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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 Mar 1939

Vol. 74 No. 14

Private Deputies' Business. - Defence Force Regulation 69—Motion of Disapproval.

I move:—

"That the Dáil disapproves of Defence Force Regulation 69 of 1938."

I should like, before going into details, to point out that, quite obviously, this is a non-political motion. It is a motion that does not apply to, or emanate from, one political Party any more than another. It is a motion dealing with the rates of pay for certain professional officers in the Army. The Army is the Army of the Parliament, not the Army of either one Party or the other, not even the Army of the Government. The officers and soldiers of the Army are prohibited from making their case or ventilating their grievances in the public Press. They are prohibited from approaching Deputies. They are prohibited from taking any normal steps to have grievances or injustices, real or imaginary, brought to the attention of the general public or Deputies in the Dáil.

That being so I should like to ask the Minister, before we proceed further, if he would allow this question to be decided on its merits and to be adjudicated upon by a free Dáil, if he will leave the particular point at issue to be decided by a Dáil without shackles, by Deputies without any Whip, in other words, if he will leave it to a free vote. May I take his silence as an affirmative or a negative answer?

I shall deal with the point when I am replying.

The Minister cannot make up his mind whether it is fair, just and reasonable to have the pay of officers in the Army decided by a free vote of the Dáil or whether it is preferable, in the interests of silent gagged services, to have a regulation, which affects them adversely, decided by a shackled Dáil, with an assured majority and that majority not allowed the right to decide between right and wrong. There are some occasions when a Parliament that claims to be a free Parliament of a free people, should, in fact, be a free Parliament and if ever there is an occasion when Parliament should be free, it is when we are discussing the conditions of service of officers and men who are prohibited from calling any attention to their grievances. I think it is asking nothing unreasonable to suggest that the case, such as it is, should be decided on its merits and not decided by the crack of Deputy Briscoe's whip or the whip of anybody else.

This particular regulation adversely affecting the interests of every professional officer in the Army was put through with the most remarkable secrecy of any regulation from any Governmental Department I ever heard of. This particular regulation cutting the pay of medical officers, dental officers, legal officers and other officers by amounts varying from £2 to £9 a week was issued like a bolt from the blue on the 1st of December last. A month or six weeks subsequent to that date no member of the public and no Deputy of Dáil Eireann could succeed in procuring a copy of that regulation. The Government Publicity Department were, day after day, asked in vain for a copy of this regulation. Government publications are supposed to be available and for sale to the public, but the public could not get a copy of that regulation. The officers here in Dáil Eireann could not procure a copy of it up to a fortnight ago.

When an organisation of professional men, representing the interests of the affected officers, tried to procure copies of the regulations and put up a question requiring answers as to how these regulations affected the officers in the various ranks, even the Department of Defence itself could not produce a copy of the parent regulation and wrote as late as yesterday to say that it was out of print and that it would take some months before a copy would be available. The regulation itself was put through in such haste, with such a lack of consideration and in such a petty pique that you have the extraordinary state of affairs that if an officer is promoted from the rank of second lieutenant to first lieutenant his pay is actually reduced. That in itself is evidence of the amount of departmental consideration this regulation got. It is a regulation which was considered in a rage and conceived in pique. That is sufficient evidence of the consideration this regulation received from the Minister or his staff or any responsible civil servant in the Department.

The Minister's attention has not perhaps already been called to it, but he will find if he looks at the rate of pay of a second lieutenant five years in that rank, that that man, after two years' promotion to the rank of first lieutenant, actually has his pay reduced. Is there any further evidence required as to the hasty, ill-considered way in which this regulation was drawn up? Why this hasty decision, this dishonouring of contracts, interfering with the published conditions of service? The first thing, on the face of it shows a lack of consideration for the years of service. Next to that is the lack of consideration for human beings who have got to suffer under this petty tyranny.

