Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Oct 1937

Vol. 69 No. 2

Public Business. - Presidential Elections Bill, 1937—Second Stage.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. Seán T. O Ceallaigh)

I move, that this Bill be now read a second time. During the discussion in the House of the Draft Constitution, which has lately been enacted by the people, Article 12, which deals with the office of President was fully debated, and the fundamental provisions relating to the office, that is to say, the qualification of a person to be President, the nomination of a candidate for election and the franchise and voting are all set out in the Article of the Constitution to which I have referred.

This Bill, therefore, contains the provisions which are in the nature of rules for carrying the provisions of the Constitution into effect and for regulating the nomination of candidates and, where necessary, the taking of a poll. The procedure for the election of a President of Ireland, as outlined in the Constitution, is a new thing for which there is no analogy in present or former legislation; parts of that procedure closely resemble different parts of procedure in relation to other elections; but taken as a whole, it is a procedure for which no model exists.

The Bill is divided into three parts: Part I needs but little explanation. The Bill will come into operation immediately after the coming into operation of the Constitution. The dates for the various stages of the election will be appointed by order of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. These dates must, however, be so fixed that the election will be completed in time to enable the President elected to enter upon his office not later than 180 days after the coming into operation of the Constitution. In fixing dates, the possibility of the poll being countermanded under Section 32 must be taken into account and the date for the poll, if any, will be earlier than the last day for that reason. The presidential returning officer will be appointed by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. This provision follows existing precedents.

Part II of the Bill deals with the nomination of candidates. The Constitution requires a nomination to be made by not less than 20 members of the Oireachtas, or by the councils of four county or county borough councils. With regard to nominations by members of the Oireachtas, it is provided that if a member of the Oireachtas signs two or more valid nomination papers, the first one received will alone be taken into account, and the other nomination paper or papers will be disregarded.

A county or county borough council may resolve to nominate a named person to be a candidate at a presidential election. Such a resolution cannot be passed before the Order appointing dates is made in respect of the election to which the resolution relates, and once a resolution is passed, it cannot be rescinded. Before the resolution is passed by a council not less than three clear days' notice of the intention to propose the resolution must have been given to each person who was a member of the council at the time when such notice was given. Local government law requires this interval between the giving of notice of a special meeting and the holding of a special meeting. The resolution of a council to nominate a person to be a candidate will be given effect to by means of a nomination paper sealed with the seal of the council. The form of nomination paper appears as Form 2 in the Second Schedule to this Bill. A nomination paper sent to the presidential returning officer under this Bill, which is regular and valid on its face will be conclusive evidence that the resolution mentioned in the nomination paper was duly proposed and passed on the date mentioned in the nomination paper at a meeting properly convened and held of the council whose seal is affixed to the nomination paper. If the presidential returning officer receives from the council of a county or county borough two or more nominations regular on their face and relating to the same election all such nomination papers will be invalid, and will be disregarded. All nomination papers received by the presidential returning officer will be produced by him at 12 noon on the last day for receiving nominations, at the place appointed, and he will then and there rule on the nominations. This proceeding is described in the Bill as the ruling on nominations.

The procedure at the ruling will be somewhat different from the procedure at the receiving of nominations at a Dáil election. This election is to fill the highest office in the State, and the rules are designed to invest the returning officer with all the powers necessary to give finality to his rulings, and to prevent the nomination or the election of a candidate who is not under the Constitution and the law entitled to be nominated or elected. Accordingly, it is provided that a candidate must attend the ruling on nominations either in person or by an authorised representative. He must furnish all such information relevant to himself or any nomination paper purporting to nominate him as shall be reasonably required. Every question relevant to the nomination of a candidate (including the eligibility of the candidate) will be open and may be raised by the returning officer or by any other person present and entitled to take part in the proceedings. The decision of the returning officer on any question connected with the nomination of a candidate will be final subject to reference to the judicial assessor.

The President of the High Court, or some other judge appointed by him, will attend the ruling on nominations, and will sit and act as judicial assessor. He may, on the application of the returning officer, disallow the nomination of a candidate on the grounds that the candidate had not attended the ruling on nominations, that is to say, in person, or by an authorised representative, or that he had failed to furnish information respecting himself or his nomination.

A candidate may withdraw from his candidature during the ruling on nominations, but the withdrawal must be by notice in writing signed and delivered by the candidate or his authorised representative to the returning officer during the ruling. If only one person is declared to stand nominated, the returning officer will declare that person to be elected as President of Ireland. If two or more persons are declared to stand nominated, the returning officer will adjourn the election for the purpose of taking a poll. Provision is also made for the cancellation of the election, or the countermand of the poll if a candidate should die. The election will be taken by secret ballot and the poll will be taken in every Dáil constituency as at a general election and according to the same procedure.

