Committee on Finance. - Vote 56—Gaeitacht Services. – Dáil Éireann (8th Dáil) – Thursday, 7 May 1936

Committee on Finance. - Vote 56—Gaeitacht Services.

Minister for Education (Mr. Derrig)

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh that £44,504 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun loctha an Mhuirir a thíocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1937, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Seirbhísí na Gaeltachtá, maraon le Deontaisí um Thógáil Tithe.

That a sum not exceeding £44,504 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1937, for the Salaries and Expenses in connection with Gaeltacht Services, including Housing Grants.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Connolly)

The total net Estimate for the year ending 31st March, 1937, amounts to £82,204. The Estimate shows a slight decrease on the figure for last year, but it will be observed that the gross expenditure estimated exceeds the figure for the previous year by over £6,000, or, if the economy effected by reorganisation of the administration is left out of the account, by over £7,600. This extra expenditure is divided between the rural industries, the marine products and the housing services of the Department. It will be noted also that in our estimated receipts from Appropriations-in-Aid the return anticipated from net sales of products of rural industries is put down at £26,000 after deduction of wages to workers estimated at £12,000 and other payments amounting to £2,000. In other words, we are reckoning on gross receipts from the rural industries of £40,000. These figures, which show a substantial increase on former years are based on the prospects indicated by our trading experience up to the end of last year.

I shall now deal with the various sub-heads of the Vote in detail. Sub-head A covers the salaries of the administrative staff other than that directly concerned with the housing section of the Department. There is a substantial reduction (£1,294) on the amount voted last year following upon reorganisation of the staff. This reorganisation and the resultant reduction so far from hindering the work of the Department has resulted in a greatly improved position as regards our work and efficiency. Sub-heads B and C, relating to headquarters travelling and incidental expenses, show reductions amounting to £355, and have been estimated with due regard to future activities and in the light of our experience in previous years.

Rural Industries.—Sub-head D (1), which relates entirely to the salaries of technical staff engaged on the production side of the rural industries, shows an increase of £431, mainly due to the appointment of a production manager, an organising officer and additional weaving charge-hand assistants, but partly offset by a reduction in the number of manageresses provided for. Last year provision was made for six centres which we had hoped to reopen and for which manageresses would be required. It has been found possible to re-employ three of these. At the start of the last financial year 23 centres were operating, one of these was closed down and one merged with an adjoining centre. Six were opened or re-opened, so that at the end of the financial year there were 27 centres in production. In addition to these we were successful in securing local groups to operate four others that had been closed down, and I am hopeful that these will continue to prosper.

Additional centres were not opened for the weaving industry, but three assistant charge-hands were employed to help in the work of the Kilcar centre and to oversee the operations of weavers working in the Ardara and Glencolumbkille districts. The output and development of the weaving industry has been particularly gratifying and has exceeded our expectations. Our designs and ranges of quality have been welcomed by the trade, and I am satisfied that we can look forward now to further expansion and that it may soon be possible to open some new centres for the production of tweeds or other lines of weaving.

Sub-head D (2), for assistance to convent classes, shows a reduction of £80 due to the occurrence of a vacancy in one convent, which it is not proposed to fill. Sub-head D (3), for domestic instruction, shows an increase of approximately £50, due to the placing of the domestic economy instructress, whose services are well known to Western Deputies, on a scale appropriate to her services to the poor of the Western Gaeltacht. Sub-head D (4), for travelling expenses, shows an increase of £100, due to provision for additional travelling expenditure by the production manager, organising officer, and by manageresses who are brought to the marketing depot for "refresher" training courses. Sub-head D (5) covers the cost of the renewal and replacement of machines based on a scheme spread over a number of years, allowance being made for extra requirements consequent on improvement of types.

Sub-head D (6) provides for the purchase of yarn and manufacturing materials and shows an increase of £1,500 on the amount allotted last year. Due regard was given to existing stocks of approximately two months' supply of current ranges of yarns, an anticipated growth in the demand for our products and the possibility of higher prices. Sub-head D (7), for general expenses in connection with production, shows a decrease of £300, due to the pruning of requirements and certain economies, but full provision was made for our probable commitments.

Marine Products Industries.—Sub-head E (1), for salaries of outdoor officers engaged in connection with the marine products industries, shows a decrease of £170, due to the institution of revised arrangements and the decision that the short period of pressure in connection with the purchase of kelp could best be met by a temporary alteration in the duties of existing experienced staff. Sub-head E (2), for travelling expenses, shows a reduction of cost for the same reason.

Kelp.—Sub-head E (3) for kelp and other seaweed, other than carrageen, shows an increased expenditure under all items referring to current purchases and expenses incidental thereto, while last year's provision for expenses relating to purchases prior to 1934-35 ceases, owing to the fact that all such stocks have been realised. We are basing our purchase of kelp on 2,500 tons from winter weed at an average of £3 per ton. Transport, storage, shipping charges, and other incidental expenses account for the balance of this item and are based on our experience of past years. Whilst we are prepared to purchase this 2,500 tons of kelp at the price mentioned, I regret to have to report that the position as regards the iodine market remains much the same as last year, and at the moment there seems little hope of an improvement. I feel, however, that it is desirable to try to keep this industry alive by having the Department purchase the product of the winter weed. We estimate that the price which can probably be realised for its sale for iodine production will approximately cover the price paid to the gatherers, leaving the State to bear all the expenses incidental to the purchasing and marketing arrangements (shipping, storage, and the like). It is reckoned that under these heads the deficit to be met will be approximately £3,500.

We have been considering all possible alternative uses for seaweed. As a fertiliser, the question of the price at which it could be sold to the user is of first importance, and our efforts in that direction hold out little hope of success. We have also been investigating the possibility of a market for ground kelp as an admixture for cattle foods. There is a prospect of an outlet in this direction for a limited quantity.

Carrageen.—Under sub-head E (4) provision is made for the purchase of carrageen for packing and marketing for food purposes, and it will be noted that there is a reduction in this Estimate of £615 from last year's figure. This reduction is not, I am glad to say, due to a falling off in either purchases or prices of carrageen from the gatherers. On the contrary, the position in regard to both is satisfactory. Last year arrangements were made for the purchase of carrageen by the appointment of a commercial buyer in the business, whose conditions of appointment were that all operations, purchases, prices, etc., were subject to the scrutiny and check of the Department, the Department reserving to itself the right to go into the market at any time if it was felt that the rather stringent conditions under which the buyer was to operate were not being faithfully carried out.