What does it all amount to? I guarantee that there are not two Deputies in Dáil Eireann who understand what is the meaning of these regulations, because every precaution was taken to ensure that neither Deputies nor the public could by any process become aware of the injustice that was being carried out. It was because the executive of the Medical Union happened not to see eye to eye with the Minister when he was considering that regulation. Here, in a word, is what the regulation amounts to: The pay of Army medical officers, legal officers, and other professional men entering the Army was fixed many years ago, not by the Department of Defence, not by men in uniform, not by the chiefs of this particular service, but by what was called an Army Pay Commission, with two representatives of the Department of Finance, the Army Finance Officer, the Minister for Defence, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Defence, and three military members of the Army Council. By that mixed body, fairly representative of the Department of Finance, the civilian side of the Department of Defence, and the military commanders of the Army, the rates of pay for all ranks, including the ranks referred to in this particular order, were fixed. Those rates of pay were advertised and published in the medical colleges, in the law schools, and in the dental hospitals. Parents with sons qualified or about to become qualified saw there, in black and white, what the rates of pay for a doctor entering the Army would be, and what the rates of pay would be after two years or after five years— promotion to the rank of captain, or to the rank of commandant, and so on. There was a definite contract between the State and the citizen that these were to be the conditions in that service. Those were the rates that that man could look forward to if he made good and secured promotion. Those rates held there through one, two, three, four, five and six Governments. They were approved of by this Parliament year after year for nearly 20 years. They were approved of by the Minister for Defence for seven long years, year after year.

Then, what happened to make those rates unjust, to make them unfair? Merely that there was another scheme governing the pensions introduced by the Minister. The conditions of that scheme, in so far as they affected the doctors, were adversely criticised by the leaders of the medical profession. The answer to that adverse criticism was the answer of a bully who went to his office, disembowelled the medical rates of pay in the Army, and issued his ukase like a bombshell to decent young and middle-aged officers who had given 20 years of unequalled service to a half-dozen Governments of different political hues.

This regulation was issued to these officers and the result of the regulation was as follows: the rate of pay for a lieutenant is reduced by £1 11s. 6d. a week. The maximum rate of pay for a lieutenant when read as against the new rate after five years' service in that rank shows a reduction of £1 11s. 6d. per week. At a time when it is generally admitted that the cost of living is going up, and the cost of rearing a family is going up, the most junior rank, the lowest officer rank in the service, is reduced by that much per week, not per month or per year, but per week. The rate of pay of the next rank of junior officer is reduced by £3 13s. 6d. per week. The commandant is reduced by £5 15s. 6d. per week. In the next rank, the highest rank in the Army Medical Service, that of major, the rate of pay is reduced by £7 1s. 6d. a week, or more than £1 per day. The rate of pay for the major holding the rank of D.M.S., the dream of every young doctor joining the Army, is reduced by no less a sum than £9 1s. 6d. per week.

Is it unreasonable, when that is being done to people who served us only too well, to ask that if that is to be done under Parliament, that it will be a free Parliament will decide on its justice or injustice, a free Parliament, a Parliament without shackles, a Parliament not just voting like cattle driven through a gate; but a Parliament of human beings voting on conditions that affect fellow-human beings with the same rights as you and I have? Is it fair that these conditions should be imposed on officers in our Army when a neighbouring army, the army of Great Britain, is increasing its inducements day after day and, even as things were, getting the cream of the medical profession and our Army getting the next best; when their inducements were going up so much that in a matter of ten years the rates of pay for every medical rank doubled? Not being satisfied with having doubled the rates of pay there was a new inducement introduced—that after five years' service a doctor would get a lump sum of £1,000, whether he stayed or left, just a refresher, a sweetener, an extra inducement to get Irish doctors. There are also communications here at the moment in every Irish medical school to know what extra inducements they can offer in order to get the cream of the young medical men of this country.

