Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Forestry. – Dáil Éireann (8th Dáil) – Tuesday, 27 Apr 1937

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Forestry.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Boland)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £101,788 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1938, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Foraoiseachta (9 agus 10 Geo. 5, c. 58; agus Uimh. 34 de 1928), maraon le Deontas-i-gCabhair chun Tailimh do Thógaint.

That a sum not exceeding £101,788 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1938, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 58; and No. 34 of 1928), including a Grant-in-Aid for Acquisition of Land.

The total net Vote proposed for the current year is £152,788, which is practically the same as last year, small reductions having been made under a few sub-heads. The work of State afforestation is progressing satisfactorily and it is intended to increase the area planted each year until the maximum rate of planting is reached. The final figures are not yet available for the season now closing, but it is anticipated that about 7,200 acres will be planted as against 6,919 acres planted during 1935-36. It was hoped to plant at least 8,000 acres, if not 10,000 acres, during the past season, but a number of reasons, principally a general shortage in some species of trees and a lack of sufficient ground of a suitable type for the plants available caused the programme in contemplation to be curtailed. The definite aim is to be in a position to plant 10,000 acres annually as soon as practicable, and the State nurseries have been enlarged with a view to meeting the needs of a programme of this extent. The increase in the area planted each year must also be met by an accelerated rate of acquisition of land for planting, and though over 109,000 acres have already been acquired for State forestry purposes, of which close on 10,000 acres were acquired during the past year, it is felt that a much larger area must be acquired each year if a satisfactory annual planting programme is to be maintained. The total area of the new plantations formed by the State is now approximately 55,000 acres, the balance of the 109,000 acres comprising old woodlands in existence at the time of acquisition, scrub land not yet cleared for planting, bare land ready for planting, unplantable lands and a number of small areas let in grazing, turbary, etc.

Thirteen forest centres were established during the past year, namely, at Borris, County Carlow; at Castlesaunderson, near Belturbet, County Cavan; at Virginia, County Cavan; at Cratloe, County Clare; at Killakee, County Dublin; at Castlegrove, near Tuam, County Galway; in County Kildare at Rahin, near Edenderry, at Donadea, at Clonaslea, Leix, County Kildare; at Graiguenamanagh, County Kilkenny; at Mullinavat, near Piltown, County Kilkenny; at Templederry, County Tipperary, and at Drumsna, County Leitrim.

The total number of forest centres in the Saorstát is now 81, nearly double the number of centres in existence four or five years ago. There are centres now in every county in the Saorstát except Counties Meath and Sligo, and it is hoped that it will be possible to establish centres in these counties also during the coming year. New centres will continue to be established where practicable, but it should be noted that an expansion in this direction carries with it a difficulty as regards expansion in planting operations. If lands are acquired and can be attached to an existing centre and worked in conjunction with it, larger planting programmes can generally be carried out, as there is on the spot a forester with his staff of workers who have acquired training by experience. At new centres a staff must be trained, and this takes some time. Moreover it is not always possible to assign at once a supervising officer to a new centre, as the staff of foremen and foresters is not yet sufficiently large for all the increasing demands upon it. The training of men for supervisory posts in the forestry service takes time. The majority of these men must be trained by the State, and this is being done satisfactorily at the forestry school at Avondale, County Wicklow. The period of training is three years, and, therefore, it is obvious that the building up of an adequate staff cannot be accomplished without some delay. Notwithstanding these difficulties, it is intended to create new centres where possible, and particularly to extend forestry operations in the West and South.

The possibility of starting forestry operations in the Gaeltacht has received much attention, and very con siderable areas have been inspected for the purpose, but unfortunately the lands obtainable have had to be rejected as unsuitable either owing to exposure or to poor soil conditions, or to a combination of both reasons, and so far the search in the Gaeltacht for suitable lands of sufficient extent has only been partially successful. It is hoped, however, to start shortly at Coomroe, beside Gougane Barra, in the Ballingeary district, County Cork, as an agreement has now been reached after protracted negotiations with the owners of some land offered for sale there, and eventually a large forest centre should be established in the district, if other lands which have been inspected can also be acquired. In County Mayo, in the Tourmakeady district, there are possibilities, and an investigation is now being made in respect of the Leenane district of Counties Galway and Mayo. It is also proposed to experiment to a limited extent with lands near Newport, County Mayo, in order to ascertain the possibilities of successful afforestation, not only on those lands, but on lands of a similar type on the Western seaboard in which like conditions are to be found.