I may here mention that there is no provision for challenging or trying the validity of a presidential election on account of alleged corrupt practices. It seems proper to assume that the persons who will go forward as candidates will be persons of high moral standing who would not stoop to endeavouring to secure their election by dishonest means. Serious allegations of corrupt practices at a presidential election on such a scale as to affect the result of the election would be such a grave public scandal that it could not be left to an ordinary election tribunal, but would have to be dealt with specially by the Legislature in such solemn manner as the circumstances might suggest. There is always, however, the possibility that some of a candidate's supporters might let their zeal outrun their discretion and might be guilty of conduct which should be made amenable to the criminal law; accordingly the Bill incorporates such portions of the Prevention of Electoral Abuses Act, 1923, as relate to corrupt practices by individuals other than a candidate and his agents. The candidate will have an agent to assist him in the same manner as an agent assists a candidate at a Dáil election, and he will also have a local agent for each constituency. The local agents will appoint personation agents and agents to attend the counting of the votes.

At the conclusion of the poll in each constituency, the ballot boxes will be collected and opened by the local returning officer, who will decide on the validity of the ballot papers. He will then sort the papers according to first preferences and arrange the first preferences in parcels, and a certificate as to the name of the candidate and the number of first preferences will be endorsed on the packets. This certificate will be shown to the agents. The parcels of first preferences with the certificates will then be sent to the presidential returning officer. If the presidential returning officer is not satisfied that the certificate is accurate, he will be entitled to recount the number of ballot papers in each parcel, and make any alteration in the certificate as may be necessary by reason of such recount.

The quota will be half the total number of valid votes plus one. If there are only two candidates no further counting will be necessary. One candidate will have the quota, except in the most unlikely case of each candidate having the same number of votes. In such a case, the returning officer will decide by lot to be taken as prescribed by the rules. If there are three or more candidates, and no candidate has a quota the presidential returning officer will eliminate the candidate with the lowest number of votes and transfer the papers according to second preferences. The agents of the candidates will be entitled to be present at the counting of votes by the presidential returning officer. On completion of the counting of the votes the returning officer will send to the Taoiseach a certificate stating the name of the candidate elected, the total number of votes given for each candidate and any transfer of votes made. A copy of the certificate will be published in the Iris Oifigiúil.

The documents sent to the presidential returning officer will be retained by him for six months and will then be destroyed. No sealed packet of counterfoils may be opened and no counted ballot paper may at any time be inspected save under and in accordance with an order of the High Court, and no such order may be made unless the reason therefor is necessary and proper.

Mr. Brennan

Since the House has decided to present the country with this ornament, I suppose this machinery must be provided. Personally, I think that the machinery that is being provided for the election of a President is, in some of its details, at least very cumbersome, particularly in relation to the manner in which local authorities may select a candidate for the presidential office. In the first place, I do not think you could get any four county or county borough councils really to make up their minds that they are going to nominate somebody, and I am afraid that that is really put in as a sort of a blind, if you like, because I do not think it will be ever met. With regard to Section 10, of course, this matter was raised originally on the debate on the Constitution and I do not propose to raise it in the same manner now and I am not endeavouring to do any such thing. This section deals with giving the right of nomination to the ex-President. My memory does not serve me very well with regard to the Constitution, and I have not got a copy of it by me at the moment, but I do not know whether it is stated there that an ex-President, who had been impeached by the House, would be deprived of the right of nominating himself again and thereby forcing a very costly contest on the country. If it is not so stated, however, I think the Minister ought to provide some kind of machinery in this section which would prevent that happening. I think that can be done.

I also think that, even though that section is in the Constitution, which gives the retiring President the right to nominate himself again, the very same reason that I have stated with regard to a President who might have been impeached might also apply to a President who had not been impeached but who might have become very unpopular and whom the people might not desire to have as President again. Yet, under this section, he would have the right to nominate himself, under his own hand, without any authority or any sanction either by county councils or members of the Dáil or members of the Seanad. I think the Minister ought to see that some condition shall be imposed to deal with a case like this and that no man will have the right, of his own volition, without assistance or authority from somebody else, to force a contest of this type and this magnitude which would mean that a very disturbing matter was going to be put on the country. I do not think it is fair that such a contest should be forced on the country without having due regard to the way in which people should be nominated for it. Personally, I do not think that the contest for a presidential election, as laid down by the machinery here, will be any improvement on the kind of election we had for Senators formerly because, after all, the people are not going to have much interest in this. It is not very much their concern. Their laws are made by the Dáil, reviewed by the Seanad, and so on, and as far as this ornament to the State is concerned he does not count much. I think, however, that every safeguard that can be taken should be taken to see that no contest is unduly put on the country. Every safeguard of that kind that can be taken ought to be taken by the Minister.

