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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Nov 1936

Vol. 64 No. 3

Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, 1936—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This is a Bill to make certain amendments in the Vocational Education Act of 1930, amendments which have been found to be necessary in connection with the administration of that Act. The remedying of these defects is a matter of some urgency, and, accordingly, I have brought this Bill before the Dáil to remedy the defects in question. Section 2 of the Bill provides that a vocational education committee may, with the consent of the Minister for Education, sell or let any land which is vested in such committee. Under Section 28 of the Principal Act, the committee has power to acquire land. It has become apparent that it will be necessary that committees also should have power to sell or let land and the section provides that they will have this power in future. It will be observed that the amendment under Section 2 is to be retrospective as from the passing of the original Act in 1930. The reason is that in the interval there have been certain temporary lettings and, in fact, I think a sale has been put through by at least one vocational education committee, and the retrospective clause becomes necessary therefore.

Section 3 makes provision for a certain change in the wording of Section 43 of the Principal Act. In order to explain the meaning of the change and the object which it has in view, I think I should explain briefly the position with regard to the various schemes of vocational education committees. Under the 1930 Act, a vocational education committee must make before 15th January each year a demand on the local authority, whether it be urban, borough, or county council, as the case may be, for a contribution from the rates. The limits of this local contribution are determined by the amount of a rate levied on the valuation of the local area in question, as set out in the Principal Act. Hitherto, the amounts of these local contributions have been based on the valuation figures for the incoming financial year. As Deputies will see if they refer to the original Act, the phrase is "commencement of the financial year," but in actual fact the valuation figures for the incoming financial year are not known about the 15th January, which is the date upon which the Minister's certificate permitting the local vocational education committee to make its demand upon the local authority is issued. The valuation figures for the incoming financial year are not known until about six weeks after. It becomes necessary, therefore, to alter the original provision, which spoke of the valuation figures at the beginning of the incoming financial year, and to substitute therefor the valuation figures for the preceding financial year. We do not know the valuation figure at the 15th January, and by making this change we avoid error and we also place the vocational education committees in a better position to know what their income is likely to be; to know that accurately at the time they are making out their annual estimates for the next year's work. The substance then of that section is simply that, instead of taking the valuation figures for the incoming financial year as the basis for the local contribution under the 1930 Act, we are satisfied in future to take the valuation figures for the preceding year.

The preceding year?

Yes, the year preceding the year in which the rate is to be levied. For example, on January 15th next, instead of purporting to take the valuation figure for the local financial year beginning, I think, the 1st April, 1937, we shall take the valuation figures for the present year. I do not think that this section involves any appreciable change in the finances of the local vocational education schemes. There may be a slight increase in the State grants as a result of the change, but they are not of importance.

Section 4 makes provision for the application in future to membership of a vocational education committee of the disqualifications which appertain to membership of local authorities in general under the Local Government (Application of Enactments) Order, 1898. There is a certain exemption from these disqualifications laid down in the Principal Act and now reaffirmed, but the application of the Schedule of Disqualifications itself was, by some oversight, omitted from the original Act and the effect of Section 4 is to apply definitely these statutory disqualifications to membership of vocational education committees in the same way as they apply to other local authorities. These disqualifications, as Deputies know, refer to infancy, alienage, receipt of union relief, conviction for crime, contractual relationship, and bankruptcy. Under any of these headings a person may be disqualified from being a member of a vocational education committee, as applies to other local authorities at the present time. The only exemption is in respect of the case of persons or partners of persons who themselves receive continuation or vocational education. That is not considered as a benefit or advantage which would disqualify them.

These are the three points in the Bill. They are not of great importance, nor do I think that they introduce any new principle which the House need have any serious anxiety about. The Bill has been introduced to remedy certain defects which have been found in the vocational education system and which it is, as I have said, a matter of urgency that we should remove now.

I should like just to remark, in connection with this Bill, that I have received a circular letter from the vocational education committee in Clonmel. They seem to have a grievance in connection with it. I might say that I am not an authority on vocational education matters, not being a member of the committee or anything else. I believe, however, that certain promises or agreements, or some such things, were made by the Department of Education. In particular, I think it was agreed that they should purchase some hall or school in the village of Cappawhite. For some reason or another, the Department of Education, although I understand they gave sanction in the first instance, are not now agreeable to go on with some of these commitments. I want to bring the matter under the attention of the Minister because, so far as I understand the circular letter, which I have not by me now, a deputation is to wait on the Minister to-morrow or some time in the near future in connection with this grievance. As I say, I am not a great authority on these matters, but when this Bill came up I thought I would just mention it to the Minister.

The Deputy has made his point which, in the view of the Chair, was not relevant to the Bill before the House. When an amending Bill is introduced, the Principal Act does not come under discussion except in so far as it is affected, and the administration of the Department certainly does not arise for discussion.

I should like to ask the Minister if any provision has been made in this Bill to enable vocational education committees to sell a house or other buildings existing on lands held by them. Meath Vocational Committee recently purchased houses and other buildings, with land, for the purpose of establishing vocational schools with a rural bias. It transpires that, after the immediate needs of the Vocational Committee are satisfied, so far as the Committee can foresee, there will be some buildings which will not be required for school purposes. I should be glad if the Minister would state whether or not the Committee will have power under this Bill to dispose of these houses. I should also like to know if the Vocational Committee will have power to dispose of a small portion of land on such holdings because, in this particular case, Meath Board of Health are anxious to erect new houses for workmen in that area.

I do not know whether the practice still obtains of having employers members of vocational committees. That was the practice for a long time in Dublin. It may happen that some of these employer members will be required to supply goods to the committee and will be put in contractual relationship with that body. It would be unfortunate if, by reason of having sold, say, £100 worth of machinery to the committee, a member had to resign. I do not know whether the Minister has looked into that question or not, but I think he should.

I do not think that we could provide for the exemption of a particular class of contractual relationship, as it is called. The Deputy himself will recongnise, from his experience of local government administration, that it would be very difficult to arrange that a person who had a contract with a local authority should continue to be a member of that local authority. No case of the kind mentioned has come to my notice, but I think that it would be impossible to arrange for this exemption.

The Minister is aware that he is introducing this change now —that it was not there before.

According to the Application of Enactments Order, paragraph 4, "a person shall be disqualified from being elected or chosen or being a member of a council of a county or a district, or of a board of guardians or any town commissioners if he holds any paid office or place of profit under or in the government of the council, board or commissioners, as the case may be, other than that of mayor or sheriff or is concerned by himself or his partner in any bargain or contract entered into with the council, board or commissioners, or participates by himself or his partner in the profit of any such bargain or contract or any work done under the authority of the council, board or commissioners...." I cannot hold out any hope of securing this exemption.

I am not interested. Some of these persons may be on the board, and if they sell a machine to the committee they may have to be put off it.

I do not think there is any way out. The point to which Deputy Curran referred is receiving attention. In reply to Deputy Kelly, under Section 1 of this Bill, local authorities will have power to sell houses or pieces of land. In a number of cases, we were held up by reason of this omission in the Principal Act. We are now rectifying the omission and giving local committees these powers.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage fixed for Wednesday, 18th November, 1936.
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