Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 25 Jun 1936

Vol. 63 No. 3

Public Business. - Bread (Regulation of Prices) Bill, 1936—Second Stage.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I move that this Bill be now read a Second Time. On the 17th May, 1933, I referred to the Prices Commission the question whether unreasonably high retail prices were being charged throughout Saorstát Eireann for bread, wholesale or retail, made from wheaten flour or wheaten meal. The Commission, in pursuance of that requisition, carried out an investigation and made a report, dated 21st August, 1935, which has been laid before the Oireachtas. The Commission reported on the price of fancy as well as on the prices of batch bread, and found that both wholesale and retail prices of batch bread were, in a number of cases, unreasonably high, but that the prices of fancy bread, save where sold retail in a baker's shop, were not excessive. They also drew attention to the fact that there was a considerable difference between prices charged for bread in different areas, and they considered that there was no justification for such difference.

The Commission made a recommendation that the price of bread should be calculated by reference to the price of flour, and they set out in their report a scale of charges which they deemed reasonable and which might not, justifiably, be exceeded. In accordance with the provisions of the Control of Prices Act, the Commission, as a first step towards fixing the maximum prices mentioned in the report, issued a public notice, under Section 25 of that Act, stating that the prices indicated by them should not be exceeded throughout the Saorstat and requiring bakers to reduce their prices before a date in August, 1935. That notice was ignored by bakers in general, and the Commission, accordingly, recommended that I should make an Order under the Control of Prices Act fixing the maximum retail and wholesale prices of the commodity in question, and that such Order should apply to the entire area of Saorstát Eireann.

Certain legal difficulties, however, arose in giving effect to the recommendation of the Prices Commission. The principal of these difficulties was that the Control of Prices Act gave the Minister for Industry and Commerce no power to fix the price of flour, and, secondly, the Commission had been asked to report upon the price of bread and reported on both batch bread and fancy bread, which are, in effect, two different commodities. These difficulties, which arose in connection with the Commission's report on bread, were of a character similar to other difficulties which arose out of other investigations carried out by the Prices Commission, as a result of which it was decided to introduce proposals for legislation to amend the Control of Prices Act, and these proposals are now being prepared and will, in due course, be submitted to the Dáil.

It was considered, however, that the question of bread prices was one of urgency, and that a special Bill dealing with that matter should be brought forward, it being considered that, in any event, it was desirable that there should be on the Statutes of the Dáil an Act conferring powers to regulate the price of bread, which could be utilised whenever circumstances seemed to require the exercise of such powers— bread being put in that important position by reason of its importance in the dietary of the people. This Bill, therefore, is being submitted to the Dáil. It is, as Deputies who have read it are aware, merely an enabling Bill. It provides that the maximum prices at which bread may be sold in any specified area may be fixed by order. Different prices may be fixed for different kinds of bread and for different methods of delivery, such as delivery in the baker's shop, delivery in a retail shop, or delivery to a householder at his own door. As flour is not only the main factor in the cost of the loaf, but is also subject to frequent variations in prices, it is proposed, in making the Order, to relate the price of the loaf to the prevailing price of bakers' flour.

Section 2 of the Bill provides for the publication, from time to time, of a standard price of flour in relation to which the price of bread will be fixed. In arriving at such standard price of flour, the Flour Milling Advisory Committee, established under the Cereals Act of 1933, will be consulted. Certain consequential provisions had to be made in order to ensure that the main purpose of the Bill would be effected. In fact, the two matters to which I have referred give, in broad outline, the purport of the measure. Firstly, a standard price for flour is to be determined and published. In relation to that standard price, the maximum price which may be charged for bread under various circumstances may be fixed by Order. However, in order to prevent a reduction in the weight of the loaf, consequent upon a reduction in prices made in pursuance of an Order. made under the Bill it was found necessary to provide special powers as regards the weight of the loaf. According to the existing law bread must be sold by weight, and it would be difficult to detect the offence of overcharging so long as bread was sold in weights involving fractions of a pound, particularly in the case of vanmen, who are not obliged to weigh bread for customers.

Section 4 gives to the Minister for Industry and Commerce power to prohibit the sale of bread otherwise than in loaves of 1 lb. in weight or multiples of 1 lb. The services of weights and measures inspectors will be availed of to ensure that Orders made under that section are observed. The detection of the offence of overcharging will be in the hands of members of the Gárda Síochána, who will not, however, be concerned with the weight of the bread, but will assume that the loaf is expressed to be sold in terms of pounds weight, and who will report on the prices charged as a price per pound. Penalties for offences under the Bill are set out in Section 7. I stated that I considered it desirable that an Act providing the powers contemplated by this Bill should be on the Statute Book, irrespective of the circumstances; powers that could be used at any time if circumstances called for their use. Obviously, it is desirable we should enact such a measure, when we had from the Prices Commission a report, which indicates that during the period covered by their investigation, at any rate, in certain parts of the country, an unreasonably high price prevailed for bread. It is quite true that that situation did not exist in all areas.