The man responsible for the efficiency and for the type and quality that constitute the Irish Army can do nothing better to induce the cream of the professional men of this country into his Army than this insulting regulation, a regulation offering lower terms for professional men and lower ranks for professional men than any white army in the world. Is it not a proud thing for the nation that used to be called a nation of scholars that the value we place on our scholars is the lowest standard in any white country in the world? That is the mentality behind the £10,000,000 demand—a £10,000,000 demand and a tuppeny-ha'penny mentality; that is the mentality that is to handle the £10,000,000—that kind of mentality which is aimed at recruiting the worst.

At the new rates of pay I have no doubt that the Ministers will get doctors. He will get the dregs and the duds of the medical profession, and only the dregs and the duds, the men who have sunk so low that they do not mind being professional blacklegs, being regarded as blacklegs inside and outside the Irish Army. He will get them. He will get the witless loon who, through accident, got qualified and could not earn a living outside the institution created by our Minister for Defence. He will get that type without a doubt. That is the type of professional man that is going to treat the sick and wounded Irish heroes. That is the type of professional man who is going to treat the poor soldier when he is sick, the soldier's family, and the officer and the soldier when injured and wounded. That is the highest we can aim at, the standard of the Crimea, the standard of every army up to 20 or 25 years ago, a medical standard under which in every war more people went down with dirt, lice, and disease than went down through enemy action. That is where we are going to begin in this country —where other armies gave up 50 years ago.

If the Minister has no experience, no knowledge, no insight of his own, can he not learn the lesson that every army in the world has learned, that in peace or war, if you are to think of the comfort and welfare of the soldier, the first way to think of the welfare and comfort of the soldier is to give the soldier confidence in the man who treats him when sick and wounded, and to get the best. All modern armies are competing for the best, and we, who produce and export more doctors even than the mighty country beside us, are making a present of the best. Any man who wants a service life has either to accept the despicable treatment of a bully and to brand himself as a blackleg, or go to serve in a foreign army. This comes from the Minister who boasted that under his régime he would attract back to Erin the exiled sons from abroad. He is the greatest exporter of flesh and blood that this country has seen in our time. As I say, the one thing that is inexcusable about it is that it is done out of pique against men he cannot hit. But he hits their professional brethren, men who by law must remain silent, men who by law must continue to serve under those conditions.

The Minister may say that these are the rates for the new entrants, that these are the rates for the men coming in afterwards, and that he is not interfering with the rates of men already serving. The men already serving were induced to serve and have served for 15 years at a certain rate. We will say a lieutenant had served at a certain rate with a maximum pay of 25/- per day, and that after 17 years' service he was entitled to hope that some day he would be a captain, and that the rate of pay for the captain would be as it was—35/- per day. If that man is promoted to-morrow after 17 years in the rank of lieutenant, and takes the new rate of pay, he will actually draw less than he is drawing at the moment.

If the captain serving at the moment —the most highly efficient man, we will say, that any Army ever saw—is promoted, not only to commandant, but over the rank of commandant to major, and he accepts the new rates of pay, the reward for being so efficient that he is being promoted two ranks up is that his pay is reduced. Men and their wives and their families do not live on the pips on an officer's shoulder; they live on his earnings; and with regard to serving officers, this Order has ensured that, no matter what promotion they get, even to the very highest rank in the service, they cannot increase their bank accounts by one ha'penny a year. That is the justice and those are the standards of 1939. That is the act of a Christian Government in a Christian country— that frothy hypocrisy that was poured over this country by the biggest humbug of all. Let men's Christianity be judged by their acts. Any non-Christian, any two-legged human barbarian, would be ashamed to be guilty of what the Minister is guilty in this Order.

I had occasion to ask the Minister within the last few months—never anticipating anything of this kind—how many promotions were made from the rank of captain to higher rank in the Army Medical Service in the last 14 years, and the answer was "Nil." I asked him how many promotions from lieutenant up in the ranks of Army dentists had been made in the last 14 years, and the answer was "Nil." There were no promotions, from junior rank up, for either doctors or dentists for a span of 14 years, and those men were entitled to live in hopes that some day, in some way, they would be promoted.