I am glad to say that the scheme is working out satisfactorily. Over £3,000 worth of carrageen was purchased by this buyer during the year, and the prices to the gatherers have not only been maintained but are actually on the average 15 per cent. higher than in the previous year. The economy to the Department in so operating will be obvious. Under the present method our only expenditure in regard to administration of the commercial carrageen is that involved in keeping an inspector on the work, whilst the results to the gatherers are even better than they were in the past. Moreover, we still exercise the necessary and desirable control of the industry, and are able to ensure that the gatherers are fully protected against exploitation.

Central Marketing Depot.—Subhead F (1) covers the salaries of staff engaged in the work of the marketing depot, and shows an increase of £560, due to the creation of subordinate posts found necessary for the efficient receipt and despatch of goods and the proper handling and care of stocks. A commercial manager has replaced the civil servant who was acting as manager, and the latter has returned to his normal duties. Sub-head F (2) provides £550 for advertising costs, and is a reduction of £240 on last year's Vote. This does not mean that advertising on an appropriate scale will not be carried out, but merely that we are acting with close discrimination and care on what is justified and what is, in our opinion, most productive of results. Sub-head F (3) shows an increase for general expenses, due to improved demands for our products and increased activities in the rural industries. In order to effect more efficient deliveries and to expedite transport of goods to and from certain of our more important centres in remote areas as occasion requires, it has been decided to purchase a motor delivery van. I may say that will be mainly used in the weaving industry in Donegal, and then for service in the city here. Sub-head G provides for possible loans for industrial purposes, and is approximately at the same figure as last year. Items (1), (2) and (3) are nominal, and call for no special comment. Item (4) is provided in the Vote in case the occasion should arise whereby a suitable industry requiring a small amount of loan capital could be facilitated.

Sub-head H (1) for salaries shows an increase of £668 as a result of the appointment of additional assistant housing surveyors for the purpose of speeding up inspection of applications and inducing grantees to complete the work necessary for the issue of funds. Sub-head H (2) for travelling expenses shows a decrease of £600 which it has been possible to effect notwithstanding the increase in travelling staff owing to the adoption of a scheme of fixed periodical allowances for travelling instead of mileage rates as heretofore in force. Sub-head H (3) provides for an additional £5,000 for housing grants, bringing the Vote up to £50,000. Last year the actual expenditure was approximately £44,000 on an estimate of £45,000, and it is hoped and expected that, with the additional surveying staff now recruited, we will be in a position to spend at least £50,000 this year in the erection, improvement and extension of dwelling houses etc., in Gaeltacht areas.

Appropriations-in-Aid.—The Appropriations-in-Aid are estimated to produce £36,200 net. I have already referred to item 1, which is estimated to realise a net £26,000 after providing for £12,000 for workers wages and £2,000 for sales commission and other charges. Last year we estimated for a net cash return of £17,000 after payment of £6,000 in wages to the workers. I am glad to be able to say that actually our wages to the workers amounted to nearly £10,000, and our gross receipts were almost £35,500. Item 2, for kelp and seaweed provides for a cash return of £7,800, which is based approximately on the proposed purchase of 2,500 tons at £3 per ton. It bears no relation to the provision for last year as that year dealt largely with estimates of the amount to be realised on old stocks of kelp. I may mention that we are now very doubtful as to whether there will be that much kelp available for purchase this year. In any case if it is, we are in a position to purchase it.

Item 3 provides for a cash return from the sale of packed carrageen for food purposes which does not vary much from that of last year. Item 4 for loan repayments shows an increase on the provision for last year. I am glad to say that repayments during the last year have on the whole been satisfactory, and exceeded anticipations. Items 5 and 6 refer respectively to receipts from rentals from teachers' residences and miscellaneous receipts, and call for no special comment.

I have summarised as briefly as possible the details of the work of the Department, and whilst I feel that we are only now on a basis which will permit of healthy expansion, I am satisfied with the work that has been done during the year. In my statement on the Estimates last year I referred to the state in which I found various sections of the Department. I do not propose to go into that again except to say that the reorganisation is practically complete, and that we have in all our various activities got things into reasonably good shape, and I am hopeful that from now onwards we will go on progressing. Our old stocks have been mostly cleared off and production has been developed to cater properly for the known requirements of customers. The utmost care is being exercised in the purchase of raw materials and in the production of the right goods for the buyers, and general satisfaction is being expressed by the latter in the improvements both in goods and in service, and is reflected in the increased turnover that the rural industries are experiencing.

The work of reorganisation has been extremely difficult, but I believe the work of the Department has been put on a firm basis. Many necessary economies have been effected whilst, at the same time, the position of the workers engaged has been improved by the greater prospect of continuity of employment. Apart from the rural industries there have been special efforts made to expedite all the work of the housing branch, and as the Estimate indicates, we hope to accelerate still more during the coming year. Last year I indicated that I hoped to have commercial accounts prepared for trading activities, so that Deputies and others could see the position and know to what extent the State had to assist the continuance of these branches Stocktaking was carried out at the beginning and end of last year. The accounts are in course of preparation and will be laid on the Table of the House after the auditors have passed them.

I also stressed the fact that the most important matter for the people of the Gaeltacht was to have the maximum amount of attention directed by all Departments to the special needs of the Gaeltacht areas. During the year we have had the full co-operation of all the other Departments in an InterDepartmental Committee and I am glad to be able to express my own and the Department's appreciation of their help.

In conclusion, I would state that I have good grounds for believing that, now that reorganisation is practically completed, the Department will go on expanding with increased efficiency and increased benefits to the people of the Gaeltacht.

Mr. Dockrell

In rising to make a few remarks on this Estimate I would like to approach it, purely, from a business point of view; to examine it from that point of view which the Minister appears to agree to, because he says he is having commercial accounts prepared which will be laid on the Table for the information of members. But, as the Government are increasing their commercial activities in various directions, they ought to be very careful, where they are running commercial concerns, that they are run on commercial lines, and that they are not claiming special privileges, which ordinary commercial people would not be able to avail themselves of, in adopting methods to avoid criticism which would not be allowed.