In the City of Dublin, for example, the price charged during the period covered by the investigation was in conformity with the price fixed by the Prices Commission, having regard to the price of flour prevailing during that period. In other areas—the Commission made particular reference to the City of Cork—the price of bread was considered by them to be unduly high and, consequently, if that situation is not changed by the time the Bill becomes law, I would propose to make use of the powers conferred in it, in order to fix such maximum prices as would be justified by the circumstances then existing, that is by the price of bakers' flour then prevailing. The Commission set out their opinion of the various allowances that should be made to cover expenses additional to the price of flour, which arise in the production and distribution of bread, and also for the margin of profit which should be allowed the baker. It is true that some bakers expressed the opinion at the time the Commission published the notice in August of last year, that the price contemplated by the Commission would not be sufficient to yield them a profit. Some of them even said that bread baked and sold at these prices would be sold at a loss. I must say that I was by no means convinced by the representations they made, but I draw attention to the fact, that in many parts of the country the price contemplated by the Commission was, in fact, the prevailing price, and in some parts the prevailing price was even lower than the maximum price the Commission thought justifiable. On that account, it is difficult to understand why in particular areas higher prices should be charged. Possibly, the price of bread in all areas will be rectified by the action of the Bakers' Association before the Bill becomes law, in which case the powers of the Bill will not be utilised. It is desirable to have them in any event, so that any upward movement not justified by circumstances in the price of bread could be checked.

For the sake of clarifying the position for Deputies, I should say that if it were considered necessary to use the powers conferred in the Bill, and to make an order fixing the price of bread, I would propose, of course, to fix these maximum prices in accordance with the calculations adopted by the Commission and in accordance with their recommendations as to how these prices should be related to the standard price of bakers' flour. I am aware that members of the Commission, to which were added for the purposes of this investigation five additional members, whose names are set out in the report, went into this matter with great thoroughness, spent considerable time on the investigation, and prepared the report with great care, having satisfied themselves that their recommendation was a just one, and that bread sold at the price fixed by them, have regard to the price of flour at that time, would be sold at a fair price and give a fair profit to the bakers. In my opinion, nothing which was said in the Press at the time in any way shook that contention. It was my conviction that their conclusions were sound and were supported by the fact that they bore a great similarity to the conclusions of the Food Prices Tribunal which was established in 1926 and reported in the following year. Their method of approach to an examination of bread prices was similar to that adopted by the present Commission, and their conclusions were much the same.

It is true that in the cities some part of the uneconomic cost of bread, particularly when delivered to householders, is due to overlapping in the systems of distribution adopted by various bakers. It is difficult to contemplate the rationalisation of the method of distribution as a result of State action. The Master Bakers' Association in Dublin have stated that they have given the matter very close attention, and have been unable to devise a satisfactory system of preventing unnecessary overlapping in distribution, but it is obviously a matter that should be tackled by them in the first instance, because the intervention of the State would be fraught with considerable difficulties, and I doubt if it would lead to satisfactory results. If, however, we provide a reasonable margin to cover costs of distribution, as is proposed by the Commission, then I think no difficulty will arise on that score, and, in any event, if bread is available for sale retail in shops, whether shops belonging to bakers or ordinary shops, at a fair price, and if the public are safeguarded against undue profiteering, that should be the main purpose of this legislation which I recommend to the Dáil.

General Mulcahy

The Minister appears before the House this evening in the rôle, more or less, of a Rip Van Winkle. He is dealing with a measure that was the subject of investigation by a Commission set up by him in May, 1933, and that reported in the case of Cork, and on the cost of wheaten flour, some time in July, 1934. That report lay in the Minister's office until October, and was printed and circulated in December, 1934. As the Minister stated, the Commission began their investigations in 1933 and reported on the price of bread in August, 1935. That report was printed in February of this year, but we had to wait until June to see it. We had to wait to see the report until the Minister introduced here a measure dealing with bread prices. In the meantime the people who are paying for flour and the people who are paying for bread have, to the knowledge of the Minister, every member of his Government and every responsible official in his Department, been paying hundreds of thousands of pounds more than they should be paying for a commodity that is one of the essentials of life.

The Minister makes out from time to time a cost-of-living index figure. In making out that cost-of-living index figure he takes into consideration the part that expenditure on bread and flour plays in the domestic budget of people whose expenditure he is considering. The expenditure on bread and flour is something slightly more than ten per cent. of the total domestic expenditure on the articles, the price of which goes to make up the cost-of-living index figure. The report on bread was in the Minister's hands about five or seven months before it was actually printed. At the time it was actually printed, the position in regard to the price of flour in this country was that Senator Total could state in the Seanad that flour could be bought at 4/6 per cwt. or 11/3 per sack less in Northern Ireland than in the Free State. If the difference between the cost of flour in Northern Ireland and the Free State was only 10/- per sack, it would mean that the people of the Free State on their consumption of flour would be paying £1,350,000 more per annum than they would have to pay if they were living on the other side of the Border. The circumstances were that between July, 1934, when the first report on flour was issued, and February, 1936, when the report on bread was sent for printing, the cost of household flour in Dublin had risen by 11/6 per sack. For flour alone, used either as such or as the basis for bread-making, the people of the Free State were paying £1,350,000, perhaps £1,500,000, more than they would have to pay if they were living on the other side of the Border. Not only were they paying that during the last couple of years while the Minister was sleeping over the information he had got from the committee he set up, but he also knew from the report that was made to him in July, 1934, that the millers who are handling this flour were responsible unnecessarily for a very considerable part of the overcharge. The report states on page 35 that the millers in the first quarter of the year 1934 made £34,640 more in profits than the committee considered reasonable. That report has been with the Minister since July, 1934.