Now, after those 14 years of the most excmplary service, an Order is brought in to ensure that if they do get promotion, no matter how much, or no matter how rapid, or no matter how high, they cannot earn an extra ha'penny for their families. And those men are to go through their service, like professional men, doomed for all time, no matter how excellent they are, to a rate of 25/- a day. Those men were foolish enough to trust in a Minister. They were foolish enough to have faith in the honour of a contract. They were foolish enough to marry and to take on added responsibilities, saying to themselves: "We are in Government service; the conditions of service will not be altered for us." What do they find? They find that their confidence was misplaced, that their trust was trampled on, that their efficient service was ignored— that there was a bully in the saddle who, because their professional colleagues outside happened to give offence, could say that he had his heel on their necks and that they were going to suffer for the acts of others. And we have that from a Christian Government for a Christian country!

Imagine in any walk of life—whether the Civil Service, the postal service, or any big industry—if people were attracted into that business or into that service because of certain conditions and certain rates of pay published and advertised, and as soon as they were in for 15 years, a manager would be in a position to say: "You cannot go except I let you go; you cannot get out even if you want to." Imagine that happening after 15 years—the whole conditions knocked sky-high by an act of the manager, the whole basis undermined and conditions laid down so that, if the humblest man were promoted to the highest position, he could not get an increase of pay—would not an act such as that breed, produce, and command revolution in any country? Yet, that is the headline that is set here in Ireland's Army, and that is the headline and that is the conduct that the Parliament of this country is asked to approve of.

It may not be popular, in the broad sense, to be talking of the salaries of professional men. Professional men, however, are entitled to a fair deal. They are entitled to have their contract honoured and to have the conditions that induced them in retained, just as much as anybody else, and the fact that there are only 30 or 36 of them should not matter to Parliament. It should be equal in our eyes if there were only four of them; but the policy there is to count heads, and if there are few heads, hit them—they are not dangerous—but if there are many heads, be nice to them. That is the policy. That is the policy we are asked to approve of. I say this, and I say it with knowledge, that when we are talking about these men we are not just talking about ordinary doctors. Once upon a time, as a result of a debate in this House, as a result of some criticisms in this House, I had occasion to ask for the academic distinctions and degrees held by the doctors and dentists of the Army Medical Service. At that time there were some 70 in the service, and I found that, with three exceptions, 67 of those men were first class exhibitionists, gold medallists, and men with post-graduate degrees. You had a class of men there of a quality unequalled in this country congregated together in that service, and you had it so because men entering that service were sent into the service by representatives of the different medical schools and hospitals, and they would only put forward the best man for the one vacancy. You had doctors and dentists of unequalled merit and exceptional ability, with a record of success and achievement behind them. The Minister, out of that 70, passed what I would not hesitate to call the best 28—the best 28 of an excellent 70—and those men, I know, have done their work as well and as excellently, under this Minister, as under any predecessor. And the gratitude they get, and the return they get, is that an order comes now that says: "Thus far shall you go and no further. No matter what promotion you get, there will be no extra pay; no matter how difficult you are finding it to live with a family growing up, no extra pay; no matter how exceptional or meritorious your service may have been, you can never, while you remain in this Army, get any increase in your pay, notwithstanding how much your rank has been increased, and you cannot get out until I am pleased to let you out."

I asked the Minister when moving this motion if he would leave this particular matter to be decided by a free vote of the Parliament, seeing that the Army cannot engage in propaganda, cannot ventilate their case, cannot approach Deputies, and is the Army of the whole Parliament. The Minister would not make up his mind then, but he made it up quick enough when it was a case of striking a blow. He cannot make it up equally quickly to meet a just case, and to give fair play. Perhaps, now that the Minister has had some time to consider, not as to what is the best course—because that will not weigh with the Minister— but as to what is the wisest course politically, he will give a reply. I am anxious to hear from the Minister what consideration this Order got, or how he expects to get efficient doctors, dentists and legal men under these conditions? How does he expect to compete with any other army, or with the attractions of civilian life under these conditions, except to accept what is staring him in the face under the new conditions, that he is going to get, if he gets any, only the very worst. Is it fair play to Irish officers, to Irish soldiers, and to the families of Irish officers and Irish soldiers, that when they are ill, or when they are wounded, they will be treated professionally only by the very worst elements of the Irish medical profession?

