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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Feb 1937

Vol. 65 No. 2

In Committee on Finance. Supplementary Estimates. - Vote 49—Science and Art.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £10 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1937, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí na bhFundúireachtaí Eolaíochta agus Ealadhan agus Ildeontaisí-i-gCabhair, etc.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1937, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Institutions of Science and Art, and Sundry Grants-in-Aid, etc.

The gross additional provision of £1,000 asked for in this Supplementary Estimate is required to meet expenditure in connection with publications in Irish during the current financial year in excess of the provision made in the original Estimate. The amount provided for in the Vote for Science and Art for 1936-37 was £6,000, and the closest estimate now available of expenditure falling to be met during the year is £7,000. As indicated on the face of the Estimate, the expenditure is in respect of the preparation and publication of translations and original works in Irish and the preparation and publication of Irish music. The provision covers such items as fees to authors and translators and composers of work accepted for publication, payments in respect of copyright and the cost of printing. The gross additional provision required is offset by an anticipated saving of £990, due to economies in other directions, or rather to the fact that a certain scheme of reorganisation has not been brought into effect as early as was anticipated. The net additional sum asked for in the Supplementary Estimate is accordingly £10.

Could the Minister give any indication of the nature of, the music which it is proposed to publish? Would he be good enough to tell us if the Department have consulted with any body of artists or recognised authorities on Irish music with a view to selecting authoritative material and with a view to ensuring that whatever is printed, with the seal of the Government's approval, will truly represent that type of Irish music which we might not expect a publisher, who is seeking nothing but profit, to produce. I take it that the publications in Irish which are here referred to are commonly known as those produced by the Gúm.

I have heard a great deal of criticism of that but, personally, I am not in a position to pass judgment on the Gúm. I feel sometimes that their activities are misdirected. I cannot imagine that any very material contribution is made to Irish literature by the publication of a translation of such books as "Murder in the Villa Rose." It may be a very good story but, nevertheless, its translation into Irish might have been deferred until some more valuable books were produced. This much I will say about the Gúm and I say it in no spirit of criticism. I take it that the books produced by the Gúm are produced for the purpose of providing a wider variety of literature for young people and persons who want to read Irish for relaxation. Might I suggest that some steps should be taken to make the books a little more digestible in appearance? Nothing is more depressing than to give a young person a book which is supposed to be an instrument of amusement and recreation and which is most manifestly from the same press as Blackie's Irish Reader. It may not be Blackie's. It may be Jones's or Foster's Irish Reader. These may be most excellent publications for the purpose of indoctrinating the young in the spelling of simple words, but they are associated in the minds of the young with the classroom. We want to produce books which will be associated in the child mind with more attractive subjects— fairy tales and school tales, such as were available for Christmas presents in the bookshops in the ordinary way.

I put it to the Minister that most of the Gúm's productions are of a dreadfully forbidding exterior. We ought to try to induce young people to read these books and enjoy them, not to look upon the reading of them as tasks. I think a great deal could be done along the lines of giving these books a more attractive appearance. I want to make it clear, however, that I am not criticising the Gúm. They may or may not be deserving of criticism. I do not know, but I do suggest that they should make an effort to give the books which they produce a more attractive appearance.

The Minister said that part of the money which is being voted is in respect of copyright. In our copyright laws as far as I remember, we refused to grant copyright for books translated into Irish.

Have we been paying actually for copyright in these books, although by law we are not bound to do so?

We have been paying.

With regard to the publication of Irish music, would it not be well for the Minister to take some advice as to the personnel of the committee who are going to advise him in this matter. My experience is that we have a lot of "Come-All-Ye's" coming over the ether which is offered to us as Irish music, but which is not very creditable to the country. I should like to know whether anything has been done regarding the publication of music such as the Bunting Collection which I regard as a standard work. The Bunting Collection in the view of persons better able to judge than I am, is at the present moment beyond the reach of the ordinary school-child and is certainly beyond the reach of many working-class people. Does the Minister propose in publishing this Irish music to publish such works as the Bunting Collection, say in parts, so that they will be within the reach of the ordinary working-class people? I applaud the efforts of the Minister in that direction, and I do hope that the personnel of the committee will be such that we will get out of the rut of the "Come-All-Ye" stuff that we have heard so frequently over the wireless and on concert platforms.