Apart altogether from other matters involving an increase in the price of flour, the millers were making exorbitant profits, profits above those which the committee thought reasonable. As well as that, the Minister apparently has been in full possession of information that bakers are making unreasonable profits. If may recollection is right, the answer of some of the bakers to the suggestion that they should reduce their prices, which were considered unreasonably high, was that they further increased the price of bread. There have been cases where either on the eve of getting a recommendation that they should reduce the price of bread, or on the morrow of getting it, they raised the price of bread 1d. and the Minister has been a Rip Van Winkle all the time since July, 1934.

Mr. Lemass

Does the Deputy think that is too long?

General Mulcahy

I think it is a very long time.

Mr. Lemass

Would the Deputy explain to me why it was that his Government which received a report that the price of bread was too high in 1926 took no action on it at all?

General Mulcahy

There were certain reasons for that, but there was this reason in particular, if the Minister wants to have it: At that time the people were not called upon to pay through the nose for every item in the domestic budget.

Mr. Lemass

They were paying more than they are now.

General Mulcahy

The previous Government did not go into their houses and put five per cent. on their wallpaper. They did not put a tariff on their rice, on the mugs on their dressers or on the linoleum which they put on the floor.

Mr. Lemass

But the cost of living was about 20 per cent. higher.

General Mulcahy

There was no one who had to call the attention of the Government of the time to the fact that the farmers were not able to pay their labourers more than 10/- per week. There was no County Committee of Agriculture pointing out to the Government that married agricultural labourers were only getting 8/- per week. That situation did not exist.

Mr. Lemass

It does not exist now, either.

General Mulcahy

The Minister has had documentary evidence of the fact that it does. A situation exists now that did not exist then, and it is that the people of the Free State are paying £1,500,000 more for the flour they consume than they would have to pay if they were living on the other side of the Border. There was no circumstance like that existing at the time. The Minister in introducing this Bill has kept very carefully away from dealing with any figures with regard either to the cost of bread now or the cost of bread, as he thinks it should be. The Minister's attitude in regard to the Bill is that it is going to be used in terrorem. He gives the House the impression that he feels it can only be useful in terrorem rather than in actual application. He introduces this measure and says that he hopes that by the time it is passed it will not be necessary to use it. He does not make any attempt to explain what is his attitude on the present price of flour or why it is that the 4lb. loaf should cost 10d. in Dublin while it can be sold in the city of London for 7½d. He does not make any comment on the observation which the Commission has made, that they see no reason why there should be any difference in the price of the 4lb. loaf in cities such as Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Dublin. It has actually been pointed out by the Commission, at the time they were reporting, that the price of the 4lb. loaf in Cork and Waterford was 10d., in Dublin 8½d., and in Limerick 8d.

Since we have got that, the 4-lb loaf in Dublin has gone up three-halfpence, and in Cork it has gone up one penny. The Minister introduced this Bill in general terms. It is a kind of enabling Bill, like the Turf Bill. Again, like the Turf Bill, he hopes he will not have to use the Bread Bill this year. Will the Minister tell us the point to which he considers the 4-lb loaf should be bought, in Dublin, Waterford and Limerick, that would, to his mind, obviate the necessity for applying this measure in these cities this year?

Mr. Dillon

I ask the Minister how he is going to control the price of bread. Will he control the price charged to the shopkeepers by the bakers, or the price the shopkeepers charge to the consumer? I want to make this case to the Minister. I am going to go on the assumption that this Bill is not purely fraudulent, that it is not brought in for the purpose of deceiving the people of Dublin into the belief that the Minister is solicitous about the price of bread to the consumer, in order to get votes for his supporters at the Dublin municipal elections. Let me assume that the Minister is in earnest but is misled by those upon whom he depends for advice. On what principle are they going to reduce the price of bread to the consumers in Dublin, and the country, and at the same time collaborate with the Executive Council in carrying through their wheat scheme? Again I want to make this clear. The cereal legislation is entirely independent of such measures as have been taken, and were necessary, to protect the milling industry in this country.

Effective steps could be taken to protect the milling industry in this country and the result of that would be to raise the price of flour in this country, as compared with world prices, by about 3/-. I believe, taking into account tactical defence considerations, from the point of view of the country as a whole, and the social conditions, that a powerful case could be made for taking such steps as were necessary to maintain the Irish flour mills in production. But it cannot be too strongly emphasised that whatever steps were necessary to do that could be carried into effect at the expense of a rise in the price of flour of from 2/- to 3/- per sack. But then the Government confused the issue by introducing the cereals legislation requiring the millers to use a certain proportion of Irish wheat. They further confused the situation by introducing a maize-meal mixture scheme, which is largely operated by the millers, who are also flour millers. There you have a situation in which the price of flour in this country is raised by 11/- per sack as compared with world prices. I see the Chair is a little alarmed on hearing me alluding to the maize-meal scheme.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair remembers that we had the last of the cereals yesterday.

