on earth to do with that question, and that as far as the distribution of land is concerned, the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister has nothing on earth to do with that. If land is acquired fast, no credit is due to the Minister and none to the Parliamentary Secretary; if land is acquired slowly no discredit is to be attached to the Minister or to the Parliamentary Secretary. Those are purely and entirely reserved services.
We have been told by the Parliamentary Secretary that in those reserved services neither the Minister nor he interferes. I would like to know definitely from the Minister if things are precisely under the surface as they appear to be on the surface, and if the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary do not, in fact, interfere in the questions both of the acquisition and of the division of land. If they keep to the strict letter of the law, and if those services that are reserved to the officials of the Land Commission in which, by law, the Minister has no right to interfere, no power to interfere—to which the Minister is as much a stranger as any Deputy in this House or any member of the community who is not a Deputy of the House—then I would like to know, if that is the case, why does the Minister talk of "any efforts of mine" in the concluding words of his speech? He has no right to make any efforts. The rate at which the procedure goes is a reserved service. The Minister has no right to make any efforts for the acquisition of land; he has no right to make any efforts for the division of land; he has no right to interfere at all. If the Minister does not, in fact, make any efforts, if the Minister does not, in fact, interfere, as we have been told again and again by the Parliamentary Secretary, then they cannot have it both ways. The faults of the Land Commission are very many. I am going to mention some of them to-night. If the faults of the Land Commission are to be placed upon the shoulders of the Land Commission officials, and the Minister is to wash his hands completely of them, then everything which is to the credit of the Land Commission officials as far as the acquisition or speedy division of land is concerned is not a matter for which the Minister can take any credit. If on the one hand he declines to take any blame, and shelters himself behind the strict provisions of the Act, then on the other hand the strict provisions of the Act prevent him from taking any credit. I am assuming now that the Parliamentary Secretary's statements in this House are correct—that the Minister does not interfere at all in the acquisition of land or the division of land. It would have been very much more candid and more clear to the people of this State if the Minister had said: "It is not due to any effort of mine; it is due to no effort of mine, because I have made no effort." That being the case, and the Minister having nothing to do with the acquisition of land or the division of land, I wonder why the Minister goes on tours around the country.
It was very much advertised that the Minister and one of the Land Commissioners had gone down to East Mayo lately to formulate a scheme of assistance for the people of that neighbourhood. What brought the Minister there at all? It is a reserved service. The Minister has nothing to do with it. The Minister cannot interfere. It is completely reserved, and it is reserved as I have already said— quoting as my authority the Parliamentary Secretary, who surely ought to know—in fact as well as in theory. Why does the Minister go around and make those parades, deceiving the people into the belief that he is doing something and making some effort, when in truth and in fact, according to the Parliamentary Secretary, he is carrying out the law very strictly and is not venturing to make a single suggestion to the Land Commission officials as to how they should carry out the duties which are imposed upon them, which are reserved services, and in which by the Act of 1933 he is debarred from interfering? I should like the Minister to make that point very clear. Does he interpret the statute as the Parliamentary Secretary interprets it? I quite agree that the interpretation is plain. They are reserved services, but I want to know if they have been altogether as much reserved as the Parliamentary Secretary would lead us to believe, because certain things have happened which certainly shake my belief in the suggestion that the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary have never interfered in the acquisition or distribution of land. I should say incidentally that not alone has that statement been made by the Parliamentary Secretary, but it has also been publicly made by other members of the Executive Committee, notably by the Minister for Agriculture with reference to the acquisition of certain lands in Wexford.
The matter of the acquisition of these lands in Wexford is very interesting. It has come before the House already, but I should like again to draw the attention of the House to the full and complete matter. Certain farmers in County Wexford—all of whom are men holding comparatively small acreages of land, going from 20 to 80 acres, all of whom are residing upon their land, all of whom were tilling and working their land very properly, and all of whom are living in the vicinity of farms, some of which were let upon the eleven months system, and some of which were actually lying derelict—were selected by the Land Commission as persons from whom land was to be taken, in preference to the land which was lying, as I say, practically derelict in the neighbourhood, and the owners of which were willing to sell. The Land Commission sent down to this body of farmers—six or seven of them —a notice saying, "It is the intention of the Land Commission to acquire this land." The matter was raised in this House, and this excuse was brought forward: "The Land Commission have made a mistake. The notice which was meant to be set out was a notice saying that the Land Commission intended to inspect this land with a view to acquiring it." I want to know why the first mistake was made, and what explanation the Minister is going to give to this House and to the people of this country for that initial mistake.