Now, approaching this Estimate purely from a business point of view, let us imagine the Minister as the director of a company, if one may do that, presenting the accounts to the shareholders at their annual meeting. I suppose that analogy is not too far fetched on the present occasion, but if you do attempt to apply that analogy I am afraid it reduces the consideration of this Estimate to a farce. Now, imagine the chairman of a company saying to the shareholders who are examining the accounts: "Well, to tell you the truth, gentlemen, for the second time in the last few years we have not got the accounts ready; the stocks are not available for the year and the accounts are not audited, but, however, that does not really matter, because no matter what you say to me it will not produce any effect." I am in the position of having to criticise these accounts, of which I do not know what the stock was at the beginning of the year and neither do I know what the stock was at the end of the year. That is not my fault, because on the 1st April last—I quote from Vol. 61, column 680, of the Dáil Debates—I addressed the following question to the Minister for Lands:

Mr. Dockrell asked the Minister for Lands if he will state what is the value of the stock on hands of goods manufactured by the rural industries at the Central Marketing Depôt on 31st March, 1935, and on 31st March, 1936.

Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for Lands (Mr. O'Grady): The stock in question on the 31st March, 1936, is at present in course of ascertainment; but if the Deputy repeats his question after the lapse of a week, the full information required will be available.

The Parliamentary Secretary was commendably modest about the stock on 31st March, 1935. Surely that has been ascertained. However, that information would not be very valuable without particulars of the stock on 31st March, 1936. As I have said, examining these accounts without the stocks at the beginning or the end of the year, one sees that sub-head D (1) amounts to £4,796; sub-head D (2) to £452; sub-head D (3) to £171; sub-head D (4) to £430; sub-head D (5)— machines and plant—to £750; sub-head D (6)—materials—£1,500; and sub-head D (7)—general expenses—to £1,410, making a total of £23,009 for rural industries. The total expenses for the Central Marketing Board amount to £4,972, making a gross total for both of £27,981.

Now, these are what I may call some of the items on the expense side of the account. When we turn to the Appropriations-in-Aid we see that for the year 1935-6 they are put down at £17,000, and receipts for 1936-7 are put down at £26,000. Opposite these two figures there is this note: "Receipts from net sales of products of rural industries after deducting payment of production wages estimated to amount to £12,000." I suppose that a person finding that the stock was not ready might be pardoned for supposing that the £12,000 was the sum for both years. However, I think the Minister has stated that the payment for wages for 1935-6—he will correct me if I am wrong —amounted to £10,000. If you add the £10,000 to the £27,981, or call it £28,000, it amounts to a total expenditure on the expense side of, roughly, £38,000. There are some general expenses which, in a business establishment, would have to be added. I do not know what the Minister would like to add for them, but suppose, for the sake of argument, you put on 10 per cent., that would amount to £3,800, and that would bring the total to £41,800, or call it £42,000, on the expense side. On the other side of the balance sheet you have £17,000, from which has been deducted £10,000 for workers' wages. That amounts to £27,000—gross sales. The position is, therefore, looking at it in a very rough and ready way from a commercial point of view, that £42,000 has had to be expended to produce sales of £27,000. If you look at it in the way in which the Minister appears to look at it, and I suppose the way we all look at it, namely that this is an industry which is run for whatever benefit the Gaeltacht people can get out of it, you will find that they have got £10,000 in wages out of this sum, and in order to get that the country has had to put up £42,000. In other words, they have only got 5/- out of every pound that the country has put up.

When you consider this from the commercial point of view, some very extraordinary things transpire. I understand that so eager was this Department to get their stock taken that the Depot was closed for a week, and that it was like a beleagured city. People who wanted supplies could not get them for over a week because stock was being taken. Imagine walking down Grafton Street and seeing on one of the large drapery establishments a notice board saying: "This establishment is closed for one week while stock is being taken." If you saw that I believe it would not be very long until it would be replaced by a "to let" notice board. I do not think anybody could carry on a business on those lines. I think the Government are suffering from a difficulty as to the lines on which they will run these rural industries. When it was a very small question and a very small amount of work was being carried out it was possibly on right lines, but when it has been extended I am afraid one is faced with the parting of the ways, and the Department will have to make up their minds as to whether they are going to go on with the hand-loom system, or whether they are going to change over completely.

I should like to offer to the Minister the following criticisms: I do not know whether or not he will agree with them all, and possibly it does not necessarily follow that they are all absolutely correct. At the same time it is very clearly revealed that there is a difficult problem to be faced in connection with this industry. I understand that the designs and colourings are not up-to-date, and, with the exception of a few prints, are not changed often enough. The consumption of hand-loom tweed is not likely to increase to any great extent for the following reasons: The prices are too high for the popular trade by comparison with machine-loom tweeds; hand-loom tweeds are made in half the width of machine-loom tweeds, and that is uneconomical and much more difficult for the average tailor or dressmaker to make up; the Gaeltacht hand-loom tweeds are no longer homespuns, as large quantities of imported yarns are used. Having departed from the original intention of making genuine 100 per cent. homespuns, why not do the finer and more up-to-date weaves, and generally modernise their productions? Why not go further and try to get on to the production of more popular cloths, which will give a greater volume of business and more employment? I suggest that that is the real crux of the matter. Having started an industry which is not capable of indefinite expansion, the Government are now faced with the problem of having to establish commercial enterprises and commercial industries in the Gaeltacht.

I should like to suggest that the present policy of the Government, while it may be conferring a certain amount of benefit on the workers to whom they paid £10,000 in wages, has taken away with another hand a considerable amount of money from another section. They have partly destroyed the reputation which has been won for them by private enterprise. The ordinary manufacturers are now considering how far they can get protection from their own Government by registering trade marks that will guarantee a really up-to-date, home-made, and reliable article. I should like to suggest to the Minister that that is an excellent commentary on the present position. The Minister has protested that certain difficulties are inherent in the Department, and were there when he took it over, but he is at present continuing to run the Department on non-commercial lines. Surely there must be something wrong when they have to give to the public for 13/4 what is costing the country £1. That is the position over the whole of the Gaeltacht industries. The products are being sold at a loss of practically one-third. Surely it would be better to make up your minds that either you are going to produce up-to-date, homespun, and reliable goods, and sell those something on the lines of the Harris tweeds which are made on the other side of the water, or that you are going to leave the better end of the market to private enterprise and go in for production on your own side, which I admit would be exceedingly difficult. The Government must make up their mind on this matter, because it is absurd, year after year, to be planking down £1 and selling those goods for 13/4. The Minister protests each year that he has inherited certain difficulties, but he never seems to get away from the fundamental error that is inherent in, and underlying, the whole system on which these industries are being run. I hope that he will adequately deal with this matter in his reply, and that he will not let it drift from year to year with the feeble protest that now that the difficulties are overcome, it will be all right. If we are to judge the Government's commercial undertakings from the way this Department is run, it is obvious that more thought and more business methods must be introduced into this Department.