Mr. Dillon

Yes. But I am making a case that when millers complained of the Minister for Agriculture's Cereals Act and contended that it made the price of the mixture too high, they were told that they could make up the difference by increasing the price of flour, and that they could make representations to the Flour Millers' Association meeting, where the prices of flour are fixed for Saorstát Eireann. At any rate we have the situation in which the millers in this country are getting 11/- a sack more for flour than in England and in Northern Ireland. Messrs. Joseph Rank are getting 11/- a sack more for the flour he mills in Limerick than for the flour he mills in Liverpool.

Mr. Lemass

Perhaps he gives it away for nothing in Liverpool.

Mr. Dillon

I could not tell you what he does in Liverpool.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy might as well say that as anything else.

Mr. Dillon

All I know is that he is selling his flour milled in Liverpool f.o.b. 11/- cheaper than in Limerick.

Mr. Lemass

It is subsidised to the tune of 4/- a sack in Liverpool by the British Government.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister knows that is misleading. In Great Britain there is a system under which the miller pays into the pool 4/6 levy, in order to finance the purchase of British wheat Joseph Rank is one of the greatest millers in the world, and sells flour all over the world. With Spillers it is the same. They direct the entire milling power of Great Britain, and if the truth is known I think Rank controls Spillers as well, but I am not sure of that. His export price is the price at which we could buy flour in Liverpool.

Mr. Lemass

The price of flour is considerably lower now.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister will not deny that if we buy flour in Liverpool we could buy it 11/- cheaper than in Limerick.

Mr. Lemass

I would not say that.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister does not deny it, for when the Minister says "no" he means "yes."

Mrs. Concannon

It is like standing on one's head.

Mr. Dillon

Before Deputy Mrs. Concannon is much longer in the Fianna Fáil Party she will realise that if she wants to maintain her reason she will have to stand on her head. I want the House to bear in mind that the millers are required to use a certain percentage of native wheat, but there is no stipulation that native wheat is to be used in equal quantities in baker's flour and shop flour. What is happening is that the millers are using native wheat, exclusively, in shop flour. Of that I am sure. The majority of the millers are using none of the native wheat in baker's flour, with the result that they are manufacturing baker's flour out of raw material as cheaply as Joseph Rank and Spillers buy in Liverpool. Admittedly they are operating in smaller units, and in some cases in inland mills, which means additional freight charges. Allowing 3/- a sack for that extra charge they could manufacture flour for 3/- per sack more than Joseph Rank, but they are getting 11/- a sack more for that flour. They have to use native wheat in certain proportions which the Minister fixed; but it will be used in the shop flour. They make the case that they have to take this wheat, dry it and prepare it, and what they make on baker's flour they lose on shop flour, and it all comes out in the wash in the end. The fact is that the increased price of bread exclusively results from the increased price of flour to the baker who has to buy flour. Certain Deputies will remember that there are bakers in this city who are themselves millers. In fact, I think most of the bakers of the city are themselves millers but, in rural Ireland, very few bakers are millers. A rough guide is that 7/6 in the sack of flour represents an increase of a penny in the quartern loaf.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is speaking from memory. Quite obviously, he has not read the report.

Mr. Dillon

I may not have read the report, but I have been baking bread for the last 15 years.

Mr. Lemass

If the Deputy has been charging only a penny for every 7/6 increase in the price of flour, he has not been losing money.

Mr. Dillon

Per quartern loaf. Does the Minister know what a quartern loaf is?

Mr. Lemass

A 4-lb. loaf. The Deputy has been charging 1d. for every 7/6 increase in the price of flour. I am prepared to give him a halfpenny for every 4/- increase in the price of flour.

Mr. Dillon

Now we are getting some information.

Mr. Lemass

That is all printed, published and circulated to the Deputy free of charge.

Mr. Dillon

Now, we are beginning to discover the kind of information with which the unfortunate Minister is being bemused. I often thought that the poor man was being made a fool of but now we begin to realise how dangerous it is for bureaucrats to go rooting about in a business they do not understand. I saw the Minister being made a fool of on the Insurance Bill and I sympathise with him because insurance is a highly technical business and he could not be expected to understand it. I hope he now realises what an infant he is amongst people who understand the trade and how he can be used as an unconscious tool to do substantial injustice. The poor man is acting in good faith. It is just that he does not know what he is doing. He reminds me of a child who starts fiddling with a 50-guinea watch. When he has broken the balance, he goes to daddy and says, "See, daddy, what I have done!" Daddy does not enjoy this demonstration of his prowess at all. I am sure that Deputy Tom Kelly's constituents would not admire the Minister's intervention if the Deputy were to go down and tell them that it involved an increase of 1½d. in the quartern loaf.

Mr. T. Kelly

How do you know?

Mr. Dillon

I asked the Deputy a few times to go down to the corner of York Street and announce it and he said he would rather stay where he was.

Mr. Kelly

Perhaps you would come along with me.

Mr. Dillon

I was there last night. I asked Deputy Kelly and Deputy Briscoe to go down and tell them that they proposed to put 1½d. on the quartern loaf and Deputy Kelly said that he knew the people there for 40 years and he thought he was safer where he was. I think he is right. Does the Minister for Industry and Commerce seriously tell me that he is prepared to sanction an increase of 1½d. in the price of the quartern loaf for every 4/- increase in the price of flour?

Mr. Lemass

I refer the Deputy to the Report.