It was rather an interesting little matter. One day one of the owners of the land that was to be acquired received a letter from the Land Commission. He had not written to the Land Commission and he was rather astonished at receiving a letter from them. On opening the letter from them he discovered that it was a formal acknowledgment in Irish—as all formal acknowledgments are—with the name of his property on the heading, and the name of the person to which it was addressed, a prominent Fianna Fáil supporter in the neighbourhood, at the end. It was perfectly obvious— at least it appears to be perfectly obvious; if there is any other explanation I should like to hear it from the Minister—that a communication had been received from this prominent person with reference to this land; that they had meant to acknowledge that communication, and that while they had put the right name inside they had put the wrong name outside by mistake. Instead of putting the name of the addressee they had put the name of the owner of the land. I should like to know from the Minister if there is any other explanation except that. I dealt with this matter myself at a public meeting, and I am aware that a particular individual of the same name has disclaimed writing to the Land Commission. He told me that himself and I think it right to mention the fact in this House. He came to see me with reference to this matter, and he told me that he had gone to the Land Commission and that the person whom he had seen in the Land Commission had informed him that they had acted in this matter entirely on the report of their inspectors.
But the inspectors had never seen the land. The Land Commission had never sent an inspector to the land at any time. Without any inspection at all they had stated their intention of taking up the land; therefore they could not have had any reports from their inspectors. Of course, the matter went a bit further because the injustice of this proceeding was very apparent and very striking. The Minister for Agriculture went down to Wexford —by a strange coincidence be arrived there on Saturday and Deputy Dillon was to speak on Sunday—and announced that the Land Commission were completely repentant and were going to withdraw all these notices. I believe that all the notices were withdrawn, with one exception, and that that one exception has now been withdrawn was apparent from an answer made by the Parliamentary Secretary to Deputy Keating to-day. In the course of his speech the Minister for Agriculture again made the statement that, of course, the Minister for Lands could not be blamed for the sending out of those notices or the taking up of those lands; that it was not a matter for which the Minister for Lands could be blamed in the slightest bit, because the Minister for Lands had no power to interfere and had not in fact interfered in the question of the acquisition of lands.
Personally I very much wish that that was the case, and that no sinister influences were being brought to bear upon the officials of the Land Commission, but I must express very grave doubts as to whether that is entirely the case, and as to whether no influences are being brought to bear upon the members of the Land Commission, because I do not think the members of the Land Commission, who are supposed to carry on this work uninterrupted, undisturbed, and unconsulted by the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary, have suddenly become the rabid supporters of the Fianna Fáil Party, that they must have become, if, without, any influence being brought to bear upon them, they have done a certain number of things that have been done. I very much question if there is this pre-eminence given to certain prominent Fianna Fáil supporters by the officials if influence is not being brought to bear upon the officials. I want a very clear and definite statement from the Minister that he has strictly observed—and if he has not in the past, that he will in the future observe—the law, as it is interpreted, and, I think, correctly interpreted, by the Parliamentary Secretary, so often in this House, and by the Minister for Agriculture in the speech to which I have referred, and that he will not interfere, but will leave the conduct of the acquisition and division of land to the Land Commission officials entirely and will see that they are kept there un-influenced by anybody—and by that I mean by anybody using political influence upon them—in the carrying out of their work.
I have said that I do not believe that the Land Commission officials have suddenly become very strong political supporters of the Government. I find it very hard indeed to accept any statement that resolutions from Fianna Fáil clubs as to what land should be acquired, do not reach, and are not conveyed, to the officials of the Land Commission, and that they do not carry weight when they do reach those officials. I have just mentioned in connection with that Wexford case, the curious feature of this letter being sent out with the name on it, though not actually addressed to, of a prominent Fianna Fáil supporter and I believe the same thing is happening elsewhere.