Mrs. Concannon

With regard to sub-head D (3) of this Vote. I should like to congratulate the Minister on the very practical way he emphasises the tribute he paid last year in introducing this Estimate, and which he repeated to-day. The item refers to the remuneration of a domestic economy instructress. Last year we were asked to vote for salary and bonus, £168, and this year the amount is £215. I feel that the House will very readily sanction this increase, and, indeed, will commend the Minister, who probably had a tough fight to wage with that hard-hearted Ministry, Finance, to get it submitted to us. The Minister, however, was nerved for the fight by his appreciation, based on personal knowledge, of the great work done by the domestic economy instructress in question, in what Pearse called the desolate regions on the edge of Ireland. He was also inspired by gratitude for what she did to overcome certain practical difficulties which arose in connection with the inauguration of the Gaeltacht colony in Meath. This lady accompanied the women colonists and acted as a sort of guardian angel to them. I am aware that guardian angels are usually represented as being of the masculine gender, but I think they are more often feminine. At least this lady is being looked on in Connemara as a guardian angel for the last 25 years.

These poor people leaving Connemara for the first time, some of them over 70, and never a stone's throw away from their native rocks, and some young mothers with babies in their arms, found the terrors of the unknown made less terrible by her company, and found that the difficulties of setting down in their new homes were overcome by her practical and cheerful help. I regret, however, that after the designation of this instructress in the book of Estimates we still find the word in brackets "unestablished." This means that, after 25 or 30 years of active service in a warfare which means as much to the nation as that which we have remunerated in other cases very generously, this lady will find herself in her declining years, when she is no longer able to continue her work, which is carried on under the most arduous conditions, without any provision. I think it unfair that this should be so. It is a national debt that is being contracted, as the Minister has almost admitted, and it is not likely that the nation will go bankrupt in such a small sum as would be necessary.

The House will perhaps understand why I feel so strongly about this matter if I say something of the circumstances under which this domestic economy instructress and her former colleagues—her former colleagues are absorbed in other services, but she is left alone—began their work, and of the spirit, as heroic and self-sacrificing as that of any missionary nun, which they brought to it, and the quality of the results they achieved. I could speak of these things of my own knowledge, but it would bring more conviction to the House if I put into the witness box a great authority, no less an authority than the late Mr. Micks, Secretary of the Congested Districts Board, who was responsible for the new departure represented by the employment of these Irish-speaking domestic economy instructresses. It is not necessary in a House like this to recapitulate the historic causes which pressed the people of the Western Gaeltacht down to—I was going to say a level of existence, but it was not a level of existence; it was a subsidence, and it was not an existence, but a sub-existence.

These causes weighed particularly heavy on women, depriving them not only of the material resources necessary for the making of a modest home, but of that domestic training and knowledge and that feminine initiative which might conceivably have replaced or evolved that. Two very enlightened officials of the late Congested Districts Board realised this, and realised also that if something were not done about it, a great deal of the work they had undertaken would be undone. The board could help people to get new houses, but it is only the trained woman who can make these houses into homes, and the women had to be shown the way. It happened that Mr. Walker, to whom I would also like to pay a great tribute, was a trustee of the Dudley Nursing Fund and in that capacity he had realised all the good that intelligent and devoted women could do. He pressed the board to give a substantial subsidy to the Dudley Nursing Scheme, and also to provide houses for the nurses. These nurses went among the people and did a tremendous lot of work, not only in nursing the sick but in teaching the woman of the house to nurse the sick, and still better, to keep the well well. They taught them principles of hygiene and proper healthy home-making, and the experiment was so successful that Mr. Micks, who had been poor law inspector in the West, thought it should be extended. He suggested that at least one domestic economy instructress should go among the people and show them how to set up their homes.

In his "History of the Congested Districts Board," he has told in a very interesting way of the success of the experiment and he pays a tribute to the domestic economy instructress, whose rise of salary, much belated, we are voting, and for whose establishment I am pleading. I would like to read it to the House. I think it should go on the records of this House as showing what one woman has done. I quote from "The History of the Congested Districts Board."

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is loath to interrupt the interesting speech of the Deputy, but she is going too far back into history. Apart from that, it is invidious to pick out and trace the career of a serving official in this House.

Mrs. Concannon

I bow to your ruling, Sir.

Micheál Óg Mac Phaidin

A Chinn Comhairle, má bhí aon áit san tír seo thar áit ar bith eile a bhí ag dréim agus ag súil go géar le tárrthail agus cabhair o'n Rialtas so, badh í an Ghaeltacht í. O'n lá a cuireadh an chead Rialtas ar bun sa tSaorstát, bhí rún daingean aca tárrthail a thabhairt go luath ar an Ghaeltacht. Chuir siad Coimisiun ar bun leis an cheist a scrúdú agus fuairmid molta o'n Choimisiun sin. Cinnte go leór rinne an chead Rialtas moran leis na molta sin a chur i ngniomh i ngnaithe oideachais agus ar shlighthibh eile; acht fagadh moran gan deanamh agus bhí moran nar Smuain an Coimisiun ariamh air. Nuair a tháinig Fianna Fáil isteach san Dáil, bhí truaighe as miosúr aca do mhuinntir na Gaeltacha, agus thug siad uchdach úr-nuadh do na daoine bochta so.

