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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 12 May 1936

Vol. 62 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Labourers Bill, 1935—Committee.

Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.
SECTION 3.

I move amendment No. 1:—

Before sub-section (2), to insert a new sub-section as follows:—

A person shall be an agricultural labourer within the meaning of the Principal Acts if at any time of his life he worked as an agricultural labourer and is now engaged in agricultural pursuits on his own account on land he has rented in conacre or grazing agistment.

I think that the Minister should have no difficulty in accepting this amendment, seeing that this section gives a much wider meaning to the definition of "agricultural labourer" than the Principal Acts have given up to the present. The Bill also contemplates, where estates are being divided by the Land Commission, that a parcel of land, the size of which is not defined or limited, can be given to the occupant of a labourer's cottage. If a man can be so helped by the State and remain in his cottage, I do not see why a man who has, by his own effort, climbed up a bit of the ladder and ceased to be in the narrow definition of the term an "agricultural labourer for hire"—a man who has purchased cattle or obtained conacre—should not be allowed to live in and purchase a labourer's cottage. If he has not a right to purchase it, he has not a right to be living in it. I make no special pleading on the matter, but, considering that the Bill really deals with that principle in a larger way though in a different direction, I do not see why the Minister should not take in this principle, which is really similar. It was the practice heretofore that a person with over a quarter-acre could not occupy a labourer's cottage. Henceforth, there will be no limit to the land that a man may legally own and still reside in a labourer's cottage. Why should not a man who has taken conacre be permitted to be the occupant and purchaser of a labourer's cottage?

I think the amendment is unnecessary. If the Deputy will look up my amendment to Section 16—amendment No. 9—he will see that what he proposes is covered. The only difference is that Deputy Belton does not make clear in his amendment that the person he refers to is now a tenant of a cottage. If he is now a tenant of a cottage, and if he was an agricultural labourer when he first occupied the cottage, he will have the right, when the Bill is passed, to become a purchaser.

What sub-section of your amendment covers that?

At present, the Deputy knows that the term "agricultural labourer" has a very wide meaning. It covers persons who do agricultural work for hire at any season of the year in any area, urban or rural. Sub-section 2 (a) of the amendment refers to "a person (i) who is the tenant of such cottage, and (ii) who either is an agricultural labourer or was, when he first became tenant, an agricultural labourer." Would not that cover what the Deputy has in mind?

No. My amendment refers to a man who was an agricultural labourer but who, before he became the tenant of a cottage, had been taking conacre and was making his living by working conacre.

He was not then in a labourer's cottage?

I do not know that we could stretch the provision so widely as that. If the term "agricultural labourer" were to cover persons who were not agricultural labourers, when they became tenants, it would be stretching its meaning very widely. At present it excludes practically nobody who, when he became a tenant, was an agricultural labourer. The amendment might make for hardship on cottiers. You might have people who were never agricultural labourers coming along and purchasing those cottages over the heads of others who were.

According to the Bill, a person is to be deemed an agricultural labourer within the meaning of the Principal Acts if, at any time of his life, he has worked as an agricultural labourer.

Yes. It happens that many agricultural labourers save a bit of money, take conacre in grass or tillage, and after a time are able to occupy themselves entirely on their own account. Would it not be a hardship not to give such a man a labourer's cottage? Having given it to him, would it not be a greater hardship not to give him facilities to buy it, especially since the State, under this Bill, can give the occupant of a labourer's cottage a parcel of land at its own expense? If the Minister is not prepared to accept the amendment now, I ask him to consider it before the Report Stage.

I am afraid it would widen the provision too much.

Not as much as the Bill widens it now.

There is surely nothing in the Bill that would suggest disturbance of a man of the type suggested by Deputy Belton, if he is in occupation at the moment. If he began as an agricultural labourer, improved his position, and is in occupation of a cottage before this Bill becomes operative, there is nothing in the Bill to debar him from purchasing.

If that is so, the introduction of new matter would only make the Bill more vague and open up a position which might lead to possibilities which are not contemplated. I do not think that there is anything to prevent that man proceeding with the purchase of his cottage provided he is now in occupation. It would certainly be very undesirable to have such people excluded. I think there is nothing to debar them from participating.

I submit that there is nothing in the Bill to give such a man status in a cottage. I ask the Minister or any Deputy to point out under the Bill why such a man could not purchase or remain in a cottage.

Can the Minister say if Section 3 (1) would meet the point raised by Deputy Belton?

Arising out of Deputy Belton's remarks, I would like to clarify the position of occupants of labourers' cottages who were never working at agriculture, in the sense expressed, because in the rural areas tradesmen are entitled to be in occupation of these cottages since the definition "agricultural labourer" covers postmen, tradesmen and people of that type. I have no fear that any attempt will be made to evict or disturb such tenants. I cannot visualise any labourers, even those that Deputy Belton spoke of, being disturbed or prevented from having the right to occupy cottages.

There is no need for the amendment so, if such a type of tenant is entitled to purchase. I cannot see in the Bill how a man who was what might be called a conacre holder and occupying a cottage could do so. This Bill does not provide for the purchase by such tenants. If it does, I am satisfied.

Under Deputy Belton's amendment to Section 16 the position will be made perfectly clear, while if his amendment, in its present form is accepted it may lead to abuse. It is a question where the line is to be drawn. If a farm labourer gets into the position visualised by Deputy Belton money is provided by the State to enable him to build a house of his own.

That is right.

The tenant will not be worse off, as he will get a better house and there will be very little difference in the amount he will have to pay.

I take it that Deputy Belton by his amendment is satisfied that a person must be a tenant and be in residence in a cottage. He does not want to include people who are not now tenants of cottages?

I think it should include such applicants for cottages, and that if farm labourers get parcels of land from the Land Commission the type of people mentioned in the amendment should be entitled to become applicants for these cottages.

This is not a question dealing with applicants for labourers' cottages. It relates to the purchase of cottages by those who are at present in occupation of them. Deputy Belton has in mind a future date, at which cottages might be built, when persons who are not now agricultural labourers could apply for them and, who to all intents and purposes are farmers?

I do not know what these types of persons would be called. They hold land, perhaps in conacre, and do not work for hire any longer. They are not agricultural labourers, and Deputy Belton will not call them farmers. What are they?

Sky farmers.

The definition "agricultural labourer" is pretty wide at present. In many cases boards of health have given cottages to such people. There are already conditions in the Housing Acts enabling very generous grants to be given to such people to build houses for themselves. They can get up to £80 for the building of houses. Why should they claim labourers' cottages? However, that is getting into another aspect of the question, and I do not think that is what Deputy Belton has in mind. I am inclined to think that what the Deputy wants to achieve can be done under the Bill as it stands. I will look into it.

I am satisfied.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 3, 4 and 5 agreed to.
SECTION 6.

I move amendment No. 2:—

Before Section 6 to insert the following new section:—

(1) Where by process of law or in pursuance of an order made under statutory authority a cottage the ownership of which was transferred from a rural district council, a county council or a board of health to an urban district council, a borough council or to the council of a county borough (in this Act referred to as the "urban authority") and such cottage is at the commencement of this Act vested in an urban authority the following provisions shall have effect, that is to say, not later than six months after the appointed day such urban authority shall in relation to every such cottage which is not situated on State lands, prepare and submit to the Minister in accordance with this Act a purchase scheme.

(2) For the purpose of this section the provisions of this Act relating to the preparation and submission to the Minister of a purchase scheme under Section 12 of this Act and prescribing the powers and duties of the Minister in relation to a purchase scheme so submitted shall apply and have effect as if such provisions were re-enacted mutatis mutandis in this section.

(3) In this Act the expression "board of health" shall be deemed to include an urban authority for the purpose of this section and this Act shall be construed and have effect accordingly.

The House will be familiar with the fact that from time to time there is a certain extension of the boundaries of borough councils and urban district councils. In recent years there has been a greater tendency in the direction of extending the boundaries of urbanised towns and cities, and that process is likely to continue so far that these extensions will result in tracts of land being taken in, on which there was erected in the past labourers' cottages. The persons living in these cottages will not have changed their occupations, merely because of the change in municipal control, but will still be agricultural labourers, and presumably following their normal occupation. It seems to me that if it is desirable in the view of the Government to arrange for the sale of these cottages, the tenants in the extended areas should be given an opportunity of coming within the scope of the Bill, so that they will get the same benefit as other agricultural labourers obtain. There does not seem to be a provision in the Bill whereby an authority that might secure a strip of territory on which cottages were erected would have imposed on it the obligation of setting up a purchase scheme. The object of the amendment is to enable them to do so.

Cottages that might be affected by the amendment are probably largely situated in County Dublin. There are others at Bundoran and Passage West in Cork. They have been included in municipal areas as a result of the extension of boundaries or for some other reason. Since they were transferred these cottages are being dealt with by the municipal authorities. Under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts, and in accordance with these Acts, any local authority so inclined can at any time submit a purchase scheme. I do not see why we should differentiate between cottages that have come under municipal authority and cottages already dealt with by urban councils or municipalities. I do not see why there should be preferential treatment. If local authorities, urban councils or municipal councils, wish to put up purchase schemes, as some have done, for instance, in County Dublin, under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts, there is nothing to prevent them doing so and offering terms perhaps as generous, or may be less generous, to attract tenants of labourers' cottages in urban areas to purchase their holdings. I do not think it would be fair to the rest of the tenants that the holders of the cottages referred to here, some of whom perhaps may have an acre of land, should get preferential treatment in urban areas or municipalities, by being able to purchase an acre of land at a price at which the local authority could never dream of purchasing it for itself. It would be unfair to the local authority and unfair to the other occupants of cottages and small houses in urban areas or municipalities. I do not think it would be fair to make it mandatory on the local authority to give preferential treatment to one particular class of its citizens.

I must confess that I am rather amazed at the way in which the Minister has met the point raised by Deputy Norton. He talks about preferential treatment, about nnfairness to the local authority, and to the occupants of other houses built by the local authority. But we are dealing with cottages that were built and financed as cottages for agricultural labourers. They were put up at a different period, financed in a different way, and tenanted by different people from the people who generally occupy houses built by urban councils and corporations. They are occupied practically altogether by people who are in occupations that usually do not command as high a wage, as the occupations of tenants of other working-class houses. It seems to me that it would be a great hardship to exclude them from the Bill. As for the Minister's point about the acre of land, I do not see anything in it. Whether there may be administrative difficulties in the way of working this amendment I do not know, but I cannot see any other sound reason for opposing it. It seems to me that we should deal with this matter as a whole and we should not leave out these few cottages because they are brought within a municipal area. I cannot see any reason why, if there are any benefits to be conferred by this Bill, they should not be extended to these cottage owners. It seems to me that, if anything, they are more entitled to these benefits and perhaps paid a higher price for these benefits, than those to whom the benefits are to be extended. The Minister has made no case at all against the amendment.

I am rather suprised at the attitude adopted by the Minister towards this amendment. I suppose we may assume from what the Minister has said since the extension of boundaries, the administration of these cottages has been taken over by the urban authorities concerned. As far as I have been able to ascertain, the rents in some of those cases have been increased. I suggest to the Minister that that is all the more reason why he should take power under this Bill to enable him to deal with these cottages in the same way as cottages which are 20 or 30 yards outside the urban boundary. The liability taken over by the urban authority is a great deal less than the liability which they have to meet for houses of similar capacity inside their area which they have built themselves. Deputy Norton has pointed out that these people are working in similar occupations to those followed by people to whom it is proposed to extend the benefits of the Bill. They are still working as farm labourers, as far as I know and I think they should get the same treatment as their brother farm labourers a few perches away. I do not think there will be any difficulty in the matter. Any urban council concerned will be satisfied to carry out what the Minister lays down in this Bill. Such information as I have is to the effect that the urban authorities concerned are quite satisfied to have these tenants included in the Bill. I suggest to the Minister that he should reconsider his attitude and agree that these people should receive the same treatment as people employed in similar occupations and living in similar houses.

Might I be permitted to ask the Minister a question which I forgot to put to him when I was previously speaking? Is it not a fact that many of the cottages which are at present within urban areas are still the responsibility of the county board of health?

Not in urban areas.

I take it, then, that all cottages within the urban areas are the responsibility of the urban authorities?

The reason I ask that is because the Minister said that there were a few cases where there were cottages within the urban area. There are certain areas which he did not mention where, to my own knowledge, there are labourers' cottages, and I was wondering whether these were still the responsibility of the board of health.

