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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Mar 1939

Vol. 74 No. 10

Housing (Amendment) Bill, 1939—Committee and Final Stages.

Section I agreed to.
SECTION II.
Sub-section (1) of section 5 of the Principal Act is hereby amended in the following respects and the said section shall be construed and have effect accordingly, that is to say:-
(d) by the insertion at the end of said sub-section (1) of the following new paragraph in lieu of paragraph (k) (which was inserted in the said sub-section (1) by paragraph (b) of sub-section (1) of section 2 of the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) (Amendment) (No. 2) Act, 1936 (No. 27 of 1936),) that is to say:—
"(k) to any person or public utility society erecting one or more houses to which this sub-section applies in an urban area a grant not exceeding £45, if—
(i) the erection of such house shall have been commenced on or after the 1st day of July, 1936, but before the 1st day of June, 1938, and shall have been completed on or after the 1st day of April, 1937, but before the 1st day of April, 1939; and
Amendment No. 1 not moved.

I move amendment No. 2:—

In paragraph (d) (k) (i), line 18, to delete the words and figures "but before the 1st day of June, 1938".

The Bill as it stands means that in order to become qualified for a grant a house would not only have to be completed before the 1st April, 1939, but would have to be begun before the 1st June, 1938. That leaves a period of ten months. My submission is that a house that is begun in September, and completed in April, is as good as a house begun in May. In view of the fact that the Minister is stopping grants finally to urban building by the 1st April, 1939, it does seem quite unnecessary to put down this period of ten months before that date.

I observe that the Minister is moving an amendment to delete "June" and make the beginning date the 1st September. If that amendment is accepted it means that a house completed by the 1st April, 1939, must have been begun more than seven months before that date in order to qualify for the grant. I submit that is putting in a piece of red tape, or green tape, or at any rate something that is really unnecessary. It means that if the building of a house is begun on the 28th August and completed by the following 1st of April it is going to get a grant, but that if begun on the 2nd September it is not. I know a company in the City of Dublin which is doing a very valuable thing at the present time by building a large number of houses for renting. Anybody who is engaged in that work in the City of Dublin is rendering to the city a very great social service. The corporation is supplying a certain number of houses, but only a fraction of the houses that there is a demand for. You have a class of person who is able to buy a house but will not if he can get one to rent. You have also a very important section of the community who cannot get a house except they can get one to rent. The number of houses that can be got to rent is very limited. It is most desirable, if houses can be built in five months, that we would encourage the machinery for building to speed itself up so that houses may be begun and finished inside five months. The suggestion in the Minister's amendment is that people who are speedy in doing their work have to be penalised in one way or another.

I ask the Minister to consider my amendment favourably even as against his own. If my amendment is accepted it will take out June and put in no block as to the time the building of a house is begun. The Minister has complete control over the situation because he can deny a grant to a house, even though it is completed from the builder's point of view by the 1st April, except he is satisfied in every respect that the house is satisfactorily finished and is worthy of a grant. I submit that if a house is begun by the end of September, or even the beginning of October and is satisfactorily completed by the end of March, and particularly by a company that has been rendering a considerable amount of service in the way of building houses for renting, that all that should weigh very strongly with the Minister, and that no red tape, or green tape, considerations about the beginning or finishing dates should be allowed, especially in view of the fact that the Minister is now winding up the whole question of grants for urban houses. I plead with the Minister to accept my amendment as against his own.

I am sorry that I cannot accept the amendment. I have listened to appeals made here in the House if not by Deputy Mulcahy then by a number of his colleagues, and as a result of them I have brought in this amending Bill. The appeals made to me have come principally from the Opposition Benches, and as a result of them I have extended considerably the period over which grants will be made. As a result of the appeals made to me on the Second Reading of this Bill I have agreed to still further extend the time, and I want to say now that I do not propose to go beyond the month of September set out in my amendment.