The main problem of the State, however, is to improve the timber resources of the country, and this must be done as quickly as circumstances will permit. This country has been denuded of trees to such an extent that we are by far the most deficient of all European countries in home supplies of timber. The policy of the State is to develop our timber resources to their maximum extent within a reasonable time. Meanwhile the State forest lands will be producing timber in the form of thinnings suitable for fencing, rustic work, gates, etc. and, as these will soon be available from our earlier plantations, and as the output will increase every year, it is important that a demand should be created for this material not only locally but all over the country. Apart from the improvement in our economic position, there will follow the added advantages of the utilisation of lands not required for other purposes, the beneficial results on our climatic conditions, the potential new industries that may arise and the provision of employment for a large number of forest workers during the winter season when agricultural work is at its lowest point. But, for a successful State policy of afforestation, continuity is essential and we must make up our minds definitely on this aspect of the matter if we are to reach the measure of success that has been attained in other countries.

The main sub-heads of the Vote are substantially the same as last year and do not call for particular comment.

Sub-head A. £13,115. Salaries, Wages and Allowances.—There is an increase of £1,396 under this sub-head. The expansion of forestry operations has called for increased staff and provision is made for some further increases.

Sub - head C (1). Acquisition of Land (Grant-in-Aid), £5,000.—There is an increase of £4,000 under this sub-head. The amounts voted under this sub-head, being by way of grant-in-aid, are not surrendered at the end of the financial year, and as there was an unexpended balance of £88,277 on 31st March last it is considered that this amount with an additional £5,000 will be sufficient to cover any acquisitions of land during the current year. During the past year 9,551 acres were acquired at an aggregate price of £39,037 of which £6,121 has still to be paid, and in addition there are commitments to purchase another 9,044 acres at an aggregate price of £21,365. The title of the vendors in these latter cases is at present being investigated and the sales will be complete when title has been proved. The total of these commitments is £27,486. Arrangements are being made with the Land Commission for the allotment for forestry purposes of about 6,000 acres at an aggregate purchase price of £14,000 so that actual commitments may be regarded as approximately £41,000. Negotiations are pending with private owners for the purchase of 10,500 acres, representing an aggregate price of £30,903, making a total of approximately £72,000 for actual and potential commitments.

Sub-head C (2). £136,688. Cultural Operations, Maintenance, etc.—There is a reduction of £5,873 under this sub-head. The Estimate last year was based on the planting of 10,000 acres during the year but, as explained, the programme had to be curtailed somewhat, and experience has shown that the amount now required will be sufficient to cover an 8,000-10,000 acre planting programme.

Provision is also made for further increases to the staff of foresters and foremen, as the work is still hampered by the lack of trained men. The Department has already tried to get suitable men from outside and the Civil Service Commissioners have held open competitions for the purpose, but a sufficient number of qualified candidates was not available. The Department must, therefore, wait until it has trained its own apprentices, and this is being done as rapidly as possible.

The amount required for seeds, seedlings and transplants has been reduced from £12,500 to £6,000 as the State nurseries have been more than doubled in area during the past three years, and they should produce, to a greater extent, all the seedlings and transplants required. Hitherto, it has been necessary to purchase from private growers large quantities to supplement the output of the State nurseries, but this year it is anticipated that a lesser quantity from outside will be necessary. The State nurseries have always been the main source of supply, and for many reasons it is desirable that this should be so to a still greater extent. In any case, last year it was not possible for the Department to obtain all its requirements either at home or in Great Britain or on the Continent. The purchases last season were, in round figures, 325,000 transplants and 515,000 seedlings from Saorstát nurserymen; 150,000 transplants and 345,000 seedlings from Great Britain, and 995,000 transplants and 475,000 seedlings from the Continent.

The quantity of seed purchased last year was approximately 10,624 lb., the sources of supply being—Austria (2,330 lb.), Germany (52 lb.), Holland (3,000 lb.), Denmark (3,675 lb.), Scotland (950 lb.), Canada (297 lb.) and the United States (320 lb.). A small quantity of seed is extracted at home.

The number of men employed during March this year, which is the month for maximum employment of forestry workers, was about 1,900. A greater number would have been employed but for the abnormally bad weather conditions which interrupted work at a number of forests.