I cannot imagine that the Minister believed that he had a convincing case against the amendment, because certainly the arguments he adduced this evening were far from convincing, and I do not imagine that they could have made a very great impression on his own mind. The Minister said that it would be unfair to treat agricultural labourers, whose cottages had been annexed by an urban authority, differently from the occupants of houses erected for the working classes generally. Here we have a position in which the State sets out to confer what it believes to be certain benefits on the occupants of easily defined houses, houses which are defined as the residences of agricultural labourers. Everybody knows what an agricultural labourer's cottage is. It is easily defined by Act of Parliament, by the method of financing it and almost by its structure. There is no difficulty, therefore, in the Legislature saying, and in the local authority recognising, that it is possible to confer ownership on the occupants of those houses, but the Minister now wants to have a sub-division of this class. You have a broad category of people there, in the main resident in rural areas. The Minister wants to say that any of these cottages situate on land, which for other purposes has been annexed by the urban authority, is not to be sold to the occupant. Does the Minister think that there would be an unfair preference given to persons of that kind if their cottages were sold to them, while the general run of cottages or houses owned by the local authority were not disposed of to the occupants?

I suggest to the Minister that in his endeavour to appear consistent as between one cottage and another owned by the local authority, he is in fact creating a far bigger anomaly. As Deputy Corish has pointed out, we may have two labourers' cottages erected for the one purpose originally, financed in the same way originally, owned by the same local authority, one situate a short distance within the urban area and another situate a short distance outside. The persons occupying both cottages follow substantially the same craft, yet one is entitled to become the owner of his cottage and the other is to be prevented from becoming the owner by the Minister's refusal to accept the amendment. I think that is an anomalous state of affairs, an anomaly dealing with one well-defined class, which the Minister should not persist in maintaining by refusing to accept the amendment. You may have the peculiar position that the Dublin Corporation and the Dun Laoghaire Borough Council acquire portions of County Dublin. In respect of the portions so acquired, if the Minister persists in his present attitude, there will be no sale of the labourers' cottages situated on that land, but when this Bill is passed the County Dublin Board of Health may submit to the Minister a purchase scheme. He may sanction it, and the tenants of cottages owned by the board of health may have the ownership of those cottages conferred on them. At a later date the Dun Laoghaire Borough Council or the Dublin Corporation may desire to extend their boundaries further, and if permitted to do so they will take within their area not merely cottages which they will not sell, but cottages which have already been sold to the tenants. Therefore, you will have within the one urban area two categories of people: (1), those resident in cottages which were acquired before this Bill was passed; and (2) those resident in cottages on land acquired by the urban authority after this Bill was passed. You will have two classes of people within the urban area, one, with the right to purchase its cottage, and, secondly, another class prevented from purchasing its cottage. I suggest to the Minister that, in his effort to appear to avoid an anomaly, he is creating a much bigger, a much more indefensible, anomaly than the one that he is seeking to avoid. I trust, therefore, that he will reconsider and meet the point that I have made.

Following the remarks that have been made by Deputy Norton and others, I cannot see any reason for changing my attitude. What the Deputy has said as to what may happen in Dublin City or in the Dun Laoghaire Borough is probably correct: that, at some future date, both bodies may extend their boundaries and take within them cottages erected originally for labourers in connection with which a cottage tenant purchasing scheme may have been adopted by the Dublin County Council. But, there is a certain number of such cottages already within the urban area, and who will say that these cottages, built originally for agricultural labourers, are now occupied by people who would come within the definition of an agricultural labourer?

The Minister does not impose that test on the other cottages either.

They have a half acre or an acre of land. What is the value of that land, and how has it been increased? By reason of the fact that these cottages have been brought within the municipality and provided with the improved sanitary conditions available in municipalities or in up-to- date urban areas such as you have around Dublin City.

We have been trying to impress that fact on the Minister for Finance during the last three months, and he will not accept it.

The value of these cottages has gone up enormously, and they are to be preferentially treated by being given the special treatment that is meant for agricultural labourers living in rural areas. I do not see that a case has been made for these people, and I cannot see my way to change my attitude.

I would like to know from the Minister if he is very definite about the question that I put to him earlier: that there are no labourers' cottages situate within an urban area still under the control of county boards of health?

I believe not. If the Deputy has some cases in mind, I would be glad to hear of them.

I have one or two towns in mind, and I am almost certain that the tenants are still responsible for their rents to the county board of health and not to an urban authority.

If they are within the ambit of the urban council they have to pay their rents to the urban council.

Would Deputy Morrissey say if the towns that he has in mind are being administered by a commissioner or by an urban council?

An urban council.

I think it is the essential function of an urban authority to control housing.

I know that.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 39; Níl, 54.

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Davitt, Robert Emmet.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph
  • O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Reilly, John Joseph.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Wall, Nicholas.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, William Frazer.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corbett, Edmond.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamon.
  • Dowdall, Thomas P.
  • Flinn, Hugo. V.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Corish and K eyes; Níl: Deputies Little and Smith.
Amendment declared lost.
Sections 6 to 10, inclusive, put and agreed to.
SECTION 11.

Amendment No. 3 is consequential on one that has been lost.

Amendment not moved.
Section put and agreed to.
SECTION 12.
(1) Not later than six months after the appointed day the board of health of every county health district shall, in relation to every cottage in such county health district which is not situate on State land, prepare and submit to the Minister in accordance with this Act a purchase scheme.
(2) Where—
(a) a purchase scheme for a county health district has come into force, and
(b) either—
(i) the board of health for such county health district has provided an additional cottage (not being a cottage situate on State land) under the Principal Acts, or
(ii) such scheme has ceased to apply to a cottage which was vested in a purchasing tenant under this Act by reason of possession of such cottage having been recovered by such board under this Act,
such board of health shall forthwith prepare and submit to the Minister a purchase scheme in relation to such cottage.

I move amendment No. 4:—

Before sub-section (2) to insert the following new sub-section:—

(2) Every purchase scheme prepared under and in accordance with this Act shall provide or be deemed to contain a provision that the annuity payable by a tenant under this Act in respect of any particular cottage shall be a sum not exceeding 50 per cent. of the rent at which such cottage was let to the original occupier.

It seems to me, Sir, that the value of this Bill as a practical proposition to existing tenants must be related to the price at which it will enable them to purchase their cottages. If we are to provide for the tenants an annuity based on a certain percentage of the present rent, and at the same time to throw on to the tenants burdens which far outstep the relief which they are to be granted in the form of the reduced annuity, then I think we are going to make this Bill unacceptable to the tenants. Even in the case of those tenants who might have the temerity to purchase their cottages under the Bill, I think we will find that many of them will be unable to bear the burden which they will voluntarily undertake, and in a short time the local authorities will find themselves in the position not merely of being unable to collect the present rent of the cottages, but unable even to collect the annuities which are to be the tenants' contribution in payment for the cottages. In order to get some picture of what this Bill does in respect of the tenants, it is necessary to ascertain what the tenants pay at present in the form of rents, and what sum is spent in repairs on the cottages, and to compare that information with the rents which the tenants will pay in the form of annuity when the Bill becomes law, and the liability they will be undertaking in respect of keeping their cottages in repair.

When the Commission which dealt with this whole matter was sitting in 1932, it had submitted to it by the Department information to the effect that the rents received by local authorities from the tenants of labourers' cottages amounted to £129,000, and that the local authorities were spending a sum of £50,000 on repairs. If we take the present position, we find that the local authorities are still securing in the form of rents a sum of £129,000, and are spending, approximately, £44,000 on repairs. These, I think, are the figures given by the Minister. The tenant under this Bill will become the owner of his cottage when he pays an annuity for a certain substantial period of years. He will be asked to pay 75 per cent. of the present rent of £129,000, which means that he will be required to contribute, in the form of an annuity, £97,000, and to undertake responsibility for repairs, which at present cost the local authority £44,000. The tenants, thinking of them as a collective community, are at present enabled to occupy their cottages by paying not less than £129,000, but, when this Bill is passed, they will become the owners of their cottages by paying £97,000 for rent and undertaking repairs which at present cost the local authorities £44,000.

If we assume that that sum of money was genuinely spent on repairs, and that the local authorities did their duty in ensuring that they got value for the money they spent, this Bill will impose on the tenants, as a body, an obligation to meet annually, for the required period of years, a burden of £141,000 instead of the burden of £129,000 which they are being asked to pay at present. I think it is clear that, in existing conditions, the occupants of labourers' cottages are not able to pay even the present rates of rent. According to information supplied by the Minister on Second Reading, the arrears in respect of labourers' cottages, a few years ago, amounted to £33,000. I think he also indicated that that figure which was for 1932 had risen to £53,000 in 1935, and, in that vast amount of arrears, I think we have abundant evidence that the tenants of labourers' cottages, due to the depressed state of agriculture, due to the low rates of wages paid in the agricultural industry——

Thanks to the Labour Party.

——and due to the low rates of unemployment assistance benefit, find themselves in a situation in which they are unable to pay the rents for labourers' cottages with the ease and promptitude with which everybody would desire the rents of community-owned cottages of that kind to be paid. This Bill is not going to ease the burden on the tenant. Even the Minister to-day admitted that, so far as the tenants are concerned, between repairs and rents, they will now pay a sum of money in excess of the present rents, and in view of the fact that we have evidence that they are not able to pay the present rents, and that the burden is too onerous for them, I think it unfair to impose on these tenants a burden which they can never discharge. I think it will not be many years before this, or some other, Minister comes to the House for some kind of powers to deal with the situation created by the inability of the agricultural labourers to pay even the annuity on the scale conceived by the Bill.

The tenant, of course, might be able to shed some of the burden, if he were to say, "I will take this Bill in the belief that my only outgoings on the cottage will be 75 per cent. of the present rent," and many persons may be disposed to look on the Bill somewhat in that light. They will pay the annuity under pressure from the local authority, but it may be found that, through economic necessity, or some other equally good cause, it is not possible for them to purchase the materials necessary for the repair of the cottages, and, in that case, the repair of the cottages will be neglected. The boards of health will not ensure in the way in which they ought to ensure, or in the way in which one might expect them to ensure, that the cottages are, in fact, kept in a proper state of repair from year to year, and it may well happen that the tenant, finding it difficult enough to pay 75 per cent. of his present rent, will not be able to meet the cost of repairs, with the result that a very valuable national asset in the form of labourers' cottages may well be allowed to fall into a state of disrepair, and the national advantage of these cottages considerably impaired from the standpoint of being a national asset.

If that situation developed, it would be a very serious loss to the community, and it would constitute a considerable-damage to a community-created asset, in the form of labourers' cottages. If the imposition on the labourer of the responsibility of repairing the cottages means that the cottages are allowed to fall into disrepair, through his inability, by reason of economic necessity, to discharge that responsibility, I am greatly afraid that labourers will be unable to keep the cottages in repair. If we take the present average rent of these cottages as approximately 1/2 per week, 75 per cent. of that will amount to 10½d., and the saving to the labourer, therefore, by reducing his rent to an annuity of 75 per cent., will be approximately 3½d. per week, or 15/- per annum. That is the sum of money which the labourer has to store by to meet the cost of repairs. I do not think he can do it on that slender margin. We have got to remember that many of the 42,000 cottages which will be purchased under this Bill—the cottages erected under earlier Acts, and not under recent Acts—were erected over 40 years ago, and some of them are in existence for approximately 50 years. The burden of repairing those is going to become heavy. It is not a case of wanting some minor repair in this or that respect. The repairs of defects which show themselves in houses which have been in use, often by a large family, for a period of 50 years, are going to be extremely costly, from the standpoint of the tenant, and to meet that burden the tenant has a sum of 3½d. per week. The saving to him will be in an amount of 3½d. per week, but the obligation on him will arise, not in a form he can meet at the rate of 3½d. per week, but in a form which will require him to get together some pounds, in order to undertake the repairs at a particular time.

I have already told the House the relatively large sum which is spent on repairs at present, but the Minister, on Second Reading, admitted that boards of health in many cases had done little or nothing in the way of repairs. So that, to get a real picture of the repairs to be carried out in any particular year, you really require to take the present figure of £44,000 or £50,000, according to the year you select; but you have got to make allowance for the fact that the Minister for Local Government and Public Health has the view that boards of health, in many cases, have done little or nothing in the way of repairs, and therefore repairs on a scale larger than that revealed in statistical returns here by the Minister must be undertaken if the houses are to be in a proper state of repair. Again, that is the kind of burden that is going to be borne by the tenants of labourers' cottages. I think that if we are really desirous of assisting the agricultural labourer, if we really realise that we have a responsibility to the agricultural labourer to ensure that, because of his low wages and the general environment of the agricultural industry, he must be provided with a homestead on the easiest possible terms, then I think we should be taking the burdens off the backs of the agricultural labourers instead of piling them on, as this Bill will do if a burden of 75 per cent., plus the cost of repairs, is imposed on the agricultural labourers. I think that the State must realise that the agricultural labourer is in a difficult position. The agricultural labourer follows an avocation which goes hand-in-hand with a very low standard of living, and if you are going to keep him on the land and provide him with a homestead as the rallying base for his family, and if you are going to endeavour to ensure that he gets accommodation at the cheapest possible price, then I think the State must face the responsibility of sharing, on behalf of the agricultural labourer, a substantial portion of the burden that is necessary to carry out a reform of that kind.