Another section to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention in connection with this is Section 20. In one of the sections of the Bill it is set out that the returning officer for the constituencies for this election will be the same returning officer as if it had been a Dáil election. That being so, it is fair to assume that the county registrar, in most cases, will be the returning officer. Now, we have set out here, in sub-section (2) of Section 20, that the Minister for Finance, if he thinks fit, before payment of the charges of any local returning officer, may refer the matter of the taxation of such account to a judge of the Circuit Court having jurisdiction in the constituency, and that the Circuit Court judge may refer the matter to the county registrar to be determined by him. I do not see any safeguard in that. After all, if we are going to provide a safeguard, let it be a safeguard; let there be no humbug about it. If we are going to have an inquiry down in a county held by a Circuit Court judge into the charges on the expenses of the county registrar, it is no safeguard, and it is not any use to the people of this country who have to pay taxes, to say that the matter is going to be referred to the county registrar himself.

On the whole, I think that this Bill, as before the House, has not got enough attention, and while, as I said before, we have made provision in the Constitution for the election of Uachtarán na h-Eireann, we must provide the machinery for it. Consequently, we on this side of the House have no desire to oppose the machinery, but we want as far as possible to see that the machinery is in order, and we are particularly anxious to see that a contest shall not be forced upon this country unduly and that some nincompoop or another has not the right to nominate himself, without any sanction or condition from anyone, thereby forcing a contest on the country and putting the country to a lot of expense.

Mr. Cosgrave

There are one or two points which I should like to raise on this measure. When this Dáil was first set up the view was expressed from practically all sections of the House that every step possible should be taken to prevent personation at elections, to ensure that every person entitled to vote would be able to exercise that right and that no person would have more than one vote, and so on. We need not go back on these things now, whether steps, as far as they could be taken according to law, were so taken. As far as my information goes, there has been considerable departure from those early virtuous announcements from all Parties and there is no special effort, so far as this measure is concerned, to ensure any special precautions with regard to it.

Now, in the recent elections in the City and County of Dublin a good many complaints have arisen regarding names that are on the Register that ought not to be on the Register, and, on the other hand, about names which ought to be on the Register and which are not returned. So that, while we have in the Constitution, both in the past and in the intermediate Constitution, which we are told has now been sanctioned by the people, the giving of the same right to exercise the franchise, the fact is that the steps that have been taken, whether by the State in so far as it is concerned or by the voluntary work of individuals, have not made certain that persons who are entitled to vote are on the Register. That is the first point I should like to raise; whether the Minister has considered, in connection with the present construction of the franchise lists, if some special effort might be made to ensure that persons entitled to vote would be on the Register, and secondly, that persons would not be registered on the Register of Electors a second time.

There is a second point that I should like to raise. I was not in a position to hear the Minister very well when he spoke, as he spoke in a very low voice in introducing this measure and I could not follow him with regard to quite a number of explanations that he gave of the measure. I take it, however, that he dealt in some manner with explanations as regards the authority and the exercise of the jurisdiction of the returning officer to reject certain nominations, or rather to reject a nomination paper if it had some imperfection in it. From the measure as it is before us, I could not gather that there is provision for the rejection of a nomination in the event of something being imperfect in the construction of the nomination paper. Mention is made in the measure of the nomination by a county council or a county borough council of more than one candidate and that where that happens it would amount to disqualification. So far as the Bill is drawn, I think there is something in the case made by Deputy Brennan—that it is cumbersome. I think a more direct method could have been arrived at for dealing with that situation—either that the first nomination from a council would stand and no other be received or, alternatively, that the responsible officer of the local authority would send only one nomination paper.

It seems to me peculiar, if I have read the Bill correctly, or understood correctly what I could hear of the Minister's explanation, that the county council or the county borough council might possibly send up more than one name. It seems to me rather difficult to imagine a situation of that sort occurring where you have as efficient and competent officials responsible for the despatch of business in local authorities as you have in the Civil Service.

I should like the Minister to tell us whether the presidential returning officer, or whoever is the highest officer in connection with this measure, has the right to reject a nomination simply from an imperfection on its face. If 20 or 25 members of the Dáil subscribe their names to a nomination paper and, perhaps, leave some particular line blank that ought to be filled up, would that enable the returning officer to reject that nomination? Similarly, with regard to a local authority, would anything wrong on the face of the document itself mean that the nomination paper would be declared invalid?