I beg formally to second the motion.

Deputy O'Higgins, in the course of his eloquent remarks, said that I brought in this regulation fixing the scales of pay for professional men in the Army in a fit of pique, and out of hatred for certain members of the medical profession who claimed to represent that profession. I want to make it quite clear, at the beginning, that I have the greatest admiration and every respect for men who take up the care of the sick as a vocation. I have the greatest possible respect for the present officers of the Army Medical Service. As to the profession generally, a very big number of my best personal friends belong to that honourable profession, and a very big number of my own personal relations as well, and, far from having any hatred of the medical profession, I have the greatest regard in the world for it.

The question I should like to put to Deputy O'Higgins, or to any other Deputy, is this: If the rates for medical and other professional men in the Army are not fair, having regard to the other rates of pay within the Army, and the general scales of pay and allowances throughout the country, I would like to know what are fair rates of pay? I did not go to the trouble of taking down all Deputy O'Higgins's adjectives or the terms in which he compared the new rates of pay, but he called it an insulting regulation. I think that was about the mildest adjective used by the Deputy, and we will take it at that— that it is an insulting regulation. For the information of Deputies who may not have read this insulting regulation, I have a number of copies of a document here, in which, first of all, we set out the rates of pay that existed heretofore for medical members of the Defence forces, and for engineering members of the Defence forces. The second table is a statement showing the present rates in the British Army for infantry, medical and engineering officers, and the third table shows the present rates of pay. I will ask the usher to give copies of this table to Deputies, and I will give a copy for insertion in the Official Debates.

The following is the table:—

MEMORANDUM.

DEFENCE FORCE REGULATION 69 OF 1938.

TABLE I.

RANK

OLD RATES—DEFENCE FORCES

Infantry

Medical

Per cent. of Medical Rate above Regimental Rate

Per cent. of Medical Rate above Engineer Rate

Engineers

£

£

%

%

£

Colonel

511-584

Major

438-511

1,000

96

66

529-602

Comdt.

365-438

675-858

96

74

420-493

Captain

256-329

475-639

94

67

310-383

Lieut.

183-256

219-456

78

56

219-292

2/Lieut.

146-183

183-219

TABLE II.

PRESENT RATES—BRITISH ARMY

£

£

%

%

£

Colonel

909

998-1,040

Major

520-611

620-891

46

28

575-694

Comdt.

Captain

347-429

447-535

25

12

380-477

Lieut.

216-346

362

5

5*

237-380

2/Lieut.

183-216

204-249

*% below

TABLE III

PRESENT RATES—DEFENCE FORCES

£

£

%

%

£

Colonel

511-584

631-704

20

6

591-664

Major

438-511

558-631

23

7

518-591

Comdt.

365-438

485-558

27

8

445-518

Captain

256-329

376-449

36

10

336-409

Lieut.

183-256

303-376

47

12

263-336

2/Lieut.

146-183

296-333

82

18

246-283

The revised rates, as far as medical officers are concerned, apply only to new entrants and new promotions. The figures given do not represent the total emoluments paid to officers. Take, for instance, a new entrant to the medical service. On entry, he will be commissioned as a second lieutenant and will be entitled to £296 a year in addition to the following allowances in cash or in kind:—

£

Lodging, fuel and light allowance

64

Uniform allowance

20

Ration allowance

32

Total

116

His total emoluments, therefore, during his first year of service will be £412. It is intended that all new entrants will be promoted first lieutenants on the completion of one year's satisfactory service, so that in his second year he will receive £429. If he marries after three years' satisfactory service, he will be entitled to £340 a year pay plus the following allowances:—