The present Bill, I think, will impose on the agricultural labourer a burden that it will be difficult for him to bear, and I can well imagine some Deputy of this House putting down a question five years hence asking the Minister for Local Government and Public Health of that period what is the amount of annuities outstanding in respect of agricultural labourers' cottages, and I can imagine him receiving a reply that, I rather think, will confirm the forebodings that I had in respect of this Bill if the burden contemplated by this Bill is put on the agricultural labourer. In this amendment I sought particularly to say that the rent of a cottage should be a sum not exceeding 50 per cent. of the original rent at which such cottage had been let to the occupier. My reason for that was that some years ago—Deputy Mulcahy, probably, could throw more light on it than I can— local authorities were encouraged to increase the rents of labourers' cottages and, in a number of cases, did increase the rents. In some areas they carried out the instructions of the then Minister for Local Government and Public Health, and in other areas they did not do so. Now, the man under a local authority which refused to carry out such instructions is probably holding his cottage at the original rent, whereas in other cases, where such instructions were carried out, a newcomer will be expected to pay 75 per cent. of the increased rent, although he is in the same kind of cottage as the other man. That is a matter to which, obviously, the Minister should pay attention. Apart from that, certain local authorities have established a practice whereby, when a cottage becomes vacant, 6d. is added to the rent of the incoming tenant, and when a newcomer comes in there is probably an increase of 100 per cent. on the original rent, not because the cottage is better, but because it has changed hands so many times. That is not right. To ask a person to pay 75 per cent. of that enhanced rent is unfair. I know of cases in my own constituency where, in fact, rents have been increased two or three times merely because a particular cottage had changed hands that many times.

The object of this amendment is to ensure that this Bill will be regarded as a boon and a benefit to the agricultural labourers who will be the occupants of these cottages. I think that this amendment, if it is accepted, will ensure that local authorities can look forward with reasonable certainty to their ability to count upon the regular payment of annuities under this Bill from the labourers to local authorities. If the Minister should persist in passing the Bill in its present form, I think it will impose a burden on agricultural labourers which will break down community credit and which will help to break down community transactions of the kind contemplated in this Bill. That is neither a desirable thing to occur, nor is it a desirable thing to encourage by the creation of a set of circumstances under which conditions of that kind thrive. I hope the Minister will see his way to accept the amendment, I think he can look forward to the certainty that the Bill will be regarded as a boon by agricultural labourers, and not as something which increases, instead of lessening, existing burdens.

The Minister, earlier to-day, speaking on the Money Resolution, I think, talked about the advantages that this Bill is going to confer on the tenants. I should like to say, in regard to this amendment standing in Deputy Norton's name and my own, that whether the Bill is going to be beneficial or not will depend on the Minister's attitude to this amendment. It seems to me that if this amendment is accepted by the Minister, then the Bill may be said to be conferring a benefit on the tenants; but if the Minister refuses to accept this amendment, and if he insists on the Bill in the form in which he brought it before the House, I have no hesitation in saying that, rather than benefiting the tenants in any way, the Bill will impose a burden. We want to get a few points clear in this connection. The average rent of cottages at the moment, as has been stated, is 1/2 per week. The Bill proposes that the annuities will be 75 per cent. of that. In other words, the tenant is to get a reduction of 3½d. per week, but he is to be made responsible for the repairs. We have got various figures regarding the cost of repairs. We are told that, in 1931, the bill to be shouldered by local authorities for repairs was £50,000, in respect of 42,000 cottages. We are told that the amount last year was £44,000, but we know, and the Minister has admitted himself, that whether it was £50,000 or £44,000, it was not the amount that should have been spent—it was far from the amount that should have been spent—if the repairs which were necessary to be carried out had been carried out.

We know quite well that certain county boards of health have done their best to carry out whatever repairs were necessary. On the other hand, we know that many county boards of health did not do anything at all approaching what they should have done. Perhaps the county boards of health themselves were not always responsible; perhaps in certain cases responsibility might be placed on certain officials. Whoever was at fault, £50,000 does not represent the amount which repairs should have cost in 1931 any more than I believe does £44,000 represent the amount last year. Whatever reluctance there was on the part of local authorities to carry out repairs to labourers' cottages in 1931, that reluctance has, perhaps, increased considerably during the last three or four years, for many reasons. If we put it at the lowest and take the Minister's estimate as to the average cost of repairs, he puts it at 5½d. per week, and the benefit to be conferred on the tenant is the benefit of paying 2d. a week more for his cottage than he has been paying. Accepting the Minister's figure of 5½d., the tenant gets a reduction of 3½d. in his rent and is saddled with 5½d. for repairs.

There are other reasons why the reduction should be substantially more than 25 per cent. We know that as regards agricultural labourers, even if we take into account the official figures, their wages have been substantially reduced. We know that many of them are unemployed and we know still further that the cost of living has fairly substantially increased for those men. Generally speaking, we know that they are not as well off or likely to be as well off as they were some years ago. I think there is hardly anybody who has any knowledge of this matter who will deny that the cost of repairs is more likely to increase than to diminish. So far as some cottages are concerned, it has gone beyond the stage of repairs and it will mean, in many cases, replacements rather than repairs. We know that many of the cottages have been built for a long number of years and it is admitted that quite a number of these cottages were not built of the very best materials. We are aware that shortly after they were erected repairs were necessary in many instances and naturally those houses are going to be a growing burden during the coming years.

I do not want to repeat what Deputy Norton has said. Deputy Norton covered the case fairly fully. I do want to emphasise that if the Minister does not accept this amendment and if he insists on 25 per cent. as the maximum reduction to be given to the tenants, then the Bill confers no benefit whatever on them. Notwithstanding what the Minister told us about the letters he has received from the Cottage Tenants' Association to push the Bill through as quickly as possible, I wonder did he get any other letters from Secretaries of Tenants' Associations, or any resolutions? I am sure he did. So far as I, and I am sure other members of the House are concerned, we got resolutions from tenants' associations speaking of the Bill in terms other than the Minister told us about to-day. One could hardly expect the Minister to bring copies of these letters and read them for us.

I shall be glad to show them to you.

There is no necessity. Probably I have a copy of every one the Minister got himself, or nearly as many.

Very likely.

I seriously suggest to the Minister that there is very little material benefit and certainly no financial relief going to the tenants under this Bill. I would urge him strongly to accept this amendment, which is the amendment that is going to decide whether or not the Bill will be useful.

I think there is universal agreement that the Minister is to be congratulated on implementing the recommendation of the Cottage Tenants' Commission in respect of cottage purchase. The beneficial effect of ownership is obvious to anyone keenly interested and intimately acquainted with rural Ireland. The legitimate and laudable ambition of cottage tenants to become owners of their own homes is at last about to be realised. There is no better or more deserving section of people in the community than the cottage tenants. In looking over the report of the Cottage Tenants' Commission I find that one of its recommendations in respect of the matter of rent reduction is a general reduction of 25 per cent. on the rent at present being paid. Notwithstanding that recommendation of the Cottage Tenants' Commission, I would urge the Minister sympathetically to consider the widely expressed view in favour of making that reduction greater than 25 per cent.

As has been stated at some length and very clearly by both Deputy Norton and Deputy Morrissey, the cost of repairs, which is a statutory obligation on the local authorities, is substantially in excess of the 25 per cent. reduction proposed in respect of cottage tenants. The case has been so forcibly put to the Minister that there is hardly any necessity to stress it further. We will also have to take into account the expressed intention to put all cottages in a proper state of repair, certified by an engineer from the Department before the purchase arrangement is entered into. The cost of putting those cottages into a proper state of repair must be considered. Some of them are in a bad state in many counties. That will, to some extent, equalise the difference between the 50 per cent. reduction advocated by Deputy Norton and what I believe the Minister will, on a unanimous recommendation from all Parties in the House, give to the cottage tenants by way of increasing the proposed 25 per cent. to a greater figure.

The Cottage Tenants' Commission seem to have dealt entirely with existing tenants, and there is the difficulty of segregating existing cottiers from those who will come into possession of houses that are now being built and those who will occupy cottages that will be erected in future. That is a problem that confronts the Minister, and it was not given expression to in the terms of reference of the Commission, so far as I can gather. I assume that the reductions proposed by the Minister in respect of existing cottiers will apply to tenants who will occupy houses now being built and those who will occupy houses that will be constructed under future schemes. It has been stated that a good many of the cottages at present occupied have been in existence for quite a long time. Some were built more than 40 years ago. There are some very substantially built, decent houses, and there are others not quite so good. Rents have been paid during all these years in respect of the cottages built under various schemes during the last 40 years or a little longer. I did not know that this Bill was coming on this evening, and I have not the advantage of having the Minister's speech by me, but my recollection is that he mentioned that the purchase or redemption period was 35 years in respect of new cottages and 65 in respect of the pre-war cottages. The loans on the cottages built under different schemes fall in, of course, at different periods, and I would suggest in justice to those who have been in occupation of cottages for a number of years that the equated purchase period should be reduced from 65 years to 50 years, from which would be deducted in each case the age of the cottage. I seriously make this suggestion to the Minister as an equitable way of meeting the cases of those living in the older houses.

Now with regard to comparisons, we have all seen comparisons made from time to time with regard to the favoured treatment of cottiers in the matter of low rents, aid from the rates and contributions from the Central Funds. But anybody who has considered the question closely knows that some of the points made in respect of that matter do not deserve serious consideration. I came across a statistical return lately in which it was set forth that 80 per cent. of all agricultural holdings do not exceed 50 acres, the average acreage of these holdings being something less than 18. As the average (revised) annuity is 3/3 per acre, the cottager whose rent is 1/2 per week is paying an annual charge greater than 80 per cent. of our landholders of the average holdings in the State. I find in the report that has been made by the Commission of Inquiry into the Sale of the Cottages and Plots in respect of the reduction of rents, that the Commission reported very fully on the matter, and I find appended to that report a separate recommendation signed by four members which reads:—

"We have signed and agree with the general report, but desire to add that in view of the fact that substantial reductions to the extent of at least 50 per cent. are being made on all annuities payable by tenant farmers and others, under the various Land Acts, we suggest that in this connection favourable consideration should be given to the position of existing cottier tenants whose rent formed portion of the payments hitherto made to the British National Debt Commissioners by an Saor-stát."

I understand that the terms of reference, and also the time at which the annuity payments were withheld precluded that recommendation from being developed. However, I urge as strongly as I possibly can and as sincerely as I can that the Minister will sympathetically consider the recommendations that have been so widely made in respect of cottage tenants.

The attitude adopted by the Minister in this Bill will, in my opinion, determine the extent, if any, to which financial advantage will come to the cottier tenants under the terms of this Bill. I am convinced that the Bill, as it stands at present, will not confer any financial advantage on the cottier tenants. I have advised members of the Cottage Tenants' Association at meetings to which I was summoned that they should carefully consider their position as between the rents they are now paying and the reductions proposed by the Minister, together with the average cost of repayment, which they will have to bear after the Bill comes into law, if it comes into law in its present form. The moneys withheld by this Government from the British Government, including various sums such as R.I.C. pensions and land annuities, amount to a considerable annual sum. I think the amount payable under cover of loans comes to between £80,000 and £100,000. These had previously been paid over to the British Government.

The figure is £600,000 for loans.

Yes, the total sum is £600,000. That certainly includes a very big sum to cover loan repayments in connection with labourers' cottages. I would like to have from the Minister when he is replying the figure of the amount previously paid to the British Government previous to the financial dispute under the heading of Loan Charges in connection with the administration of the Labourers Acts. The farmers of this country got a benefit by the passing of the 1933 Act in connection with moneys withheld under the head of Land Annuities. There was and there is for the very same reason an equally good case to be made for the cottage tenants to be given the benefit of the moneys withheld covering charges recently paid to the British Government. That money should be set aside for the purpose of reducing the rents of the cottages or in some way conferring a benefit on the cottage tenants. The Minister, I presume, may argue that there is no comparison as between the cottage tenants and the farmers. But the Minister should take into consideration what he cannot deny —that is, that the cottage tenants of this country, or the majority of the tenants occupying labourers' cottages, are themselves agricultural labourers. We know that agricultural wages between 1931 and 1935 have been reduced by 3/- a week in many counties. In some cases figures could be quoted to show that the reduction is much greater.

Hear, hear!