The next point I want to make is a very small one. The Minister has referred to the fact that there might be a dead-heat at an election for President. It occurs in the course of this measure, as it occurs in the case of ordinary elections, that where a person who is entitled to vote finds that his vote has been already cast by some other person, he takes an oath and is presented with a different coloured paper from the ordinary ballot paper. These votes are never counted I believe except at an election petition. Special mention is made here in more than one section, I think, as regards what is to happen in the case of a person applying for a ballot paper who finds that he has been already voted for. His ballot paper is to be put into a separate compartment. I could not gather from the Bill, from the hasty examination I made of it, whether when all those votes come from the different constituencies, and amongst the ballot papers to be counted there may be some of these yellow papers, there is to be a general mixing up at headquarters, or whether each constituency will be kept separate so that, in the event of a tie in a particular constituency, a count might be made of the yellow papers. I take it that, although each constituency will vote separately, a decision will not be taken in each constituency; that is, if there is a majority of 50 in one and 49 in another, it does not follow that these are level—there would be a majority of one as between the two.

The Bill, as presented, I suppose follows out what has been adopted, or is said to have been adopted in the Constitution. The Minister did not give us the figures of the votes on the Constitution either as regards the number of votes cast in favour of it, the number of votes cast against it, the number of invalid votes and the number of people who voted altogether on the Constitution. If my recollection is correct, less than a majority of the votes cast were cast in favour of the Constitution. I believe that in all but four constituencies the law which was enacted here was disobeyed and votes were counted which had "yes" or "no" on them instead of "X". The Minister, I think, had charge of that particular measure and I am taking it that it is held in his Department and by the Executive Council that the Constitution is passed.

The next point I want to make is that we had the experience already in this country some 14 years ago of a country-wide constituency, when there were a number of candidates up for election as Senators. There was not the same interest taken in that election as there were in the other ones, although there were quite a number of candidates. In this case, I take it, that if there be a contest the contestants will require to have personation agents all over the country. The cost of these arrangements will fall upon the candidate I presume. Could the Minister give us the estimated cost of this particular election so far as the State is concerned? I suppose that matter will come up on the Money Resolution, but if I am asking the question before the proper time, it will give the Minister notice of the raising of the question next week or the week after when the Money Resolution is being taken. I presume it will cost much the same sum of money as a general election.

I should like to know from the Minister, (1) whether his Department has considered special steps to be taken to ensure a better register; (2) whether his Department has considered if the present law as it stands is sufficient to prevent personation; (3) whether in case of personation the present position could not be improved upon so that a person whose vote has been stolen will have the right to exercise the franchise and have his vote recorded rather than tucked away in a special compartment. The last question is, whether in the exercise of the jurisdiction of this new returning officer regard will be had to the right of the persons nominated and facilities be afforded to them in the event of the instrument employed, that is the nomination paper, being wrong in any technical particular and that the rights of the individuals who are subscribing to the nomination will be safeguarded?

Mr. Dillon

When the Minister replies I will be glad if he will let us have a categorical answer to the point raised by the Leader of the Opposition. The Leader of the Opposition directed his attention to the fact that it was highly doubtful whether in fact or in law the Constitution had passed at all. That is a matter which we all would like to have cleared up one way or another. I do not know if the Minister's attention has been directed to the facts. The method whereby the Constitution was to be enacted or rejected was set out in two documents: (1) the body of the Constitution itself, and (2) the Act of this House which provided the machinery whereunder the Referendum was to be taken. In those two documents, one provision occurred which provided that no vote which had not upon its face a cross placed there by the voter was a valid vote. As we all know who attended the general election count, there were thousands of votes polled in the Constitution Referendum where, instead of a cross, the word "yes" or "no" appeared. In view of the Constitution itself and the Act providing for the Referendum, it would appear that those votes should have been rejected as spoiled votes. The legislation providing for the Referendum further required that, in order to pass, the Constitution must secure more than one-half of the total of the votes cast. The attention of the House is particularly directed to the fact that the expression was not "more than one-half of the total valid vote cast," which is the expression used in the ordinary Electoral Acts. The expression in this instance specifically referred to the total votes cast. Any vote issued by the returning officer and placed in the ballot box——

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy want this House to decide whether the Constitution has been passed or not? It is not a function of the Dáil to decide that matter.

Professor O'Sullivan

He is asking the Minister to take steps to find out.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy seemed to ask the House to judge.

Professor O'Sullivan

He asked whether the Minister would find out.

Mr. MacEntee

This is a matter which should be raised by special motion.

Mr. Dillon

If the Minister has subsided, may I go on?

Mr. MacEntee

Continue to misrepresent Monaghan.

