Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Nov 1936

Vol. 64 No. 3

Expiring Laws Bill, 1936—Second Stage.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. I do not think it is necessary for me to say much in regard to the nature of this Bill. It is a Bill which it is customary to introduce at the end of the year and it proposes to continue for the coming year the measures which are set forth in the schedule. I may say that, with four exceptions, the statutes to be continued are the same as those which appeared in Parts 1 and 2 of the Schedule of the Expiring Laws Act of last year. The changes which have been made relate to the Labourers (Ireland) Act, 1883, further amended by the Labourers Act of 1936 and, accordingly, this latter Act has been added to the list of Acts amending the Labourers (Ireland) Act, 1883. The full list of those Acts is set out in column 4 of Part I of the schedule.

The Harbours, Docks and Piers (Temporary Increase of Charges) Act of 1920 is omitted from the Bill. This Act is repealed by Section 1 of an Act passed this year, save to the extent mentioned in that section and, in so far as it remains in force, it has been made permanent. Section 2 of the Statutory Undertakings Act and the second schedule to that Act have been repealed by the Act which affected the Act of 1920 and the statement in the third column of Part 2 of the schedule in the draft Bill in relation to the Statutory Undertakings Act has been amended accordingly. The Poor Relief (Dublin) Act, 1929, has been added to Part 2 of the schedule of the Bill. It is intended, pending the introduction of the permanent legislation which has been drafted to deal with the poor law position generally, to include that Act within the ambit of the present Expiring Laws Bill. As soon as the Courts of Justice Bill, now before the Oireachtas, becomes law, it will render the further annual renewal of the Courts of Justice Act of 1929 unnecessary.

This Measure is in the strict sense of the term an omnibus one and if there are any points upon which the House would require further information, if Deputies will mention them now in the course of the discussion on this stage of the Bill we can arrange that the Ministers concerned will be present on the committee Stage to give any further explanations that may be required.

Mr. Dillon

I appreciate the reasonable attitude adopted by the Minister. I quite understand it may be more convenient on the Committee Stage to have specified Ministers present. As a matter of fact, this Bill in its present form principally concerns the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, who is responsible for most of the Bills annually renewed. I think paragraph 7 in the schedule, which is intended to continue the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions) Act of 1923, provides a proper occasion for inquiring of the Minister for Local Government when he is of opinion the necessity for that Act will cease. That Act was originally passed for the purpose of restricting landlords from taking advantage of tenants who found themselves in a difficulty as a result of shortage of houses.

In rural Ireland during the last few years very considerable work has been done in providing housing for the working classes, but in the City of Dublin, the City of Cork, the City of Limerick and the other big centres of population it is painfully evident to anybody interested in housing that the problem of the housing shortage, which this Act was designed to remedy in 1923, is becoming more acute instead of gradually approaching solution. It would be very easy for the Opposition here to avail of such an occasion as this to hold up the Government to ridicule and to associate themselves with what I consider to be an entirely dishonest campaign that is at present being conducted in the Irish Press. I believe that the Irish Press is at present exploiting the difficulties of the Dublin poor for the purpose of offsetting the publicity secured by the Irish Independent in connection with the Christian Front.

An Ceann Comhairle

Neither the alleged campaign of the Irish Press— will the Deputy please sit down?—to which the Deputy refers, nor the defence of another front by another metropolitan journal, is relevant to this measure.

Mr. Dillon

I merely——

An Ceann Comhairle

Neither is the housing problem in the City of Dublin. The Deputy is restricted to giving reasons why certain measures should or should not be continued.

Mr. Dillon

I should think I am entitled to discuss whether it is necessary to continue the Rent Restrictions Act and, if it is, why that necessity exists. The necessity exists purely because of a housing shortage, and I want to suggest that the Government should seek the co-operation of those honestly interested in this problem to make an end to that housing shortage. I want to direct the Government's attention to the fact that I have no doubt that if they were in our position they would eagerly seize this opportunity to make as much political capital out of this situation as they could. I do not think it is an honest or a desirable course to pursue. Every practical person who has given attention to this slum problem knows the immense difficulties surrounding it. Every practical person knows the immense amount of political capital that can be made by exploiting the sufferings of the poor for political ends.

Mr. Davin

Doubtful political capital.

Mr. Dillon

I do not believe it.

Mr. Donnelly

Why look at the Labour Benches when you say that?

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Donnelly understands that as well as I do, but let us not introduce a note of levity into this question, because it is a matter of grave concern to all sides.

Mr. Davin

We have no Party paper.