Let me leave Wexford for the moment and come down to my own constituency. I have already in this House drawn attention to what I would submit is a breach of the law by the Minister. On that question of the legality or illegality of the action of the Land Commission, I do not wish to say a single word at the moment, because, as you are aware, Sir, it is a matter upon which I have requested the Attorney-General to express his view as to whether their action is legal, and the Attorney-General has promised to express his view when he has fully considered the matter. Therefore, I am not going to dwell upon what seems to me to be the illegality of the action and as to whether these sales can or cannot stand, is a matter which the Attorney-General has promised to consider, and, I am sure, will consider.
Let me come to the particular sales themselves. Land is acquired on an estate called the Bowen Estate. The tenant was a man called Heshin, and the lands were the lands of Coolbawn, beside the village of Roundfort in County Mayo. On those lands, which were acquired for the relief of congestion, three of the persons who were given land were one medical practitioner and two national teachers. I put it to the House, that if national teachers and medical practitioners want building plots, as we were first told, they should go into the open market and buy them in the open market. Let them not be presented with practical gifts of land by the Irish Land Commission. These men received eight acres, five acres and five acres respectively—18 acres in all. The Parliamentary Secretary discovered that he could not stand over the phrase "building plots" and they were turned into "cow plots"—an entirely new phrase to me. Eight acres of good land were given to a doctor at something like £12 an acre, and that land was bought for the relief of congestion. I want to know how the Minister explains that. Of course, I know the explanation. The doctor was the heart and soul, the life and the vigour, of Fianna Fáil in the vicinity—a very simple explanation. He was a very good canvasser for Fianna Fáil. He stood outside the election booth asking people to vote for them at the last election, and he gets his eight acres of land at £12 an acre—land acquired by the Land Commission for the relief of congestion—and I am asked to believe that that is done off their own bat by the officials of the Irish Land Commission. I have my doubts.
There is another matter I should like to have cleared up. There is one thing we are entitled to in this House. When we put questions to Ministers or Parliamentary Secretaries, we are entitled to get the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and we should not be deceived by answers that are not true. In the immediate vicinity of this farm at Coolbawn, there is an estate which was, at one time, the Lindsay-Fitzpatrick estate, which is now the McCartan estate, Mr. McCartan, a timber merchant, having bought Mr. Lindsay-Fitzpatrick's demesne, at Hollymount. In that demesne there was a gate lodge, in which there was a man, John Moran, an employee of Mr. McCartan, who sometimes worked at timber and sometimes on the land. I put a question on this matter in this House, and I was told that he was only a tenant at will, that he could be evicted at the wish of the Land Commission, and that the Land Commission had already demanded possession from him. I asked why the herd's house on these lands at Coolbawn, to which I have already referred, could not be given to this man, who has a wife and a long family, and why they should be flung on the road by the Land Commission when this house at Coolbawn was available. I asked:
"What has become of the herd's house at Coolbawn to which I refer? Has that been allotted?"
The Minister for Justice answering on behalf of the Minister for Lands, replied:
"I understand it has been given to a migrant."
I then asked:
"Has it been given to the doctor as the rest of this farm was? Does the Minister consider that a man who was working on the Hollymount demense is not a more suitable person to get land than the doctor and national teachers who got the land?"
To this the Minister replied:
"There is no question here of a doctor or a national teacher. It was a migrant who was brought in."
I did not believe that. I did not accept it. I put a question to the Parliamentary Secretary later on, and the House will be astonished to hear that this particular herd's house was on the land that was allotted to this doctor. I have been told emphatically here in the House— I read the words—that it was not; that it had been allotted to a migrant; and yet, when I press the matter up and want to know the migrant's name, I am informed "Oh, the Minister for Justice made a mistake," and that the Minister for Justice, in answering this question and saying that it was given to the doctor was drawing on his imagination, in effect. That is practically what it comes to.