Mr. Dillon

As I was saying, a distinction has to be drawn between the law applying to ordinary elections and the law applying to this particular referendum. I want the Minister to inquire or to consider whether all votes with "yes" or "no" written upon them, instead of a cross, should have been rejected. If, as a result of that, it emerges that the number of valid votes for the Constitution is less than one-half of the total votes cast, what is our position enacting legislation here to provide for the discharge of functions under a Constitution that is not operating in the country at all? If the House will reflect on the matter for a moment Deputies will realise that you have to ascertain all the valid votes for the Constitution, that is all the votes marked with a cross opposite the word "yes," to ascertain whether the Constitution passed or not. Every spoiled vote is, in effect, a vote against the Constitution. If the word "yes" was written on a ballot paper that is a spoiled vote. If the word "no" was written on a ballot paper it was similarly a spoiled vote, but under the law as fixed by the Referendum Act and the Constitution, although it is a spoiled vote, it operates as a vote against the Constitution.

Mr. MacEntee

I thought, a Chinn Comhairle, that you had ruled that this was not the place to decide this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

The House is not competent to give a decision in this matter.

Professor O'Sullivan

The Deputy is not asking the House to decide.

An Ceann Comhairle

It appears to the Chair that the Deputy was asking the House to decide whether the Constitution had been passed and whether the House should proceed with this legislation. The doubts which the Deputy has expressed should be cleared up elsewhere.

Mr. Dillon

I merely ask the Minister to consider the position in which the House finds itself. We are here presented with legislation providing for certain machinery and functions under an Act which is not in force. Has he considered that question before introducing this legislation? If he has considered it, can he tell the House that in the event of an unexpected decision, in regard to the Constitution, eventuating, what our position will be if we are presented with legislation to do certain things for which there is no constitutional provision at all? There may be an appropriate tribunal to deal with these questions but I think we can go too far in the matter of blindfolding ourselves when we are in the process of legislating. We ought to be informed if the Minister himself has considered what we are doing. If he has, and if he can give us any useful guidance, we shall be very glad to have it. We shall be not only glad but interested to hear it.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy ought to go to the proper tribunal.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Flinn)

I am rather puzzled to know why the whole atmosphere in the Bill is against the withdrawal of candidates. That idea seems to run right through it. Once a person has become a candidate he must go through with the election. I can quite see the possibility of persons being nominated who, on wiser consideration, might be induced to withdraw even before the election reached that stage in which the returning officer would be checking up the validity of the nominations. The next point to which I wish to call attention has reference to Clause 8, Section 1 (c), which provides that 25 members of the Oireachtas can nominate. I am rather inclined to think that at that particular time there will be no Seanad in existence. It may be possible that, with a definite time-table, you could have the Seanad elected, but inasmuch as the President will nominate a certain number of members of the Seanad, it does not seem to me possible that the Seanad would be complete.

Professor O'Sullivan

It is the Taoiseach nominates.

Mr. Flinn

Is it or is it not a fact that the Seanad will be in existence and that nominations will be by members of the Oireachtas, that is, of the Seanad and of the Dáil, or is it the fact that in the first election nominations will be confined to members of the Dáil? Then there is a rather curious provision in relation to nominations by local authorities. It says that they must be nominated by a resolution which in the case of county boroughs that have a city manager is apparently a function reserved to the elected members of the House, as distinct from the city manager. Then it goes on to say in sub-section (2) of Section 9 that no resolution proposing a candidate can be rescinded, that they must proceed with the nomination—in other words, that they "shall nominate."

There does not seem to be any machinery to enforce that "shall." Then there is provision number 7 in the same section, which says that if a county or county borough does put in two valid nominations, both shall be cancelled. In other words, as far as I can read the machinery at the moment, it provides for the nomination of candidates by, say, a county borough; it prevents the rescinding of that resolution when it is passed, and then the only machinery by which a council can get rid of a candidate they have already nominated is by nominating another. It seems to be peculiar machinery, and I should like to be sure I have not misread it.

In one of the clauses there is an instruction to the returning officer that he shall, in fact, inform every candidate that he has been properly nominated, but it goes on in Section 11, sub-section (3) to say that the obligation of the candidate to be present at this assessing of the validity of the nomination will not be voided by the fact that he has not received such notification. It seems to me that the only official knowledge that a man can have that he is a candidate is that official notification. In other words a man would be in a position to say: "I have no official knowledge that I am a candidate. I have no official knowledge that I have any locus standi at all.” That seems to me a small gap which might be filled. A point was raised by Deputy Cosgrave in relation to Section 14, where it says that it will be lawful—it does not say “obligatory”—for the returning officer, apparently at his complete discretion, to reject as invalid a nomination paper for some undefined incorrectness. That leaves it entirely at his discretion, and without apparently any guidance as to the substance of the incorrectness which would involve invalidity. It seems to me that there should be something put in that clause to say that it was an incorrectness of substance.