Mr. Dillon

Let us leave that aspect out of the discussion at the moment. This is a grave matter, and I will say to the Government now that the time has come for a very explicit statement to be made by the Minister for Finance as well as the Minister for Local Government as to what the real reasons are for the apparently unsatisfactory progress that has been made by housing authorities, not only in Dublin but in other cities as well. Further, I take this opportunity of offering the Government any co-operation that it is in our power to give towards remedying the housing shortage which this Rent Restrictions Act was designed to palliate. I regard it as a very great danger to social order and to the institutions which are established in this country that a scandal of this kind should continue. I believe the Dublin Corporation is doing all that any public body could do to deal with the problem with which they are confronted. I do not think the Government are doing all they could in the matter of explaining to the public what the real difficulties are.

An Ceann Comhairle

The question before the House is the continuation of a certain statute which the Deputy apparently argues should not be renewed. The argument should not, and cannot relevantly, develop into a discussion of the slum problem in Dublin, the housing needs of the whole State and a criticism of the action or inaction of the Government. The Deputy must show how the Act in question affects that problem.

Mr. Davin

Is it not in order for the Deputy, if I may help him out of his difficulty, to discuss this matter under the Labourers (Ireland) Act, 1883, in conjunction with the other measures he refers to?

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not think so.

Mr. Dillon

May I make a submission, Sir? The Government asks us to re-enact the Rent Restrictions Act and to do so on the representation that there is an acute housing shortage and that speculation must be prohibited. Is it not open to me to reply that the best remedy for that shortage is not to re-enact this Act, but to remedy the shortage? If you have failed to remedy that shortage, I am entitled to call you to account, when, as a substitute for remedying that shortage, you ask us to pass the Rent Restrictions Act for another year.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has now made that point, but he may not initiate a debate on the housing problem in general or in Dublin in particular.

Mr. Dillon

I am certainly not going to challenge your ruling, Sir, but it does seem to me to be extremely difficult to discuss the question of whether we should pass the Rent Restrictions Act unless I am allowed to review the problem which the Act is designed to remedy. Surely if this Act were standing alone, I would be entitled to suggest to the Government that their duty was to remedy the shortage rather than to restrict rents? I want to make that argument now, and I am making the point that I believe the failure to remedy the shortage which is the prima facie justification for this Act is a failure which nobody can remedy but the Government themselves, and that whatever the difficulties are that are impeding the Government should be communicated in the fullest way to the public, lest unscrupulous persons should misrepresent those difficulties with a view to suggesting that there was some dark conspiracy somewhere to keep the people in the slums, and that the Oireachtas of this State was coldly indifferent to the trials under which these people are living. I think it is a very necessary thing, although probably politically advantageous to nobody except those on the Government Benches, to let it be known in the country that all sides of this House, Government and Opposition, are equally anxious to take all practicable steps expeditiously to make an end of the slum problem in this and every other city in the country, and that the only reason that we allow the Rent Restrictions Act to be continued is because, acting with all the energy available to us, we cannot abate the problem sufficiently quickly to justify the abandoning of this Act at present. I particularly want the question of the housing of city populations lifted out of the sphere of controversial politics.

Mr. T. Kelly

It is not in the sphere of controversial politics.

Mr. Dillon

I believe that any attempt by newspapers or political parties to constitute themselves the exclusive champions of persons suffering under disabilities, such as the residents of the slum tenements of this city suffer under, can do nothing but harm. It should be made clear to all that it is a joint responsibility to make an end of these difficulties and a joint responsibility which all parties and all interests in the country are equally ready to share. I think the Minister for finance, without waiting for the intervention of the Minister for Local Government, might give us some very useful information on the financial aspects of this problem on this occasion —and I suggest here that he is asking that this Act should be re-enacted because of financial difficulties of such a character as to make it impossible to deal with the problem as expeditiously as he otherwise would—and explain that if the Dublin Corporation is moving slowly it is because the difficulties with which it is confronted are for the time being very hard to surmount.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is anxious to hear the Deputy relate these difficulties to the Bill before the House, since the Chair is not at all convinced that they are relevant to the Rent Restrictions Act.

Mr. Dillon

Unless the difficulties are insuperable for the time being there can be no justification whatever for re-enacting the Rent Restrictions Act because the remedy is to abate the housing shortage and not to restrict rents. In the absence of a housing shortage, there should be no necessity for a Rent Restrictions Act if there were enough houses for everybody.

Mr. Corish

Nonsense.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy will understand that I have to make my case in order to the Chair, so that I may relate my observations to this Act. If there were more houses than there were tenants to fill them——

Mr. Corish

I accept it in that way.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

The Act relates only to houses built before the war.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister can rest assured that the Chair is quite competent to judge of the relevance of my observations without any intervention to assist him. I want to make this point: Deputy Tom Kelly is Chairman of the Housing Committee and he has made statements in the public Press alleging that the difficulty under which the Corporation is labouring is purely financial in character.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has not related the Rent Restrictions Act to the present-day housing problem. The Rent Restrictions Act deals with a certain type of house, but not, in the opinion of the Chair, with the building of new houses, or the solution of the slum problem.

