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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 30 Jun 1936

Vol. 63 No. 5

Supplementary Estimate. - Vote 57—Industry and Commerce.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise na raghaidh thar £23,174 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1937, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála maraon le Coiste Comhairlitheach na Rátaí, agus Ildeontaisí i gCabhair.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £23,174 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1937, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including the Rates Advisory Committee, and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The Supplementary Estimate provides for the sum immediately required for the development of Clonsast bog. I mentioned some time ago in this House the intention to proceed with the development which arose as a result of the report made by a delegation which visited the Continent last year to investigate certain aspects of the turf industry and the further investigations pursued subsequently in the matter by the Turf Development Board. The Government came to the conclusion that we ought to endeavour to secure that a beginning would be made in the development of Irish bogs along the lines pursued by certain German companies on bogs in Germany. In principle, the method pursued is no different to that carried on by Sir John Grffith at his bog at Turraun for a number of years, but certain advances in practice and technique have been made, and it is intended to incorporate these into the efforts pursued along the same lines here. It is intended to undertake a large-scale development of Irish bogs along these lines, and, as a first step to that end, it is proposed to provide the Turf Development Board with the necessary capital to acquire and develop the bog known as Clonsast bog, which is situated about four miles north of Portarlington. That bog is about 4,000 acres in extent, and will be developed to provide for a production of about 120,000 tons per annum. It is estimated that the total capital required for the venture will be about £162,000, in addition to a sum of £33,000 for working capital. These sums will provide for the purchase of the bog, the purchase of the necessary machinery, the drainage of the bog, and the erection of buildings. Money will also be expended on the construction of bog railways and electrical power lines.

It is proposed to advance that money to the Turf Development Board at 4¾ per cent. interest, and the Board have undertaken to repay the money over a period of 25 years. In the selection of the bog and the planning of the operations the Board have had the technical assistance of a German expert familiar with the method of carrying out similar work in Germany. Drainage operations on the bog will commence at once. They have, in fact, commenced, but it will be about three years before the bog is likely to be in production. The sum now asked for in the Supplementary Estimate is to provide the cost of purchasing the bog, the cost of the initial drainage operations and for the erection of buildings. The Government has been impressed by the potentialities of this system of production as a method of lessening unemployment in many parts of the country. The work to be done at Clonsast will provide immediately employment for a number of people, which will increase in each year. In the course of the present year it is anticipated that an average of 130 men will be employed, increasing in the next year by 100, and in the third year to something less than 400 men. When the bog is in full production it is estimated that 600 men will be employed in seasonal operations and 200 permanently all the year round.

These figures should allay the idea that has been expressed in some quarters that the mechanical production of turf will displace labour. The turf machines macerate the turf, mixing the top and the bottom sods, and give a uniform quality of turf from the one bog, which it is not possible to obtain in hand-won turf. It is the Government's intention gradually to extend this system of production throughout the country, but it should be realised in that connection that before a bog can be proved suitable for the machine-winning of turf, an exceedingly detailed survey must be made both of the outfall drains of the bog, the quality of the turf and the floor bed of the bog. The Turf Board are endeavouring at present to secure suitable bogs for similar work in the west and south-west. It is their intention to extend their operations into those areas subsequently, but of course no part of the money now asked for is expenditure to cover any cost arising from such development. In fact, the amount of this Vote is intended to meet the initial cost arising in connection with Clonsast bog in Leix; the subsequent amount, up to the full sum I have mentioned, will be voted as required. The whole sum is repayable, and interest will be charged on advances of the various sums which are made available from the dates of the advances. The purpose is, as I have mentioned, to provide employment as required, and to establish here large scale operations on lines which have proved, where started, to have been successful, and which will result in a considerable extension in production.

The Minister indicated that he is taking £162,000 plus £33,000. Do I understand the whole of that money will be advanced at 4¾ per cent. and, that as well as paying interest, the original capital will be paid back also, and that the £23,000 we are voting now while paying interest will ultimately be paid back?

Exactly.

While this is only voting money in this particular way, money which is expected to be paid back, nevertheless, in view of the importance the Minister is attaching to the turf production industry, and in view of the importance which he no doubt attaches to a scheme involving so much money, which is to be expended in that way, we would like a little more information on the matter. Beyond the remarks he made at the end of his statement that the top of the turf bank is to be macerated and mixed with the bottom, we have no information at all as to what exactly is to be done. The Minister simply told us that there was a mission sent to Germany on this matter, and that they brought home something that impressed him. But we have no report as to what they saw, or what they propose. If the Minister is so impressed by them as to start this venture on which he is going to spend so much money, I think we ought to hear the outlines of this scheme. They told him that the top is to be macerated and mixed with the bottom, and the only thing he told us is that he is going to proceed along these lines which are adopted in Germany. He told us that that was not different, in purpose, from what was done at Turraun, but there was some difficulty in technique between what is done in Germany and what is done in Turraun. He told us that on the German lines there are going to be large scale operations carried out here. I think that in connection with an industry in respect of which so much is attempted here, and to which the Minister attaches so much importance, and in view of the vesting of so much capital money in the scheme, and the hope that it is going to be a definite industry in the country, we ought to hear a little more about the practice and the technique of the work, and we ought to get an outline of what exactly is going to happen to the bogs.