Sub-head D (1). £600. Grants and Advances for Afforestation Purposes. —The amount required under this sub-head is the same as last year. This scheme of free grants to private owners of land undertaking planting work continues to be availed of, but it is a matter for regret that greater use is not made of it as the procedure is very simple. All that is necessary is for the owner of the land to inform the Department that he desires to plant an area of not less than 5 acres, and the Department will then arrange for the land to be inspected to ascertain if it is suitable and will advise what species of trees should be planted. The owner will then be informed that he can proceed with his planting work, and the Department, on being advised that he has completed it, will inspect the work done. If satisfied that the work has been properly done and the necessary fencing erected, the Department will then pay the first instalment of £3 per acre and, after five years, the remaining £1 per acre, provided the plantation has been satisfactorily maintained in the meanwhile. A number of owners can join to make up the minimum five acres, provided that the whole area is in a compact block and that each applicant plants not less than one acre. The number of applicants for grants during the past year was only 16.

Sub-head D (2). £400. Arbor Day. —The amount asked for under this sub-head is £200 less than last year, as the schools show apparently a slackening of interest in the scheme. In 1935, the first year of the scheme, over 1,500 schools participated; in 1936 close on 900 participated, but last year only 641 schools took part in it. Under the scheme free trees are supplied to schools for Arbor Day, so that there does not appear to be any reason why a greater interest should not be manifested. It is possible, of course, that a considerable number of schools have either no suitable ground for planting or have already exhausted any available ground in the previous Arbor Days. The scheme is purely educational, the purpose being to stimulate interest among young people in the care and preservation of trees and in the appreciation of their beauty and value. So long as a considerable number of schools are prepared to associate themselves with Arbor Day, it is felt that the maintenance of the scheme is justified. The number of schools, apart from the Gaeltacht, that took part last year by provinces were: Munster, 234; Connacht, 184; Leinster, 148; and 45 schools in Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan. The remaining 30 schools were in the Gaeltacht.

Sub-head R (1). £1,117. Forestry Education.—The Forestry School at Avondale is now functioning satisfactorily. A junior forestry inspector who acts as superintendent and instructor was appointed during the past year, and he has now in charge 21 resident trainees. Altogether the Department have now 34 trainees—12 third year, 12 second year, and nine first year, and one trainee who has completed his training but has not yet been appointed a foreman.

Sub-head H. £9,150. Appropriations-in-Aid.—The estimated income to be obtained from all sources is shown under this sub-head, and a considerable increase is anticipated this year principally from sales of round timber.

Forestry Act, 1928.—The provisions of the Forestry Act, 1928, which require the lodgment of felling notices in respect of any trees proposed to be cut is working smoothly, though some prosecutions have still to be undertaken for breaches of the Act, generally resulting in the offenders being fined. The number of felling notices lodged last year was 2,514, as against 2,750 in the previous year. The lodgment of these notices enables the Department to control tree-felling effectively, and prohibition orders are issued where necessary, and licences to fell are given only in respect of those trees which it is considered, after an inspection, the owner should be permitted to fell.

Professor O'Sullivan

I do not intend to say very much on this Vote, for the reason that I know so very little about it. I would like, following the Minister's exposition, to put him a few questions that have been suggested by what he put before the House—at least as much of the House as is present. He referred, I think, to an unexpended sum of about £82,000 in connection with the plan of planting that did not come to realisation.

Mr. Boland

For the purchase of land.

Professor O'Sullivan

It was anticipated, at the beginning of last year, that certain preparatory work, possibly the purchase of land, would be undertaken, but actually the Department's forecast in that respect has not been realised. The reason that I raise the question is not to criticise the thing itself, but to ask the Minister whether he has any idea as to the future of forestry in the country as a whole, beyond saying glibly that he expects there will be a planting of 10,000 acres per year. We can all expect and hope for that. I suggest that portion of his exposition—I mean before he began to deal with the several sub-heads— hardly gave any ground on which we could justify an opinion as to whether that is likely to be borne out or not.