Mr. Linehan

On Section 9 I should like to have some information. In the case of a county council or a county borough council which has been abolished by the Minister—which is represented by a manager, and there is no elected body—I should like to know whether the manager in that county council area or county borough will have the right to nominate in the same way as an elected county council or borough council.

Mr. Esmonde

Might I, as a newcomer to this House, express an aspect of this Bill which I suggest should meet with the consideration of this House. It is an aspect of the matter which the leader of the Opposition has already dealt with. We have this Bill before the House now on its Second Reading, upon an admitted state of facts, when the Constitution has been enacted by this country, but in framing the rules for that Constitution I suggest that the serious consideration of this House should be directed to the fact that this is an important matter which will govern our future for a great many years to come, and that in the framing of those rules regard should be had to the fact that a very large number of the population of this country, being electors of this country, did not cast their vote for or against that Constitution. Therefore I say that we here, the members of this House, no matter to what Party we belong, are here in the nature of trustees, if I may put it that way, for the whole population, and while I think this Bill is only regarded perhaps as the rules of the Constitution I suggest to the House that it is more important than the Constitution itself. That is all I have to say.

Mr. Pattison

There is just one question which I should like to ask. It is in connection with counties where the Minister thought fit to abolish the councils, and there are Commissioners in operation. What would be the procedure there in regard to nomination? You have Waterford, Kilkenny, South Tipperary, Laoighise and other places.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

It is evident that the House regards this Bill as a matter of machinery, in which there is not a great deal of substance that could be argued. Therefore, Deputy Cosgrave and Deputy Dillon sought to bring us back to a debate on the big issue which has already been settled. The Constitution is settled as far as the country can settle it. In case Deputy Cosgrave or Deputy Dillon has any real doubt as to whether or not the Constitution has been passed, I would say it has. It has been definitely and clearly passed and accepted by the people. Having nothing to say on this Bill, they thought we should get back and discuss the Constitution issue again. Well, I suppose we will hear a lot for many days to come on that same issue, but no Deputy in the House will be able to say that the Constitution has not been passed. It has. I hope the Deputy is satisfied. This Bill being largely a question of machinery, we will be happy to give consideration to any useful or practical suggestion that will improve it, tighten it up, show us any loop-holes, or places where the machinery could be made more useful and made to work more smoothly.

On the question of the Register of Voters, and the point that names are on that Register which should not be there, while names which should have been put on the Register were omitted, those questions arise every time an election is held. They arise after every general election and every local election, and I really do not know that anything more can be done to improve the machinery. I should be glad of any suggestion which anybody has in mind that would help us to improve the machinery for making the Register perfect. It is not perfect. It never was perfect. I wonder if it ever will be? I hope it will. I had many complaints from people in my own constituency during the days of the general election. Perhaps I thought they were going to vote for me. They came into our committee rooms and pointed out that their names had been left off the register.

Mr. O'Brien

Too bad!

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Too bad. I could not do anything. There is machinery provided in every local authority, and I think the whole House may take it that although there might be a case here and there where an individual had a bias in some way or another I think it is a rare thing to keep a person off the register deliberately. Slips do occur, but deliberately to keep a person off the register is a rare thing. Likewise, people are left on the register who ought not to be there. There are also cases where one name might be on the list three or four times. Duplicates were not struck out when the proofs were being revised and, in the places where these three or four names were, where the repetition of one name occurred, other names should have appeared. That kind of thing happens and I do not think, as long as we are human and possibly until the end of time, that we will ever make what anyone would regard as the perfect register. I hope that we will get to that stage sometime, perhaps somebody will, but I do not think that in my lifetime I will ever see it.

If there is any suggestion that anyone can make, although we may not be able to deal with it in this Bill we will, however, note the suggestion and try to get it put into operation in connection with future electoral law so as to secure that registers in future will be more perfect than they have been in the past. The returning officer under this Bill, the man who will act, will be a civil servant, who is experienced in these matters, who has acted in a similar capacity before and in whom the whole House, I am satisfied, will have implicit trust. I take it that he, acting with a judge of the High Court, as his legal adviser and assessor, will take every precaution to see that no nomination paper is marked invalid unless, using his discretion—he will have discretion—there is something seriously wrong with such paper.

I would not be surprised that the same procedure will be adopted that is adopted by the candidates and the Returning Officer in Dublin City, where there is a very experienced and a very wise Returning Officer. I had experience oftentimes of having my nomination paper, whether for Parliamentary or municipal elections, submitted in advance to the Returning Officer, who would say in advance, unofficially, if it was valid or if there were any loopholes. That has been done by me or by my agents over and over again. I am sure the Returning Officer in this case will be available for consultation and advice by anybody wishing to fill up a nomination paper. At any rate, whoever is selected, he will always be a person of experience, prudence and wisdom, who will not act in an arbitrary way and who will not turn down a nomination paper merely because there was a figure left out or a comma was not put in the right place.