At all events the Minister cannot deny the truth of the information in the statistics circulated by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, which show that there has been this average reduction of 3/- per week between 1931 and 1935, in the wages of agricultural labourers. That is as great if not a greater sacrifice than the sacrifice borne by the average small or big farmer in this country. From that point of view there is a strong case to be made in support of endeavouring to put aside £100,000 or whatever the amount is for the purpose of reducing the rents of the cottage tenants. The figure quoted in 1934 in connection with the loans due on labourers' cottages was about £120,000. That money is being set aside for the purpose of conferring a benefit on some other section besides the cottage tenants. If it is not so set aside I would like to hear from the Minister how that money is being used or for what purpose it is being used, because certain moneys previously paid to the British Government out of the rents collected have been withheld by the Minister's Government.

Some of my colleagues say that this money is going into the Suspense Account. I think the Suspense Account is now in a state of suspended animation. It was at any rate a Suspense Account up to a certain period. Deputy Flinn may tell us something about the Suspense Account or whether any of the moneys withheld—and which were previously paid to the British Government covering loans in connection with labourers' cottages—are hidden somewhere in the files of the Board of Works. Some members of the Cottage Tenants' Association who have been speaking in different parts of the country were apparently given to understand by somebody or other that the financial clauses of this Bill would be much better than what they now appear to be. I quote here from a speech delivered by Mr. Bradley, who is chairman and, I understand, president of the Cottage Tenants' Association executive and a very prominent Fianna Fáil supporter. Speaking in Kanturk on the 7th August, 1934, he said:—

"In connection with the forthcoming Cottage Tenants' Bill, it was his information, and he spoke subject to correction, that the occupants of the cottages built under the first schemes 40 years ago or their present tenants would probably get their cottages free."

As reported in the local papers, there was loud applause at the end of that statement.

He was not the only one disillusioned.

He was speaking under correction.

Subject to correction, I am sure he got a shock when he read the financial clauses of the Bill. At any rate, I have reason to know that Mr. Bradley is one of the most discontented officers or members of the Cottage Tenants' Association. He so informed representatives of this Party in a committee room when pressing us to bring forward the amendment, and we, at his request, are pressing the Minister to accept the amendment in the name of Deputy Norton. If the Fianna Fáil Party in County Cork wish to retain the goodwill of Mr. Bradley and the other people to whom such rosy promises were held out before the Bill was introduced, I think the Minister would be well advised to accept the modest amendment moved by Deputy Norton.

Personally, I am very sceptical as to the way the Bill is likely to be worked when it comes into operation. I fear that there is likely to be, under the present scheme, a considerable amount of contention and argument, and perhaps court cases, as a result of the powers to be conferred in future on boards of health regarding the necessity for repairing cottages. I, personally, would prefer some scheme to be put forward by the Minister which would leave the responsibility in the future, as in the past, on the local authorities for the repair of cottages. I dare say an engineer or an assistant can, after the Bill comes into operation, go out and instruct, if he likes without justification, a tenant to carry out repairs costing a fairly decent amount, and if the tenant refuses to carry out the repairs as ordered by the engineer, I presume the Bill will give him the power to bring the tenant into court and pile up additional expense on him.

Can he do that under Section 12 or the amendment?

It has a bearing on the financial section of the Bill we are discussing.

We are supposed to be discussing an amendment.

I am giving a reason why, in my opinion, there is a good case for a reduction of the annuity proposed in the Bill as it stands by 50 per cent. Deputy Gibbons pointed out that four members of the commission set up by the Minister to advise him on this whole question recommended a reduction of 50 per cent. I think he will admit that the members concerned are persons who, from his own intimate knowledge in some cases of the members of the body who made the recommendation, knew a great deal about and made a very careful study of this question before ever they were appointed members of that commission. However, I hope the Minister, in view of the representations made, perhaps made with greater force personally to himself, and through the Fianna Fáil organisation by the representatives of the cottage tenants, will see his way in order to make this Bill work smoothly, to reduce the annuity by 50 per cent. as proposed in the amendment.

Ba mhaith liom cabhrú leis an méid atá ráidhte cheana ag Teachtaí eile ar son an leas-rúin seo. Iarraim ar an Aire glacadh leis an leas-rún nó dul comh fada i n-Eirinn agus is féidir leis chun glactha leis. Ní gádh dhom dul siar ar na cúiseanna go léir go mba cheart do'n Aire rud foghanta a déanamh ar son tionóntaidhthe na n-iostán tá i gceist sa Bhille seo. Táid na tionóntaidhthe céandna ar cheann de na dreamannaibh is mó le rádh agus is tábhactaighe sa tír, agus tá an aisce seo tuillte acu comh maith is a thuill na feirmeóiri an laghdú cíosa a fuaireadar fá Acht na Talmhan, 1933. Ní bheadh sa laghdú atá i gceist sa leisrún so i gcás gach tionónta iostáin. Ní bheadh ann ach rud beag dar le duine, ach rud mór iseadh é do'n tionónta sán. Tá súil agam, dhá brígh sin, gur féidir leis an Aire glacadh leis an leas-rún, mar mhaithe le dream a thuill an aisce a gheobhaidís dhá bhárr chomh maith is a thuill aon dream daoine sa tír aisce d'á leithéid riamh.

Not having at any time any illusions about the Bill, I can appreciate the motive behind the amendment. I think it is only right that we should endeavour to get down to the figures as presented by the commission which sat at that time in order to see whether it is possible for labourers to purchase their cottages on the terms set out in the Bill, which the movers of the amendment are endeavouring to have amended, and continue to live. The Minister gave figures, the same figures which the commission had, which showed that the annual rental of these cottages, which are at present the subject of discussion, is £129,356. Seeing that the scheme is an optional one, the Minister must certainly offer some inducement to these people to buy. The advantage of ownership, I am afraid, is not an inducement in itself if it is going to cost them too much. If this rental of £129,000 is reduced by 25 per cent., that brings it down to something like £97,000. If we take the figure of £50,000 as representing a fair sum to allow for repairs, which the boards of health have apparently, on the average, being paying annually, that will bring up that £97,000, not as Deputy Norton said to £142,000, but to £147,000, so that this new scheme will entail an expenditure on the labourers of £147,000 as against the present £129,000.

On the Money Resolution I endeavoured to point out to the Minister that, as this was an optional matter with the tenants, there must be some inducement to buy. The Minister afterwards spoke of certain people being offered preferential treatment by being allowed to purchase under this scheme while others were not. I do not see much preferential treatment in being permitted to have your outgoings raised from £129,000 to £147,000. I think that the modest demand made in this amendment is something that the Minister, if he wants the Bill to operate, ought to accept. Personally, I have a very poor opinion of the Bill and I do not see very much of a future for it. If, however, the Minister thinks the Bill ought to operate, he certainly will have to offer some inducement to the tenants to purchase. If he thinks the fact that they are going to become registered owners is an inducement, while the outgoings are increased from £129,000 to £147,000, I personally do not agree with him. I do not think it is.

It is hardly possible, I think, for anyone to say anything fresh on this amendment, as almost everything that could be said has been said in its favour by Deputies in all parts of the House. It is only owing to the importance that I consider attaches to this amendment that I intervene at all for a few moments. I welcome the fact that there has been a unanimous chorus of appeal to the Minister in favour of this amendment. As one who has given a good deal of study to this question of the purchase of their cottages by labourers, and the desire all over the country to have such a scheme put into operation, I think that the success of the policy very largely depends upon the acceptance or rejection of the amendment now before the House. I have been in close touch with the cottage tenants' organisations throughout the country, and especially with those in my own constituency, where almost 100 per cent. of the occupiers of these cottages demand purchase. I say with equal emphasis that they will not avail of this measure if they do not get the 50 per cent. allowance for repairs. They know from experience that 15/- a year is a hopelessly ridiculous proposition to put before them to keep their houses in repair, and to undertake the responsibility of being liable to surprise inspection under the Bill which would enable repairs to be enforced at the expense of the cottier, irrespective of the meagre amount stated here, 25 per cent., representing an average of 15/- a year.

Various figures were mentioned as to the cost of the repair of the houses. Anyone who knows the cost of repairs, anyone connected with a public authority, would be prepared to admit that local authorities would be considered very stupid if they made provision for less than an annual outlay of 30/- for repairs in rural areas. In urban areas the expenditure would be very much greater. There are about 42,000 houses concerned and an expenditure of 30/- per year would represent about £63,000. That is the minimum figure that ought to be considered for repairs of those cottages. It is no use talking of what occurred in the years 1931 to 1934 because we know that the cottages were not repaired to the extent that they ought to have been. If inspection, under this Bill, is to be as lax as it was under the boards of health when they had responsibility for maintenance, is there any doubt but that the State would have reason to fear a continuance in the dilapidation of its property?

I would welcome regular inspection as to the proper maintenance of these houses, but before that, I would like to see the foundations laid of an equitable deal for the purchasing tenants. I think the Minister ought to reconsider this matter in the light of what has been urged from all parts of the House including Deputies on the Minister's side. I welcome Deputy Gibbons' contribution in this debate. But I think the Deputy should have gone the whole hog, and not ask for a compromise between 25 per cent. and 50 per cent., the figure mentioned in the amendment of Deputy Norton. I do not think the Minister will do any nibbling in this matter. I rather think he will go the whole hog. Upon the Minister's action depends the failure or success of this measure. For the last 30 years there has been keen agitation and demand for such a purchase scheme as this. Credit is due to the Minister and to the Government for introducing this scheme, but it ought to be such a scheme as will be acceptable to the cottiers themselves instead of being the distinct reverse. If this amendment is not accepted and as a consequence the measure becomes unacceptable, it will mean the prevention of a cottage purchase scheme in our lifetime.

I think this is a very serious matter. After the long campaign by this very deserving section of the community I think we owe them something better than a mere dangling of the carrot. I think in justice, and fair play, we should give them an opportunity of availing of this scheme for which they have been so long waiting and to which they are so justly entitled.

I mentioned this in 1933, on the occasion of the discussions of the Land Bill, and I personally contended that these tenants were as much entitled to a 50 per cent. remission of rents as were the farming community. The Minister for Defence who piloted that Bill through this House said it was an inopportune time to discuss the question in view of a Cottage Purchasing Bill being in the offing. That was over three years ago. I contend that in equity and justice the cottier tenants are as much entitled to that reduction as the farmers. These tenants were in the second-line trenches if the farmers were in the first-line trenches as we were told they were during the economic war. Many of the agricultural labourers have been deprived of employment; many of them have lost 3/- a week in their wages as agricultural labourers, and many of them have no work at all and have to go to the labour exchanges in order to get a few shillings. Their position has worsened and they certainly have got no corresponding advantage. If there was 50 per cent. reduction in rents given to the farmers to enable them to maintain their position, the labourers were equally entitled to their share. Now they are not offered 50 per cent. as an equitable remission; they are only offered 25 per cent. for the responsibility of relieving public authorities of the cost of repairs to their cottages. I think it is an absolutely unfair proposition. I trust the Minister will see the reasonable ness of the appeal made to him, from all parts of the House, to accept this amendment. If the Minister took a plebiscite of the people of the country he would find the same unanimity as amongst Deputies here in asking him to accept the 50 per cent. in this amendment in order to make this Bill worthy of acceptance if it is to become an Act.

I would like to support the appeal made by Deputy Gibbons and my colleagues from Limerick for a more equitable division of the cost in regard to the repairs of cottages. Everybody admits that the farmers suffered through the economic war, but so also did the labourers. Therefore, I appeal to the Minister to consider sympathetically the appeal made to him and to give a more substantial figure than the 25 per cent. mentioned in the Bill.

I also want to support the point of view put forward by Deputy Norton and other Deputies in connection with this matter. I cannot see how the Minister could be so hardhearted as to withstand the appeals made from all parts of the House on this matter, even from Deputies in his own Party. It is quite apparent, to anybody, that if the Whips were withdrawn when the division takes place, if a division should be necessary, the House would be in favour of a reduction of 50 per cent. It has been pointed out by Deputy Davin and other speakers, and by Deputy Gibbons, that members of the Commission appointed to look into this matter suggested that as farmers got a reduction of 50 per cent., cottage-holders are entitled to the same treatment. I would urge the Minister to examine that in its proper perspective. I suggest that it is the labourers who have borne the brunt of every fight we have had for freedom in this country. The labourers have borne their share as well as anybody and they are entitled to the same treatment as other people in the country and as the farmers have been given in recent years.

