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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Dec 1937

Vol. 69 No. 16

Private Deputies' Business. Standard of Living—Abolition of Duties on Foodstuffs (Motion).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That the Dáil deplores the lowering of the standard of living of the community by Government action through the operation of taxes, levies, duties and like impositions on foodstuffs and other necessaries of life, and is of opinion that all such impositions should be forthwith abolished.

A considerable time has elapsed, owing to pressure of Government business, since we last debated this motion. Various opinions seem to have come from members of the House as to the reasons for the remarkable increase in the cost of living. Tariffs have been blamed for it; taxation and the various expenses which fall on the working community have been blamed, but I think the villain of the piece in this debate has been the Minister for Industry and Commerce. In 1932 he had a plan and, in pursuance of that plan, he embarked upon a remarkable scheme of tariffs or imports on almost every article that was imported into this country. In fact, the difficulty we had in arriving at any decision on this matter was to find the particular article that was not taxed. We must give the Minister, at any rate, the merit of honesty in carrying out his policy. He put a tariff on every article he could possibly think of and, if it was not effective in achieving its object as a protective tariff, it had, in his view, the merit of adding to the revenue of the country. The fact that we are at present collecting over £11,000,000 at the ports is an indication that, at any rate, the policy of high protective tariffs has not been as successful as was anticipated.

Again, the Minister for Industry and Commerce found it necessary in Cork to warn those industrialists who were not satisfied with a small profit. He found it necessary to warn them that they would be dealt with drastically. He tells us that "the greatest danger to the present industrial revival comes from a minority of manufacturers who are cashing in to an undue extent upon protection" He admits further that "the one thing that may produce a public reaction against the idea of developing our native industrial resources is any failure on the part of industrialists to give the public a fair deal" It must be the aim, he says, of our manufacturers to produce articles as good and as cheap as any that can be imported. That is practically an admission that the Control of Prices Bill has not been as effective as was anticipated. The very fact that the Minister thought it necessary to give that warning to industrialists was an admission on his part that the policy of protective tariffs had a tendency to increase prices and to increase them to an inordinate extent, beyond the capacity of the people to pay.

When questioned the other day, the Minister said that five licences had been given to boot manufacturers to come over here to manufacture boots and to take advantage of the protective tariffs which had been imposed for the benefit of industrialists in this country. I can remember paying a visit to Messrs. Dwyer's of Cork at the Lee Boot Factory, and there is no question at all about it, the Lee Boot Factory and the Hanover Factory are as efficient as you could make them. At that time they were of opinion that a tariff of 15 per cent. on boots would give a very powerful impetus to their industry. It was not the desire of such manufacturers to have a very drastic increase, as such an increase would bring industrialists from England to open here, and the fact that the Minister has given these five licences proves very conclusively that, under the policy of high protective tariffs, we are simply giving employment to foreigners instead of to our own nationals.

One thing the Minister for Industry and Commerce has been careful not to do, is to put a tariff on the raw materials for industry. He has not been as careful in that respect in regard to agriculture with the result that every form of implement connected with agriculture is highly tariffed. Manures, which are a very much needed adjunct to agriculture, have also been tariffed. So have feeding stuffs. In fact, a very large proportion of the needs of production for farmers has been tariffed with the inevitable result that they cannot produce at a profit without increased prices. Naturally, the competition of other countries in the agricultural sphere is able to keep these prices down. Therefore, the farmer is the one man who has not benefited in any way from protective tariffs while he is seriously affected by the material increase in the cost of living which has imposed such a blow on our community.

I have here a cutting from the Evening Herald headed “Soaring Cost of Living—Bonus Rise for Civil Servants.” The cutting states:—

"Higher and higher soars the cost of living. The index figure mounted 14 points in the mid-August period since 1935; 15 points in the mid-November period during the same time, according to tabulations issued last night. Smoked bacon advanced by 3/- per cwt. this week; best rashers now sell at 2/- per lb. in Dublin. It is an ill-wind that doesn't blow some body some good, and so

civil servants, in the light of the current mathematics, are to get a

bonus which works out at 2/6 per week on a basic salary of £4 per week. Since the mid-August tabulation this year, living costs soared seven points. Then the index was 170; in last night's official announcement 177 was the index for mid-November. Therefore, the average living cost for six months was 173½."

That, Sir, is the position with regard to civil servants. The same thing prevails with regard to those who are employed by local authorities, and local authorities have had very serious demands on their purse by almost every class of their employees for an increase in salaries based on the fact that the cost of living has materially gone up. We had an extraordinary position at the South Cork Board of Assistance, where a large number of persons were refused increases in salary, and the only man whose salary there was an attempt to increase was a wealthy landowner. He owns about half the village of Douglas and is the possessor of a licensed house. That man was paid £100 for cleaning the sewers of Douglas village, which, needless to say, he did not do himself, but employed a man to do. A suggestion to increase his salary by £10 a year was proposed by Deputy Corry and lost by my casting vote. I am very pleased to say that, because he was the only man whose salary it was suggested to increase. Those are people who are making that same demand based on the cost of living. It has not been denied by Deputies in this House that the cost of living has advanced. The only excuse, in their opinion, is that the standard of living has increased. That is a very debatable point. It certainly has not increased amongst the farming community, and I do not think it has increased amongst the agricultural labourers. Those two classes, at any rate, are suffering very severely from the disabilities and impositions that affect the agricultural community.