The Minister spoke particularly of the difficulty of purchasing suitable land. Is the Department in a position to know how much suitable land there is for forestry in the Free State, suitable not merely for the growing of trees, but land that economically could be turned to forestry? I gather that a large number of people are quite willing to offer land of a certain type to the Forestry Department because it is no good to them, and that a general view prevails in the country that that is precisely the land that is suitable for growing trees. The Forestry Department has an entirely different opinion. Now, my difficulty is this: it is quite obvious, from the Department's experience as retailed to us by the Minister, that it is difficult to get suitable land, because every type of land is not suitable for growing trees. Land for that purpose must possess certain qualities: shelter, conditions of soil, and so on. What I would like to know from the Minister is this: is the Department yet in a position to say whether there is a considerable quantity of land in the country suitable for afforestation, such land as it would be economic to turn into woodlands—that is, land not good enough, say, for pasture, for sowing crops in, or something of that kind. If so, what amount is there of such land available, and what difficulty has the Department experienced in, say, the last 12 months in getting land of that type? Would the Minister say if difficulty is caused in negotiating a price with owners?

The Minister, in one portion of his speech, referred to the fact that grants for the private planting of trees were not being availed of. Surely the experience of the Department itself should urge him to be lenient with some of those people who do not apply for grants. The advance made has been disappointing to the Department. I believe they are sincerely anxious to get on with this work, but it is obvious that there is some difficulty in the way.

What I really would like to get from the Minister is whether the Department has any wide-embracing plan that would allow us to form some idea as to the future of afforestation in this country. The Minister speaks of the desirability of it from an economic point of view and from the State point of view I can grasp that. The question is whether he will get many private individuals to look upon it as an economic proposition. After all, you have to wait pretty long for the return. The State can afford to do that but I doubt if private individuals can. Therefore we must rely practically exclusively on work by the State. Has the State a plan really about the future of afforestation in this country? The Minister's predecessor was particularly interested in this matter. It was a matter to which he gave considerable attention. It was quite obvious that there is a desire on the part of the Government to go on with this. Are there insuperable difficulties arising from the soil and economic and climatic conditions in the way that prevent rapid advance? It was on the general question really and not on the detailed question that I wanted to raise that matter with the Minister. How do we stand as regards the future of the industry?

Mr. Goulding

It was very gratifying to listen to the Minister's report and to find that at last we are apparently making advance in reafforestation. The pity is that private owners are not taking more advantage of the facilities offered to plant on their own grounds. But, as Deputy O'Sullivan pointed out, afforestation is a long-term investment and the average private individual is not in a position to invest money out of which he expects no return for well over 20 years. I take it, therefore, that we may have to rely entirely on the State to see that reafforestation is carried out. I should like to know from the Minister if there is control exercised over the export of timber in the round at the moment. I think we are beginning again to export timber in the round. Many of us believe it is a very uneconomic method of exporting timber. Personally, I should like to see a total prohibition of the export of timber in the round except immature timber used for pit wood.

Another point to which I wish to refer is that I notice that for the past few years there has been a great scarcity of spruce. Of all the soft timbers, I think spruce is the most valuable. In future, spruce will become one of the greatest assets any country can possess. The Department should endeavour to see that as much spruce as possible is planted. As regards the offers of land made by tenants to the Forestry Department, many of these people offered land really unsuitable for agricultural purposes but which would suit admirably for afforestation. The difficulty is that the majority of them have only comparatively small areas of land to offer—20, 30, or 50 acres. Would it be possible to combine a number of these in a particular area so as to arrive at what would be an economic number of acres? I think it would be possible. The drawback I see is that probably the allotments might be isolated from each other and the fencing would be a difficulty. It should be possible to overcome that if the people could be got together and agreed to endeavour to give portions of land as close together as possible so as to form an economic unit.

There is nothing really to criticise in this Estimate. Our one regret is that the Department cannot go even faster than it is going at present. The Minister referred to planting in the Gaeltacht. We happen to have a portion of the Gaeltacht in County Waterford in which there is a large area suitable for planting. I understand that it was the intention of the Department to provide a forestry centre there, and I should be very glad to know what progress has been made in that direction.

Mr. Everett

I wish to congratulate the Forestry Department on the increased progress made in the County Wicklow. It has not been, of course, all that we would desire. I consider the Forestry Department one of the most important in the State. For that reason I suggest that some pressure should be brought to bear upon the Executive Council, or whoever has control of these matters, to get a greater amount of money for afforestation. I also ask the Minister to endeavour to get the co-operation of the public boards in this matter. There is a lack of co-operation between the public boards and the Forestry Department at present. I am aware that some public boards organise an Arbor Day themselves and plant 300 or 400 trees each year. If that were done on a larger scale by co-operation between the public boards and the Forestry Department, the public would take a greater interest than is at present taken in reafforestation.