Dá mbeadh cúmhacht aca san, bheadh muilte agus monarcain agus oibreacha aca a chongbhothadh an Gaedheal gnaitheach ó Luan go Sathairn agus ó ceann go ceann na bliana. Tá cuimhne mhaith agam ar na h-oráideacha bhiodh againn ag moladh Gaedheal na Gaedhealtachta—mar chongbhnigh siad beó teanga agus béasaí agus cultoir ár sinnsir, ar dhilseacht ar a ngradh tire, ar a gcrodhacht, ar a gcneastacht, ar a gcráibhtheacht agus mar sin. Ar ndoighche ní thiochfadh leat go leór a dheanamh do'n fhir-threibh Gaedhil sin a sheas go dana i n-aghaidh Galldachais agus géir-leanamhaint Gall.

Annsin, ag an toghadh mór, gheall Fianna Fáil an domhan cruinn do mhuinntir na Gaedhealtachta. Agus chreidmid uilig go ndéanfadh an Rialtas beart do réir a mbriathar. Acht bhímid meallta agus meallta go mór. Níor coimhlionadh na geallstain a tugadh duinn. Tá an Meastachán do'n Gaedhealtacht ag fas níos lugha agus níos lugha gach uile bhlian ó tháinig Fianna Fáil i dtreis acht an breis beag atá ann i mblian. Tá mé ag éagcaoint go mór ar an Aire ar siocair an Meastacháin so bheith chomh beag. Níl lá áird ar na muilte agus na h-oibreacha. Rinneadh dearmad ortha bun barr. Agus caidé tá againn san Ghaeltacht san am i láthair? Na cainnteóirí dúthchais a bhí comh cúramach againn ag imtheacht na sluaighte go Sasain agus na sean daoine ag fleamhnughadh uainn 'n na h-uaighe. Tá náire ortha bheith ag tógail an brúdh no an "dole". Rinne seo bacaigh diobh i n-agaidh a dtóla; nó bfearr leis na Gaedhil óga obair no an "dole" leath-tromach so. Mholfainn do'n Aire tuilleadh airgid a chur i leath-thaoibh do'n Ghaeltacht má tá an Rialtas i ndáiríribh fa'n cheist seo.

Thiochfadh obair a thabhairt dóibh ar na bealaigh móra thart cóis fairrge. Níl na comhairlí conndae i nimbh iad a dheanamh mar badh choir. Béarfadh seo fhéin saothrughadh do mhorán de na fir atá ag imtheacht anonn go Sasain anois. Mar an gcéadna, thiochfad airgead a thabhairt mar duáiseanna do feirmeoiri le feabhas a chur ar a gcuid gabhaltas. Thiochfadh an talamh garbh a bhriseadh agus an talamh fluich a thiormughadh agus tuilleadh curaideachta a dheanamh san Ghaeltacht faoi scéim mar so.

Thiochfadh leis an Rialtas níos mó a dhéanamh do na cailíní óga san Ghaedhealtacht. Nach dtiochfadh leo cuideadh le deantuisí baile agus margadh d'faghail doibh? Is mór an truagh na cailíní breagha so bheith ag imtheacht anonn ar seirbhis go Sasain ag glanadh bróga Seaghain Bhuidhe, agus go minic ag obair cruiadh máslach. Tá aithne agam féin ar chailíní as an Ghaeltacht a bhain 180 márc as 200 i nGaedhilc ag scrudú na gColaisdi Ullmhnuchain agus mar nar eirigh leo scolaireacht d'fhaghail, tá siad anois ar seirbhis thall i Sasain.

Seo an mianach uasal agus an mianach luathmar atámuid ag cailleadh gach lá tá ag dul tharainn. Má maireann an imirce seo, is gairid go mbeidh an Ghaedhealtacht na thalamh bhán nó 'na fhásach fiadhain. Má's mian linn Eire Ghaelach a bheith againn, má's mian linn an teanga a leathnughadh agus a dheingnughadh ar fud na tíre, caithfidmid obair agus saothrughadh a thabhairt do mhuinntir na Gaedhealtachta san bhaile.

Mr. McMenamin

This vote also includes housing, and we had better dismiss that first by saying that that Department has done great service to the Gaeltacht districts and has been very efficient and courteous, and has tried in every possible way to meet these people in regard to the construction of houses for the last ten or 12 years. This problem that was raised by Deputy Dockrell is a serious one, and it lends itself to criticism, but criticism is barren unless there is something constructive about it. A question that does arise is this. Is there going to be a conflict between what we have known in the past as the home industries proper—that is the hand-loom cottage industries in the Gaeltacht—as distinct from the centralised manufacture of tweeds now by this Department? Deputy Dockrell is right in that sense—that it is a new departure; that the Department has completely departed from what it was in the past, and that we will have to take that into consideration in approaching this problem of rural industries. A few days ago, or within the last week, I saw that an organisation in town here has got an assurance —I take it that it is from the Department of Industry and Commerce—that they are going to get a trade mark for certain tweeds. Now, I wonder are the tweeds that are going to be manufactured by this Department and sold at Beggars' Bush to be sold under this trade mark, or will that also apply to the hand-loom products that are produced in the cottages in the Gaeltacht? Is it the policy of the Department now, seeing that they have taken up this new departure of the centralising of the manufacture of tweeds, to cut across the hand-loom industries that were carried on in the cottages of the Gaeltacht? If that is so, it means that this Department will have to go on a completely new footing, and it will have to become entirely a commercial concern run by this Department.

Hitherto, under the Congested Districts Board, and since then, the Department bought the tweeds that were made in the cottages by the hand-loom weavers in the main. Now, very important considerations arise, and I offer these statements to the Minister absolutely bona fide and in a friendly way. The Minister is aware that private enterprise is developing considerably in some of these Gaeltacht areas in regard to weaving machine work, and stuff like that. A complaint has been made to me by people who are absolutely reliable and bona fide, and who have done much for the Gaeltacht by giving employment both in the factory and in the cottages, that in the case of certain given articles, such as, for example, cheap lines of stockings and socks, the Department are putting the best merino wool into socks that are sold for about 1/- a pair, and that these people, having to compete with the private industries throughout the country that manufacture socks for sale cannot put in that quality of stuff into the socks, and that the socks are made from a mixture of cotton and wool, while this Department is producing a sock that is made of the best merino wool and selling it against them. I wonder does that apply generally? Does it apply to the tweeds and other things that are made in these factories under the management of the Department? Are they, having State funds behind them, putting in a superior quality into an article and selling it in competition with an inferior article in quality at a much lower price than its economic price? I am only discussing this from the point of view arising out of the complaint about the stockings. If it is so, I think it would be very regrettable and that ultimately it would react on the Gaeltacht districts. If we are to do anything in this we must do it absolutely bona fide. If we are putting a line on the market wholesale, for example, at about 9/-, to be retailed at 1/-, the quality that the Department put into that article should be the quality produced by private enterprise, and not a quality far superior to what private enterprise could put into the article to sell at that price. There is no doubt about that. It may be that when they complained to me it was only a particular lot that was presented to them, that somebody got a parcel from somewhere, perhaps some wholesale house. Somebody probably went in to sell the articles, and they produced this particular lot from Beggars' Bush. There may be only one lot. I do not know whether there is a practice made of it, but what I have indicated did take place. It would be unfair to allow that, because the Minister is aware that private enterprise is doing much for the Gaeltacht areas, and I would not like their financial position to be undermined by competition from the Department with regard to quality.