Mr. Dillon

It is, most clearly. The Minister for Industry and Commerce would be wise to withdraw from the housing question, because he knows very little about it. The Rent Restrictions Act was originally designed to prevent speculation in pre-war houses because there were no post-war houses and there were three potential tenants for every pre-war house. The remedy was to build post-war houses for the tenants, and when there were more houses than tenants there would be no necessity for artificial restriction of rents. That was the purpose of the Act. It was said when the Bill first passed that it would only be enforced until such time as there were enough houses to go round and should then cease to exist. I want the Minister for Finance to tell us now if the reason which Deputy Tom Kelly gives for the necessity for this Act is the true reason. Is it purely a financial question, and, if it is, what suggestions has he got to make to the local authorities concerned for the solution of that part of their problem? I think he can tell us that now, and I think the Minister for Local Government should charge himself with the duty of making a full statement on the question of the housing shortage on the Committee Stage of this Bill when we come to deal with the Schedule. I think it will serve to get this problem into proper perspective and make an end definitely to any attempt by anybody to make capital of one kind or another out of the difficulties under which the community as a whole finds itself at present.

Mr. Corish

I think it redounds to the credit of the Government that they are re-enacting this Act, and I take a different view entirely from that expressed by Deputy Dillon as to the necessity for it. So far as we can remember, this Act was brought into operation during the days of the British in order to prevent profiteering in rent. The Deputy speaks of the housing shortage as if there are going to be sufficient houses built to replace all the houses that existed pre-war. That is the only inference that can be drawn from his speech.

Mr. Dillon

No.

Mr. Corish

I do not see that any other inference can be drawn. I suggest to Deputy Dillon, and to the House, that even if there were sufficient houses to house the people, there would still be a necessity for the Rent Restrictions Act to prevent landlords from profiteering on poor tenants. As I have said, it redounds to the credit of the Government that they should re-enact this measure. I should like also to ask when it is proposed to take steps to have the Labourers Act, which enables cottage tenants to purchase their homes, put into operation. This Act has been talked of for a considerable time and it has been passed now for some months, but no intimation has yet been received by the county boards of health in relation to what the intentions of the Government are in connection with it.

Another matter on which I should like to have some information is the Combined Purchasing Act. As far as one can ascertain it has been the means of saving a good deal of money for local authorities, but what I am greatly afraid of is that the samples submitted to local authorities and the goods supplied afterwards are two entirely different things. I think the Minister might take steps to secure that the goods supplied are of as high a standard as the samples submitted. I have had personal experience of cases where the goods supplied were of an entirely different quality from the samples supplied originally. I should like also to know when we may expect a report from the tribunal which has been set up to consider the relations between landlord and tenant. For a number of years here, when Fianna Fáil was in opposition, they endeavoured themselves to secure that a Town Tenants Bill would be introduced in this House. For the last three or four years they have had an opportunity of introducing such a Bill but we seem to be as far away from it as ever. There is an urgent necessity for a Town Tenants Bill to regulate the relations between landlord and tenant and I would suggest to the Minister for Finance that he should ask his colleague, the Minister for Justice, to endeavour to get the tribunal to send in its report as early as possible.

Mr. T. Kelly

Some attention has been given recently to the question of supplying school books for children. I should like the Minister to ascertain if it would be possible under the Poor Relief Act of 1929, to supply school books to children as portion of the system of home assistance.

Mr. MacEntee

I could say a lot about Deputy Dillon's speech but it might not conduce to the good humour of the House. However, the cold, sculptured hypocrisy of it was so very apparent to everybody that it is not necessary for me to deal with it beyond just saying that any serious attempt which has been made to deal with the housing problem has been made by the present Government. If the Deputy, who was so concerned with this question of housing, had taken trouble to refer to the Schedule, he would have seen a reference there to the Labourers (Ireland) Act of 1883, and he would have known, if he knew anything about the problem, that a great part of the work which is at present going on in Ireland in the rehousing of the working classes is carried out under two Acts passed by the Oireachtas, amending the Labourers (Ireland) Act, of 1883. These Acts are No. 19 of 1932, the first Housing Act which really made a serious attack on the housing problem, and No. 24 of 1936 which was passed this year. Under these Acts, as I pointed out to the Dáil in my Budget statement, this Government has made itself responsible, one way or another, for contributing practically £6,000,000 towards a solution of the slum problem. They have contributed to the cost of house building in this State during the past three years no less a sum than £6,000,000. What has been done in the past three years stands remote and far above all comparison with what was done during the preceding ten years. We are not here to try to make political capital out of that fact but we are not here either to permit ourselves, or to permit all that this Government has done for housing to be misrepresented and traduced by a gentleman like Deputy Dillon. If he were speaking for a Party that had an honourable or a creditable record in regard to this problem behind it, one could listen to him with patience and one might extend some forbearance to his uncontrollable desire to talk upon all occasions upon subjects about which he knows nothing.