£

Lodging, fuel and light allowance

127

Uniform allowance

20

Ration allowance

32

Total

179

Hence, after three years' satisfactory service, a medical officer even under the revised rates, will be entitled to emoluments in cash or in kind to the extent of, approximately, £519 a year. Taking the old rates of pay in the Defence forces, and taking one rank right through for the sake of convenience, if Deputies compare the position of a captain in our infantry, medical service, and engineers, under the old rates, they will find that a medical captain got twice as much pay as a captain in the infantry, that, in fact, he got practically as much or more pay than a colonel in the infantry, and that he was 67 per cent. in excess of the pay given to an engineer. An engineering officer has also to go through the university for a number of years, yet under the old rates of pay, the medical officer got 67 per cent. more than his brother, the engineering officer. If you look at the British Army, and take their present rates, it will be found that a medical captain only got 25 per cent. of an addition more than the infantry captain, whereas in our Army the medical captain got twice as much as the infantry captain.

How much did he get in money?

We will come to all that. If you compare the British medical captain with the engineering captain, he only gets 12 per cent. more than the engineering captain, as against 67 per cent. that our medical captain gets above the engineering captain. I have only given here the British rates. If Deputies want them I can get the rates of pay in other armies.

You have not given us the British rates.

I gave them.

You told us how much higher they were, but you did not tell the rates.

That is in the table I gave the Deputy. In Table II he will see that a medical captain in the British Army only gets 25 per cent. above what an infantry captain gets, whereas our medical captain, under the old rates of pay, got twice as much as an infantry captain, and got more than an infantry colonel.

If the Deputies will look at Table III they will see set out there the "insulting" rates of pay—what Deputy O'Higgins calls "insulting"—that we are offering to professional men in the Army. When a young man leaves the university, having taken a degree in medicine, he will come in at £296 a year. For some reason or another the increments per year were carried on as if a man would remain a second lieutenant in the medical service for a number of years. As a matter of fact it is agreed that in future in the case of anybody joining as a doctor—this has been in practice in the case of the engineers for a long time—his tenure of office as a second lieutenant will not be longer than a year. After the first year, a year of probation, he gets £296, plus certain allowances. If you add those allowances to his pay it brings him up to £412 per year for the first year of service. If you follow him on, you find that in the second year of his service he gets £429 per year. I would ask Deputies to remember that these officers, if they have to travel, get travelling allowances, and if they have to leave a hospital to which they are attached and stay away for a night, they get a living out allowance, and, generally speaking, they have fairly regular hours. If a man marries—a professional officer can get married after three years, and some in special circumstances have been allowed to go on the marriage strength at an earlier date—if he gets married after three years satisfactory service, he will get allowances up to £179 which, with his pay of £340, will bring him up to £519 a year.

Apart from pay, take the case of a married officer after three years' service in the rank of lieutenant, what has he to look forward to? He can remain in the Army for a big number of years, probably about 30 years. If he wants to leave it after 20 years, he will be entitled to the maximum of his pension, if his pension is based in the same way as the pensions of the infantry officers are based. That pension is also something to look forward to, in addition to the £519 per year to which he is entitled if he is a married officer. If he is a married officer he has this also to look forward to: that in addition to his own pension, if he dies after ten years in the service his wife is entitled to a pension and his children, if there are children, to allowances until they reach the age of 18 or 20 years. So that you have this position, taking it at the lowest, that the average man coming in and only getting to the rank of lieutenant, after three years will have £519 a year without any expenses. If there are any expenses in relation to his duty he will be paid them. He will have £519 a year plus a pension for himself, plus a pension for his wife, and plus allowances for his children in case he dies after a certain period of years. I would like to ask Deputies here who know the medical profession throughout the country and what dispensary doctors get, who know, generally speaking, what standard of life the medical people have who set up in private practice, would they be insulted if they got such a job?