Mr. Dillon

I do not think that the Minister is discharging his duty. I think the House is entitled to know what he proposes to do and from whom he proposes to get advice. I say now that if the Minister will take 11/- off the price of flour, he can probably order every baker in this country to reduce the price of the quartern loaf by 1½d. If he takes 7/6 of the price of flour, he can probably order them to reduce the price of the quartern loaf by 1d. Unless he does that, if he orders them to reduce the price of bread, he will, on his own admission, be ordering them to make bread without profit. The price of flour is about 36/- ex-mill. I have not seen the price for about ten days and my memory is not quite clear. The price of bread, so far as I am aware, is 5d. per 2lb. loaf in the city of Dublin. Deputies will bear in mind that that is a price off which a discount is allowed to bread distributors by the bakers. The price of bread in North Roscommon is 8/- per dozen 2lb. loaves and it is selling across the counter at 4½d. There, competition is extremely keen. On the other hand, the expense of distribution is probably not as high as in the city. Let me put this fact before the House, because it has to be realised if you are going honestly to examine the price of bread in the City of Dublin. The people of Dublin bring part of the comparatively high cost of bread upon their own heads because everybody in Dublin has got accustomed to having the bread van come to their door and deliver one or two loaves. Anybody who has lived abroad knows that such a system does not obtain there. In Paris, the woman of the house goes out in the morning to the local baker, buys what bread she requires and brings it home in her basket. If you are living in America, you go to the bread shop, grocery store, or delicatessen, buy your bread and bring it home.

Mr. Kelly

There is a bread line there at present.

Mr. Dillon

Let us not start to discuss bread lines, soup kitchens or free beef, because Deputy Mrs. Concannon begins to blush when we start talking about these things. Let us stick strictly to bread. If people want their bread delivered in single leaves at their hall-door, they have got to pay for that. If they express their readiness to collect the bread at the baker's shop, they are entitled to an allowance for the trouble they are put to every morning in going to fetch it. In rural Ireland, bread is bought by the consumers at a shop and they themselves carry it home. There is no system of delivering one loaf into anybody's house. The bread is distributed through the medium of the smaller country shops.

A lot of people are confused by the two separate systems which obtain for fixing the price of bread in rural Ireland as compared with the cities. In Cork and Dublin, the price of bread is always quoted on the basis of the retail selling price. Those in the trade know that, in fact, what the baker gets is that retail selling price less the trade discount. In rural Ireland, prices are quoted on the basis of the wholesale price to the small shopkeeper, who usually charges a halfpenny per 2-lb. loaf for distribution. When one hears that the price of bread is 5/- in Cork and 4/- in rural Ireland, one must remember that there is a discount of 12½ per cent. or 15 per cent. to be taken into consideration, which would leave the net price to the baker in Cork 4/2. We know the price of bread to the baker in rural Ireland is 4/-.

I have had 15 years' experience of the bakery trade. I suppose I could reduce my costs if I paid lower wages or if I employed more machinery. Personally, I have always avoided that, I have avoided displacing men by machinery. I admit that in more modern and up-to-date bakeries there can be economy in the way of overhead charges by displacing men and substituting for skilled craftsmen machine dough mixers and automatic dividers. The point I want to put to the Minister is this, that while we must insist that the price of bread is kept at the lowest figure consistent with manufacturing and distribution costs, we have to be careful that we do not go too far because in saving the people a ¼d. in the price of the 2-lb. loaf we might drive a number of highly-skilled and well-paid craftsmen out of a job altogether. You can cut down the number of bakers very considerably by the introduction of up-to-date machinery, and you can replace the skilled men by common labourers. If you are operating automatic dough-mixers and dividers you will not want very many skilled men. You will only need a foreman and an oven-man and the present trained craftsmen will disappear.

Some of us in the bakery trade are still working by hand. Other bakers do some of their work by machinery and the rest by hand. There is a very small minority of bakers in this country who do the whole of the work by machinery. I do urge on the Minister most strongly to remember that if he acquires the powers that he is seeking under this Bill, he should not depend exclusively on bureaucratic officials to administer the Act because its consequences can be altogether too serious and grave for a very large section of the community. The purpose of this. Bill, if it is to be operated at all, should be to keep the price of bread at the lowest penny at which it can be efficiently produced. If the price of flour remains as it is to-day, in my opinion you cannot take a ¼d. off the price of the loaf. If, in spite of that, the Minister issues a ukase that a ¼d. or a ½d. must go off the loaf, what will happen is that the small bakers who are exclusively operating by hand will go to the wall and you will drive the larger bakers who are operating half by skilled men and half by machinery right over to machinery altogether.

The number of skilled bakers will be immediately reduced and the whole of the business will be done by machinery. In that case I do not think you will get as good quality bread as you are getting now. You may get it a shade cheaper, but you will have driven a lot of trained craftsmen out of employment and destroyed a large number of small industries throughout the country. I would ask the Minister to bear in mind that if he is going to lay down a flat price for bread whether it is manufactured by Peter Kennedy, of Dublin, who is a big baker, or by Pat Cawley in a country town who is baking six to ten sacks a week, the result will be that he will drive Pat Cawley to the wall and, it may be, out of business altogether. I remember a baker in Carrick-on-Shannon who baked only six sacks in the week and he always got 1d. a loaf more for his bread than his competitors got. He did not press it on his customers, who gladly paid 1d. a loaf more for his superior product. Now if we introduce a flat charge for everyone without regard to local conditions we may do a very grave injustice to a valuable element in our community who should not be interfered with in that way.