The South Cork Board of Public Assistance has had to increase its estimate for public assistance by £3,000, although the number of applicants for public assistance is down by 1,000. That is based entirely on the estimates of the superintendent assistance officers that the cost of living has gone up, and it required such an increase in the assistance in order to enable the poor to get even anything like a living out of the miserable pittance that is given under the administration of public assistance. That is a state of affairs which is not indicative of the high state of prosperity that is claimed for this country. The amount would probably be very much higher still were it not for the operation of the Unemployment Assistance Act, which has to a certain extent relieved the boards of public assistance, but the present condition of affairs has meant stronger demands on the estimates of those boards. As I said, the South Cork Board of Health have had to increase their estimates, although the number who are in receipt of public assistance is down by over 1,000. An amazing statement was made by a worker to myself, that the cost of living did not matter very much, because with every point of increase in the cost of living an increase in wages was demanded and obtained. If the increase in wages is going to keep pace with the increase in the cost of living, we are going to arrive at a stage when the workers themselves will be affected by that. They will be in the position of taking in each other's washing, and their natural all-round drift must of itself have some influence on the cost of living in this country.

One of the burdens to which I have to draw your attention, Sir, is the ever-increasing volume of rates. Deputy Brennan asked a question about the amount of rates collectible in the various county council areas all over the Irish Free State. The amount shows a very drastic rise. I think if the Minister for Local Government were here—because the amounts of the estimates for the county councils are mandatory and have to be passed whether they like it or not—he would probably admit that the rates are likely to go up more and more as time goes on. We were promised derating in 1932, but we did not get it, and we are still bearing the imposition of an ever-increasing rate on a partial system of taxation, that is a system of taxation based on the poor law valuation of agricultural land. Although we may get certain grades of relief, nevertheless that burden is ever-increasing as time goes on. That is the position in which the farmer is to-day. He is the largest section of the community. His purchasing power is very considerably reduced. I do not want to dwell too much on this point, because we have laboured it so much, but the penal tariffs deducted from his cattle exports have meant that a sum of £5,000,000 is taken off the price of his cattle. It means that those who are raisers of live stock have to bear the burden of the retention of the land annuities in this country; they have to bear the burden for those who do not raise cattle and export them. In other words, the man who sells new milk, and does not raise calves, is in the position that he is not bearing that burden to any great extent, except in so far as a few pigs or any other exportable produce he may raise are concerned.

It has become an ever-increasing difficulty for the farmer to pay his rates. In the Cork County Council— those county councillors who are present will bear me out—we have had to discontinue the services of rate collectors, and place the collection of the rates in the hands of an officer collector, who probably has more drastic powers than the ordinary rate collector. With regard to the labourers, we are building cottages for them, for which we are charging 1/- a week. We are not able to collect that 1/- a week. Four collectors, I think, were dispensed with on the proposal of Deputy Corry, and there were two of them who absolutely refused to go back. We have it here in the reports of the Cork Examiner, which I will not weary the House by reading, that those men would not accept their old positions, simply because they said they would have to resort to eviction if they did. On that account they refused to accept their positions back again. That is an indication as to what is the position of the labouring man.

Would the Deputy tell us about the four more who were kept on through his casting vote?

I will tell the Deputy that my casting vote prevented him from increasing the salary of a man who had £100 a year for clearing out the sewers in Douglas.

Perhaps the Deputy will allow me——

I was interrupted.

The Deputy will sit down. What happened at the Cork County Council or at the Cork Board of Health is not relevant to this motion.

I was asked a question by the Deputy.

The fact that Deputy Corry asked an irrelevant question is no reason why Deputy Brooke Brasier should make a reply.

Do you rule it out, Sir? That is all I want.

The Deputy's speech is all about Cork.

We are vitally affected by the increased cost of living in Cork.

We will give you a subsidy for growing buachaláin.

Deputy Corry will have to conduct himself, and allow Deputy Brooke Brasier to proceed.

We have been told that we have got beet and wheat, and I find Deputy Corry making an effort to get something decent for the farmers for the beet. We are very glad to see him making an effort in that direction. We have been offered 40/—these were points that were dealt with by the Minister for Agriculture the last day—and they are asking 45/-. Some years ago we got 52/6 a ton for it.

You would not grow it then.

No, I did not. At any rate, the position is this, that the Minister for Agriculture told us the other day that we got £2,000,000 for wheat. We are paying £5,000,000 to England by way of penal tariffs. The Minister did not tell us the acreage in regard to wheat and that two and a half or three barrels represent the average yield. The highest average yield in our neighbourhood is four and a half barrels. All that is supposed to be a welcome boon to the farmers of this country. They have to be content with that, although they have to pay out £5,000,000 as penal tariffs on cattle.

The Minister for Agriculture told us of the great prices we were getting for stock. Cattle from one to two years fetched £11 17s. 6d. in 1931, and this year in the corresponding period they fetched £8 16s. 0d. per head, or £3 per head less. Cattle two years old were quoted at £15 in 1931, and this year the price was £12 4s. 2d. We are thankful that the price did not fall more than £3 a head. What the Minister forgot to mention is that two years ago farmers were very glad to accept anything they could possibly get for their cattle. For two-years-old stock, as little as £2 10s. a head was given, and I am very thankful that conditions are not now so bad.

What were they like?