Deputy Anthony perhaps is not aware that Bunting is being edited, I understand, and published by a private publisher. That is to say, a gentleman here in Dublin who is well known has undertaken to republish and re-edit Bunting's work. It is not being done under Government auspices. The work we are chiefly concerned with is the work prepared by Carl Hardebeck. There has been, unfortunately, a delay in getting that music printed but a substantial number of pieces by Hardebeck will be available. Probably about a hundred pieces in all will be available in a comparatively short time. There is a small committee of experts to advise the Department regarding the suitability for publication of pieces of Irish music. I think that the committee is doing its work satisfactorily. It is prepared to consider very carefully any work offered to it —either original work or, as the Deputy suggested, the re-editing of Bunting or of the work of other early workers in that sphere. We have also a committee of experts in connection with the publication of text books. With regard to the ordinary publications under the Gúm, they are intended for the general reader and they are, generally, works of fiction and very largely translations. It may be that some of these translations are not regarded as satisfactory, but there is a difficulty because we have to try to provide the type of ordinary reading which young people are accustomed to have in English. We have to try to provide that type of ordinary fiction in Irish. Some people might think that the type of fiction ordinarily read by young people does them a certain amount of harm. I do not agree. I simply say that it need not be of a very high standard. The Gúm had undertaken the publication of a large number of these translations and were committed to publishing them. They had expended a certain amount of money on having them translated and, although I held up a certain number of them, there was a definite loss, from the financial point of view, in not proceeding with their publication when arrangements had proceeded a certain length. In addition to that type of ordinary fiction for adolescent and adult readers, there is the question of providing standard works of a more substantial character—historical and biographical works. The Gúm is quite prepared to undertake the publication of works of that kind. They have published recently a life of Daniel O'Connell in Irish and other works of that kind which, I think, compare favourably with corresponding standard works in English or other languages.

The number of writers we have in Irish is not very great, and we should like to see a steady output of works in all departments. We should like to see, as Deputy Dillon has suggested, a fairly good output of children's books. In my opinion, there is not at all a large enough selection of books for small children. We have also to keep in mind the need of our young people who are in secondary schools or who are leaving secondary schools. The number of books in Irish read by these people at the present time is astonishing. We have advertised frequently and offered what we consider to be good terms for original works in Irish. We have not got as many original works as we should like. That is not the fault of the Gúm.

I should like to call attention to the fact that while there is a good deal of criticism—much of it unfounded—of the work of the Gúm, very little is being done to encourage the Gúm by trying to get sales for the books, even the books about which there is general agreement as to their value. Except in rare cases, one does not get a sale of more than 1,000 copies. That is a very bad indication of the interest taken in Irish literature. If we are to do satisfactory work in modern Irish literature, we shall have to try to increase the Irish-reading public. With regard to the appearance of the books, the aim is to make them as cheap as possible. These books, which are generally available at a price of 2/-, may not be everything one would wish from the point of view of appearance, but the Government is not making any profit on them. The sole aim is to put the book on the market in legible clear print with a reasonably good appearance but not very ornamental, since our idea is to keep the price as low as possible. If Deputies will compare the prices of the Gúm publications with the prices of books published by private firms, they will see that no effort whatever is being made to obtain profits, and that the sole idea is to make the books as cheap as possible for our young readers.

In conclusion, may I say that there are great difficulties with regard to the printing and correction of books in Irish? I am informed and I believe that there is a shortage of printers who have a good knowledge of Irish and that there is a shortage of readers in the printing offices who are capable of correcting works in Irish, with the result that a huge amount of correction is thrown back upon the Gúm, which should not ordinarily be the case. In fact, a great deal of work is done by the Gúm in putting manuscripts in proper form before being sent to the printers, apart from the huge amount of correction that takes place subsequently. Having regard to these great difficulties, I think the record of the Gúm is very good. They have published 300 books, are having printed about 115, and 120 further volumes have been accepted and are in course of preparation for the printers. Our object is to improve the quality of the books not only from the point of view of appearance but from the point of view of their literary quality and their usefulness to the public. To make the scheme of the Gúm a success, it is necessary, in the first place, that we should have educated writers who will have the requisite qualities to enable them to write attractive original works in Irish and, in the second place, that we should have a sufficient reading public to encourage those writers, so that, if their works are produced by the Gúm, they will get a far larger number of readers than they seem to be getting at the present time.

What the Minister says about the printing of these Irish books is quite correct. There appears to be no great rush on the part of the printers for contracts for printing these Irish books. The reason is that we have not got, as I think the Minister will agree, educated Irish writers.

The Minister has said that himself.

It is bad enough for him to say it, without your repeating it.