If the Minister is going to fix the price of bread, I put it to him that he must take adequate precautions to ensure that the correct weight is given. Deputies may forget that when they go to buy a 2 lb. loaf very few of them would be able to detect whether that loaf was 1½ ozs. under weight. If I make one dozen loaves of bread that are under weight to the extent of 1½ ozs. I have saved over a pound of bread in that dozen. If I am selling bread at 4d. a lb., that is going to give me a profit over and above my legitimate profit of 4d. a dozen. If a baker can get 4d. a dozen profit on bread, Deputies would be astonished at the figure that would reach in the whole year. If a baker in Dublin could get 4d. a dozen on bread it might be worth up to £3,000 a year to him. To the small baking-house in the country employing one or two men, 4d. a dozen on bread would be the difference between affluence and bankruptcy. I am afraid that we cannot escape the fact that in certain cases where competition is keen, the full weight is not being given. It is a very difficult thing to check the weight and to devise adequate formule for its checking.

The baker ought to put 2 lbs. 3½ ozs. of dough into the 2 lb. loaf if he wants to give fair weight to the person who buys the loaf from him. When that loaf comes out of the oven it ought to weigh 2 lbs. 1½ ozs. or 2 lbs. 1 oz., and it ought to weigh 2 lbs. ½ oz. at the end of 24 hours after coming out of the oven; after that time it ought to weigh 2 lbs. If it does shrink then you cannot make the baker liable. There is going to be a pious aspiration expressed by vested interests throughout the country before very long as to this matter of eating hot bread, and we will have the suggestion that on this occasion steps should be taken to prohibit the sale of hot bread. That campaign is going to be supported by the most pious expressions of solicitude for the public health. We will be told that the digestive organs of the youth of the country are going to be destroyed by eating hot bread. The purpose of that is that no one will be able to check the weight of the bread——

Mr. T. Kelly

We are destroyed here by hot air.

Mr. Dillon

——when it is cold. If the Minister fixes the price of bread without fixing the weight of the loaves he is going to find that the whole business is going to become a farce, and, instead of this precaution becoming a protection for the public, it will become a snare. How the Minister is going to secure that the proper weight of bread is given under the new price arrangements is a thing that I fail to see. Even with the best intention of always securing that your bread will be the full weight, it is an extremely difficult thing to see that intention carried out. How are you going to follow up the bread-vans around the country and take samples to ensure this? Deputies may think that once the price of bread is fixed it will be all right. That is not so. The Minister can only fix the price of plain loaves. Fancy bread need not be sold by weight, and it would be impossible for the Minister to stipulate that it must be sold by weight without disorganising the whole bakery trade and doing very much damage to that industry. So long as fancy bread is left free from control I fail to see how you can make price-fixing effective. I know, of course, that you can make anything effective against the person who wants to comply with the law, the person who, once the Minister makes an order, exerts himself to comply with it. But there is the person who does not want to comply with the law and who wants to get the benefit of short weight. I do not see how the Government can get at that person, because if he can be compelled to stick rigorously to the regulations governing plain bread, then he will simply go over into the sale of fancy bread and play fast and loose with that. Personally, I think the Bill is a fraud, that fraud is written upon it from the word "go." If there is 1d. extra on the price of bread here over and above what the price of bread is in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, every fraction of that 1d. is due to the increased price of bakers' flour which results from the activities of the Minister and his colleagues.

Mr. Bennett

There are one or two points which I should like the Minister to clear up in regard to this Bill. Deputy Dillon referred to the price of bread in Dublin. As far as I could understand the Minister's explanation of the Bill, he does not intend to interfere with the price of bread in Dublin. I think the Minister said he intended, if he did make an order, to proceed on the lines of the Commission's report, and that they had reported that bread prices in Dublin were not excessive.

Mr. Lemass

At the time they reported.

Mr. Bennett

Therefore, there will probably be no change in Dublin. The point I want to have cleared up is in regard to the intention as to the areas; whether the Minister proposes to fix the price for the whole State or divide it into several areas. If the Minister intends to fix the price for the whole State, he may possibly defeat the object that he intends to achieve, because obviously he could not fix it at the irreducible minimum. If he proceeds by areas, it may have the possible effect of raising the price in certain areas. For instance, Deputy Dillon pointed out that in certain places bread is ½d. cheaper than in others, and other Deputies probably could do the same. If, for instance, the Dublin area includes places within 30 or 40 miles of Dublin, where the smaller bakers are able to produce bread at less than the Dublin price, if the Minister fixes the maximum for that area at the price at which the Dublin bakers can produce it, it might mean that some of these smaller bakers would, in fact, be getting a higher price than they are charging at present. I do not say that is going to happen, but I want the Minister to try to clear up the difficulty for me. It appears to me that there will be a difficulty in operating the measure in regard to areas. I more or less agree with Deputy Dillon that any attempt made to regulate the price of bread or to reduce the price of bread, as long as flour cannot be considerably reduced in price, will end in failure. However, there may be a little success achieved and, so far as this Bill can be successful in making bread cheaper, I certainly heartily support it. I only hope that it will not prove to be difficult to operate in regard to the areas, and I should like the Minister to make some reference to his intention in regard to the areas when replying.