They were good Polled Angus cattle, two years old.

It is not rubbish, because I can bring evidence to bear it out. They were buying them two years ago at £2 10s. a head. The farmers had to get cash to meet the land annuities and rates, which were ever increasing. I know quite well what I am talking about, and I am not talking rubbish. Perhaps the Deputy who interrupted does not know what he is talking about.

Absolute rubbish.

The fact is that Deputy Brasier is quoting them too high. They were as low as 25/-, and Deputy Corry knows it.

When the farmers were killing calves under the Order of the Minister, you could buy them for 1/6. That state of affairs cannot go on. You have the workers affected. The purchasing power of the farmers has a powerful influence on the prosperity of the various country towns. If the farmer is not purchasing, the shopkeepers in country towns are poor. They are affected by the cost of living and the workers in the towns are affected. The rates are high and the cost of building is high and the cost of living generally has increased. We are told of the money that we get in the way of bounties and subsidies. Who are paying those bounties and subsidies? Is it not the people who have to bear the burden? The people have to pay every penny, and yet all these things are supposed to be a wonderful boon from the Government.

The one man who should have protected the people from the imposition of tariffs is the Minister for Agriculture. He is the man who is supposed to make agriculture his special care and who should have protected the people from the taxes which have been imposed, and the increases in various directions that have been put on the agricultural community. The labourers are unable to meet the demands made upon them. They cannot even pay 1/- a week rent. We have instances where the rent collectors are suspended, such as those whom Deputy Corry suspended. Their suspension is the surest indication that the people cannot bear the burden much longer when they cannot meet the sum of 1/- for the rent of their cottages.

The collectors could not be doing two jobs, distributing old clothes for you and collecting rents.

I think Deputy Corry was at one time a very stout supporter of the people who were giving old clothes. Is the country to be much longer in the toils of this policy of despair? As for the plan that Fianna Fáil said was going to bring prosperity, has that been carried out? We know there are cases where tariffs have worked. They have worked with reference to some of the tariffed industries of agriculture. The Minister referred to apples and tomatoes. There is a farm close to where I live. It never paid as a farm, but they started to put up glasshouses by the acre simply because there was a tariff put on tomatoes. It gave them a form of protection. They carried on a system of horticulture, every item of which was protected by tariffs. Tariffs have increased the cost of living, but in that instance they brought a certain amount of prosperity to the owner of that farm. He had the necessary capital to organise his horticultural industry and in that instance the tariff worked well.

Side by side with that instance of prosperity there is another case, also a short distance from where I live. It is the case of an unfortunate farmer who is worked to death because he could not pay the wage that Deputy Norton pitied the farmers for only being able to pay, that is, 24/- a week. In many cases the farmers were not able to meet 24/- a week. This man has a young family, and he had to get rid of a workman and carry on the work on the farm as well as he could. He had to pay a tax on artificial manures.

We had a case cited recently by the Irish Press where they tried to cast ridicule on a statement made by Deputy McGilligan. They say:

"Mr. McGilligan further declares that not merely is every branch of our live stock declining, but that even the soil is losing its fertility in consequence of being overworked as a result of Government policy and because of the inability of agriculturists to buy fertilisers."

They go on to say:

"As regards the number of live stock in the country, the statement is not correct. The true position is that the number of cattle in the country in June was higher than the average from 1922 to 1932."

Further down we see:

"When he talks of the fertility of the soil having declined in consequence of the tillage policy of the Government he simply betrays an abysmal ignorance of the subject. Every child attending a rural elementary school knows that the effect of tillage is to give heart to the land, to improve its condition, to call forth its latent qualities and to render it more capable of giving bountiful crops."

That is some of the stuff that a paper like that is trying to dope the farmers with. I live in a tillage district and I know that tillage without animal manure very quickly exhausts the soil. There is not a farmer here who does not know that. Farmers engaged in the dairying industry usually have sufficient stock to provide the necessary manure for tillage. We are not all like Deputy Corry, making £1,000 a year out of his farm. I think he informed the House some time ago that he makes £1,000 a year out of it. If he is able to do that, he should occupy the place now occupied by the Minister for Agriculture. I would very much like to know what his plan is. I believe that at the moment he is the unpaid Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture. I am sure we all hope he will occupy that bench soon, and perhaps then he will tell us how to make £1,000 a year out of the land.

When I am there I will teach the Deputy how to deal with the buachaláin on his land.

I use one of MacBride's thistle cutters every year, and I promise to lend it to the Deputy to cut the thistles on his farm. With regard to beet, 37/6 per ton, of which 7/6 goes for transport, is the price which is supposed to have replaced the lost cattle trade. Can anything make up for the lost cattle trade? Can that price at 37/6 from which 7/6 is deducted, make up for it? Why, two tons of mangolds would be better, and would sell at a much higher price. Yet that is the price which the Minister for Agriculture tells the farmers they ought to be so thankful for. He told me that I had got six months, but I assure him that there are farmers in the Free State, and a very large number of them, who would like to send the Minister for Agriculture to penal servitude for life.

I cannot sit down without referring to the leader of the Labour Party. His speech practically agreed, word for word, with the opinions of members on these benches. The only thing he said which did not agree with those views—and I was sorry to hear it— was that his Party intended to vote with the Government against this motion. Although his speech, as I read it, was in favour of the motion, he said to the Government Deputies: "Fianna Fáil, with all your faults, I love you still." We hope that that little alliance will continue.