Well, I do not accept that. I do not believe that the Minister for Justice made the answer that he did make without having some documentary evidence to support it. That is my own view, at any rate. However it came about, there was a question arising directly out of my question. It was not a vague supplementary question because, in the question I had put, I had mentioned this specific herd's house. I had put it down in the written question, and therefore it was a matter on which the Land Commission, I think, must have given definite information to the Minister. Personally, I do not believe that it was the Minister for Justice who misled this House, but however it came about, we were misled, and I discovered that a definite, categorical answer, which was given to me, was untrue in fact, and that this land which this doctor had received—these eight acres at £12 10s. an acre—did contain the herd's house I mentioned a moment ago, and that this house was available for the man from Hollymount, who was living in the gate lodge and was held to be a tenant at will and that the Land Commission had the power to put out. I do not know whether they have actually acted on that power at the moment. I raised the matter in the House and I sincerely hope that they do not, but the excuse they put forward was that this lodge was on land they had allotted to a migrant. Who is the particular migrant? The County of Mayo is a congested county. It has not enough land on which to supply all the needs of the tenants who live on congested holdings within it. It certainly has got no superfluous land into which migrants from other counties can be brought, and I discovered that this land—this mansion house at Hollymount which used to be Mr. Lindsay-Fitzpatrick's place—is given to a man who is brought in there from the County Roscommon. Roscommon certainly is a county which has got more untenanted land in it, in proportion to its size, than Mayo ever had, and it has not at all the same acute problem of congestion as the County Mayo has, but I discovered that a man was brought in from Roscommon to Mayo and given this mansion house and a considerable area of land besides.
I should also like to know—and I hope the Minister will be able to give me specific details—how much land did this particular individual surrender and how much land did he get together with the Hollymount house. Was it by mere accident that he happened to be—the House, I think, can guess what I am going to say—the heart and soul, the beginning and the end, of Fianna Fáil in the portion of the County Roscommon from which he came? It is a very strange coincidence. There was no political influence, of course! The Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary have nothing to do with it; but by a very strange coincidence that happened. I should like to know how much land he gave up and how much land he got and why a stranger was brought in into the County Mayo.
That is not all. There is another matter which I raised here in the House in connection with which the Parliamentary Secretary thought that he would score a verbal victory by giving the poor law valuation of one particular townland and leaving out the poor law valuations of other townlands. The question to which I refer is a question of the distribution of the lands of Brize which were in the occupation of Senator MacEllin. That matter was raised by me here in the House some little time ago. The motion was spoken to by Deputy Nally, and Deputy Nally and I received the unexpected, but entirely welcome, assistance of Deputy Walsh in condemning the scheme. What were the facts of this case? A considerable area of the land had been taken up. The Land Commission went to two men, one of them in the townland of Derrowel—a man caled Thomas Higgins, who has 22a. 1r. 20p. in the townland of Derrowel, and a poor law valuation of £7 5s. 0d.—and they asked him if he would sign what he thought was a purchase agreement— the Parliamentary Secretary says that they did not ask him to sign a purchase agreement but to sign an undertaking of his willingness to migrate— and they pointed out to him a holding immediately adjoining him which they were going to give him.
Now, at the same time, in a neighbouring townland—the townland of Coolaghbaun—exactly the same procedure was adopted with reference to a man named James Lavin who had 17a. 2r. 8p. of land and a poor law valuation of £8 10s. 0d. These men considered, when they had signed agreements to migrate, or their willingness to migrate, and when lands had been pointed out to them just beside their very doors, so to speak, to which they were to be migrated, that they would get these lands; and unless it was the original intention of the Land Commission to do so, when they were asked to sign their intentions to migrate to these holdings, when the holdings were pointed out to them, I do not know why the lands were pointed out to them. It must have been the intention of the Land Commission to migrate them, and that would have been right and proper; but they did not. Instead of that, they gave these lands to unmarried men who had no land at all and who were free to go off and sell that land in the morning. When I raised that question of the adjournment the Parliamentary Secretary said that a man called Biesty, who has got land, was a workman on the land before it had been acquired. I challenged that statement then, but I have since discovered the fact. Biesty himself has written to me stating that he was a workman and I accept his word that he was a workman on the land. Therefore, so far as he is concerned, the giving of land to him does not seem to be objectionable.