It would be difficult for me to give anything like the technical exposition of the work involved. It is similar in principle to that done at Turraun by Sir John Griffith. I do not know if the Deputy is familiar with what Sir John Griffith was doing at Turraun. He succeeded in producing a quality of fuel superior to the ordinary hand-produced turf, but it was only produced at a price which made it uneconomic in relation to hand-won turf and coal. Obviously it was necessary to have an examination into the question as to whether the method of working there could be modified so as to give better results. Very valuable work of an experimental nature was done. In fact, one of the recommendations was that Turraun should be acquired and extended and its operations carried on with greater financial resources than Sir John Griffith could make available and it was on that basis that an examination was undertaken. It was found that, subject to certain conditions—first, the carrying out of the operations on a larger scale than was possible at Turraun; second, the drainage of the bog in a more successful way than was achieved at Turraun, and, third, the utilisation of more up-to-date and efficient machinery than the Turraun machinery —it would be possible to get fuel produced superior in quality to the Turraun fuel and at a substantially lower price than was possible in the case of Turraun. It was with the knowledge that that was being done in Germany, and successfully done, that the delegates went there. They also went to Russia where large-scale turf development is occurring; but the nature of the peat in Russia is somewhat different from what it is here, and many of the mechanical methods adopted there would not be suitable or necessary in this country.

The German practice appeared to be more suitable to our conditions, and it is with the advice of German experts that the development at Clonsast was prepared. The process is mainly mechanical. A machine, which is specially constructed for the purpose, is run on rails over the bog. By a process of scooping the turf from the top and the bottom, simultaneously, it is macerated, pressed out and dried. The result is you get a better and more uniform fuel from the bog. By carrying on the production, on a large scale, by continual process during the season, costs can be kept down considerably so that the fuel can be made available at a cost that will make it very definitely attractive in regard to the price of other fuels with which it will be in competition. It is only in a certain class of bogs that this process can be carried on. There has to be a considerable extent of bog and the floor of the bog must be fairly even, which is not always the case. Strange as it may be, there are hills and hollows in the floors of bogs which would make it impossible to operate this machine at all. But given a bog of some extent, this process can be adapted and that is the reason we are proceeding to try it out. I grant that the bog at Clonsast is one that appears to be one of the most favourable in the country for this experiment. Possibly on that ground the success of the experiment made may not be a guarantee that that work done there would be equally successful on other bogs. But we feel when we get into the method, and gain the experiment that Clonsast will provide we will be able to adapt that knowledge to the circumstances and conditions of other bogs and that similar experiments can be carried out successfully in other areas.

I do not know that I asked anything unreasonable of the Minister. I think that he is treating the House in a most absurd way. If experts have gone to other countries and have made up their minds that it is worth while trying out a particular system here, surely the Minister must have got some form of report from them.

I am sorry I did not deal with that point. The Deputy referred to the possibility of the report being published. He will understand that it is not possible to do that when I say that the delegation were given information in confidence by private firms in Germany. That information was available to the Turf Development Board and to the Government, but it was obtained on condition that it would not be published. For that reason it is not possible to make the report of the delegation available to Deputies.

The report made to the Minister may not be in a form that would be suitable for placing in the Library and I should not ask for the publication of the report unless the Minister was prepared to recommend that course. I do think, however, that the report by the experts on the technical processes which are to be adopted here should be made available to the House. On the question of producing fuel that will compete with other fuels, we ought to get the calculations on which the experts, in asking the Minister to assist them in financing the scheme, based their contention that the price will be economic. I do not think that the Minister could expect anybody in the House to have any very close technical knowledge of what happened at Turraun. The only thing we do know about Turraun is that when the Board of Assistance in Dublin City wanted to get turf, at the time when money was available for supply of free turf, the Lord Mayor was able to have coal delivered to poor people at a smaller price than the Board of Public Assistance were able to deliver Turraun peat to them. That is the last information we had about the Turraun works, except that they went out of business because there was a preference for hand-won turf. I think it is quite reasonable to ask to have a technical memorandum dealing with the new scheme made available to Deputies. If the Minister wants interest taken in the scheme and if he wants the assistance of public opinion in carrying it out, I think he should comply with that request. To refuse to do so rather prejudices the Minister's position.

In a recent issue of the Trade Journal a report was published by one of the officers of the Turf Development Board, and that report contained a description, in some respects, of the work which is intended to be done at Clonsast. I shall look through that report and, if I think it can be amplified, I shall arrange for preparation of a memorandum. I admit that it is desirable that this should be done.

The Minister will relate the memorandum directly to what is being done here?

Question put and agreed to.
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