And the Deputy's alliance with them last night.

I am not at all ashamed of anything I do, and if I vote with the Labour Party it is because I conscientiously believe I am right in doing so. I think it was Deputy Briscoe who drew attention to the price of the loaf. From the word "go" in 1932, the Government initiated the policy of growing wheat, and the farmers of the country stood up to that policy, but they were not getting the price owing to climatic conditions which the Government must surely have taken into consideration when they initiated that policy and when the operations of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs were called into play to urge the country to "Grow more wheat," even when that slogan went into a farmer's house, or a shop in Patrick Street.

That policy has been carried out by the farmers to their detriment and loss, and, while there was a time when we used to speak of the wealthy brewers' profits, to-day we have to speak of the wealthy millers' profits. Apparently price control has not been brought into play with regard to these. The miller's profits are growing more and more, but they are growing at the expense of the community and of the farmer, and the farmers are not getting a return for the wheat they grow. It is very much a seasonal crop. If the weather is favourable, they may get something like a fair crop, but more often than not, the season is dead against them. I have no hesitation in saying that with the majority of the seasons foul, either in the spring time or in the harvest time, and against the farmer, the farmer cannot get a reasonable return, and he cannot get a reasonable price, such as the County Cork grain growers asked from the Minister and which they probably would have got were it not for the intrusion of other people.

We have a right to demand that we get a reasonable price. There is apparently no control in respect of the flour millers or of the bakers either. In this country the cost of the loaf is 1/- and it has been pointed out that it is 8½d. in London. Deputy Briscoe said it was much better to have the price 1/- and that a man should be able to buy it, but the man in London is in employment and he is able to buy it at 8½d. and probably has something to spare for other things. So with the workers and every class of the community here, if they had not to bear the huge impost of the cost of living. Even if the Government are collecting £11,000,000 at the ports, the taking off of that £11,000,000 of taxation would make a very great difference. That sum represents £11,000,000 of inoperative protective tariffs. Surely they should be taken off, and we ask the Minister to do that.

The unemployed in 1932 numbered 80,000. To-day we are informed, through the medium of the Irish Trade Journal, that they are up to the 100,000 mark. That means that in spite of all the emigration, in spite of the huge plan of Fianna Fáil which was going to bring back the emigrants from other countries, put them to work here and provide them with an industry which would give them a living, the Government has failed. In spite of the huge emigration to England of whole families at present, the unemployed number 100,000. The Government policy has been a failure, and whether from the point of view of wheat, beet or the various industries that have been started, the unemployed have not been reduced in numbers but have been increased. Every tariff on implements, every tariff on manures, on feeding stuffs, and every other disability which the farmer labours under—in spite of the £2,000,000 for wheat-is overborne by the £5,000,000 penal tariffs on the cattle and the big bonus to the coal industry. These are things for which the Government has to answer. It is true that we got the halved annuity, but that annuity was halved on the condition that the Government got the other half, and I do not think we are very thankful for it. If we are to have any reduction in the number of unemployed, if we are to live in this country of ours, we must ask the Government to reduce all these imposts which are causing, as has been admitted on the other side, the increase in the cost of living.

Speaking on this motion quite recently Deputy Dillon (in volume 69, column 560) quoted the late Minister for Agriculture. He said that the late Deputy Hogan, when introducing a tariff on bacon, said:

"I am introducing this tariff in order to satisfy the cods in this country. It is a god of a tariff; it will do no good."

If ever there was a cod of a motion introduced into this House, it is the one before the House at the moment, and whatever doubts we might have had in our minds as to the sincerity of the motives which inspired the Deputies to table this motion, these doubts have been dispelled after listening to the speech which has just been delivered. One would imagine, judging by the arguments from the Opposition Benches, that the cost of living had increased enormously during the past five years, due to the imposition of tariffs by the Government.

They were very careful to refrain, as far as possible, from a comparison of the cost of living with the cost of living even during the years of the Cosgrave Administration when the figure was lowest. Whenever they did make reference to these figures, they were careful to select figures which would give an untrue picture of the situation. It has been said that you can prove anything with figures and, to a certain extent, that is true. It is very easy to give a false impression of the cost of living by selecting certain figures which, in themselves, may be correct but the use of which may be misleading. It is easy to select the month of one year when the cost of living was at its peak and to select a month in another year when the cost of living was at its lowest and, by thus drawing an untrue comparison, to create a false impression in the minds of the people. A fair comparison would be the average cost-of-living figures for any two years. I propose to take be the average cost-of-living figures for any two years. I propose to take the figure for the lowest year of the Cosgrave Administration and the latest figure available.

Nobody will dispute that the cost of living, during the period of office of the former Administration, was at its lowest in 1931. In that year, according to the Statistical Abstract for 1937, the index figure was 92. In 1936, the figure was 91. Although there has been an undoubted increase in the cost-of-living index figure during the past few years, it has not yet reached even the lowest figure attained during the Cosgrave régime. Deputies were very careful, when speaking from the Opposition Benches, to refrain from pointing out that there had been a fall in the cost-of-living figure after this Government came into office. Speaking on this motion, as reported in volume 69, page 1211, Deputy Cosgrave said that the consumption of bacon had been considerably reduced. He said that, notwithstanding the bad times during his Administration, there was consumed in this country a total of 825,844 cwts. of bacon. That was in the year 1931. Then he goes on to say:

"What was consumed in 1935? The total consumption in that year was 613,000 cwts. The consumption is down by a quarter."