Deputy Davin pointed out that up to recent years the sum of £600,000 was being paid to the British Government by the predecessors of the present Government. That money is not at the moment being paid, and with that I agree. But at the same time the money is being collected from the cottage tenants. I suggest that a good deal of that money could be used in order to help the Minister to reduce the annuities from what he suggested to 50 per cent. I think it will be recognised by the Minister that if the Bill goes through in its present from, with the reduction of 25 per cent., the cottage tenant will be called upon to bear a greater burden than he is capable of bearing at the present moment. It was pointed out, in the course of the report of the commission, that the average amount required for the repair of cottages over a period of five years was £1 3s. 8d. per cottage. I do not think it was suggested by the commission that that average sum of £1 3s. 8d. covered all the necessary repairs. It was merely the sum expended over five years. We all know that, due to some reason or other, cottages have not been repaired as they should be repaired, and that the amount of money necessary to put cottages into a proper state of repair has not been laid out upon them. Under the Bill, the cottages will have to be put into a decent state of repair. I know that the Minister is taking precautions to ensure that these repairs will be carried out as he would like to see them carried out. However, as already pointed out, some of these cottages are 30, 40 and 50 years old. Even though repairs be carried out, immediately this Bill becomes law, these cottages will fall into disrepair very soon again, because of their age. In certain counties, tenants have been harrassing engineers for some years with a view to having certain repairs done. They have been dissatisfied with the amount of repairs carried out by the engineers in past years. One can imagine the boot being placed on the other foot now, and the engineers insisting that repairs to the extent of 100 per cent. be carried out. We know quite well that the tenant will not be in a position to do everything the engineer wants him to do. He will not be in a position to provide the necessary money. The engineer can then report to the board of health, and the board of health can insist on the repairs being carried out in accordance with the specification of the engineer. The Minister will agree that if a sum is expended on a house, and the annuity is to be increased in consequence of that, the county boards of health and the local Government Department will have a state of chaos created which will not be good for the tenant, the board of health or the Local Government Department.

It was pointed out in the report of the commission that about 5½d. per week would be the average for repairs. In the case of the cottages in my county, the average rent is, I think, 1/- per week. Twenty-five per cent. off that would leave the sum 9d. If we are to add the 5½d. suggested by the commission, which to my mind is a very small sum, it will run the cost up to 1/2½ per week. That means that the tenant will have to pay 1/2½ as against 1/- which he is paying at present. In view of the fact that agricultural wages are very low at the moment, the Minister should consider what has been said in connection with this amendment. As I pointed out at the beginning, members of his own Party have urged that the Minister should accept this amendment. The amendment has been supported from all sides of the House, and if the Minister ascertained the views of the different county boards of health, I am sure they would be in favour of a 50 per cent. reduction. They are quite satisfied, if the liability for repairs is lifted from their shoulders, that they will be making a very good bargain. Fifty per cent. of the rent would then be collected from the tenant. I suggest to the Minister that he should either accept this amendment or have a free vote of the House upon it. If he does that, he will find that the majority of the members are in favour of it, and he will find also that the vote recorded will be merely a reflection of the opinion of ratepayers and boards of public health.

I have never been enthusiastic about the purchase of labourers' cottages. It is hard to conceive any scheme of cottage purchase which would confer much benefit on the tenant. In that view I differ from a number of my colleagues. It seems quite clear now that if the amendment under discussion is not given effect to, this scheme will confer no advantage on tenants of labourers' cottages. In the absence of a provision of this kind, the scheme will impose a considerable burden on tenants, having regard to their financial limitations. I happen to know the position intimately in the constituency which I represent. In the rural district in which I live, there are 442 labourers' cottages, erected under various schemes. The overwhelming number of these cottages were originally defectively built. Now is not the time to apportion the blame for that position, but a legacy of extremely defective labourers' cottages—damp and entirely unsuited to the needs of the average family—was left to the board of health. The chairman of what used to be known as the county board of health in Cork is a member of this House, and knows the facts as well as I do. Since I became associated with the board of health in 1927, we have been faced with a very heavy burden, year after year, in an attempt to improve the condition of these cottages. It is an extremely difficult task, because anything that can be done in the way of repairs will not put a large number of the cottages in a proper condition. When one defect is remedied, some other defect clamours for attention, and the repair of originally defective work goes on unceasingly. It is not unusual to find a specification for repairs running into about £15. I have known some cases where it amounted to £20, and there are no items in the specification which did not require attention.

It has been repeatedly stated, and it cannot be emphasised too often, that labourers in possession of these cottages in the future will find it impossible to cope with the ravages of defective construction and time. The average amount spent on repairs to cottages in West Cork is 30/-. The benefit to be conferred by the reduction proposed in the Bill, which it is now sought to amend, will be something like 13/-. Taking the average rent as it is in West Cork, at 1/- weekly, it will mean that tenants will be instantly faced with an added burden of 17/- yearly for the rather shadowy hope that at some time in the future, if they live long enough, they or some members of their families or their successors will become the owners. I think this a very bad bargain for the labourers. I am more steadfast in that view in present circumstances, taking into account the existing rents of cottages and plots, and the 50 per cent. reduction given in the annuity on a 25 or 30-acre farm. There can be no comparison in the opportunities provided on holdings of that size and on plots attached to labourers' cottages.

I referred to the fact that the average yearly expenditure in West Cork area on labourers' cottages is about 30/-. That amount has proved entirely inadequate, as in a number of districts the amount to be allocated over the period of 12 months ending 31st March, 1937, has been already earmarked for a certain number of cottages, so that at the rate of 30/- per cottage no money is left to provide repairs for the remaining cottages. That clearly proves that the amount provided is inadequate. I suggest to the Minister that he ought to accept what is the general view in the House, and what is very definitely the view of members associated with local authorities and that, at least, the concession sought in the amendment should be provided for, or the position ought to be faced that the tenants of labourers' cottages ought to be told definitely that the Bill is not one to give them any benefits whatever, but to impose certain definite financial disadvantages upon them. Let the matter be faced in that way. There is another aspect that should be stressed, that in the event of tenants not being able to meet the cost of repairs, if the amendment is not accepted, it will be within the power of the board of health to compel certain repairs to be done. If they are not done possession of the cottages could be sought. That would be a serious prospect for a large number of tenants. The absence of such a provision as is contained in the amendment, which I think represents the only possible attempt to improve a Bill the general advantage of which seems to be doubtful, will be an intense disappointment to tenants generally, and the logical result will be that the whole principle underlying the Labourers Acts is likely to be very seriously undermined.

I wish to support the amendment and to appeal to the Minister to do for the tenants of labourers cottages what the Government has done within the last few years for the farmers, namely, to reduce their rents. I understand that the £129,000 which is paid as rent by tenants of the cottages is collected by the Government of this country at present, and that £129,000 is also paid by the farmers in penal tariffs to the British Government. I see no reason why the Government, which has given a 50 per cent. reduction of annuities to the farmers, should not deal in a like manner with the tenants of cottages. A great many of these cottages were never repaired since they were built. The £44,000 spent on repairs last year does not indicate that 42,000 cottages were repaired, because that would represent a little over £1 a cottage. In many cases repairs to cottages cost £8 or £9 each. The cost of repairs would be more than £44,000 yearly, probably £60,000, if any sort of substantial repairs were carried out. If the Minister accepts the amendment and gives a reduction of 50 per cent., there will be no difficulty in future with regard to repairs. Deputies spoke of 17/- yearly covering the cost of repairs. I consider that 17/- would not whitewash a cottage twice yearly, and would not go any distance towards carrying out the repairs that are necessary, especially to cottages that were not repaired since they were built. If the Minister accepts this amendment there will be no further difficulty about repairs.

I desire to support the amendment. I have listened to the arguments in favour of the amendment and I am in agreement with them. An unanswerable case has been made for the amendment. In the first place, in view of the fact that farmers have received a reduction of 50 per cent in their annuities, it is only fair and just that labourers who are akin to the farming community, should receive the same consideration. In justice and equity they have a right to this reduction. I do not think the Bill as it stands, exacting 75 per cent. of the former rent as an annuity, would make any improvement in the position of labourers at the present time. I know that when the Minister brought in the Bill he calculated on improving the labourers' position, but from the financial point of view I do not think it will improve their position very much, if at all. Cogent arguments have been put forward for the amendment and I do not think a case can be made against it. Nobody will begrudge this little boon to the labourers. I am sure the farming community will not. If they did, they would be taking up an ungrateful attitude because the labourers always assisted in any agitation to advance the farmers' interests. Some of us are old enough to remember the fight the farmers had to make in the Land League days to secure a reduction in rack rents as well as the security of tenure that they now enjoy. It may not be very generally known amongst Deputies that when farmers were agitating, and when monster meetings were held in connection with the land movement, the labourers were the backbone of that movement. It would be regrettable if farmers to-day begrudged this concession to the direct descendants of those who assisted them. I ask the Minister to accept the amendment. If he cannot accept it in its entirety, I would like him to go as far as he can, and to reduce the annuities on cottages by at least 60 or 70 per cent.

I desire also to support this amendment. I might say that there is general disappointment amongst the cottage tenants in my area at the terms of this Bill, especially in regard to this section which it is sought to amend. I think that it is only fair and just that, as the farmers of the country under the 1933 Act were relieved of 50 per cent. of their annuities, the labourers of the country, who are also in the front line trench of the economic war, should in the same way be relieved of 50 per cent. of their rents. I happen to know the position in my area, and I believe it is well known to the Minister also, in connection with the state of collection of the rents of labourers' cottages. We have in my area 2,500 labourers' cottages, and it is well known to the Minister that the tenants of these cottages are not able to pay their rents at the present time, or have not been able to pay them for the past two years. It is well known to the Government that the wages the tenants of these cottages are receiving from the farmers would not enable them to keep body and soul together, not to speak of paying rents and wages and other calls which they have to meet. If the Government and the Minister are honest in their anxiety about the welfare of the labourers of the country, the Minister should have no hesitation in accepting the amendment. We have had cottages built for the last 23 years, some of them for the last 40 years, and, as pointed out by other speakers, these cottages were not properly built when they were first erected. They were built on swamps and the plots were anything but good.

Under this Bill it is proposed that they are to be relieved of only 25 per cent. of their rents and that they are to be responsible for all repairs afterwards. I cannot see that that will be of any benefit whatever to the labourers of the country. I wonder what would be the position, under this proposal, of one tenant in my area who returned from his work a few days ago to find that the gable end of his house had gone down? If he had purchased, I wonder how he would repair his house? That case only shows the way these houses were built and the way the sites were selected. If we are going to hand over those houses to the tenants we should give them a reasonable reduction in their rents to enable them to repair their houses when repairs are necessary. I say again that if the Minister and the Government are really honest in their desire to promote the welfare of the tenants of labourers' cottages in this country, they should have no hesitation in accepting this amendment. If the Minister does that, he will make the Bill a good Bill. If he does not, the Bill will be a failure.

I think that it should be brought home to the mind of Deputy Daly and other Deputies over there that this Government is looking after the labourers and has the interests of the labourers at heart.

Mr. Daly

I do not think.

Deputy Daly is sitting on committees every week to provide for the building of labourers' cottages. Prior to that the labourers got no cottages since 1914.

Mr. Daly

Why?

Because the Cumann na nGaedheal Government would not give them.

Mr. Daly

Because the proposals were thrown out.

The local problems of County Cork might be settled in County Cork.

I would certainly ask the Minister in this case to give way. I think that when the matter is considered from the viewpoint of the treatment meted out to the farmers who purchased their holdings and who got from this Government a 50 per cent. reduction in their annuities, the Minister should favourably consider giving a decent reduction in the purchase price of labourers' cottages. I think, in all fairness to the labourers who have gone through strenuous times and who have at any rate always been national, when we are bringing in a purchase scheme under which these labourers are to be made owners of their own homes, the Minister should be at least as generous. I would remind the Minister, also, that a certain amount of this money has been withheld from the British. I think that as he has given the farmers a 50 per cent. reduction, he should now be as decent to the labourers when he is proposing to make them owners of their own homes and not to leave them at the beck and call of anybody who wishes to give them a week's notice, and eject them from their cottages. I think that when he is bringing in a purchase scheme he should be more generous than to give them merely a reduction of 25 per cent. I would urge him to consider this matter very carefully and to do the decent thing by the labourers now that he has the opportunity.

As there appears to be complete agreement amongst all parties, might not the amendment be recorded as passed?

We have not heard the Minister yet.

He cannot get anyone to say anything against the amendment.

I shall be able to do that myself.

I agree with the points put forward by the previous speakers and I would ask the Minister if it is at all possible to extend this concession. The objection to the amendments, as far as I understand it, is that there is no analogy between the position of farmers who purchased their holdings and the position of tenants in labourers' cottages. It is also said that these plots were purchased and handed over, more or less, as gifts to the labourers. On the other hand, the tenants of labourers' cottages were given the cottages and the plots on certain conditions and they had to submit to certain restrictions. For instance, they could not dispose of these cottages or plots. The farmers' position is quite different. When they obtained their holdings they had certain liberties and certain privileges which were not enjoyed by the labourers. I would point out that in our county the agricultural labourer is indispensable to the farmer. He is continually assisting the farmer, working day in and day out. The point has been made that the labourers have done their part in the national struggle. I think everyone will agree with that, and also that there has been such co-operation between farmers and labourers as has made it possible for both to work out an existence. I would appeal to the Minister that, if it be at all possible, he should go some distance to meet this amendment. The question of the repairs of labourers' cottages has been mentioned. To my mind the system of repairs carried on has been a failure. I think it would be much better if a decent concession could be given to the labourers, and then make them responsible for the repairs themselves. That, from every point of view, would be a much better arrangement than the system that obtains at present. I think it would give satisfaction to all concerned.