The thing is ridiculous. To a certain extent we are all responsible, in the sense that we are trustees. Of course, this is where the money is wasted. The labour content of the money voted in this House is reduced to the very lowest figure. There are two other sore problems in this Vote. One is really serious and the other is not so serious. The serious one has reference to kelp. I made some suggestions to the Minister last year about the utilisation of kelp for the production of artificial manure. Has anything been done in that direction? There is so much in the way of barter going on in the world that I think the Minister should do some bartering in regard to kelp. We are bartering with Germany and even with England. It occurs to me that a very considerable amount of drugs comes into this country each year, mainly from England. Why not barter kelp against drugs? The medicinal preparation, iodine, is produced in the main out of kelp and there are other by-products. We get a lot of drugs from Germany, America, England and even France. Why not barter kelp against them?

It was stated the other day that Germany will take more horses from us if we took more of their produce. They even use threats against us, and it is about time this country stiffened its upper lip. Why are the Germans entitled to claim that? Is it simply because they are a great nation? Is it a question of the mailed fist and the big gun? This bartering should be done on an equitable basis, irrespective of the sizes of the States. I would be prepared to support the Government in any attitude they may adopt, facing these people on an equitable basis. If there is trade to be done, it should be done on an equitable basis. It should not be done on an unequal basis simply because it is a big nation dealing with a small nation. Let them know we are prepared to pay £1 for £1 and if they do not want that we will deal elsewhere.

Can the Minister give us any hope with regard to kelp? Has he made any experiments that would lead to some hope? I could tell him of areas where, were it not for the Unemployment Assistance Act, the people would be absolutely destitute. There are small tracts in my constituency along the seaboard where for the kelp season they have got from £4,000 to £7,000 in the past, perhaps on a four-mile coast line. Now these people are not getting a penny for kelp. Fishing is dead and apparently the collection of carrageen is being subsidised very considerably.

A general disaster has overcome those people. The net result of that, from the physical and moral point of view, will be that after a time these people will be in the position that they will do nothing. If the Minister could give an economic price for kelp, a price that would keep the industry going, he would be doing a wise thing. I admit that there has been strong competition from the South American States in the matter of nitrate. Great Britain, having money invested in those countries, is taking its nitrate requirements from them, There again that reacts on the kelp industry. It is only in the case of another war, which nobody desires, that Great Britain will again come to buy kelp from us on any large scale. I would like to know from the Minister if he has any intention of opening up any other market for kelp. I understand that the Department is paying rent for the storage of the unsold kelp. I suggest that the Minister should unload it, even though an actual loss results. On the face of it, there is a loss in paying rent for the storage of kelp, and in addition we know that the kelp depreciates in value every year.

I heard it stated in this House, or perhaps it was outside it, in regard to the question of carrageen, that sufficient carrageen was not being gathered at present around the coast to meet the requirements of the Department, and I was told that the Department is importing French carrageen. I was rather astonished at hearing such a statement. I do not know whether it is true or untrue. I know that some carrageen lately was got in my house, and I noticed on the packets that it was described as genuine Irish carrageen. I hope for the sake of the industry that it is not true that French carrageen is imported and that it is being sold as genuine Irish carrageen.

I would like to know from the Minister what progress the Department has made in the matter of re-housing in the Gaeltacht. I know considerable inroads have been made in the solution of the housing problem in the Gaeltacht, but I know it is as yet far from being completed. I do not want to be so severe on the commercial side in the matter of this Vote as was Deputy Dockrell. After all the Gaeltacht services are run for the assistance of the congested areas, for areas that would otherwise require relief. Deputies must keep that fact in view. Of course I agree that the Minister must apply the application of commercial principles to the management of this Department so as to see (1) that there is no unnecessary waste and (2) that the maximum portion of the money voted will go in wages to the workers.

Mr. Dillon

Last year when the Minister was introducing this Estimate he had both a halo and wings on him. On that occasion when he came to reply to Deputy Dockrell the halo and the wings dropped off. He complained of what obtained when he had taken over the Department. He made an attack on certain departments connected with the Gaeltacht industry. He said he had been greatly tried in his endeavour to restore order so far as these industries were concerned. The Minister wound up his speech by saying that if he had had his way he would draw a red line around the Gaeltacht and migrate the people out of it. He gave us to understand that his attitude towards the Gaeltacht problem was to throw up his hands, cry havoc, and abandon any attempt to make continual residence in the Gaeltacht possible. I should be very glad to hear from the Minister to-night whether he has now modified that view, and whether his experience has not taught him that some of the things that struck him as incongruous when he took over the Department were not incongruous at all, and whether he had come to appreciate that certain things which at first glance appear to be farfetched, showed themselves, when closely examined, to be the only available remedies for the very peculiar ills that afflict the people of these areas.

