Vol. 69 No. 15
I move:—
That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of such expenses as are necessary to carry into effect any Act of the present session to make further and better provision for regulating the conditions under which persons are employed in shops, to make provision for ensuring the payment of wages at fair rates to persons so employed, and to provide for other matters connected with the matters aforesaid.
How much does the Minister anticipate the expenses connected with this Bill will come to?
Apart from the administrative expenses that may fall on the Department of Industry and Commerce, which will not amount to a very considerable sum, the only expenditure that may arise will be in connection with the wages board, for the establishment of which the Bill makes provision. An outside estimate of the cost for the first year would be £4,000 or £5,000, diminishing as time goes on to a much smaller sum.
How many inspectors is it proposed to appoint?
I could not answer that question now. I should say it would depend on the extent to which the work of the existing organisation can be adapted, so as to enable them to cover the work that may arise under this Bill, as well as the work upon which they are at present engaged.
We understood the Minister to say on the last day that he was going to appoint inspectors, that they were to be inspectors under his Department. Is the proposal now that the existing shop inspectors in the employment of borought councils or other bodies of that sort would be employed under this measure?
No. The enforcement of this measure would be under the Department of Industry and Commerce.
Will there be new inspectors appointed?
Yes.
Can the Minister give us any idea of the number?
It may not be necessary to appoint any additional inspectors. There are a number of factory inspectors and other officers who can be utilised for this service. It is difficult to say to what extent their number will have to be added to in consequence of the duties that will arise under this Bill. I cannot say that there will be very many.
Does the Minister think that the factory inspectors will be able to do this work without any others being appointed?
Yes. This Bill sets out certain conditions of employment which are to operate. The enforcement of these conditions will not be entirely a matter for the Department of Industry and Commerce; it will be a matter for the persons concerned, a matter for organisations representing the persons concerned. During the discussion upon the Second Reading I mentioned that it was intended to effect such amendment in the Bill as to make it clear that any person could take proceedings to enforce the conditions which the Bill lays down. It is, in fact, anticipated that, in the ordinary course, aggrieved shop assistants will themselves move to secure their statutory rights when the Bill becomes law.
I understood there was a clause in the Bill empowering an inspector to make inquiries and ask questions, and I should like to know if it is proposed to dispose of that service.
The only thing the Bill sets out is that the Minister may prosecute for offences committed. Fearing that that might be regarded as restrictive, we are proposing to delete it. The Deputy may, perhaps, be mixing this Bill up with the Bill that relates to hourse of trading.
Section 8 gives certain powers to the inspectors.
To enter premises, and so forth. The actual prosecution for offences, the enforcement of the provisions of the Bill on employers and others who may be concerned, come within the terms of Section 6. I intimated, however, that it is intended that the actual enforcement of the provisions of the Bill with regard to prosecution for offences can be done by anybody, not merely the Minister, nor will it be primarily or solely the function of the Minister.
I understood that, under Section 8 of the Bill, an inspector may, for the purpose of enforcing its provisions, enter a shop and require the proprietor to give him certain information. The Minister says that that is in the Shops (Hours of Trading) Bill.
The question of the powers of entry and the powers devolving on the Gárda was raised here when that Bill was before the House.
Is it not intended to appoint an inspectorate under this Bill?
Yes.
How many?
There is an inspectorate there and they will be appointed inspectors for the purposes of this Bill.
We have one or we may have a thousand.
Resolution agreed to and reported.