The demand that has been made on the Minister this evening to grant the concession referred to appears to be rather widespread. I desire to add my voice to the general demand made that he should reconsider his decision. In the county I represent, the tenants of labourers' cottages, while believing that this Bill is a great advance towards meeting their requirements, and is a great gesture on the part of the Minister, indicating that he is prepared to meet them as far as it is possible for him to do so, are still of the opinion that if the Bill is to produce the beneficial results expected from it: that if they are to be placed in the position they anticipated a year or two years ago, a further reduction should be given as regards the annuity. Now, it may be that the Minister has not at his disposal sufficient money to enable him to do that. At the same time, I would ask him to reconsider his decision and to take into account the position of those people.

Some Deputies have attempted to draw an analogy between the position of farmers who have secured a 50 per cent. reduction in their annuities and that of the tenants of labourers' cottages. I do not know that the analogy holds, because Deputies are aware that so far as the repairs of labourers' cottages are concerned, and other charges in connection with the cottages, a great share of that burden was borne by the State and the local authorities. Therefore, I do not think that the case made on that line was very convincing. The position, as I see it, is that the tenants of labourers' cottages will be prepared to accept this measure with acclamation, provided there is some further reduction in the amount of the annuity.

I just desire to say a few words on this amendment. With the other Deputies who have spoken, I would appeal to the Minister to reconsider the case that has been made for it. I am quite well aware that there are considerable difficulties in the way. I agree with Deputy Kelly that there is no parallel at all between the position of farmers and their annuities and the rents of labourers' cottages, but at the same time I would ask the Minister to see whether he could not offer better terms under this Bill.

I desire to support the appeal that has been made by Deputy Kelly, Deputy O'Reilly, Deputy Gibbons and other Deputies to the Minister to reconsider his decision on this matter. I am sure that the Minister is sincerely anxious to do the best that he possibly can for the tenants of labourers' cottages —to give them the greatest possible relief—but, perhaps he is not fully conversant with the conditions prevailing generally throughout the country. Labourers at any time have not a very happy existence. The rate of wages paid to them in rural areas are not more than 14/- or 15/- a week with board. Those of them who are married, and have to support young families, must find it very hard to carry on after paying their rents and rates out of their wages. Those of them who have young families are not able to utilise their cottage plots to the full extent. I am quite sure that the farming community would not quarrel with the Minister if he were to give the concession asked for. I think his doing so would please everybody. If he is not able to give the full 50 per cent. reduction, I hope that at least he will be able to go further than the 25 per cent.

There has been a good deal of talk this evening about the cost of repairs of the cottages and of the burden that this puts on the local authorities. If the Minister is not able to give the 50 per cent. reduction in the annuity, I do not know that there is anything in the Bill that would prevent the local authority from making up the difference by way of meeting the cost of repairs to the cottages, and thus relieving the tenants of that liability. If the Minister were to agree to that, it would cut out all the argument we heard about the cost of repairs and of the burden that this will place on the tenant. I hope the Minister will do his best to meet the unanimous representations that have been made to him on this matter from all sections of the House.

It is quite evident, judging from the speeches that we have had on this amendment, that the tenants of labourers' cottages have many eloquent friends in the House. They are not wanting in people to put forward their case. Some eloquent speeches have been made here on the position of the agricultural labourer, his past, his present, and his future. I am not as closely in touch with agriculturists, labourers or farmers, as probably I might say most members of this House, but I am not unmindful of their position, in the past or in the present. I know, as some Deputies have reminded us here, that they are not the best paid class in the community. I know as a matter of fact that in some areas of the country they are very poorly paid. I hope that before this year is out, as a result of the promise that was made recently by the Minister for Agriculture on behalf of the Government, that that problem is going to get consideration which will I hope lead to an amelioration of the position in the areas where that consideration is most urgently needed.

The question of agricultural labourer cottier tenants and their wages is to some extent entitled to consideration when we are dealing with this Bill. It is an argument I suppose that can be used, but it is not altogether to my mind ad rem. We are not dealing with the question of agricultural labourers wages at the moment We are — and I say it despite the speeches that have been made—trying to confer a benefit upon them in introducing this measure here. We are trying to convince the House that it is a good thing—and the House has adopted that idea in principle at any rate—to give to cottage tenants, agricultural labourers and others, an opportunity of becoming the owners in fee-simple of their own cottages and plots, and of doing so on terms which to my mind are reasonable and advantageous to the present occupiers. It is a popular thing of course—this applies all round—to plead for more generous treatment for the agricultural labourer. Judging by one or two of the speeches which I heard from gentlemen whom I would not suspect of much sympathy with the agricultural labourer, one would almost imagine that a general election is near at hand——

And of course it is not!

—— instead of being nearly two years away.

The Budget killed that thought.

I think so. Good as it was there was no stunting in it. It was a plain, honest, straightforward Budget.

Wait and see.

You can wait and see. I am not a prophet; I am just giving you the facts. I do not deny that Deputy Morrissey takes an interest in agricultural labour, and in all classes of labour, but I cannot say the same for some of his colleagues. Certainly I think I have good reason to resent the remark made—whether it was intended or not—by Deputy Daly a few minutes ago, when he talked about what would happen if the Minister or his Government were honest in their interest in the agricultural labourer. From him or his Party a questioning of the honesty of the Minister and of the Government in their interest in that class of the community comes very badly. Why, in the area he represents in Cork, they did not build a labourer's cottage all the time the last Government was in office, and they have not built many even since the 1932 Bill was passed. We have been pressing and pressing, and it is only in the last few months that they have been making any move commensurate with the size of the problem in North Cork. I believe that in this Bill we are offering a good proposition to the agricultural workers who are tenants of cottages or who may become tenants in the days to come. As Deputies have said here— I have said it myself earlier to-day in speaking of this Bill—if the offer is not a good one they need not accept it. Naturally, there are as hardheaded business men amongst the cottier tenants as there are among any other class of the community, farmers included, who are usually regarded as fairly tough when it comes to striking a bargain.

They have nothing on the Minister in this Bill.

I believe it is a good offer and a generous offer to give them an opportunity of becoming owners in fee-simple of the cottages and plots they occupy at what can be made practically the present rent that they are paying to the local authorities. Even if we take it on the last figures given for the cost of repairs, £44,000 a year, making a 25 per cent. reduction in the present rents as they have been read out here earlier, and adding the total cost of the repairs, the total as given here for the year 1935 would mean that there would be an additional £12,000 a year, or 6/- a year per cottage, added to the present rents that the occupiers are paying. That is, I think, the worst side of the picture. I do not believe that the repairs which the cottiers may do themselves under the terms of the Bill if they adopt the purchase scheme will cost them anything like the amount that the local authorities are obliged to pay at present for doing the same work or probably inferior work. I think the cottiers will have an interest in keeping their cottages in repair, and that they will keep them in repair, and in better repair than before in most cases. Unquestionably, some of the cottiers have kept their cottages splendidly in the past, although they did not own them. In many cases— not in all—it is a pleasure to go around the country and see how they are not alone kept in repair but kept beautifully. It is certainly very gratifying. Those of them who wish to do so will be able to keep their cottages in repair for less than the amount which the local authorities have had to pay in the past for frequently poor workmanship.

There are even boards of health which have not spent anything like enough money in keeping those cottages in repair in the past. Under the terms of the Bill the boards of health in all cases must put the cottages into proper repair, to the satisfaction of my Department, before they can hand them over to the purchaser. They must spend a considerable sum in some cases. Already local authorities have budgeted for spending large sums of money to put those cottages into repair. When the local authority has spent the money necessary to put the cottages into proper condition to the satisfaction of my inspectors— and, in many cases, as is known, they are not in repair at present—I think it will be possible for the tenants to keep them in repair for less than it has cost the local authority per annum recently, and, in many cases, they will probably get much better work done for less money.

I think the principle is a good one of inducing the tenants to become the owners of their property. It is the best kind of Christian and Catholic philosophy, and I think the terms that are being offered are such as will attract the tenants, in spite of the eloquent speeches of Deputy Norton, and many others on my own side of the House as well as on the Opposition. I should like to remind the House that there is nothing in the Bill which says that the reduction is to be 25 per cent. I stated, on Second Reading, that I adopted the recommendations contained in the report, and the recommendations included a reduction of 25 per cent. on the present rents, and that future tenants should bear the cost of the repairs, provided the local authorities first put the cottages into proper condition. I did not, however, put into the Bill anything to say that the reduction was to be 25 per cent. or any other percentage, and I did not do it because I know there are such differences in conditions, not alone between county and county, but between scheme and scheme of labourers' cottage building in each county, that it will require very skilful handling to draft purchase schemes that will be equitable and fair to all parties concerned.

When the boards of health get together, with the information they have and with the information their officials can give them, to draft schemes, and come to our Department with their schemes—they can come to the Department with their schemes before they are finally adopted—they will get advice and assistance of every necessary kind, and our desire will be to make the burden as light as possible on the tenants, bearing in mind the responsibility of the Ministry to the ratepayers as well. But again, I insist that there is nothing in the Bill which limits the reduction to 25 per cent. I certainly would strongly resist, and do intend to resist, the demand that we should state in the Bill that there must be a 50 per cent. reduction. I do not think that would be fair; I do not think it would be just and equitable to all concerned. I do not think we could do it with justice, but I do again say that there is nothing in the Bill limiting the reduction to 25 per cent. We will take each scheme as it is put up to us by the local authority, and we will examine it and discuss the anomalies that do exist in each county at present.

There are many schemes, which have been put through in different counties where the cost of money differed very materially. At one time, the cost of loans raised for the building of these labourers' cottages was 2½ per cent. and 2¼ per cent., and later, it was 4¾ per cent. The period over which the loan had to be repaid differed very materially, and all these different problems will have to be taken into consideration. The different rents that exist must also be considered. There are, in most counties, cottages, the rent of which is 9d. and there are cottages, the rent of which is 2/- and 2/6 per week, and we must try to strike an even balance between all these, and reach a figure that will be fair and equitable to all concerned. It will take some serious thought and working out to get a figure that will be fair to all parties. Where there is a doubt as to what should be done when a particular problem comes to be solved in relation to any of these schemes, I would certainly be inclined to lean to the side of the agricultural labourer, but I certainly must resist the attempt to tie us up, and to insist that 50 per cent. of the present rents be lopped off, because I do not think it would be equitable.

Several Deputies have made the case that, now that the farmers have got a reduction of 50 per cent. in their annuities, it is only just that agricultural labourers, tenants of cottages built under the Labourers Acts, should get a similar reduction, but the cases are not comparable. The farmer was not subsidised by the taxpayer or by the ratepayer as was the labourer. There is no agricultural worker who is a tenant of a labourers cottage who can be said to have paid at any time an economic rent, a rent in any way approaching the figure which it cost the State and the local authority to provide that cottage and plot. The local authority, frequently to a greater extent than the State, has provided the difference between the rent paid by the agricultural labourer and the cost of supplying the house and the plot. That is not true of the farmer. The farmer has paid an economic rent. We were reminded here this evening that farmers—perhaps not the present generation, but former generations—paid much more than an economic rent and it required a very great struggle indeed and much sacrifice and suffering to get justice for the farmer. We were reminded and, properly, too, to-night, that in these fights the labourers frequently bore as much of the brunt of the battle as did the farmers. They suffered in various ways with the farmers during the course of that struggle, but the cases are not on all fours, and I do not think it is just to present the case in that way.

There is one other point which I think might be mentioned, and it is that the Government is spending out of the taxpayers' money, and intends to continue to spend, a very considerable amount of money in helping to provide decent homes for the agricultural workers as well as for other similarly circumstanced people in the community. In order to do so, however, we have to get the help of the local authority. The local authority has to tax itself to a certain extent, and if we put heavy burdens—as heavy burdens as would be necessary in order to give a 50 per cent. reduction to the present cottier tenants—I am rather afraid that cottage building will certainly decrease, if not cease altogether, in many areas where the local authorities will not be prepared to face the additional burdens that they must face if. I were to give way to the amendment. I do not want to see that. I do not think it would be fair, because I think there are still in the rural districts many thousands of agricultural labourers who are living in hovels and who require to be housed, and they are entitled to houses just as well as those who have got them in the recent and remote past. We have a duty to them; and it is because I bear in mind our duty to the people who have not yet got houses or plots that, in justice to them, to the local authorities, and to all concerned, I feel I cannot go any further than I have gone in the Bill.