Mr. Dillon

That silly abuse will get us nowhere. The Minister might answer the questions I asked.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy's attempt, not to deal with this problem, but to misrepresent in some way the efforts which have been made outside this House to direct public attention to its seriousness, shows how little good faith there was in anything the Deputy said here this afternoon in regard to the housing problem.

With regard to the points raised by Deputy Corish, that in relation to the Act enabling local authorities to devise and submit schemes for the purchase of labourers' cottages is a matter for the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, and I shall draw that Minister's attention to the Deputy's remarks in regard to it and also to his remarks, and the criticism which he passed, in regard to the Local Authorities (Combined Purchasing) Act. I may say that a measure to give permanent effect to the principle of that Act is under consideration, and I have no doubt that when it comes before the Dáil any suggestions for an improvement of the existing position will be very sympathetically considered by the Minister.

The question of the Tribunal which has been appointed to inquire into the relations at present existing between certain classes of landlords and tenants is a matter for the Minister for Justice. I am not in a position to say how far that Tribunal has gone to complete its labours. I know, and I am sure the Deputy has noticed from reports in the Press, that it has been sitting regularly and frequently, and that a great deal of very valuable evidence had already been submitted to it. I share with the Deputy, and the Government does also, the desire to receive an early report from the Tribunal, and I have no doubt that the Minister for Justice is doing everything towards that end.

Mr. T. Kelly

What about my query?

Mr. MacEntee

I am sorry I overlooked Deputy Kelly's question, but I hope the Deputy will forgive me if I say that I am not an encyclopaedia on statutes.

Mr. Kelly

You are a good substitute.

Mr. MacEntee

This Act of 1929 which appears as the last item in the Schedule is the Act which enables, I think, the home assistance authority in Dublin to give poor relief to able-bodied men. It is also going to be the subject of a further Act this year, but in the meantime we desire to include it in the Schedule. I do not think that under it we have power to permit local authorities to supply school books to children.

Mr. Kelly

A poor law official told me that they could.

Mr. MacEntee

Again, I say that I shall bring the Deputy's query in that regard under the notice of the Minister for Education and the Minister for Local Government and Public Health.

Mr. Dillon

Sir, I asked the Minister what I conceived to be a civil question. A responsible Deputy of this House has stated in the public Press that one of the principal difficulties in remedying the housing shortage is of a purely financial character and that, without a guarantee from the Government, it is impossible to make adequate progress. I asked the Minister would he be good enough, in view of that, to let us hear the Government's view-point on that matter. Instead of answering my question, the Minister indulged in some scurrilous abuse and then passed on to other matters. I suggest, Sir, that that does not help parliamentary procedure. The question I asked is purely bona fide. The Minister has had abundant opportunity for dealing with it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy wish to ask a question?

Mr. Dillon

Yes, Sir I asked the Minister would he be good enough to give us any information on that question and he did not give us any information. I ask the Minister now will he give us any information on that question?

Mr. MacEntee

I do not think, Sir, that this is an opportune time for asking that question. There are other ways of getting information in the House.

Mr. Dillon

May I respectfully suggest that it is the duty of a Minister, in recommending a Bill to this House, to answer reasonable queries that arise in connection with the Bill? I quite see, Sir, that it is no part of your duty to compel the Minister to answer, but I do take this opportunity of protesting against a Minister taking up the attitude that he will not answer a reasonable question and refusing to give any information. I submit that if that attitude is to be habitually adopted by Ministers on the Front Bench of the Government, parliamentary procedure becomes farcical.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not make another speech.

Mr. Dillon

May I not make a submission to you, Sir? I have asked the Minister a legitimate question, directly arising out of the Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is no function of the Chair to go into the merits of the Bill. The opinion was expressed by the Chair, from the view-point of order, that the present housing problem is not relevant to a measure dealing with the continuation of the Rent Restrictions Act.

Mr. MacEntee

In accord with the ruling of the Chair in this matter, I have only to repeat that I do not think, Sir, that this is an opportune time to answer the question Deputy Dillon has asked.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 19th November.