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the different conditions which prevail in the employment of men by the Department. Where you have a foreman with a human outlook things are not so bad, but when you have, as in County Wicklow, seven or eight centres, with different conditions prevailing in each centre, it is no wonder that you have a general strike of the employees extending over a considerable time. From the 1st March the men had to work an hour longer per day. In one centre the men were kept out working in the rain, and, when unable to continue working after two or three hours owing to the wet weather, they were compelled to walk six miles to a hut or shelter and remain there until 5.30 in the evening. If they left they were not allowed for the half-day they had worked. A day's pay was stopped from them if they left after the half-day. In other areas, such as Avondale and Glendalough, if a man, after cycling six or seven miles in the morning to work, was ten minutes late, he was not allowed to start until 10 a'clock, and while he worked for a three-quarter day, he was only allowed a half-day's pay.

I communicated with the Minister about these conditions. We have this secret inter-departmental committee advising about wages. They advise the Land Commission and the Forestry Department. I notice that they always forget to advise the Minister's Department about humane conditions for the employees, although they are very strict with regard to the wages paid. I do not know if the strike of 500 or 600 men in this case has yet been finally settled. Various promises were made to the men by the officials sent down. I was glad to hear that the strike was settled, even temporarily, in the hope that the Minister would inquire into the whole matter. The responsibility, in my opinion, rests upon the foreman. If foremen keep 50 or 100 men out in weather such as we have experienced during this winter in a place like Glen Imaal, and if they have then to go some distance for shelter and remain there for six or seven hours, it is not going to make them take an interest in their work.

The Minister must admit that the system is altogether wrong, apart from the different rates of wages paid. At present if they lose a day's work they lose 7/6, although they are only allowed 4/6 a day when working. I have not been able to find out why the conditions are different. I admit that we are told that the men get a half-day on Saturday, but they work an extra half-hour on other days of the week. The maximum rate of wages paid in County Wicklow is 30/-, but if a man loses ten minutes he is only paid for a half-day's work. That has created discontent amongst the 500 employees in County Wicklow. The men are glad to have work, but it is inhuman to ask them, after a journey of six or seven miles, to plant trees on a mountain in the weather that we have experienced in recent months. Certain foremen, acting in an inhuman manner, compelled the men to remain at work until their clothes were saturated, and then they had to spend six or seven hours sheltering in a hut. If they went home they lost 7/6 for the day. I called attention to these matters privately, and now that they are being ventilated publicly, probably the Minister will take an interest in them, and will have some other arrangements made. When a man employed by the Forestry Department finds that he is unable to work owing to bad weather it should be remembered that his wife and children have to be fed, and that there is no use telling them that he was not paid for the day owing to the wet weather. If men have to go home sick the same methods are adopted. That is all the fault of local foremen.

I can give the Minister a list of centres where the foremen have a sympathetic outlook and where there is no disaffection. It is where certain men are placed in important positions as foremen that the greatest friction arises; where men are kept working in the rain as if they were military, and where if they are five minutes late they are fined 2/6. As that has been going on for years, the sooner there is a change in the conditions and in the outlook of the foremen the better. I am glad that there are so many students in Avondale, as I believe that, with the practical experience they are getting of working with the men for three years, when they become charge-hands they will appreciate the conditions involved in connection with this work. I appeal to the Minister to look into this matter personally and to make some general order, so that men within a field of one another will not be working under different conditions, as is the case in County Wicklow. The men are not being treated in a humane way. If foremen continue to adopt the tactics that have been adopted the men will not be encouraged to take an interest in their work.

I suggest to the Minister that he should endeavour to get closer co-operation in this work from the public bodies. In urban and rural centres public bodies should take greater interest in it. All the public bodies that I know of have some spare land, on which, during February and March, they might hold an Arbour Day and have trees planted in co-operation with the Forestry Department. I congratulate the Minister on the work that has been done during the past few years, and on the increased interest that has been taken in tree-planting by the Department. I trust the Minister will go still further and that he will demand a larger sum from the Executive Council, because such work is beneficial to the whole country. If men are employed on forestry work there will be a good return in the future, as it is not a case of "money for nothing." If the working conditions are improved, public bodies, labour unions and all sections in the country will take a greater interest in forestry.