I should like to ask the Minister has he considered the question of the redemption price in respect of "old" or existing cottages?

Oh yes. That is one of the problems that will come up for consideration in connection with this scheme. The redemption price, as well as other aspects of the Labourers Acts, certainly will be brought into consideration in the drafting and approving of the final scheme that is to be set up.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 38; Níl, 55.

  • Bourke, Séamus.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Davitt, Robert Emmet.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Roddy, Martin.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, William Frazer.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corbett, Edmond.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamon.
  • Dowdall, Thomas P.
  • Flinn, Hugo V.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Ward, Francis C.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Corish and Keyes; Níl: Deputies Little and Smith.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 5:—

In sub-section (2), line 47, to delete the word "forthwith" and substitute therefore the words "within twelve months".

I really put down this amendment to get an explanation from the Minister as to what we are to understand from that word "forthwith." The section reads: "Where (a) a purchase scheme for a county health district has come into force, and (b) either (i) the board of health for such county health district has provided an additional cottage (not being a cottage situate on State lands) under the Principal Acts, or (ii) such scheme has ceased to apply to a cottage which was vested in a parchasing tenant under this Act by reason of possession of such cottage having been recovered by such board under this Act, such board of health shall forthwith prepare and submit to the Minister a purchase scheme in relation to such cottage." I want to know from the Minister what meaning is to be attached to the phrase "shall forthwith prepare and submit ... a purchase scheme". Does it mean that the board of health, having put up a scheme of 50 cottages, may be compelled every time they finish a cottage to put up a scheme and advertise it, as it has to be advertised under this Bill? Are they to go to all that expense and trouble and do that every time they build a cottage? If that is the meaning we are to attach to it, I suggest the Minister should give the board of health at least 12 months; instead of the word "forthwith" he should substitute the words "twelve months". I would like to have the Minister's view.

I have no objection to accepting the Deputy's amendment. My idea in putting in "forthwith" was to indicate that there should not be undue delay, that it should be done as soon as possible. If the Deputy thinks it is more convenient to put in "twelve months" I have no objection.

I think it would be an advantage. It would at least give the board of health something to go on.

All right. I accept it.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 6:—

To delete sub-section (3).

I came to the conclusion, with regard to sub-section (3) and (4), that there is duplication. Of course I know there is a certain distinction between them. Sub-section (3) sets out: "the board of health of such county health district shall, if the Minister so directs, forthwith prepare and submit to the Minister a new purchase scheme in relation to such cottage," and sub-section (4) says: "the board of health for such county health district may, with the consent of the Minister, prepare and submit to the Minister a new purchase scheme in relation to such cottage". I think the two ought to be welded into one and let sub-section (3) read something like this: "Where— (a) a purchase scheme which applies to a cottage in a county health district has come into force, and (b) a person, who is the tenant of such cottage and who has not purchased such cottage under this Act, cases to be such tenant, the board of health of such county health district shall, with the consent of the Minister, forthwith prepare and submit to the Minister a new purchase scheme in relation to such cottage." If you had the two welded into one, it would not be so cumbersome. In sub-section (3) we have the Minister forcing the board of health to prepare a scheme, and in sub-section (4) we have him allowing the board of health to prepare the same scheme. There is no necessity for duplication.

There is a necessity. A case might not come under the first sub-section to which the Deputy refers. This sub-section is intended to meet the case where a future tenant desires to purchase a cottage which was not purchased by the tenant in occupation the time the first scheme was passed. It is necessary to meet that kind of case.

I am sorry. I desire to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment No. 6, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 12, as amended, agreed to.
Amendment No. 7.

I think we can take the decision of the House in the case of the last amendment on this; I am afraid that decision covers this.

Amendment No. 7 not moved.
Section 13 agreed to.
SECTION 14.

I wish to move amendment No. 8:—

Before Section 14 to insert the following new section:—

(1) In addition to any other powers conferred on him by the Principal Acts or by this Act, the Minister may if he considers it expedient so to do before making an order under paragraph (a) of sub-section (1) of the next preceeding section by an order made under this section require the board of health to prepare a scheme (in this section referred to as the "enlargement scheme") in relation to any cottage within the functional area of such board of health to which there is attached a plot or garden less than one acre in extent for the purpose of enlarging the area of such plot or garden.

(2) Whenever an order requiring a board of health to prepare an enlargement scheme is made under this section it shall operate and have effect to require the board of health to which it relates within six months after the making of such order to prepare and submit for the approval of the Minister an enlargement scheme in accordance with the provisions of such order.

(3) For the purpose of this section the provisions of Section 3 of the Labourers (Ireland) Act, 1906 shall, subject to such modification as the Minister may by order prescribe apply and have effect in relation to anything done by a board of health in pursuance of an order made under and in accordance with this section.

I am moving this in order to enable the Minister to give authority to the boards of health to acquire more land, if needed by the tenants of the labourers' cottages. This amendment would confer upon the Minister power to enable the local authorities to increase the area of land attached to a cottage. I think the Minister would be well advised to accept this amendment, because at the moment the tendency for labourers is to apply for more land. I think it will be admitted that the policy of the present Ministry is to get the people back to the land. The industrious agricultural labourer should be encouraged to acquire more land in order to grow more food for himself and his family. The Minister should take power in this Bill to enable the boards of health to give more land to the labourer.

There is full power under the law as it stands at present to increase the plot attached to a labourer's cottage to one acre.

I know that.

I would not be in favour of extending that power at present. The tenants of labourers' cottages can apply to the Land Commission, as very often they do, and succeed in getting more land.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 14 and Section 15 agreed to.
SECTION 16.
(1) Where—
(a) a purchase scheme which applies to a cottage in a county health district is in force, and
(b) such cottage is occupied by a tenant who is—
(i) an agricultural labourer, or
(ii) the widow of a deceased agricultural labourer who before his death was the tenant of such cottage, or
(iii) a person who when he first became such tenant was an agricultural labourer, and
(c) no rent is due by such tenant in respect of his tenancy, such tenant may send an application to the board of health for such county health district for the transfer to him of the interest of such board of health in such cottage by means of a vesting order made under this Act.
(2) Every application under this section shall be in the prescribed form and shall contain the prescribed particulars.

I move amendment No. 9:—

To delete sub-section (1) and substitute the following two new subsections:—

(1) Where—

(a) a purchase scheme which applies to a cottage in a county health district is in force, and

(b) such cottage is occupied by a person who is a qualified person, and

(c) no rent is due in respect of such cottage,

such person may send an application to the board of health for such country health district for the transfer to him of the interest of such board of health by means of a vesting order made under this Act.

(2) Each of the following persons shall, for the purposes of this section, be a qualified person in relation to a cottage, that is to say:—

(a) a person—

(i) who is the tenant of such cottage, and

(ii) who either is an agricultural labourer or was, when he first became tenant, an agricultural labourer;

(b) a person—

(i) who is the widow, child or other relative of a person who, at the date of his death, was tenant of such cottage and who either was, at the date of his death, an agricultural labourer or was, when he first became tenant, an agricultural labourer, and

(ii) who was at the date of the death resident in such cottage, and

(iii) who is declared by the board of health, in whose county health district such cottage is situate, to be a qualified person.

This amendment is intended to meet a number of points that were made during the discussion on the Second Reading in order to clear up all doubts as regards the position of those who would be entitled to purchase their cottages. The section in the Bill confines the right to purchase to an agricultural labourer, the widow of a deceased agricultural labourer or a person who, when he first became such tenant, was an agricultural labourer. The amendment down in my name will extend the section to a person who is a widow, child or other relative of a person who at the date of his death was tenant of such cottage and who either was at the date of his death an agricultural labourer or was when he first became a tenant, an agricultural labourer. I think it is a desirable amendment. As far as I could gather from the discussion on the Second Reading it is one which the House desires to have inserted.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 10 not moved.
Section 16, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 17.

I move amendment No. 11:—

Before Section 17 to insert the following new section:—

(1) When there is due in respect of rent arising out of the occupation of a cottage a sum exceeding the amount of the weekly rent of such cottage multiplied by thirty and the Board of Health consider it expedient to include in a purchase scheme any cottage which if no rent were due by the tenant of such cottage would be so included it shall be lawful for the Board of Health at their discretion to do either of the things following, that is to say:—

(a) remit the amount of the rent due, or

(b) provide in the purchase scheme that the amount of the rent due shall be deemed to be a sum due in respect of the annuity payable in respect of such cottage.

(2) Whenever a Board of Health determines in accordance with the provisions of paragraph (b) of the immediately preceding sub-section of this section to regard as a sum due in respect of the annuity payable in respect of a cottage the rent due arising out of the tenancy of such cottage the said sum shall be payable as part of the annuity in equal weekly amounts spread over the whole period during which such annuity is to be paid.

The purpose of this amendment is to make some provision for a number of tenants who might be desirous of participating in a scheme but who might find that that is impossible because of the accumulation of arrears. Deputies will observe that there are alternative proposals in the amendment. The first proposal gives the boards of health power to remit the amount of the rent due or alternatively to incorporate the arrears in the annuity to be subsequently paid. In other words, to fund the arrears. The principle underlying the alternative to the original proposal is well established already in the Land Acts and there is, I think, a well-known precedent for this proposal as to arrears. In certain counties at the same time the arrears of rent are fairly heavy. The amount outstanding in Dublin is small but in Cavan, Cork, Clare and Kerry the average amounts outstanding would be very much higher. In Cork the arrears are 21/- per cottage; Clare, 70/8; and Kerry, £7 5s. 7d. per cottage. It would be utterly impossible for a very long time to avail of the provisions of the Bill in the case of a number of tenants but my amendment would provide an easy method of regularising the position and giving the tenants an opportunity of participating in the purchase scheme on fairly reasonable terms. It would be a very useful arrangement to make in regard to tenants who owe sums like those I have mentioned. The amendment would give them an opportunity of paying that over the period that the annuity would have to run, or over a portion of that period. I think that in a number of cases the Minister ought to consider giving the boards of health power to remit entirely.

There is another aspect of this case that I think is related to the viewpoint underlying the amendment. Boards of health in many cases have collected rents or have imposed obligations for rent on tenants who are not liable. In many counties there is a practice of asking the incoming tenant to be responsible for the arrears that have accrued during the previous tenancy. In the anxiety to obtain possession of a cottage the successful applicant has entered into the liability of paying the arrears, although there might be very little hope of his honouring that obligation. To such people is due the need for doing something to rid them of that obligation. Having regard to the recent reply by the Minister to Deputy Keyes, I am well aware of the fact that boards of health cannot legally collect these arrears, but there are ways of making it difficult for the applicant for a cottage to refuse. I have frequently seen cases where the boards of health give preference to the applicant who agrees to accept liability for the arrears. I suggest to the Minister that one or other of the proposals, certainly the first in a number of cases, should be accepted. The second proposal would give an opportunity of providing reasonable means to tenants who desire to benefit under this scheme to do so, so that they could come in on equal terms with those who may be more fortunate. Tenants of labourers' cottages generally are desirous of meeting their obligations, but there are many reasons in certain circumstances why it has not been found possible for them to do so. I think, having regard to the well-known precedents that exist for arrangements of this kind, that the Minister ought to entertain the proposal contained in the amendment.

I should like to support the statement made by Deputy Murphy with regard to this. It should be emphasised, of course, that what we are asking for here is that it should be left to the discretion of the board of health as to whether this concession will be granted. By doing that, of course, there will be a certain check. There is no doubt that the figures for arrears of rent in certain counties are rather alarming. There must be some reason peculiar to these particular counties, as it is not general. I have no doubt whatever that there are certain cottage-holders in arrears, if you like, through carelessness or otherwise. But I believe that the vast majority are in arrears through no fault of their own, many of them, who have large families, perhaps through long periods of sickness or unemployment, and a certain number at least for the reason that Deputy Murphy has advanced, that in order to obtain possession of these cottages they had to undertake the liability for meeting substantial arrears left by the outgoing tenants. I know the Minister does not stand for that. He said more than once that there was no legal authority for it. Apart from its legality, however, it is the practice in a great many counties. It is a very unfair practice, to say the least of it. The Minister and the House would be well advised to accept the suggestion contained in the amendment. I think we can depend upon the members of the boards of health, with their knowledge of local conditions which we have not here, to investigate the claims and the applications and deal with them either under (a) or (b). Probably most of them would be dealt with under (b), and some of them may be met under (a).

I realise, of course, that there is the other side of the case, that there is a danger that people who, if you like, avoided the obligation of meeting their rent, are going to get preferential treatment as against those who faced up to their responsibility and paid their rents in full. I do think we can carry that too far. That is the reason I say it should be left to the discretion of the boards of health, because I am satisfied that, in the majority of cases anyway, taking the State as a whole—as I said, there may be special reasons in a particular county—these arrears have accrued through the inability of tenants to meet them, that they accrued probably during a period of illness or unemployment. It would be a hardship on these people if that was to be held against them.