So far so good. In the year 1929-30 the number of pigs consumed in this country was 482,000. In the year 1934-35 the number consumed was 806,000. The number of cattle consumed in 1929-30 was 122,000. In 1934-35 the number consumed was 211,000. That shows an increase in the number of pigs consumed of 324,000 and of cattle 89,000.

The greyhounds eat some of them.

The number of sheep and lambs has gone up from 504,000 in 1929-30 to 536,000 in 1934-5. Deputy Cosgrave was very careful not to mention these figures. The Deputy who has just sat down said that it was impossible to carry on tillage properly as the number of cattle had seriously decreased—as compared, we must assume, with the numbers here during the Cosgrave Administration. In 1931 the total number of cattle was 4,029,084, and in 1936 the number was 4,014,035, a decrease of roughly 15,000 in a total of over 4,000,000. There have been greater falls than that even in two consecutive years during the Cosgrave Administration, but the Deputy was very careful to abstain from any reference to those.

As regards the increase in the cost of living, that operates in both ways. I admit that an increase in the cost of living hits the consumer, but it does not at all follow that an increase in prices which brings about an increase in the cost of living does not benefit the producer—and the principal producer in this country is the agriculturist. In the Trade Journal for September, 1937, page 199, there is given a list of figures showing the variation in the prices of a number of commodities produced by the farmers. I shall mention but a few. Taking the year 1932 and comparing it with 1936-7, oats increased by 20.4 per cent.; barley by 28.8 per cent.; store cattle of 9 to 12 months by 51.5 per cent., of 12 to 15 months by 45.7 per cent.; fat cattle of 15 months to 2 years, 8.4 per cent., sheep 43.3 per cent., and so on down along the line over a list of approximately 40 different commodities. That explains, to some extent, the increase which has taken place during the past few years. I merely cite that to show that while an increase may affect the industrial worker, on the other hand, it brings a benefit to the agricultural producer.

The previous speaker said that as a result of the imposition of tariffs there had been a tremendous increase in the cost of living. The actual increase in the price of goods produced in this country since 1931 has been only 2.1 per cent. If the arguments of the Opposition are true, the increase should be reflected, for instance, in the savings of the people. In page 155 of the Statistical Abstract we find the approximate number of accounts in the Post Office Savings Bank to the 31st December in each year from 1929 to 1935. The number of accounts active in 1931 was 174, and in 1935, 215. Coming to the business of the Post Office Savings Bank in each calendar year, the figures being in thousands, the number of accounts opened in 1929 was 41,852, in 1931 39,120, and in 1935 48,510. The balances due to depositors in the Trustee Savings Banks at 20th May and 20th November in each year, 1928 to 1936, disclose that on the 20th May, 1931, the total amount was £1,194,049, and on the 20th November, 1936, £1,910,769, and so on for the various items showing the deposits of the people. The same is true of insurance. There has been a considerable advance, both in the number of policies issued and the sums assured during the same period. Turning to the number of judgments, bankruptcies, etc., the same holds good. Instead of the depression and poverty that the speeches of the Opposition would lead us to believe is there, the indications seem to point to progress in the right direction. Proceedings in bankruptcy in the High Court of Justice in each legal year 1931-32 to 1935-36 show that debtors' summonses issued in 1931 numbered 84, and in 1935-36 the figures had fallen to 77. Petitions of bankruptcy filed in 1931-32 numbered 51, and in 1935-36, 48. Arrangement petitions field in 1931-32 numbered 112, and fell to 61 in 1935-36. It may be said that the increased cost of living to which reference has been made was confined exclusively to this country. Far from that being the case, as Deputies well know, if they would only be honest enough to admit it, there has been, during the past few years, an increase in the cost of living in most countries, just as there was a decrease from 1931 onwards. After reaching the lowest stage in the slump, the cost of living figure has been mounting for the past few years. For instance, in Great Britain, where wages are so high, according to the spokesman of the Opposition the cost of living is low. According to the statistics the price of beef in Great Britain in 1931 was 1/3¾d. per lb. and in 1937 1/2½d.

What kind of beef?

Ordinary beef.

Argentine beef?

No; the figures refer to fresh beef. In 1931 the price of beef in this country was 1/2¼, and in 1937, ½ per lb. The price of mutton in Great Britain in 1931 was 1/5¼, and in 1937, 1/4½. The price of mutton here in 1931 was 1/2½, and in 1937, ½. The price of bacon here in 1931 was 1/3½, and in 1937, 1/8¼ per lb. In Great Britain the price of bacon in 1931 was 11d., and in 1937, ?. The price of flour here in 1931 was 1/7¾ per stone, and in 1937, 2/9¼. In Great Britain the price of flour in 1931 was 1/10. and in 1937, 2/8½. The price of sugar here in 1931 was 3¼d. per lb., and in 1937, 3¼d. In Great Britain the price was 2½d. in 1931, and the same price in 1937. I have quoted figures that are for and against me.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary quote the price of Irish bacon in this country and in Great Britain at a particular period during the last year?

I have quoted the price of bacon. These are the only figures I have.

It would be interesting to have them for a particular period.

Has the Deputy got them?