I am inclined to think that the Minister has by this time learned that his cosmopolitan outlook in regard to the Gaeltacht is not shared by the people for whom he is supposed to be responsible. Strangely enough, the Minister will find that the people living in the Gaeltacht like the Gaeltacht. They were born there, their homes are there and they have adapted themselves to the circumstances of life there. If any assistance is vouchsafed to them, they are prepared to make an effort to eke out a livelihood in the Gaeltacht. Our business here is not to pontificate on the way these people ought to live, how they might live and where they ought to live. Our business is to make up our minds to realise that they are living in the Gaeltacht and that as many of them as choose to stick to their homesteads should have their existence made as livable as possible. There are certain people of a revolutionary turn of mind who take the view that they are much better qualified to decide how the people of the Gaeltacht are to live and what they are to do than the Gaeltacht people themselves. I do not take that view, but I do recognise that a certain duty towards helping the Gaeltacht people devolves on the people as a whole. We ought to remember that the people living in the poor lands of the Gaeltacht have done yeoman service to this country, because they are the people who have preserved the Irish language when the rest of the people living in more prosperous circumstances and under better conditions let it die out. It is extremely difficult to discuss the Gaeltacht services. There was a time when the fisheries of the Gaeltacht were matters for which the Minister for Lands was responsible. A change has been made in that arrangement, and the fisheries are now incorporated in the Department of Agriculture. A more inept arrangement it would be difficult to imagine. Anyone who understands this country recognises that one of the principal means of livelihood for the people along the western coast, and particularly in the Gaeltacht, is the fishery industry. But the fisheries have collapsed and because of that the problem of living for the people in the Gaeltacht becomes intolerable. I do not wish to trespass on matters ordinarily relevant to the Fisheries Vote, but I want to point out that the principal problem in the Gaeltacht is the providing of employment for the people over and above what they themselves can provide in their own holdings. One of the most suitable employments for people there is fishing. The House must bear in mind that in the trade agreement entered into by the Executive Council, of which the Minister was a member, no advertence apparently was taken of our fisheries. We cannot get away from this, that if the fishing is destroyed throughout the Gaeltacht, then the problem that will confront the Minister for the Gaeltacht is insoluble. The problem is somewhat different from the problem which confronts Deputy Tom Kelly as chairman of the Dublin Housing Committee. Deputy Tom Kelly comes in here and throws up his hands in despair. He tells the Minister for Local Government that if he does not like how they in the Corporation of Dublin are doing the work, then let the Minister take it up himself. The Minister for Lands in this case has no such refuge, because if he cannot solve the problem of the Gaeltacht, no one else can. The Minister and the Executive Council are the people who have been remiss in their duty in providing work for the people of the Gaeltacht. In making the trade agreement with Germany, which provided for a three-to-one system of trading, no provision was made for our exports in the form of herrings. The Minister in his capacity as a member of the Executive Council should have informed the German Reich that unless they were prepared to accept as part of that agreement our export of matjeherrings from the Donegal coast then we would not make any trade agreement with them. We could have got a very considerable slice of the German market for our west-coast fisheries.

Mr. Victory

How was it allowed to remain at 16 to 1 for so long?

Mr. Dillon

Because the ineptitude and incompetence of Fianna Fáil had not then afflicted the country and we were able to dispose of our merchandise in the natural markets to which it ordinarily went. With the hopeless incompetence of the present Government the matje herring industry has been completely destroyed. The Deputy forgets that the Minister went to Donegal with a brass band and torchlights to tell the people that all the herrings they could catch he undertook to dispose of for them, and this year, for the first year in the history of the herring fishing industry, we cannot dispose of a single tail.

I do not suppose I can make the Minister for the Gaeltacht responsible for the situation which has made that commonage for sheep worthless. Suffice it to say that the Minister and his colleagues have contrived to precipitate a situation which makes that commonage virtually worthless. They are driven back on what they can produce on their own holdings. They have the resort providentially, of going to Scotland, and that they are doing in very great numbers. Nothing that the Minister can do has been left undone to make it more difficult for them to get decent employment in Scotland, but, by the mercy of Providence, they are still able to get some work there. There are in Donegal at present, and in West Donegal, I think, over 4,000 people on the dole—not in receipt of unemployment insurance, but in receipt of unemployment assistance, and that is after hundreds and thousands have gone to Scotland to get work as migratory labourers. That is four years after the Fianna Fáil administration of the Gaeltacht began.

We remember the ringing denunciations that used to come from these Benches when Fianna Fáil occupied them, of the incapacity of the Cumann na nGaedheal Administration of Gaeltacht affairs which allowed such difficulties to continue as were operating then. I heard with amazement the Minister for Lands, when speaking in that capacity, paying the most extravagant compliments to the staff of the Land Commission. I have no doubt that had I had the privilege of listening to his introductory remarks on the Gaeltacht services I would have heard the same unctuous adulation of the officers of the Gaeltacht Department. That is the same man who made the country ring with the allegation that every responsible officer in the Land Commission, Fisheries, and every other Department, was the hack of Molesworth Street, that Freemason influence dominated every Department, that the Land Commission was in a conspiracy to keep the people in subjection, and that the Gaeltacht services were being run, not in the interests of the people, but in private interests.

I wonder is the Minister coming to realise that the very officials whom he and his colleagues denounced so vigorously were doing, under the Government that went before his, the best that could be done in face of a very difficult problem. Perhaps, he will realise now, as he ought to realise, that a much more helpful way of approaching problems of this kind is to make suggestions which would assist the Minister to overcome the difficulties that confront him in the areas in which he has to operate. Last year I made a series of suggestions to the Minister which would be calculated to help in mitigating the difficulties under which the people in that part of the country were living. So far as I am aware, no attempt was made to consider any of them on their merits, or indeed to put any of them into operation.

I am informed that it is the intention of the Minister to start an artificial silk factory at Crolly. I ask him now why it was when there was a scheme in his Department for the purpose of setting up a tie factory in Anagry and a silk factory for the weaving of poplin or other materials suitable for the manufacture of ties at Crolly, he stamped on it and did not open the factory and closed the factory at Anagry. He told us last year. I think, that all these schemes bore upon them the seal and stamp of incompetence. At least, they were an honest endeavour to get something going. We have yet to have any evidence from the Minister that he is in a position to put anything in their place. I should like to know what he proposes to substitute for the industries he determined it was necessary to close down. Last year he deplored the necessity of disemploying a number of instructresses who had been working in the various industrial centres throughout Donegal and the rest of the Gaeltacht. I would be glad to know from him now whether these instructresses have received anything by way of pension or gratuity on their retirement and, if so, how much.