Mr. Dillon

Might I point out that the difference about the 1d. for 7/6 and ½d. for 4/- arises from a misapprehension? The Minister said 1d. for 4/-

Mr. Lemass

A halfpenny for 3/9 is what the Food Prices Commission of 1926 stated. However, let us come to the matters dealt with in the Bill. Deputy Mulcahy, of course, considers that we are open to criticism because we are only now acting upon a report received by us in August, 1935. It is a fair retort, if not strictly relevant to the question, that the previous Government got a report in 1926 and did not act upon it at all.

General Mulcahy

They did not allow a situation to exist by which, in a couple of years, the extra cost of the flour consumed in the country for bread and otherwise ran up by £1,500,000.

Mr. Lemass

I can only describe that statement in the expressive American term "boloney." In any event, in 1926 the price of bread was excessive, due to profiteering by the bakers—so a judicial committee, after taking evidence on the matter, reported—and nothing was done about it. There has been some delay in this case, but I have explained the circumstances of the delay. When we got the report of the Prices Commission recommending that an order should be made under the Prices Commission Act fixing the maximum price of bread, we proposed to do so. We found, however, that there were legal difficulties which I have explained. It took us some time to satisfy ourselves that there was no way around these legal difficulties other than by the introduction of legislation. We then proceeded to frame the legislation. That was not an easy task, because the difficulties which had made it impossible to act under the Control of Prices Act also made it difficult to frame this Bill. We have got over these difficulties, however, and here it is. I am quite satisfied that there has been no unreasonable or unnecessary delay in the taking of action upon the Prices Commission's report on the price of bread.

Of course, most of the discussion we had has been related to the price of flour. There are three things I want to say in relation to the price of flour, and then I will leave it. In the first place, it is utterly dishonest to compare the present internal price of flour here with the export price of British flour, and any Deputy who does that can have no intention other than the intention of misleading. Secondly, it is perhaps convenient for Deputies to forget the circumstances in relation to the flour-milling industry in Great Britain and in this country which prevailed formerly. In 1931 the flour-millers of this country, having been refused protection by the Government then in office, made an arrangement with the British flour-millers under which the British flour-millers were guaranteed a market for flour in this country to the extent of approximately 2,000,000 sacks of flour per year, and the British flour-milling industry, which had been reorganised by the British Flour-millers' Association, was planned upon the basis of a production of 2,000,000 sacks of flour for this country.

The change of Government changed that situation. The Irish millers' mutual arrangement with the British flour-millers was terminated and the importation of British flour into this country was stopped. There were, therefore, thrown on to the British market those 2,000,000 sacks of flour which were intended for this country, and the British flour-milling trade journals were filled every week with paragraphs and articles concerning the price-cutting which had been resumed in Great Britain. Therefore, I say that any attempt to compare the prevailing price of flour here with the internal price in Great Britain is also invalid. We could buy cheaper flour than we could make—there is no question about it. We could buy flour from Canada and we could buy flour from France cheaper than we can make it.

Mr. Dillon

Not of the same quality.

Mr. Lemass

Of course it is not the same quality. When Mr. Toal, or whoever it was Deputy Mulcahy quoted, stated that flour in Northern Ireland can be purchased at 11/- per sack cheaper than it can be purchased in the Free State, he was not referring to flour of the same quality.

Mr. Dillon

I am.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is doing nothing of the kind.

Mr. Dillon

I am.

Mr. Lemass

However, we will not get on to that now. I will go further and say this one other thing in relation to flour. Deputy Mulcahy stated that the Prices Commission reported that in the first quarter of 1934 the flour-millers made a profit of £34,000 in excess of what the Prices Commission considered would have been a reasonable profit. That statement can be made in a misleading manner, too, because the Prices Commission were referring to all the flour-millers, but they pointed out that some of the flour-milling companies did not make any profit at all, and that others of them made what the flour-millers considered to be a profit less than what would be regarded as reasonable. The Prices Commission made a recommendation for meeting that situation by an arrangement for taking some of the excess profits made by the larger mills and distributing them as a subsidy to the smaller mills. That was an arrangement which did not appeal to the Government.

There is, in relation to flour milling, a situation of considerable difficulty, and Deputies are not going to help us to solve that difficulty by these purely propagandist statements which they are making. I will admit at once that the price of flour here must be higher than the price at which we can import flour if we are going to grow our own wheat. I think it is a good policy to grow our own wheat. I know that Deputy Dillon thinks that it is madness to do so. I know that Deputies opposite have talked themselves into a position in which they do not believe it is happening; but, nevertheless, the majority of the people of this country, particularly the majority of the farmers, and certainly the Government of the country, consider that it is good national policy, viewed from any angle, to produce wheat to supply our own needs to whatever extent it can be done. If we are going to produce wheat, and to guarantee a price in order to get it grown and to give to the farmers a fair return for their labours, then we have got to be prepared to pay more for our flour than the price at which we can buy flour from abroad, and it is worth doing it at that price. Making all allowance for that, I am not satisfied with the price of flour, but in the circumstances in which you have big mills and small mills, port mills and country mills, it is not practicable to deal with the flour situation merely by fixing a price, and that is the whole difficulty of the position. That is why the Prices Commission Report had to contain a recommendation for this rather unusual arrangement of taxing one class of miller in order to subsidise another, because they saw that any system which would fix a fair price for certain mills in the country, such as the big port mills, would result in a price level being enforced which would put all the other mills out of business.