The Parliamentary Secretary has the whole of the Civil Service at his disposal, and he has the figures if he wants to give them.

I asked the Deputy if he had them for that, particular period.

The Deputy will have an opportunity of replying when I have finished.

The Parliamentary Secretary would not quote figures that are against him.

I have certainly quoted figures that are against me.

What about the price of Irish butter here and in Great Britain?

I will give the Deputy the price of butter. In 1931 the price of butter in Great Britain was 1/4½ per lb., and in 1937, 1/3¾. The price of butter here in 1931 was 1/3¼, and in 1937, ?. The price to-day is ?.

For what period are you quoting 1/3¼ for butter?

That is the average figure.

For this year? The Parliamentary Secretary knows that the price of butter was brought down during the general election.

The Parliamentary Secretary should be allowed to make his statement.

The price is lower now than it was during the general election period.

The price came down while the people were voting.

That is no help to you.

I know something about it.

The Labour Party was to bring down prices.

Unlike Deputy Davin's leader, I quoted figures that are against me. The Deputy quoted figures to suit the case he was making, because he chose the highest figures he could get for 1937 and compared them with the lowest figures he could find for 1931.

What was the price of butter in January of this year in Great Britain and what was the price here? The Parliamentary Secretary does not know his job if he cannot quote these figures.

The Parliamentary Secretary should be allowed to make his case in his own way.

Deputy Davin has the same sources of information at his disposal as I have in these matters. As I stated before, the Deputy will have an opportunity of making his case when I am finished.

I am entitled to get all the information that the Parliamentary Secretary has, if he will give it to me.

I am giving all the information that I have at my disposal at the moment. I now come to another spokesman of the Party opposite. Deputy Professor O'Sullivan is reported in the Sunday Independent of the 5th instant as having stated at a meeting in the County Kerry “that the Government are making bread, tea and sugar dearer, and that follows directly from Government policy.” Deputy O'Sullivan was particularly unfortunate in selecting these three items. I propose giving a quotation from the Irish Trade Journal for September, 1937, page 189. In the period August, 1936, to August, 1937, the increase in the price of bread is shown as 5.5 per cent.; in the case of sugar a decrease of 8.3 per cent. is shown, and of tea a decrease of 10.2 per cent. is shown. So much for that argument. There have been so many futile arguments used by the Opposition in the debate on this motion that I think it would weary the House if I were to quote any more figures to refute them. Everybody knows that there is nothing in their arguments, and that this motion was put down from purely political motives: for propaganda purposes, to try to make as many people as they can believe their statements. They probably have come to the conclusion that they have only to repeat these fairy tales often enough to get people to believe them.

For every fact that I have stated, I have given the reference in practically every instance. If there is any Deputy who wants to check up my statements he can do so by looking up the references I have given and find out for himself whether I have quoted correctly or not. Suffice to say that the cost of living, which has shown a tendency to increase during the past few years, has not yet reached even to the lowest figures that it was at during the previous Administration. The last Administration could not prevent the collapse in prices which followed from 1929 after the financial crash in America, and, later, in England. They could not prevent the drop in the price of commodities. They were as powerless to prevent the catastrophic drop in prices which ensued at that time as the present Government is to prevent a slight increase in the cost of living. Their panacea for all the ills of this country is to remove all the tariffs that have been imposed, and thus throw out the many thousands of people who are in remunerative employment at the present time. In the Trade Journal, from which I have quoted, it has been shown that the industrial output during the past five years has been increased by approximately 36 per cent., giving employment to large numbers of people. If this country were to change its Government at this moment and to pursue a policy such as that outlined by the speakers from the Opposition Benches—to reverse engines—thus throwing out the large numbers of people who have found permanent employment in the new industries established by this Government, it would be a disaster of the greatest magnitude.

The Opposition tell us that we have only to get rid of the tariffs imposed, but I have shown that the net result of the imposition of these tariffs has been to increase the cost of the various commodities manufactured here by 2.1 per cent. Is it worth making the sacrifice for the sake of a reduction in the prices of these commodities of 2.1 per cent., thereby throwing out of work thousands and thousands of people to add to the large numbers at present unemployed? Incidentally, the last speaker made a comparison between the numbers in 1932 and 1936, but he was very careful to refrain from pointing out that the whole basis upon which these statistics are founded has been, altered since the change of government, and that until this Government came into power it was impossible to give a true indication of the numbers unemployed. That is not so now, because since the change of government accurate records are being kept. I do not intend to detain the House further. I think the motion that has been tabled is, as I said at the outset, pure nonsense, and has been put down for purely political and propaganda purposes.

The members of this Party, without any inspiration from any source except their own reading of the motion, have decided to oppose and vote against it. I am personally of the opinion—an opinion which is shared by my colleagues—that the passing and putting into effect of the motion would create a first class financial crisis in this State. Whatever we may do, either here or outside this House, we certainly are not going to be a party to creating a crisis of that kind in the country. I am amazed that a man of the intelligence of Deputy McGilligan should put his name to this motion. I have long been of the opinion that he is one of the ablest men who has ever been a member of this House. Whatever one may think of his policy or political outlook, it must be conceded that he understands the meaning of the motion. He must know perfectly well that the abolition of the taxes, levies and duties which the motion calls for would create a first class financial crisis. I can understand political opponents of the Government using a type of propaganda calculated to destroy them politically, but I cannot understand the mentality of intelligent men who will allow themselves to be carried so far that, instead of attempting to destroy their political opponents, they will attempt to destroy their country—the State itself— which they are here to protect and safeguard.