Mr. Bartley

I was rather interested in the statement of Deputy Everett that 500 men are employed in forestry in County Wicklow. In Connemara we are disappointed because the Forestry Department did not see its way to take some land that was offered for that purpose. There was a pretty large acreage offered in Connemara, and while trees might not grow in some places, we felt that an experiment should have been made, at least in some districts. I refer particularly to land offered in the Cloose Valley at Oughterard, where the butts of trees that were cut down during the war are still to be seen. It is felt that a place that grew trees up to 20 years ago should be a suitable place now for an afforestation scheme. I understand that that proposal has been turned down. I am not certain of the facts, but I was told that that was the position, and that it was the same at Recess and other districts where trees grew in the past. It is felt that trees could again be grown in these places, and that the Forestry Department should at least have tried one or two experiments and not act according to whatever theoretical ideas the Department may hold on this question. I ask the Minister to impress upon the Forestry Department the importance of such experiments in Connemara, as well as from the point of view of employment and other considerations. At least they should try experiments at Oughterard and Recess districts.

Mr. Corish

One can understand Deputy Everett congratulating the Minister, in view of the fact that 500 men are engaged in forestry in that county. I wish to congratulate Deputy Everett and the Minister on that fact. I should like to know what is the position in connection with tree-planting in County Wexford. What progress has been made in the planting of the Forth Mountain, Barntown? Some trees have been planted in recent years, and a good deal of ground prepared, but many people in the vicinity consider that a great deal more should have been done. I should like to know from the Minister if the Department is going to do anything else there, or to plant any more trees in the area. I should like to know also if he has taken advantage of the offer made by the people who own the Leigh Estate, Rosegarland, Wellington Bridge, County Wexford. So far as I know, a great many offers of land have been made in County Wexford within recent years, and I think very little advantage has been taken of them by the Forestry Department. I think the time has arrived when Wexford should get its share of any tree-planting that is to be done.

I want to support the plea made by Deputy Everett in connection with the conditions under which men are engaged for work by the Forestry Department. In the very little work that was done in County Wexford, we were confronted with the same position so far as the conditions were concerned, and I think the sooner the Forestry Department issue some general order in connection with the conditions under which the men work, the better. So far as wet time is concerned, it seems to be left to the whim or fancy of the particular foreman in charge of a particular district. Men have been known to walk or to ride five, six or seven miles to their work and then be turned back. Surely something should be given to an unfortunate man who rides or walks six or seven miles to his work in the morning? After all, these people are engaged in a national occupation, one might say, and an occupation of which we would like to see more in the country. I do agree with Deputy Everett when he suggests that there should be some definite rule laid down as to men working on wet days or half wet days, and that the Department should not be cheeseparing in the matter of an hour, or half-hour, or even quarter of a day, when unfortunate men are wet through. I should like definitely to know from the Minister what has been done in connection with the offers made by certain land owners in County Wexford to give land for forestry purposes; whether anything further is to be done on the Forth Mountain; and whether any planting is to be done on the Leigh estate at Wellington Bridge, County Wexford?

Mr. T.J. Murphy

My purpose in intervening in this debate is to remind the Minister of the almost unlimited opportunities there are for an extension of the Forestry Department's activities in County Cork, and particularly in the western portion of the county. Unfortunately, we have a very large area of land in that part of the county which is not suited for ordinary agricultural purposes and while, perhaps, a good deal of that land would not be considered by the Forestry Department to be exactly suitable for their operations, we should like to make their acquaintance in a more intimate fashion than we have up to the present. It is right to say, and it is true, that some beginning has been made, and, while we are thankful for small mercies, I hope the Minister will not be content to allow us to depend only on small mercies in the future. I want to make a special plea for a portion of that area which I am afraid has been forgotten generally in the economic administration for which the Government is responsible, that is, the purely Gaeltacht area of Ballingeary. I am aware that proposals for the acquisition of a considerable amount of land in Ballingeary have been under consideration by the Department for some time, and I am aware also that there have been certain difficulties, rather unusual difficulties in some cases, experienced, but I do urge that a special effort should be made to get over the difficulties and to do something for that area which has been entirely forgotten in the last few years. Existence in that area is hard enough in ordinary circumstances and there is certainly, and I am sure the Minister would concede this, a special case to be made for it.

