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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Jul 1938

Vol. 72 No. 3

Committee on Finance. Financial Motions. - Motion No. 1—Income-Tax.

I move:—

(1) That where the owner of any securities sells or transfers the right to receive any particular interest payable (whether before or after such sale or transfer) in respect of the said securities without selling or transferring the said securities, then and in every such case, subject to such qualifications, exemptions, reliefs, and other provisions as may be prescribed by statute, the said interest shall, for all the purposes of the Income-Tax Acts, be deemed to be the income of the said owner or, where he is not the beneficial owner of the said securities, of the person beneficially entitled to the said securities, and in either case shall, where appropriate, be chargeable to tax under Case VI of Schedule D of the Income-Tax Act, 1918.

(2) That this Resolution shall have effect in relation to every year of assessment which began before the 6th day of April, 1938, as well as every year of assessment beginning on or after that date.

In the Budget speech I intimated that it would be necessary for me to move this Resolution, which arises out of a decision recently given in the courts of England. A case has not yet arisen here, but, lest it should, it is necessary for us to declare that the law is what it has always been assumed to be. In the English case to which I have referred, the holder of certain foreign bonds sold the interest coupons whilst retaining the bonds themselves, and it was held that the proceeds of the sale were not the income of the holder of the bonds. If a loophole similar to that which is created in the English law by the English decision were to be allowed to be made in our law, Irish holders of foreign bonds would have a ready means of evading income-tax by selling the coupons to a foreign purchaser instead of cashing the coupons through an Irish Bank, and the holder of such securities would escape both income-tax and surtax on the proceeds of such sale. The device could be used in the case of interest payable on English or Irish securities from which tax is not deductible at the source, as in the case of our own National Loans. This legislation which we propose provides that the proceeds of the sale of the right to receive interest by the holder of the securities shall be assessed under Clause VI of Schedule D as the income of the holder or the beneficial owner.

The Minister certainly has not made clear to me what kind of transaction is involved. Do I understand that he is endeavouring to meet a case where a person has some interest coming to him from stocks or shares and for one or two or ten years offers the interest he gets on these to some other person for a consideration?

I think the Deputy has not got the point quite fully.

I should like the Minister to give us, in explicit terms, an imaginary deal showing the kind of case he has in mind, and I should also like to ask him what is likely to be involved, how much money is likely to be at stake in this country, in a transaction of that particular kind.

My voice may not have carried, but I did try to make this case quite clear. Assume that the holder of certain bonds, the interest on which is paid by way of redemption of a coupon, sold the interest coupon, while retaining the bonds themselves, and that a decision was given here in our courts on the same lines as has already been given in England—that the proceeds of such sale were not to be regarded as the income of the holder of the bonds, the position is that we wish to make it quite clear that the law here is what we have always assumed it to be—that where the interest coupons have been sold, the proceeds of the sale are to be regarded as the income of the bond holder and that they are assessable to income-tax. I cannot say exactly what the amount of money involved is, but it may be a considerable sum, varying from year to year. I have not any doubt that, on the same reading of the law as in Great Britain, it would be assumed that the proceeds of this sale would not be regarded as the income of the holder and, accordingly, this income would in fact escape tax. The purpose of the resolution is to prevent that occurring.

Could the Minister give us any idea as to what the circumstances are that would induce a person to sell such an interest? Is it for the purpose of saving money, or for the purpose of avoiding a probable loss?

One does not know the circumstances, but, quite clearly, if by selling the interest coupons, a person could escape income-tax, I think there would be a very substantial inducement for the holder of such coupons to sell them.

Could the Minister say if there is a difference in the rate at which income tax would be charged on the interest coupons and the rate that would be charged if income-tax were charged on the amount of money the person receives for the coupons?

A person will be charged on the proceeds of the sale of the coupons. That will depend upon the terms upon which he sells them.

Questions put and agreed to.

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