As regards a question raised about an ex-President nominating himself, that is settled for us by the Constitution and we cannot go back on that issue in discussions on this Bill.

Mr. Flinn

Might I ask whether a President who had been removed from office will be actually able to re-nominate himself?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

That is not set out in the Constitution.

Mr. Flinn

I wondered what the position was.

Mr. Brennan

Is it set out in the Constitution that a President who would be impeached cannot nominate himself?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

It is not.

Mr. Brennan

Then I think the Minister ought to provide some machinery to deal with that aspect. I do not think that the Minister is prevented from providing machinery.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

But is it not very unlikely?

Mr. Brennan

Nothing is unlikely.

Mr. Dillon

If any of the candidates we hear of is elected, I am sure it is unlikely.

Mr. Norton

Will the Minister give an assurance that such a person will not do it?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I will not.

Mr. Dillon

We would never impeach him, whatever else we would do.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I think it was Deputy Brennan raised the point about the claim of the Department of Finance to call for an examination of the accounts. That is in all these Electoral Acts, but it has never been used. It is there for the purpose of a safeguard, and to see that the moneys are properly spent, but the power given therein, so far as I remember, has never been used.

Mr. Brennan

I hope the Minister has not misunderstood me. What I endeavoured to point out was that if an inquiry was made, according to that section it would be referred to the person who would be himself responsible for the expense, that is, the County Registrar. That is my point.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

In some cases he is, but in most cases he is not.

Mr. Brennan

He is always going to be the person who will assess his own costs, according to that section.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I will have to look into that matter. I do not think there is any other point with which I could deal.

Professor O'Sullivan

There was one point raised by Deputy Cosgrave, in addition to those that the Minister has not dealt with, namely, the question of personating agents. It arises and gets increased importance in this way. The Minister may remember that we were frequently told that the occupant of this office was to be a non-political personage and that, as far as possible, even in the election itself, the whole thing would be raised above the level of sordid Party politics. I observe the Minister solemnly nodding his head at this as if he believed it.

Mr. Dillon

He should read Dublin Opinion.

Professor O'Sullivan

Does the Minister not think, unless there is some machinery provided by the State to prevent personation, that an ordinary individual can supply personating agents through the country? A great deal of this Bill, the Minister has said, deals with certain machinery. You cannot have any attempt of an approach to the alleged ideal that you have in mind if you are to depend on the individual himself to look after that. He will have to get a Party machine behind him to do it and then from the very start the election becomes political, and, as the President may be again a candidate, he must remain political during his period of office. I suggest that some method of State machinery should be provided, and it is more necessary than in the case of an ordinary Dáil election. There should be some method of State machinery to prevent personation and also, perhaps, to get the people to take some interest in the election.

Mr. T. Kelly

I should like to ask the Minister if the Corporation have a right to nominate? Will the City Manager also have the right to nominate?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

No, the elected body.

Mr. Davin

The Minister has not answered a very important point raised by Deputy Pattison, namely, what will be the authority under this Bill of a commissioner who, in reality, as everybody knows, is a nominee of the Minister's own Department in certain counties. I assert—and I hope I am not saying anything disrespectful when I do so—that the commissioner is not free from the influence of the Minister's Department and it would not be in keeping with democratic principles if the commissioner was to be allowed the same right as the county councils and the borough councils. The position should be made very clear. In my opinion, this power which it is proposed to give to county and borough councils should be removed altogether if the commissioner is to be put on the same footing as an existing county or borough council. You have the commissioner system in operation in several counties and the position should be made clear in regard to these men who are the Minister's nominees.

Mr. Brennan

There was another question put by Deputy Cosgrave. He asked for the estimated cost. Is the Minister really convinced that because the Constitution contains the right of an ex-President to nominate himself, that that precludes the Minister from putting in conditions to it, that it is unconditional and that the House cannot put any conditions to it? Is that the Minister's conviction?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

No, I did not say that. My own idea as regards the costs is that they will be considerable. I do not know that this will be quite as costly as a general election, but I do believe it will be a considerable cost on the large electorate. This is the first time such an election will have been held in this country and I have no estimate, but I know the cost will be considerable. The Bill proposes to give certain elected local authorities the power to nominate. For local purposes the commissioners are regarded as local authorities and, as the Bill stands, power to nominate would certainly be in the hands of commissioners. A commissioner acting as a commissioner of a county council could join in nomination with other bodies.