Like Deputy O'Sullivan, I, and those of us who try to make ourselves closely acquainted with the operations of the Department, find that a great deal of difficulty arises around the question of what is considered suitable land. I often wondered, in connection with land that is considered by the Forestry Department to be unsuitable for the planting of certain types of trees, whether it could not be considered suitable for the planting of some kind of trees, and I would urge that on the Minister as a matter worthy of consideration. The trees might not be in the end as valuable, but the whole countryside would be immensely bettered by the planting of some kind of trees, and there is certainly an amount of land that cannot be considered good for anything else. I hope I am right in thinking that that land would grow timber of some kind. That might be considered.

I, too, feel that the Minister ought to do something to standardise working conditions and wages on this public work. I dissent entirely from the view that there is any comparison between wage standards on work of this kind and ordinary agricultural employment. After all, this is State employment, and I think the State ought to be a model employer in every branch of the public service, and that in this particular connection it is a specialised kind of work that cannot be properly or fairly compared with agricultural work. The Minister knows that the employees on forestry work are not covered by the Conditions of Employment Act, but he must be aware also that, if that is so, because of the comparison of this work with agricultural work, there are certain rather striking discrepancies. Agricultural workers do not, in the main, work on Church holydays in the country. I understand that forestry workers are not paid in respect of Church holydays. They do not get the benefit of the Conditions of Employment Act and the wages they get are small. Last week, the Minister was good enough to answer a question regarding a particular case in County Cork where, on a forestry plantation, workers had their wages reduced in 1929. The only hope the Minister was able to hold out to them was that when the Agricultural Wages Board had taken some decisions with regard to agricultural labour, their position would be looked into. I am afraid that is rather poor encouragement. The Minister ought to go beyond that and endeavour to have the wages which were reduced in 1929 restored. Furthermore, he ought to remove the penal disqualification imposed on men who, on losing one-and-a-half day's employment owing to weather conditions or for some other cause, find themselves at the end of the week with one-and-a-half day's less pay. I think these points are worthy of the consideration of the Minister. It is right to say—I have pleasure in saying it—that I have found the officials of the Forestry Department extremely courteous and helpful. One has a very happy experience on going to the Forestry Department to resolve difficulties. One is always met there as well as officials could meet them, and an endeavour is made to have difficulties smoothed out. I hope that opportunities will arise which will give more occasion for interviewing the Minister and his officials with regard to the operations of the Department in the future.

Mr. Beegan

I desire to draw the Minister's attention to a few large tracts of land offered to the Forestry Department in County Galway. I understand that this land was inspected and favourably reported upon. The obstacle appears to be that there are a few farmers on the land who were not prepared to sell for the small amount offered to them. They were, however, prepared to take exchange holdings, much smaller in size, if they got suitable tillage land. Under existing legislation, I understand that the Land Commission cannot treat these holders as migrants, as the land they would be leaving after them would not be suitable for the relief of congestion and could not be rearranged. That is a matter that should be adjusted, because the men who own the land are hard workers, and if they got holdings would work them in a proper, agricultural manner. Two fairly big schemes in South Galway—the poorest area in Galway—are being held up in this way. If that difficulty could be surmounted and if work could be started, I can guarantee the Minister that there would be no representations regarding dissatisfaction with the labour conditions there.

Mr. Hogan

Very few people in my constituency are aware of the existence of the Forestry Department. One can hardly blame them, because the Department's activities are negligible in that area. There was some little work done at Cratloe but nothing which would indicate the existence of a Forestry Department to the people generally. That is not because suitable land for planting has not been brought to the notice of the Minister. When I say that, I mean to the notice of the Department of which he is head, because the present Minister has not had sufficient time to acquaint himself with the circumstances of the huge Department over which he presides.

For several years, I have been endeavouring to get the Forestry Department to give a decision regarding a large tract of land between Clare and Galway with a view to having it planted. There are various conflicting reports with regard to that stretch. We were told that it could be planted and we were told that it could not be planted. We were told that there was too much acid in the soil and we were told that that was not a serious defect and that it could be remedied. Like a Deputy who spoke a few minutes ago, I wonder how it is that some 20 years ago some thousands of pounds worth of timber was taken off that land for the purpose of lining the trenches in the Great War. Yet, we are told to-day that that land is not suitable for forestry. Surely, some attempt should be made to plant it. In that area there is a great deal of unemployment. Of course, all over the county there is a great deal of unemployment—about 7,000 or 8,000—but that area is particularly affected. The Minister should see that steps are taken to improve the position in that district and to secure that this land be acquired for afforestation.