During the past couple of years it was announced very clearly by me in this House—I did it more than once or twice—that these urban grants would cease. Therefore, good notice was given to everybody concerned. We have twice extended the period, so that nobody building a house in the last 12 or 18 months can come forward now and say that they had any notion that grants in urban areas would be available, certainly not in Dublin, beyond the period that was originally fixed. These companies—the Deputy referred to one, and possibly I know the same company that he has in mind —and other companies have come to me and asked me to extend the date. One company said that the amendment I had already brought this Bill in to get implementation for was of no value and, though it did mean a considerable amount of money to that company, money they did not expect, they of course asked for more. Perhaps it is the usual policy. Other companies that build a great deal more houses said they were thankful for what they got, thankful to get money they did not expect to get, but they would like to get more, of course.

Considering the notice that was given more than two years ago, and considering the extensions that have been granted in this Bill and previously, and the date originally fixed for the cessation of these grants in urban areas, I think we have done well by these companies. As regards the houses the Deputy says could be built if June were eliminated and no date put in, these people are building the houses. Some of them have projected the houses, some are building the houses and some of them are almost completed, but none of them had an expectation of getting a shilling grant of this kind. It is practically throwing money away, and there is no necessity for such generosity by the Dáil at the taxpayers' expense. These houses that were contemplated have been built, or are in course of construction, on the understanding that no grant was available. They are getting a lot of money now that they never thought they would get, and they should be well satisfied.

Might I, with the permission of the Chair, ask the Minister to consider all these amendments, because they are all dealing with the same thing?

Amendments Nos. 3, 4 and 5 suggest deleting "1st day of June, 1938," and substituting other words and figures. As soon as Deputy Dockrell moves amendment No. 3 the Chair will put the question, "That the words `1st day of June, 1938,' proposed to be deleted, stand." On that question being negatived the alternatives in Nos. 3, 4 and 5 could be put successively if Deputy Belton is not satisfied that No. 5 meets No. 4.

If we are allowed, with your permission, to have a discussion over them all, we might come to agreement on them. The Minister seems very definite——

If the House agrees to cover the whole section the Chair is content.

They are different phases of the same thing and the greater includes the less, and if the less is knocked out there is very little chance for the greater to stand. With your permission, perhaps we will be allowed to review them all. The Minister, in reply to Deputy Mulcahy, would not agree. I take it that apparently he is not prepared to give the same facilities in the urban areas as he has extended to the rural. That is what one of Deputy Dockrell's and of my amendments amounts to. Can the Minister not see his way to concede that? Deputy Mulcahy then suggested having the 1st June as the commencing date varied to the 1st September. Is not that the position? I suggest this to the Minister. Would he not accept, by way of amendment, a house started before 1st October, or on or before 30th September, and go to the end of September instead of the beginning, and let the limit of the 30th April stand?

It is easy to see the Deputy is a farmer.

The Deputy has many irons in the fire, as the Minister knows, and I hope he does not think anything less of the Deputy for that.

No, not at all.

No; I am sure of that.

The Deputy is out to make a good bargain.

The Minister is not suggesting I am making a bargain for myself?

The number of houses that would be affected in a case like that I do not believe would be a dozen. I would suggest to the Minister that in the case of any houses started before 1st October, no matter when they are completed, he ought to extend the grant. I do not see any point at all in fixing the 1st September. It is better than the 1st June, I admit, but I think the Minister should amend this sub-section to read like this. Instead of the 1st June he should put in the 1st October, or alternatively, on or before 30th September, and let all the rest in the section stand. It is only changing it by a month. Will the Minister accept that? I think from the attitude the Minister has taken up, which I regret, all the amendments that are here can go by the board if the Minister will accept the 1st October instead of the 1st September.

Does the Deputy speak for all his colleagues?

I must say I would be very grateful if the Minister, instead of making it a compulsory seven months' period, will reduce it to the six months.

Righto. The 30th September—will that satisfy you?

It will. We are getting on very nicely.

Houses started on or before 30th September? Make it on or before 1st October, 1938.

I have said 30th September.

All right. It is a very tight measure when you clip off one day.

Amendment No. 2, by leave, withdrawn.

That is the best we can get out of him.

Amendment No. 3 not moved.

As well as changing the month to September, the Minister, I understand, is going to move to change the 1st to the 30th?

That is right.

Amendment No. 4 not moved.