I also urge the Minister to accept the amendment. I personally know of cases where arrears of rent up to £15 and £20 have been handed over with the cottages to the incoming tenants. It is very hard to blame the board of health, who are anxious to incur as little loss as possible for the ratepayers. These arrears were to be paid at the rate of 2/6 per week, and in a great many cases have not been paid off. I should like to point out to the Minister that if he does not accept the proposal, the purchase scheme is going to be a piecemeal one —only one or two out of every ten cottages will be purchased, the purchase in the other cases being held up owing to arrears. As I say, you will have a patchwork scheme of purchase all over the country. To my mind, the difficulties in the way already are numerous enough without adding this difficulty of arrears.

I honestly think that this proposal ought to be accepted. I do not know whether it would be wise in some cases to leave it to the board of health, but I would urge that something of this nature should be done, and that the arrears should be either wiped out or funded. It is the only way in which you can meet these particular cases, otherwise you will have a patchwork purchase scheme which will be dragging along from year to year, judging by the way the arrears stand at present. It will be just as bad as the old Land Acts, because so long as there are arrears on a cottage that cottage cannot be purchased unless the tenant pays up the arrears. If this was done, there would be undoubtedly an incentive in some cases to the sale of cottages. I have looked up the arrears sheet as a member of the South Cork Board of Health, and it will mean that only two or three cottages out of every ten will be purchased if the Bill is passed as it stands. We are anxious to have a clean sheet as far as possible— to get the purchase scheme through. I honestly think that any loss that would be entailed on the ratepayers by so doing would be more than met by the relief which this purchase scheme would give to the ratepayers.

Why do you not pay the rents in Cork as well as they do in every decent county?

I do not know whether your county has a clean sheet to show.

One of the reasons why the rents were not paid so well in Cork is that the unfortunate labourers were penalised very much for the past two or three years because the miserable pittance they got in wages was reduced in some cases by 50 per cent. just because this Government was in office.

Seventy per cent. of them?

The wages in some cases were reduced by 50 per cent.

I thought the Deputy said that 70 per cent. were in arrears.

I said their wages were reduced by 50 per cent. just because the Party opposite did not come out on top and the labourers were blamed for that. I consider that this Bill is only a very small instalment of what is due to these labourers. I certainly would suggest that the Minister ought to accept the amendment. The boards of health will have trouble enough in preparing purchase schemes without this added question of who is going to be allowed to purchase or who is not going to be allowed owing to arrears of rent. To my mind, this is the most feasible way of meeting the difficulty.

Whatever sympathy I had with the last amendment, which we discussed at considerable length, as to the reduction in the rate of annuity, I have none with this amendment. I think it is, morally speaking, an entirely wrong principle. It would introduce a differentiation between those who have loyally and justly met their obligations and those who have not. I think the principle is bad. If we are to encourage people, as I think we will be encouraging them, to become the owners of their own cottages and plots, we ought not to give preferential treatment in that scheme to those who have failed to meet their obligations up to the present and, in many cases, failed through their own fault, I believe. I have here before me a return of arrears of cottage rents in all the counties of the Saorstát. When one looks at that return and compares county with county, and parts of one county with other parts of the same county, one is driven to the conclusion that it is not because of inability to pay that there are arrears, but for some other reason.

Deputy Corry referred to Deputy Davin's constituency or to part of his constituency, Laoighis. I do not imagine that the labourers in Laoighis, taking them all round, are much better off than those in South and West Cork. They are probably no better off than the labourers in South Cork. I am sure, that, taken as a whole, they are no better off. But according to this return, while there were 1,522 cottages built in Laoighis there is not one penny due. Is not that very creditable? And almost equally creditable is West Cork, where there are 1,346 cottages and only £636 due. That is very creditable. Who will tell me that the labourers in West Cork are better able to pay their rent than those in North Cork? I could not believe it. The same applies in Kerry, where the payment is simply a disgrace. No other word can be used for it. No one will deny that the County Cavan is a poor county. The labourers there are as poor as the average agricultural labourer. In Cavan there are 996 cottages and only £604 due. That is creditable. Taken on the average the probability is that those people in Cavan, who owe only £604, suffer from the same disabilities as Deputy Morrissey pointed out, such as periods of sickness or unemployment or things of that kind, just the same as other labourers. It is reasonable to expect that there should be some arrears in any county.

Carlow is a prosperous county as a whole. I do not know whether the agricultural labourers there are better paid than in other counties. They may not be better paid than the labourers in counties, not so rich, but there is nothing due in Carlow. There is very little due in Roscommon, part of which is very rich land, but whether the richest lands pay the best wages to labourers I cannot say. Parts of Roscommon are very good and parts bad but the fact remains that while they have 719 cottages there, only £228 is due in arrears. That is very creditable. The list I have before me conveys to me the impression that there is better organisation for the collection of rents in some parts of the country than in others. It may be a question whether the authorities or their collectors do their duty when rents are available. I am sure and certain that the labourers generally want to meet their obligations. Frequently it happens that collections are neglected; rents are not called for at the time when the labourers have them to pay, and, then, when they are called for later they have been spent, possibly, for some legitimate purpose. Deputy Belton probably knows conditions in County Dublin. There, 2,607 cottages were built, and the arrears due amount only to £379. That is very creditable. It is far better than in some other parts of the country.

That is because there is a good council.

If the council had its way they would not pay much.

I did not think that was the Minister's opinion of it.

It is the wrong council. But, on the whole, Dublin County farmers pay fairly decent wages, so far as I know, and I think the council approves of that. That is what this list conveys to me, and I am prepared to give a copy of the list to any Deputy who wants it. The labourers in this country pay fairly well, and are reasonable people, and meet their obligations. I think it would be quite unfair to the decent labourers to allow the scamp to get away. It would not be fair to the people who pay their rents, although it may be very hard for them to do so, small as the rent is, to let the scamp get away free. I do not think it would be a wise thing to do from the purely moral standpoint; it would not be wise or proper to allow such people to get off.

I am not sure whether the Minister, when he emphasises the moral side of the meaning of this amendment, is aware that the same principle is contained in a section of the Land Act, 1933.

I am well aware of it.

If the Minister turns to the discussion on that section of the Act of 1933, he will find that I emphatically opposed the inclusion of that amendment in the Act of 1933. If the Minister and his Party thought fit to insist upon the insertion of an amendment, containing the same principle and penalising the taxpayers to the extent of £250,000, at the time, I do not see what is wrong in accepting this amendment now and giving similar benefits to the cottage tenants to-day. I dislike being a party to any legislation that will allow the dodger to shift his responsibility, and pass it on to his next door neighbour, whether he be a farmer who fails to pay his annuities or a cottage tenant who fails to pay his rent. I think it was the present Minister for Defence, then acting for the Minister for Lands, who put forward strong arguments for the insertion of such an amendment into the Land Act of 1933. I do not see why the Minister for Local Government who voted for such an amendment in the Land Act of 1933 should be so emphatically opposed to this amendment.

This amendment is, in fact, copied from the Land Act, 1933. I know it is a fact, and I am delighted to see that the cottage tenants of Laoighis have not attempted in the past four or five years to pass on their responsibilities to anyone else. A strong point in favour of this amendment was mentioned by Deputy Corry, that unless something of this kind is done—I am in favour of the funding side rather than the remission side—I can see that in the counties where there are numbers of tenants in arrears this Bill, when it becomes an Act, will be inoperative. I suggest there is a strong case in favour of that part of the amendment which asks the Minister to agree to a funding of the arrears, and I prefer funding to total remission.

If there is a bad principle involved in this proposal, there is, I think, a very good precedent for it. This Bill is going to be judged side by side with what was done for the farmer. If collections are as good as the Minister states all over the country, he will not be giving away much. If there are a few bad spots here and there, due, as the Minister said, not to the tenants but to bad organisation—collectors not calling when they should call—the tenant should not be blamed and nailed for that. I wonder how we are going to get over the difficulty which has prevailed all over the country, and, to my knowledge, in South Cork for a long number of years, where a cottage on which arrears of rent were due was given to a new tenant, who was assessed for the arrears, sometimes to the extent of £15 or £20. Is that unfortunate man to be kept from purchasing because of the arrears which he inherited? Is the unfortunate man who fell into arrears because of sickness or bad collection to be deprived of the little benefits that are conferred by the Bill? I suggest to the Minister that if the Bill is to be a success—as we all hope it will be—he should give way on this question and enable the purchase scheme to go through. If there is not to be a funding arrangement, I wonder how the Minister or his advisers expect an unfortunate tenant to find £10 when he could not find 1/- per week rent. A large number of these tenants are widows, whose husbands were farm labourers. Some of them are rearing young families on home assistance. Where are they to find the lump sums to purchase their cottages and be on an equality with their neighbours? I honestly think that the Minister ought to give way on this amendment. If there is a bad principle involved, it is a principle that was supported by the Minister himself in the 1933 Act, when this was done for the farmers.

And the same fellows are in arrears to-day.

A lot of them could pay better than these unfortunate fellows can pay. The Minister does not blame the labourers, except in a few cases, for the arrears. He says that the organisation was bad, and that the arrears are due to collectors not calling when they should call and calling when they should not call. The boards of health will be responsible for working this scheme and it should be left to their judgment as to whether a man is a "welsher" or not. They should be able to judge whether there is a proper system of collection or not. I think the matter should be left like that instead of introducing a cut-and-dry product from a Department.

There is one point which I should like to put before the Minister in support of the amendment. The Minister deduces from the fact that there is inequality in payment of the cottage rents even in the same county that those who are black-sheep must necessarily be black of their own volition and that those who are white are perfectly honourable. On the same reasoning, you could not get any solution of that kind of problem. In all counties, there are some people more fortunate in securing employment than others. Those who did secure employment are reflected in the good payments. Many tenants in the various counties who would be equally willing to pay their arrears may not have been able to do so because of lack of employment. In many cases, workers under county councils had to wait for months for the moneys due to them. I know cases in my county where proceedings were taken against cottage tenants for failure to pay rents of £3, £4, or £5 at a time when considerably more than two or three times those amounts were due to them by the county council and they had no chance of receiving payment for three or four months to come.

What was that money due for?

For work performed.

Yes. That occurred in my own county, and several other counties were in a similar position. In County Limerick eviction proceedings were brought at a time when more than twice the amount of cottage arrears were due as wages by the local authority to the tenants. I know that some of those tenants who are in arrear are perfectly honourable men. They would not willingly owe a shilling to anybody. Some of them have large families and big responsibilities. I do not stand for the fellow who wilfully shirks the payment of his cottage rent, but I think that some consideration should be shown to the man who is deserving of it and who, through no fault of his own, finds himself in arrears.

I have sympathy of a different kind for those who have been trapped under an illegal pretence by various boards of health into shouldering liabilities of from £15 to £20. That is a most undesirable practice, and it is still being carried on, notwithstanding that the Minister has stated on more than one occasion that he would notify boards of health that they had no legal authority to collect those arrears. He made that statement in reply to a Parliamentary question by me. Still, that practice is going on and there is no sign of its diminishing. That would represent a good deal of the arrears. People went into these cottages and undertook to pay £15 or £20 or £30 which was due by the outgoing tenant. I am not so much in sympathy with a tenant of that kind as I am with the man who legitimately finds himself in arrear because of illness or lack of employment. Surely power should be given to the boards of health to exercise a discreation and to segregate these cases from those of the really bad tenants.

Under the second proposal in this amendment, no hardship will accure to anybody if the arrears are funded over the period of the purchase. I think that that is a reasonable and a fair proposition. There are plenty of opportunities to deal drastically with persons who deserve to be so dealt with, while permitting the beneficent provisions of this Bill to be extended to those tenants who have been so long looking forward to them. If the Minister cannot see his way to accept the amendment in full. I think he should intimate to the House that he is prepared to bring in some other proposal that will at least cover the second portion of the amendment and provide opportunities for funding. By that means justice and equity would be done, and those who would have the working of the Act would be spared a great deal of dissatisfaction. If the Minister cannot accept the amendment in its entirely, I ask him not to turn it down flat, thereby depriving some of the most deserving tenants, who through misfortune have fallen into arrear, of the benefits of this long-sought purchase measure. If he cannot accept the amendment in its entirety, I hope he will indicate that he has sufficient interest in the working of the measure and sufficient sympathy with the boards of health, who are to be asked to draft schemes, to remove this difficulty and to enable these boards to exercise a discretion so that tenants be enabled to pay the arrears over the period of purchase.

I shall consider the funding proposition, but I do not want Deputies to understand that I am making any promise. I move to report progress.

Progress reported.

Will this Bill be proceeded with to-morrow?

I cannot say. The Budget will probably occupy the greater part of the time to-morrow.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 13th May, 1936.

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