I do not propose to say what is the exact position as between the conflicting reports. I learn on reliable authority that, at least, £1,000 worth of timber was taken from that area and sent across during the Great War to line the trenches. It is peculiar that the land has either improved or deteriorated—I do not know which— to such an extent that it will not now grow trees. If it grew timber 20 years ago, it is strange that it will not grow timber to-day.

I should like to emphasise what has been said regarding the bad conditions under which employees of the Forestry Department operate. I know that representations have been made from several places with regard to these conditions. Some of these places are, of course, outside my own constituency. I know that representations have been made from Cratloe and from outside Gort, where tree planting is proceeding. If there is anything on which the Minister is to be congratulated, it is the consistency with which he maintains the Government policy of cutting down wages. He must be congratulated on that because he has not gone out of step with the other Government Departments. He has kept in step with the other Government Departments in regard to the payment of wages, and his Department is just as bad as regards conditions of employment as any of the other employing departments. I ask the Minister to give serious consideration to these matters. It cannot be really said that employment under the Forestry Department is in the nature of relief work. Afforestation is not relief work. It is increasing the national wealth to a great degree. While a case may be made—a very bad case—for putting people, because they are poor, on a reduced rate of wages on relief works, that case cannot be made in respect of employment under the Forestry Department. The work of that Department increases the national wealth, but the rate of wages paid is below that operating in any of the areas.

I regret to say that this Arbor Day part of the scheme has been a complete failure for all practicable purposes. I would like to hear from Deputies who have spoken some comment on this scheme, and I would like to hear from them some instructive proposal with regard to developing that aspect of the Department's activities. I notice that a sum of £400 has been allocated for Arbor Day for the current financial year for the entire Free State. There is no use in talking about a sum like £400 for the purpose of developing tree planting amongst the school children. When one looks at it, that is quite obvious. A sum like that would lead nowhere. It would only mean that one or two trees could be planted in each school grounds, for, as a matter of fact, there is scarcely any land attached to rural schools.

I wonder if the Minister would consider developing that side of the question? Will he do anything to extend the scope of Arbor Day? It occurs to me that if the senior boys in the school were asked to take so many trees each year, wire in a plot of ground in their homes and get that little spot planted by themselves or their fathers or brothers under the supervision of the local forestry inspector, it would be doing something to develop this idea of Arbor Day. If, at the end of the year, they were given a prize of 10/-, 15/- or £1 for protecting the planted trees and induced to continue their efforts in the ensuing years extending the plantation to double the amount of ground planted the first year, in the course of time their activities would lead to a change in the countryside. The area of ground planted each year would not be large, but where there is a young family the ground planted by that family would come to an acre in ten years. If some little sum was allocated each year in the way of prizes (1) for planting and (2) for protecting the trees, this Arbor Day idea, which is now only a joke and a complete failure, would be turned into a success. There is scarcely any land attached to the rural schools. They are built on the roadside and there would be very little room for the trees. I suggest that, between now and next year, the distinguished man who has been brought into the State as forestry chief would look into this aspect of the problem and try to get the young people interested in tree planting, even in a small way. If school children each put down only 20 or 30 trees, have the plantation protected with barbed wire and given an assurance that if at the end of the year the trees are found to be flourishing, they would be given a small prize of 10/-, 15/- or £1, very much would be done in the way of afforestation in the course of ten years. Something bolder than this will have to be done if this is going to lead anywhere. There is no reason why it should not. The country is full of children. There are too many adults to do the work that is to be done and these young boys are running around doing nothing. It would be a great idea to turn their minds on to a matter of this kind, and it would, perhaps, substantially assist the Minister in doing something to improve the appearance of the countryside.

The counties that really want adornment are the western counties. The scenery is there and that is where the tourists go. In wet weather these places look dismal and bleak, nothing but naked rocks and bogs; they present a drab appearance. What a change even if there were only a few acres here and there planted. The Minister should make a determined effort with regard to clothing the country again with timber. Along with Deputy Bartley and other western Deputies, I am rather exasperated with this annual reply: "No suitable land in these counties." I would like the Minister to do something definite, to arrive at an independent conclusion in this matter. I do not think he will ever get the public to agree with him that it is impossible to grow timber in portions of the western counties. Of course, in those parts exposed to the sea nothing can be done, but inland there are considerable areas that could readily grow timber.

Mr. Boland

Vote put and agreed to.

Dáil Éireann debate - Tuesday, 27 Apr 1937