Mr. Norton

Are we to understand this: that if we had a situation where a person is a commissioner in a few county councils that he could exercise his right to nominate in a number of counties? Can a single representative, as the Bill stands—a person who is responsible to no one—exercise his right to nominate in two or more counties?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

That is the law as the Bill stands.

Mr. Norton

Is the Minister standing for that?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

No; a commissioner acting as the commissioner for a county is the county council of that county for all purposes. All the powers of the county council are handed over to the commissioner when he is appointed.

Mr. Davin

Surely that was never intended when commissioners were first appointed. They were appointed purely for administrative purposes and for no other. Giving one individual the right to speak for all the people in a county, or even in two counties, was never intended by the law.

Mr. Flinn

I understand that any amendment that is put forward on this Bill will be treated on its merits and from the point of view of improving the Bill. Therefore, it would be perfectly in order for any person from any portion of the House to put down an amendment to the Bill.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Quite so.

Mr. Norton

Is the Minister standing for a scheme whereby a commissioner would be allowed to exercise his right of nominating for one or more counties?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

The Deputy can put down an amendment.

Mr. Norton

I want to know what the Minister is standing for in this Bill?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

The Deputy would know that if he had read the Bill.

Mr. Norton

I have read it more carefully than the Minister. Here is a situation that may arise: A person may be nominated for the office of President. He may be of such a type as to commend him as a candidate to all parties in the country, but we may have a case where a commissioner exercising jurisdiction over say, four counties, where it would be possible for that commissioner, by his own action as commissioner functioning in these four counties, to cause an election contest to be sprung on the people where otherwise the election would be uncontested.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

No.

Mr. Norton

Why not?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

No commissioner has charge of four counties.

Mr. Norton

Not yet.

Mr. Bennett

Two commissioners acting together could do it.

Mr. Norton

Or we could get two, three or four commissioners acting together and causing what would normally be an uncontested election to be a contested election. That is supposed to be democracy.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Let me make one comment on that about democracy. Some of the gentlemen sitting there asked me to appoint commissioners.

Mr. Davin

That is intended for your humble servant?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Yes, if he wishes it.

Mr. Davin

Very well then, let us have it out.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will not allow it to be fought out on this Bill.

Mr. Davin

I agree that a commissioner has been appointed for purely administrative purposes, and it was never intended that he should act in a matter of this kind without consulting the people.

Professor O'Sullivan

The idea of nomination at all is that the people who are nominating do so in a representative capacity. The members of the Dáil have an elective representative capacity, and the same applies to the county councils. They have an elective capacity. Therefore it would be completely in accordance with the Bill for the Minister himself to make an amendment depriving the commissioners of that particular power.

Mr. Gorey

In view of the fact that a commissioner has the right to nominate himself, would the Minister introduce a clause fixing a deposit? This might prevent an individual from involving the country in considerable expense; unless he got, say, a certain percentage of the votes, he would lose his deposit.

Mr. Pattison

Would the Minister consider making an amendment that a former county council would have the right of nominating instead of the commissioner who is at the time performing the functions of that county council?

Professor O'Sullivan

I put one question to the Minister on the matter of personating agents, and he has not replied to it.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

There is at present machinery in existence through the Gárda Síochána. They are entitled to act as personating agents at present. I have seen them act as officials to prevent persons personating, and they do so act.

Professor O'Sullivan

Do I understand the Minister to say that the Gárda Síochána can prevent a person voting if that person is not legally entitled to a vote? Can the Gárda Síochána do that on their own initiative? Can they challenge a voter?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I have seen it done myself. I have seen members of the Gárda saying to persons: "You have been in here three or four times already, and if I see you in here again you will get into trouble." I have seen that happen.

Professor O'Sullivan

I am asking the Minister what is the law. Is a Gárda entitled to act as a personating agent and prevent personation?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

He has the right to arrest a person in respect of personating.

Professor O'Sullivan

Has he on his own initiative the right to suspect a person if the opposition is not initiated by somebody else?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

He has.

Professor O'Sullivan

That is news to me.

Mr. Linehan

One Guard, one presiding officer and one poll clerk could not possibly cope with the voters on a big register. Extra help should be provided in these polling booths and steps should be taken to prevent personation.

Mr. McGowan

If this election for President is supposed to be above Party politics would the Minister not now consider giving these individuals themselves the vote?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

No.

Question—"That the Bill be now read a Second Time"—put and agreed to.

Committee Stage fixed for Wednesday, the 20th October.

Mr. Davin

Are we to understand that there will be a free vote?

Mr. Costello

Yes, if the Government is sure that the Bill will pass on a free vote they will have a free vote; not otherwise.