Also, on the adjournment motion, I laid down the general principle that I thought if men lost their work by land being broken up that they should get land as compensation. But there were three young, unmarried men who had no claims. One of them, as I pointed out in that debate, had been secretary of a co-operative society and then he had done some clerical work in Castlebar in the county council office. He had no experience of land. I wonder was it due to political influence that that supporter of the Government, as of course he was, suddenly received this holding of land? Then these other two men received holdings of land also—unmarried men with no title to land at all. They were free to put their holdings up for sale by auction in the morning and get considerable sums, to the detriment of the two bona fide farmers who had been shown the land to begin with.
I mentioned in that debate that there were three townlands affected— Derrowel, Coolaghbaun and Knocknakill. The Parliamentary Secretary read out all the valuations of Knocknakill and they ran from £15 to £18 or thereabouts and he thought he had achieved a great triumph. But what I had stated was not that the people of Knocknakill had not got a very fair area of land in extent, but that Knocknakill was not arable land and these people were not able, in their holdings in Knocknakill, to get enough land to till. They always had been in the habit of taking conacre land outside and at least half of their total tillage was done on conacre land and, therefore, though they did not expect very large areas, they did hope for a few areas of arable land to balance the amount of non-arable land they had upon their holdings. The Parliamentary Secretary said they were not in a congested area because their holdings had valuations of £15 to £18. I never said they were a congested area.
The Parliamentary Secretary came along with the Knocknakill poor law valuations, but he forgot to bring down the poor law valuations of the three other townlands in the neighbourhood. I have here, certified by the secretary of the Mayo County Council, the areas and poor law valuations of these holdings and I will leave the House, even the Fianna Fáil Deputies, to decide, when they have heard some of the figures that I will read out, whether these lands should be utilised for the relief of congestion or whether these three unmarried men, who never worked before on the land, who never had land of their own, should have been given holdings. I will give particulars first in relation to the townland of Derrowel More:—James Commons, 8a. 3r. 5p., poor law valuation on land, £3; Martin Reilly, 22 acres, poor law valuation, £2 10s. 0d.; Martin Loftus, 10a. 3r. 25p., poor law valuation, £4 10s. 0d.; Thomas Higgins—this is the man who is to be moved—22a. 1r. 20p., poor law valuation, £7 5s. 0d.; John Boyle, 23a. 3r. 25p., poor law valuation, £8 5s. 0d.; Thomas Shannon, 21a. 1r. 15p., poor law valuation, £7 15s. 0d.; William Commons, 19a. 2r. 25p., poor law valuation, £7 10s. 0d.; Bridget Toole, 1a. 2r., poor law valuation, 6/-; and Catherine Commons, 17a. 3r. 39p., poor law valuation, £8 3s. 0d.
Was it not an obvious thing that somebody should be taken out of that townland, and that the congestion should be relieved? What the Land Commission had intended doing was to take out Thomas Higgins, giving him this holding which they afterwards gave to the landless men with no claims. They intended taking him out and letting his 22 acres be divided between the people with the £2 10s. and £3 holdings. Did they do that? Not at all. That is all upset. I would like to know what was the cause of it being upset.
Take the town of Coolaghbaun. There we have John Brett, 55a. 3r. 35p., poor law valuation on land, £25; James Lavan,— the man who was to be moved —17a. 2r. 8p., poor law valuation, £8 10s.; Michael Morley, 17a. 1r. 20p., poor law valuation, £8 10s.; John Flanagan, 13a. 3r. 17p., poor law valuation, £5 12s.; and Martin Sheridan, 7a. 0r. 36p., poor law valuation, £3. Again, was it not an obvious thing that those two persons, Flanagan and Sheridan, were persons who should receive additions when land was available adjoining their holdings? There is another village adjoining, the village of Facefield. There are a number of people in Facefield, and I might as well read out the valuations in the townland. I will just give you some of the holdings that unquestionably require enlargement:—Patrick Gannon, 14a. 2r. 37p., poor law valuation, £6 1s.; Martin Sheridan, 9a. 1r. 6p., poor law valuation, £4; Edward Murphy, 9a. 0r. 2p., poor law valuation, £4 5s.; Michael Fallon, 12a., poor law valuation, £4 8s.; and Bridget Forde, with two denominations, 6a. 3r. 10p. and 13a. 2r. 20p., having poor law valuations of £2 10s. and £5 5s., making a total valuation of £7 15s. Then there is Michael Griffin, 15a. 3r. 25p., poor law valuation, £6 10s., and James Malley Owen, 7a. 3r. 20p., poor law valuation, £4 10s.