I have got a paper here which is the official organ of an organisation calling itself "The Irish Free State Medical Union." I think that Deputy O'Higgins should tell them that that animal does not any longer exist: that there "ain't" any such animal as "the Irish Free State." In the issue of that paper for February of this year they give me "down the banks" for the regulations. I read their article carefully. I actually read the paper all through. Generally speaking, it seems to me to be an organ that is defending the medical interests, trying to keep up their fees, and keep up their status. With that I have no reason to growl at all. I am glad to see that they have an organisation, and I hope it will be successful in keeping up the status of the medical profession, and that those who treat the sick will be able to get a decent living so that they can continue-their good work. I read and I looked through the paper, seeing that it was condemning me for the rates of pay, the "insulting" rates of pay, that we are offering. I said to myself that these people must be well on the road to being millionaires: that, if there is any job going, they must be all getting thousands a year. I looked through the whole paper, from front to back, and I found one advertisement for medical officers. It was put in under the official aegis of this "Irish Free State Medical Union." What do Deputies think were the rates of pay offered for the two jobs advertised in it? Not £519 a year plus a pension for the man himself, plus a pension for his wife if he dies after a certain number of years' service, and plus allowances for his children, but £200 a year and £150 a year, for the only two jobs that were offered in the paper. That is what I found in the paper that condemned me for the "insulting" regulations under which we are giving three and four times more, and ten times the security.

Whole-time?

These were the only two jobs that were advertised in that organ, one at £200 a year and the other at £150.

Whole-time jobs?

I want to know from the Deputy if the rates of pay that we are giving to the Army medical people are not fair, what, in his opinion, is a fair rate? The Deputy asked me to leave this to a free vote of the House. I ask him in return to discuss this matter with the members of his own Party and find out from them what they think about it.

Does the Minister say "yes" or "no" to my request?

I say "no" to it. I ask the Deputy to consult with his own Party and ascertain as to whether they think, when they are not talking in public, that what I have offered is an insulting rate of pay to the medical profession.

I am offering to discuss it without the Whips.

If the Deputy does what I asked him to do, he will find that the members of his own Party are not of the same opinion as himself.

I have made a fair offer.

The Deputy made one allegation that I want to deal with. He said that the regulations which I issued adversely affected every professional officer in the Army. Well, that is one of Deputy O'Higgins' usual exaggerations, because it improved the rate of pay of the engineers, who are professional men, and who are entitled to live as well as the doctors. I found existing in the Army a situation in regard to the rates of pay that I could not stand over.

It did not sicken the Minister for eight years.

In the retired pay scheme that was being drafted for a number of years we laid down a certain scale of pensions for the officers of the various services and corps. Roughly, we gave doctors 25 per cent. more than the officers of the infantry or the officers of the artillery or other corps. By that, I indicated what I thought roughly should be the difference in their rate of pay. Deputy O'Higgins attacked me here because we were giving only 25 per cent. more to a medical captain than to an infantry captain, when in fact his pay was twice as much. As far as I remember, I countered that by saying that that was what I thought was fair. When my attention was called to it I went into the matter and tried to see how best I could draw up a scale of pay that would be fair to all the officers in the Army. Looking at the engineers' rate of pay, compared with the doctors and compared with the infantry men, I thought it was too low.

So you lowered the other fellow.

We raised the engineers because they were too low, and, because the doctors were too high, we brought them down.

After 15 years.

The Deputy made another allegation in regard to that. He said that if a medical officer or a dental officer were to be promoted in future from captain to commandant, he would get so many pounds per week less pay.

On the new rates.

That statement does not happen to be true. The Deputy's statement was that if Captain B. in the medical service of to-day were to be promoted to-morrow to commandant——

From captain to commandant, we will call it.

Go higher even.

Well, we will go to major. The Deputy's statement was that he would lose.

That he would get less pay to-morrow than he is getting to-day?

The Deputy should have read the copy of the regulations which he has got.

On the new rates, he would get less.

The Deputy should have read the regulations which he has got.