Again, what the Minister says is quite correct—that there is not a sufficiency of persons who can read Irish and make the necessary corrections, although they proclaim that they are educated Irish speakers. That is the big difficulty. I have experience of where an educated man —he must have been educated, because he was a professor—wrote a book in Irish. It was corrected by another educated Irishman, and there were so many corrections that the printer had to charge almost as much as it would cost to produce a new book. Then a third gentleman got hold of it, and altered it back almost to the original, so that when three educated Irishmen got hold of the book, each had a different conception of the use of the verb in many cases. There was a conflict of opinion as to which was the correct form, and, until there is some uniform style in Irish, it shows the necessity for going slow and putting on the soft pedal. I am not saying that in any critical mood.

I shall explain to the House that when I used the words "educated writers," I meant writers who are versed in other languages, who, for example, are capable of translating from French or German, and who have an acquaintance with other literature, which would enable them to be of greater advantage to the Irish language. I do not at all agree with Deputy Anthony, and it was very far from me to suggest that any person writing in Irish at present is not educated, if that is the implication the Deputy is trying to put on what I said.

I am not.

It is true that a great many native speakers may not have had the advantage of a University education, but very excellent work has been done by them. In fact, the work of our native speakers compares with the work done to-day in any other literature, and has received commendation, the best commendation being the translation of some of these works, such as "An t-Oileanac" and the works of Muiris O Suilleabhain. The translations into English and descriptions from these works are equal to those of any other literature. They are certainly able to rank with any work in English at the present time. I do not want to prolong the discussion unnecessarily, but I should like to know from Deputy Anthony if, by any chance, the case he has in mind, where the professors were blamed for delays and a large number of corrections, could not be attributed to the owner of the printing office or the staff, as I understand, is often the case, because, although they have not a real knowledge of Irish, still they undertake the printing and publication of a large amount of work in the Irish language.

In reply to the Minister, it is a remarkable fact, and it is a quite common experience, that some of the cleanest proofs have been turned out by men who have absolutely no knowledge of Irish, either spoken or written Irish. It is when corrections are made, sometimes by authors and sometimes by proof readers who are good Irish scholars, that the trouble begins. It is a remarkable fact that the same trouble is not experienced when printing, say, a French grammar, a Latin grammar or a German grammar. There you have certain hard and fast rules to guide you, but in the case of Irish it is otherwise. The Minister can ask the proprietors of printing houses in Dublin, Cork or elsewhere if I am not giving the exact situation. I am not mentioning this in a critical mood, as I want to help the Minister in this matter. The printing of Irish has been found more difficult and, I believe, less profitable to printers than the printing of works in foreign languages.

The fact that we can get books printed in Irish abroad more cheaply, and possibly better in many cases, than here is a sufficient answer to the Deputy.

I should like to ask the Minister a few questions: (1) Is he free to give us the personnel of the committee which is advising him as to the music which is to be published by the Department; and (2) has the Gúm ever translated the Fairy Tales of Hans Andersen, Grimm, or a book like "Treasure Island"?

I think "Treasure Island" has been translated.

I think the Minister is entirely mistaken in trying to make these books cheap looking. I would like if he had them handsomely turned out and sold cheaply. The amount of subsidy that would be required to make books like Hans Andersen, Grimm or "Treasure Island" cheaper in a gift edition in Irish than in English would be comparatively trivial. If you could get copies of Hans Andersen, Grimm and "Treasure Island" handsomely bound and attractively got up, borrowing, if necessary by contract or by licence, illustrations from some well-known edition in English, and publish these in a form which would justify anybody who wanted to give a birthday or a Christmas gift to a child, it would be helpful. Let the two books stand in a bookseller's shelves, an edition in English on the one hand, and an Irish edition handsomely bound, and let the handsome Irish edition be half the price of the English one. In that way you would get these books into the hands of children who would prise into them, look at the pictures and read the text. That seems to be the obvious object of An Gúm. You will not get children to read a 2/- book for pleasure. Most young adults buy a good many of the books they read on their external appearance. It is only when one reaches middle age and gets a little more experience of literature, that one joins the select company of Deputy T. Kelly and becomes a book lover and a connoisseur, not caring for the cover but for the contents. No one will withhold from Deputy Kelly a tribute to his love for books. I think he will agree with me that the number of persons prepared to pass judgment on books by their contents are outnumbered by those who are attracted by a pleasing exterior. That is peculiarly true of children. They have to be induced to read books and I suggest that that is the way to do it. I should be glad to have the names of those who are to advise the Minister as to the music which is to be published.

There is a good deal of truth in what Deputy Dillon said. Unfortunately books of the type he described as suitable for children, with large print, well illustrated and well turned out, a small number of which the Gúm has published, have met with anything like success on the Irish market.

Vote agreed to.
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