Is it not as plain as anything can be that this farm was situated in a very congested area? Those figures which I have now given to the House, figures which were not given in the adjourment debate by the Parliamentary Secretary show that this farm was situated in an area in which there is a very considerable amount of congestion, and that however you may balance the claims of the congests as against the claims of men who were working upon the land, however you may balance the equity of this work, there is one thing as clear as anything can be and that is that if the spirit of the law is to be carried out, if the law is to be administered as this House laid down that it was to be administered and if the main function of the Land Acts is to relieve congestion then this thing is inequitable. It is an absolute certainty that this congestion exists in this neighbourhood. That state of congestion I have demonstrated to the House by the figures which I have given. If three men with no claims under the sun to land are to be given holdings of land in that area then I say that is entirely inequitable. I want to know what explanation the Minister is going to give to this House for his action. After all, whether the Minister is going to whether he does not interfere, we will, I suppose and hope, get from him a very clear definite statement. When the matter is over he must, I submit, obtain from the Land Commission officials a clear and definite explanation as to why these extraordinary things are being done. He must obtain a definite statement as to why it is that these persons have been selected to get land; how it is that doctors are getting land and how it is that national teachers can get land; how it is that men with no claims at all can get land, and that the claimants with real claims, genuine congests, are to be entirely disregarded.
We must bear in mind that this is not a temporary matter. We must bear in mind that the arrangement as far as the small holders are concerned is practically final. We must bear in mind that the amount of land which is available for the relief of congestion is getting smaller and smaller every day. We must bear in mind that really the amount of available land— what is called grazing ranches—has now almost gone. These ranches have certainly gone in Mayo and I might say all over Connacht. The Minister's opening statement shows that the large ranch is no longer available for distribution and that you must come down to the small places. Therefore, the chances of persons having congested holdings getting enlargements of those holdings is getting smaller and smaller every day. Here you see persons living on congested holdings; you see a farm of land to be broken up and you know that that is the last chance these congests in the neighbourhood have of getting their holdings enlarged. On the other hand, you see persons with no claims under the sun; persons who are not migrants or owners of land but absolute strangers are chosen and put in to enjoy that land that should be given to the congests I have named. These people realise that they have no chance of ever having the congestion under which they live remedied if it is not remedied now.
Is it not surprising, therefore, that these people in desperation should take certain measures to have this scheme broken up? I deprecate and I always will deprecate anything approaching violence. I deprecate and not only do I deprecate but I condemn violence or extra legal action as strongly as I can. But I do think we must always recognise what human nature is and we must always recognise that there is a danger of violence in districts where the people's sense of justice or their sense of fair play is violated. That is precisely what took place in this area of Balla. The Parliamentary Secretary says he has no power to deal with the matter and no power to make recommendations but he should just send back to the Land Commission a suggestion that it was his view that the Land Commission ought to change this very inequitable arrangement. As far as I have been able to gather, though that debate took place some little time ago, no steps have yet been taken to change this very inequitable arrangement. I want a clear and definite statement from the Minister on this matter now. Is the Land Commission going to carry out its first intention and are these two men—Higgins and Lavelle—going to get the holdings that were originally pointed out to them? Is the land which they were going to surrender going to be made available for the relief of persons who have small holdings in the vicinity? I want further to ask the Minister if these holdings are to be given to men who have no claim to them at all? These two men were told they were to be given the holdings that were pointed out to them? Then there was a third holding. Will the Land Commission undertake that that third holding will be given to somebody out of one of these adjoining townlands of which I have given particulars to the Minister? Will the land which these men thus surrender, in order that they may be given a holding in exchange, be distributed amongst their neighbours for the relief of existing congestion?