Deputy Morrissey's name is also to the motion, and he to a lesser extent understands the meaning of it. It seems to me that the motion is one which must have been drafted in the offices of the Fine Gael Party and not in the Party's room in this House by the responsible and intelligent people who are the leaders of that Party. As the Parliamentary Secretary has pointed out, this motion, if passed, would have the immediate effect of destroying some of the first class industries established in this State not only by the Fianna Fáil Party since they came into office, but some of them by their predecessors.

I wonder what effect would the abolition of all taxes, levies and duties have on the future of the sugar-beet industry. Would Deputy Brooke Brasier take responsibility for abolishing those levies and duties and thereby wipe out the beet factory in Mallow? If the Deputy decided to take a decision of that kind, then I think he should be held answerable to the people who sent him here. He admitted at the close of his speech that there were some industries—he did not enumerate them—which were worth preserving. I think that all the first class key industries established either by the last Administration or the present one, industries for which we have the raw material ourselves, are worth preserving for any Government that may be in office in this country. It is surely the duty of the representatives of the people, irrespective of party, to see that such industries are preserved, and that no steps are taken to endanger their position. Would Deputy O'Leary, for instance, as a practical farmer, be prepared to take responsibility for the abolition of the subsidy that has been voted continuously for some years for the maintenance of the dairying industry, which gives very valuable employment? I speak with some knowledge of this matter, because I happened to be a member of a body for some time which was set up in connection with the Stabilisation of Prices Act. Apart from that, I come from a constituency which has benefited very much as a result of that, and I certainly would not vote for the abolition of a subsidy which has meant the maintenance of that industry in the last few years and which, as Deputy O'Leary knows very well, could not have been maintained without the subsidy. I know, and Deputy O'Leary knows, that if we had to sell our Irish creamery butter at the world market price, the price of milk would have dropped by 2½d. a gallon.

I never advocated anything except to give an open market to the farmers.

How long would the Deputy say the dairy industry in this country would survive if the farmers had to sell their milk at a drop in price like that?

Give them an open market.

When will the Deputy run down?

At any rate, the Deputy never ran away.

I have had the honour to represent my constituency in this House since 1922, and I have always recognised that you cannot provide a living wage for the workers in the various industries unless you give them some help, and I admit that bounties or subsidies must be provided. I qualify that by saying that it is not worth subsidising an industry to the amount of £1,000 or £1,000,000 unless you provide a proper price for the farmer, and I say that the beet scheme does not give the beet grower a proper price for his beet. I have some little information with regard to that. I am not familiar with the actual work done in connection with the cutting of beet and so on, but I say that the present price is not an economic price for the beet grower, and if either Party in this House wants to put these industries on their feet properly, a sufficient bounty should be given to enable the farmer to get a proper price for his milk, his beet, his wheat or any other commodity the farmer produces. I remember well being present at a meeting of farmers and workers held in Athy when I was one of those appointed to go over to Belgium in 1924 in connection with this question of beet growing. I travelled out there with people who represented different points of view at that time, and I came to the conclusion that the beet industry was worth establishing and was deserving of a subsidy, and I saw that if a subsidy was worth while in Belgium it was well worth while here in order to induce the farmers here to change their methods of farming.

Did you not hear the Minister for Finance in this House saying that the Carlow Beet Factory was a white elephant?

Yes, I was here when the distinguished Minister said something of the kind, but he has changed his mind since that and has established three additional sugar beet factories.

If the Deputy's information is all founded on that, it is very erroneous.

The Minister referred to the sugar beet industry in some such terms.

I referred to the Carlow factory which, at the time, was costing £400,000 a year, and the people were getting nothing out of it.

What I am referring to is not knowledge that is peculiar to myself. We know that the farmers, shortly after the Carlow beet factory was established, were very slow to take advantage of the 52/- per ton that was offered at that period. When they found, however, that their neighbours next door realised that there was a profit to be got out of it, then there was a scramble amongst the farmers to get more acreage; and I am very sorry to say to my friend Deputy O'Leary that the Cumann na nGaedheal Government at the time had not the courage to establish the three additional factories that have been since established by Fianna Fáil.

We had too much common sense to do that.

I do not agree with that. I believe that Deputy O'Leary was one of the people, in the old Sinn Féin days, who advocated the establishment of industries for the supply of everything we require in this country.

Yes, at a proper price.

I am quite certain that the Deputy subscribed to that policy, and I believe that many people who at that time advocated the policy did not care about the price, realising, as I realised, that this country has unlimited resources.

What about the farm labourer getting 24/- a week? What can he buy, with a wage like that?

I was absent, unfortunately, from this House when Deputy Dillon opposed an Order for the establishment of a tariff on the clothing industry. I read with amazement the speech he made at that time, and I dare say it was just as well for myself and for Deputy Dillon that I was not in the House when he made that speech. He represented a certain industry, which I believe is a very great industry and is mainly Irish because the people who have put their money into it are mainly Irish, as being controlled from outside, and he referred to the company concerned in the terms of the people who provided the technical advice. The company concerned is a purely Irish concern and I am glad to say that, although Deputy Dillon tried to misrepresent it, four-fifths of the capital has been found in the constituency I have the honour to represent, and from the rest of the country the capital was over-subscribed six times. Yet Deputy Dillon came along with an attack on that company which he knew perfectly well to be incorrect. If Deputy Dillon and his colleagues had their way, they would wipe our that industry and throw out of employment the people who are getting very valuable employment in there at the present time.