As regards amendment No. 5, I propose there to add the words "the 30th day of September, 1938."

Will the Minister insist on a date for completion—is that material?

That is material. They might never be completed if you had not some day.

But consider the weather you have had since then.

Mr. Brodrick

And the winter coming on.

It must be started to get the grant.

You have done very well.

A little more would make it a lot better.

Amendments Nos. 6, 7 and 8 not moved.
Question proposed: "That Section 2, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

There has been a certain amount of doubt in the house-building industry as to what exactly the situation is going to be with regard to grants, rates remission, and so on, and the fact that the Minister said, when dealing with the Second Reading of the Bill, that he proposed introducing a Housing Bill in the autumn, seems to have carried over the same type of uncertainty in the building industry in the City of Dublin as to some extent existed previously. I should like to ask the Minister to be as clear as possible as to what his future intentions are. This section as it stands means that there will be no grants given in urban towns for houses not completed before the 1st April. After the 1st April, 1939, we have no expectation, as far as this Bill goes, of any grants for houses built in urban districts with the exception as I understand of grants to certain public utility societies building flats of some kind or another. If there is any idea in the Minister's mind that he might change that position under the Housing Bill to be introduced in the autumn, I think it would be most desirable if he gave some indication to the building industry as to what his intentions are. If his intention is not to give grants in future for houses built in urban districts, then I think it would be useful at any rate to the building industry to be told that definitely now, so that builders could look to their future plans with some kind of a clear mind. In addition to that, I should like the Minister to tell us clearly the circumstances in which grants are going to be continued to persons building flats in urban districts, and whether there is any intention of extending these concessions to persons who will be building houses for renting in urban districts or in large centres like Dublin and Cork.

Would it not be better to await the Minister's reply on the Fifth Stage?

It really arises out of Section 2. It may be that some questions will have to be asked after hearing the Minister's reply, and we could deal with them more satisfactorily if the Minister would speak now. If the Minister is not prepared to deal with the matter, then of course we can wait until the Fifth Stage.

To a certain extent, I can clear the Deputy's mind, and the mind of anybody else interested, by saying, as I said the other day, that I expect a Bill will be necessary in the autumn. If so, it will be a Bill to ask the Dáil to give further financial assistance to carry out the present policy on housing as set out in the 1932 Act, and the other Acts which have been brought in each year since to implement it financially. There is one change in the policy outlined in the Act of 1932, and that is with respect to grants in urban areas. These grants have been withdrawn. They have been withdrawn, as I said earlier, speaking on these amendments, after due notice had been given. There were so many requests to me to extend the time that the time has been extended now on two occasions, but, so far as I can speak now, without having even the draft heads of a Bill submitted to the Government, as is the usual procedure before a Bill is brought in here, there is no present intention to restore the grants in urban areas. That is the position. The other grants, as set out in the Act of 1932 and in the Acts which have been introduced each year since to implement that Principal Act, will continue to be available.

So that, in fact, the new Housing Bill will be for the purpose of getting the necessary finances for continuing the Housing Acts, as amended by this Act, and these grants to private persons for houses built in urban areas will definitely cease after the 1st April next?

Will the cessation of grants extend to rural areas?

No. As I have said, my present intention would be to continue the grants in rural areas. That is my intention, but, as Deputy Mulcahy will appreciate, before any Bill is brought in here, its principles have to be submitted to the Government. It might happen that the Government would decide to make further changes. I cannot say anything on that, but as the housing policy stands at present, my intention, at any rate, is to continue that housing policy as outlined in the Act of 1932 and the supplementary Acts passed since to implement it financially. My intention is to continue that policy minus the one item in regard to grants in urban areas. The other grants will be continued.

Is there any intention, under your present policy, of continuing the remission of rates?

Two-thirds for seven years?

We shall be discussing that to-morrow or the next day.

There is no use, then, in raising it now.

Question put and agreed to.
Amendment No. 9 ruled out of order.
Sections 3 to 5 inclusive, the Schedule and the Title ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported with amendments.

If the House has no objection, I should like to have the remaining stages taken now.

Agreed.

Bill received for final consideration and passed.

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