I now pass away from that particular branch of the subject to another matter to which I would like to draw the attention of the House: that is, the execution by way of distress under a particular section of the Land Act of 1933, instead of proceeding in court for the recovery of the land annuities. Nothing has done more harm to this country, nothing has created more disturbance and let to more violence than that senseless method of dispensing with the courts and with court procedure, and the sending down of what were distress warrants to the sheriff. These sheriffs come and make seizures without the intervention of the courts, depriving the persons who are not able to pay their annuities of the opportunity of making their case to the district justice or the circuit judge, as the case may be, the case that they were bona fide unable to pay, and thus have an opportunity of being given time. That procedure has led to a tremendous amount of disturbance. I sincerely hope that in his reply the Minister will tell us that the bad practice of the Land Commission is going to terminate, and that the Land Commission will never again put in force those powers.
There is another matter in that connection to which I would point. It is a matter within my own knowledge. I refer to the fees which the sheriffs are charging. They are charging the fees that the sheriffs would charge in ordinary seizures when they go to a man's house to levy a distress warrant. They are not entitled to do so. In the case of Halpin v. the Land Commission, heard here some months ago by Judge Johnston, it was decided that the sheriff who seizes goods under a warrant from the Land Commission is not entitled to charge the fees which he would charge if he were seizing under an order of the court. It was decided that the only sum he is entitled to recover is the sum of 2/- for making the seizure and 1/- for sending out the notice. That is the law as laid down by Judge Johnston. It has not been appealed from, and I do not think it is going to be questioned. That is the decision in Halpin v. the Attorney-General. If the Minister wishes to see the reference he will find it reported in the Irish Law Times report of last December. In fact, I know of my own knowledge that sheriffs are charging very much larger fees. I came upon a case the other day where the sheriff was entitled to charge 2/- and 1/- for the notice, that is 3/- in all. As a matter of fact, he demanded £2. That particular case may go into court, and I will not say anything further about it. What has happened in one case may have happened in a great number of other cases.
I put this question to the Minister and I should like a definite reply from him. In cases where the sheriff has charged fees which he is not entitled to charge, that is to say, when levying distresses under these warrants the sheriff has charged sums going up to pounds on occasions where he was only entitled to charge 2/-, will the Land Commission refund these sums to the persons who have been thus grossly overcharged? I know the Minister may say that the Land Commission do not actually get the sums, that the sheriff's bailiff gets the sums and puts them in his pocket. But they are sums illegally charged and being illegally charged at the suit of the Land Commission. I put it to the Minister that he should have all these returns carefully investigated and, wherever an overcharge has been made, he should communicate with the person overcharged. In common justice towards these people, as a huge number of them do not know their rights, he should tell them when an overcharge has been made that they should apply to the sheriff. As all these warrants have been sent out under the aegis of the Land Commission, if the money is not recoverable from the sheriff, will he take steps, without putting these persons to the necessity of legal proceedings, to see that either the sheriff makes a refund or that a refund is made by the Land Commission?
Very large sums have been extorted from people wrongly, probably in the case of the sheriff under a mistake, before the Halpin case. I suggest to the Minister that between the State and the subject there ought to be fair play; that the State, when it has overcharged and taken from subjects moneys that were not due by the subjects to the State, should not be looking for excuses for not returning the money. The State ought be more than anxious to return those moneys, so that nobody will have a sense of injustice, and it will be known that the State is anxious to deal fairly with its citizens, and not that there is a Government Department taking from people considerable sums of money wrongly, and, when they discover that they have taken them wrongly, not being willing and anxious to return them.
There are certain details in this Vote which I should like to go into, but I do not like to detain the House at too great length. There is, however, one thing I should have liked the Minister to refer to in his speech, but to which he did not make reference. One of the most useful bits of work which the Land Commission are doing is the work originated by Deputy Roddy when he was Parliamentary Secretary, about 1930 or thereabouts, and that was giving persons in the Gaeltacht sums of money for the reclamation of their own land. That is far and away better than giving them unemployment assistance. Money given to people on the assumption that they will do nothing is completely wasted. But if, instead of giving a man 5/- or 6/- a week unemployment assistance, you give him that money for doing work such as has been and is being done to a small extent upon small holdings in the Gaeltacht, I think you will be doing excellent work. There was a very interesting article on that in the journal of the Department of Agriculture recently on this subject. It is very excellent work, and I sincerely hope that for cutting drains on their land, liming their land and generally improving their own land, the Land Commission will give them considerably more help than they are giving at present.