You can deal with that situation in a limited number of ways, all of which would involve very considerable changes. We got from the flour-millers an assurance that they would fix a price for flour in accordance with the formula contained in the Prices Commission Report. We have had for some time past very considerable doubts as to whether they were doing so or not, and the matter has been again under examination. In so far as that examination has proceeded, I am satisfied that they are not doing it, and that it will be necessary for us to take action in relation to the price of flour unless the flour-millers themselves adjust their prices to the Prices Commission formula. But I cannot see any action which would be effective which does not involve a change in the ownership of these flour mills.

Mr. Dillon

Why?

Mr. Lemass

Because there is no basis upon which the price of flour can be fixed that will at the same time secure the preservation of a very large number of the small country mills, and I think it is desirable that these mills should be preserved. However, we can discuss this flour question on another occasion. I am merely indicating that there are these difficulties, and that these can best be met by the flour-millers themselves doing what they contracted to do, and that is voluntarily to adjust their prices on the basis of the formula contained in the Prices Commission Report. If the flour-millers do not take that action it will be necessary to adopt another course which is going to involve very revolutionary changes in relation to the operation and control of the flour-milling industry here.

Having said all that, I want to say now, for the purposes of this discussion, that the price of flour has got nothing whatever to do with it. It is, of course, entirely fantastic to say that the price of bread, in so far as it is unduly high, is due to the price of flour when we have the Prices Commission Report saying that, in many parts of the country, the price of bread is unduly high because bakers are making undue profits.

Mr. Dillon

Where?

Mr. Lemass

In the City of Cork and elsewhere. I refer the Deputy to the Report of the Prices Commission. The Deputy also referred to the effect of a price-fixing Order on the smaller bakeries. The outstanding fact in the report is that in the smaller towns the price of bread is not excessive, except in some of them, and that the problem of unduly high prices for bread is one that is very largely confined to the cities. In any event, the Prices Commission Report also deals with that question of smaller bakeries, and justifies the maximum price fixed in relation to towns being applied to the country also. The Deputy spoke for about a quarter of an hour on the necessity for ensuring supervision over the weight of bread. I think the provisions in the Bill are quite adequate for that purpose, but perhaps the Deputy has not read them.

I do not think there is anything else that I need say arising out of the discussion. The Bill, when it becomes an Act, will give us power to fix the price of bread. We propose to exercise that power in accordance with the recommendation in the Report of the Prices Commission. If a situation should exist at any time after the Bill becomes law which would justify its use, that is, if excessive prices for bread are being charged in any part of the Saorstát, and it is in our opinion desirable that the powers placed at the disposal of the Executive Council should be used, then those powers will be used when the occasion demands, having regard to the importance of bread in the ordinary lives of the people.

Mr. Dillon

The Prices Commission recommended that there should be one price for bread sold over the counter and another price for bread delivered in the homes of the people. Does the Minister propose to adopt that recommendation? Does he also intend to have two different prices in country towns for bread —for bread sold over the counter and for bread delivered?

Mr. Lemass

The Bill provides for the various Orders that can be made. It provides for the making of Orders to determine the price of bread sold wholesale or retail—sold under the various circumstances set out in the Bill.

Mr. Dillon

I take it that there will be two prices in Dublin City: one for bread sold over the counter and another for bread delivered. Will the same procedure be adopted with regard to the retail price of bread in the rural parts of the country?

Mr. Lemass

If it is necessary to do so.

Mr. Dillon

Because I suggest that if that is not done a ridiculous situation will arise.

General Mulcahy

In connection with the Minister's reference to-day to the price of flour, I want to know from him if he will be prepared between now and the Committee Stage to indicate what he considers the price of the 4lb. loaf should be in the four cities of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford.

Mr. Lemass

That would involve fixing a standard price for flour.

General Mulcahy

But, surely, it is possible to arrive at a standard price for flour on the formula contained in the Prices Commission Report?

Mr. Lemass

Not under this Bill. As the Deputy has suggested, the standard price may not be the actual price for flour charged anywhere. The price will be fixed in consultation with the flour millers having regard to the prevailing price. The standard price will contain in it certain allowances which are referred to in the Report of the Prices Commission and which, in their opinion, make their calculation a valid one even though particular figures in it might be challenged.

General Mulcahy

The Minister has between this and the Committee Stage to think the matter over. If it is possible at any time in September, October, November or December of this year or next year to fix a standard price, surely it is possible to do so by the end of this month.

Mr. Lemass

I do not propose to consult the Flour Milling Advisory Committee on the matter.

General Mulcahy

Surely it ought to be possible to say what the price of the 4lb. loaf should be in the four cities I have referred to and I think that in dealing with a measure of this kind we ought to have a statement such as I have asked for.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, the 2nd of July.

The Dail adjourned at 10.34 p.m. until Friday, June the 26th, at 10.30 a.m.