What about the 10/- extra——?

I am glad to say that the promoters of this industry have agreed to pay trade union wages. That will waken up some of the exploiters in the same industry who live in Deputy O'Leary's part of the country.

The Cork people are honest.

The Deputy must cease interrupting.

He is looking for interruptions, so far as I can see. Why does he not address the Chair, if he wants to speak to the House?

I was addressing the Chair until Deputy O'Leary took my attention from your very pleasant face. I am only human, and I was tempted to reply to the silly interruptions and interjections of the Deputy, which I hope he will not repeat.

The Deputy should not be so easily drawn.

I am not sure whether Deputy O'Leary has yet honoured the House with a speech for or against this motion, but if he would pluck up the courage, and he is very courageous, I would ask him when speaking to this motion to say whether he read the speeches made by his leader during the recent general election.

I did, and the speech of your leader, too.

I am glad to be able to inform the Deputy that neither my leader nor any of the Labour candidates at the last general election said they would give a vote in this House which would abolish the valuable industries established with the assistance of State protection.

That statement is not correct.

I challenge you to disprove it.

If the Ceann Comhairle permits me to reply, I will reply.

The Deputy has been replying for the past half-hour.

The Ceann Comhairle cut me short.

I want to remind the Deputy that his leader during the last general election, and particularly during the closing period of the campaign, gave a definite public assurance that if he and his Party were returned to office he would not change the position from the industrial point of view. Do you deny that?

I do not, but we would not allow them to take 25 per cent. out of industry; we would give them a fair profit.

They gave an assurance that if returned to power they would maintain the industries established by their predecessors and that there would be no quick change in the industrial policy of the country. Having given that assurance, I cannot understand why some spokesmen in this House can sponsor a motion of this kind.

You were not here and did not hear the whole of the discussion.

I paid very close attention to the speeches made by the Fine Gael leaders at the last general election, and previous ones, too.

You cannot have it both ways.

The Deputy will have his opportunity. I am sure we will be all delighted to hear him, even a second time, explaining why they have changed their attitude on the question of the establishment and maintenance of industries in this country. We are not influenced in our attitude in this matter either by the leader writers of the Irish Independent or the Irish Press or by the viewpoint either of Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael. I am not by any means enthusiastic about sharing responsibility for the government of this country—I sympathise with those who will have the responsibility in the future—but if Labour were given the responsibility for the government of the country to-morrow, it would not certainly be so silly as to sponsor a policy of this kind. I believe I am correct in stating that the people who are backing this motion by their speeches in this House would not do so either if they were faced with the responsibility of government. They would have to honour the promise made to the people at the last election and maintain the key industries established in this country, not by foreigners, but by Irishmen, with Irish brains and Irish hands. There is £5,000,000 of Irish money in the new industries, and for that reason we are bound to give them every protection.

I would not let them rob the people, as they are doing according to the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

We have given support, and will continue to give support to the Government to carry out their industrial policy and to establish where possible other industries which will give employment. We certainly disagree—and this is purely a matter of administration—with the failure to exercise effective control over the prices of some of the articles manufactured in this country under the new conditions.

I would not allow them to rob the people.

Deputy O'Leary should not constrain the Chair to take action.

Then I will leave the House.

I maintain that you cannot have protection in a country without effective control over the prices of the manufactured articles. I do not think that this Government have exercised the powers they have under the Control of Prices Act to keep prices at a reasonable level. We have a Prices Commission inquiring into complaints made by the public or complaints passed on to them by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. It does not require a genius or a body of supermen to find out whether prices are unfair or excessive, or not. If I were a member of the Prices Commission and wanted to find out whether the prices of children's boots or ladies' shoes were excessive, I would go to the retailer and find out the prices there and then go to the factory and see where the difference came in. It is easy to find out, without a long-drawn inquiry, what is the price charged by the manufacturer to the retailer, and as a result of that, whether the middleman is getting too much out of it.

We see some people who have established boot industries in this country paying 25 per cent. on their ordinary shares. I say that there is something radically wrong there on account of the prices generally charged to the community, especially for children's boots. The same thing applies to clothing. Then we have the glaring example of the Prices Commission, after a long-drawn-out inquiry, the production of books and documents, and evidence tendered on oath by witnesses, including the flour millers, submitting a report that the price of flour was excessive at a certain period, and the Minister for Industry and Commerce saying in this House that he did not agree with the report submitted by his own commission, and that that was his justification for taking no action.

You are going to pay your compliments over here now.

I would be pleased if by what I say I could induce Deputy Kelly to make a speech on this matter. I want to say deliberately that I would never be a party to voting for a motion of this kind calling for the abolition of taxes, levies and duties on foodstuffs and other necessaries of life, on everything, in fact, and which, when put into operation, would in my opinion create a first-class financial crisis in this State. Neither myself nor the members of my Party are going to be a party to any such resolution, even though it is put down for the purpose of trapping the members of the Labour Party.

There has been such a spate of oratory let loose in the House——

The Deputy might move the adjournment of the debate.

I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned until Friday.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, December 16th.
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