Under the Gaeltacht Housing Act, for which the Minister was responsible a new principle was introduced which left a discretion in the Gaeltacht Housing Department, not to give a preference to native Irish speakers as had been the case up to then, but to exclude absolutely anybody from the benefits of the Act who could not prove that Irish was the vernacular of the household. I believe then, and still believe, that that arrangement was open to grave abuse and has resulted in material hardship. I would be glad to know from the Minister if he has any information to give the House as to how the amending Act is working. My information is that it has worked considerable hardship and has materially interfered with the success of what was one of the best schemes ever instituted by the Department of Fisheries, as it was then known, namely, the Gaeltacht housing scheme.

Last year I drew the attention of the Minister to the fact that numerous applications for grants, under the Gaeltacht housing scheme, were then in his Department. The procedure, apparently, is that you apply for a grant or loan; your proposal is examined in situ by an inspector, who reports back to the Department on the proposal. Then, there appears to intervene a period when the proposal is suspended like Mohammed's coffin— it is neither approved nor rejected. I ask the House to bear that in mind. There is then another class of case where the proposal is substantially approved, but there is no money wherewith to finance it. If one asks the Minister for the Gaeltacht how many applications there are in his Department which have been approved, but for which there is no money, he will give the figures relating only to the second category, but when he speaks of the position I described as suspended like Mohammed's coffin, he will tell you that there are no figures available to reply to a Parliamentary question. I ask the Minister now if he is in a position to tell us how many grants have been paid in the last financial year, how many sanctions have been made, how many are in the intermediate stage between examination and final sanction, and how many applications there are in his office awaiting sanction?

There ought to be no practical delay in dealing with housing applications. It has been made known to the Ministry again and again that money was forthcoming to the limit of the country's resources to provide for Gaeltacht housing. The Minister himself has repeatedly said that he considers it one of the most important functions of his Department. I would be glad to know what the details are with that class of case which I described as suspended like Mohammed's coffin.

The question has come up again and again, before the Public Accounts Committee, in regard to the disposal of purchases by the Central Disposals Board. We have repeatedly asked that a system of accounting should be set up at Beggars' Bush that would give ordinary business men an opportunity of understanding the profit and loss account in regard to these transactions. Up to date no such system has been established. We were repeatedly informed that the matter is in the hands of the Department of Finance who have a statutory right under an omnibus law to prescribe their accounting system. That may be so. The Department of Finance may stipulate certain forms of accounts that shall be established, but the Minister for Finance has no authority to prohibit the Minister in charge of the Gaeltacht prescribing for the people at Beggars' Bush an ordinary set of books, on business lines, which would enable them to present to him at the end of each financial year a profit and loss account of their transactions. I submit that that ought to be done. Until it is done no proper view can be had of how that branch of the Department's activities is carried on.

Now, we come to the question of kelp. Kelp bulks as largely in the life of the people living in the Gaeltacht as fisheries. There is an item, subhead E (3) in the Estimates, dealing with the purchase and disposal of kelp. I put it to the Minister that the price at present fixed by his Department is between £3 and £4 per ton; so I was informed by a person who has had some dealings in kelp in Galway, but I do not actually know the figure myself. I put it to the Minister that the least price that will yield a reasonable reward for labour in the kelp industry is £6 per ton. I put it to him that that figure was put up to the Department by some person whom the Minister or the Department asked to advise on the matter. I am aware the Chilean intervention has made the production of iodine from kelp uneconomic, but here we have a situation which makes that situation operate with peculiar emphasis.

The alternative to the gathering of kelp, for hundreds of people on the west coast, is idleness. There is nothing else for them to do. We should balance the cost of keeping those people in idleness, on outdoor relief plus unemployment assistance, against any loss which might accrue by paying an uneconomic price for kelp. In fact, those people, who ordinarily gather and burn kelp, will have to be maintained for part of the time on unemployment assistance and for the rest of the time on relief works. I put it to the Minister that the best work he could do for these people would be to have a guaranteed price for kelp with this proviso, that the Department would buy that kelp on the condition that it was of fine quality and that the people addressed themselves to turning it out in the best style in which kelp can be produced.

There was always the danger that kelp would deteriorate as produced by people along the Western seaboard. It was an obvious danger that people would put kelp of under quality on the market. It was even known that stones were introduced into the bulk of the kelp dishonestly. That happened only on rare occasions. I put it to the Minister it would be money well spent if he would buy kelp even at the uneconomic price of £6 a ton, turn it into iodine, and put it on the market and charge the difference up to such money as he might ask the Executive Council to provide out of Relief Votes ordinarily spent by the Board of Works. The carrageen situation has become very different under the Minister's administration from what it was. Perhaps he would give some explanation. It was pointed out at the Public Accounts Committee last year, or perhaps the statement appeared in the current report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, that the Minister bought carrageen moss in France to supply the demand made upon his Department by the Beggars' Bush board. I would ask the Minister why he found it necessary to go to an external source to meet the requirements of these people. Surely the difficulty has been to provide sufficient employment for people gathering kelp and gathering carrageen along the Irish coast. It may be that some circumstances arose that made this buying necessary, but without some further explanation it looks very odd in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General that the Minister had to go abroad for supplies when he finds it extremely difficult to employ carrageen growers in this country. I regret to say that, so far as our experience in the West of Ireland goes, the activities of the Gaeltacht Department seem to be dwindling. The hopes and courage of the people were buoyed up by extravagant promises made on behalf of other Departments, that the bogs were to be turned into gold mines and that factories were going to spring up in every direction. For the performance of these promises, the Minister, fortunately for himself, is not responsible. For the making of them his name will vigorously endure throughout the Rosses and Gweedore for a long time to come. These promises were made, as I have told the House, to the obligato of brass-band music and the flickering light of torches carried throughout the Rosses. It was easy to make the promises, and they were much appreciated when made.

Yes.

Progress reported. Committee to sit again on Friday.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 8th May, 1936.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 7 May 1936

Committee on Finance. - Vote 56—Gaeitacht Services.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Connolly)

Mr. Connolly

Mr. Connolly

Mr. Connolly

Mr. Connolly

Mr. Connolly

Mr. Connolly

Mr. Connolly

Mr. Connolly

Mr. Connolly

A Deputy

Mr. Connolly

Mr. Connolly

Mr. Connolly

Mr. Connolly

Mr. Connolly

Mr. Connolly

Mr. Connolly

Mr. Connolly

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 May 1936