On the new rates, he would get less. That is my statement.

The Deputy should have read the regulations.

On a point of personal correction, my statement was to the effect that if an existing captain, who had been five years in that rank, was promoted not only to commandant, but above commandant to major, on the new rates of pay his income would be less than at the present moment.

And that we are doing some damage, because the Deputy also said——

Are we dealing with that point?

Notwithstanding the cost of living, he left the House under the impression that if to-morrow we promoted a medical officer he would get less than he is getting to-day.

Have we deserted the old post?

I wanted to refer the Deputy to the regulation, a copy of which he has got, which says that where the existing rates are higher than the foregoing—that is, the rates recently promulgated for any particular rank—an officer may retain the existing rates for the rank at present held by him. What then was the effect of the regulation? It was that certain officers in the Army had their pay raised; certain other officers in the Army had not their pay raised, but they were given a guarantee——

That it could never be raised.

Under this regulation that they could never be lowered.

Or raised.

The Deputy tried to give the House the impression that they were going to be lowered.

The Deputy told the truth.

The Deputy can make his speech when I have finished.

Thanks for your permission, but it is a right.

Well, I have the right to speak too——

Interruptions should not be made.

——and I claim it, with the Deputy's kind permission.

So that is what the dishonouring of the contract boils down to; that is what the statement that the pay of every professional officer was adversely affected boils down to—that certain of them were going to get their pay and allowances raised, and the others were not going to have them lowered. Deputy O'Higgins allowed himself great latitude in his language, and I do not propose to follow him because this is a rather serious subject and I do not want to be misunderstood in the matter. He said that for the future we would get nothing but the "dregs" and "duds" of the medical profession, the "blacklegs", the "witless loons"; and used other terms belittling the capabilities and the brains of the people we were likely to get. I hold, first of all, that as Minister for Defence, I must have regard to the rates of pay in all branches of the Army, and that I cannot pay the medical people or any pets of mine twice as much as another corps. Whatever the historical reasons may be, the medical rates of pay here were fixed much higher than the British rates, or even than the American rates, as far as I remember, while the infantry officers' rates were fixed much lower. I have tried to get a fair relationship between the pay of the artillery man and the medical man, between that of the infantry man and the engineer. I looked at the whole problem and said: "The medical man or other professional man, who educated himself at his own or at his parents' expense, is undoubtedly entitled to a bit more than the man who did not spend so long at school or college. If we want to get the benefit of their extended course of studies we have to pay for it, and we will have to pay fairly for it."

I arrived at this basis of differentiation, that for the first year we will give to every professional officer who comes into the Army, and has the qualifications that we require, £25 per year for each year he attended the university. Taking the average attendance at the university for the doctor at six years, we are giving him £150 a year more than a lieutenant, say, in the artillery or infantry. As regards the engineer doing an average of four years in the university, to him we are giving £100 a year more than his brother infantry officer. The infantry officer, of course, remains sometimes for quite a number of years as a second lieutenant. The professional man will go up to first lieutenant, with an increase of pay at the end of a probationary single year of service. In addition, the professional man is allowed to get married at the end of three years; the ordinary infantry man at the end of five years, so far as I remember.

I would like to hear from any Deputy on what fairer basis I could fix the scales for the future. It is always very hard, indeed, to interfere with this question of pay. It is very easy to give increases; it is very hard to make reductions. I do not want to see the status of the professional people of this country lowered in any way, but I think the rest of the community have the right to see that all their wealth is not going to support the professional classes. Give them a fair do—I am all in favour of it—but we must not favour any section of the community who might have power to influence the scale of income of themselves more than certain other sections of the community; we certainly must not, in the public service, give countenance to an inordinate rate of pay for professional men beyond that of people who might not have had the opportunity to go forward into the professions. By all manner of means we must treat our professional people decently. We must give them a fair rate of pay.

What I want to know from any Deputy is that if he thinks what I have tried to arrange is not a fair rate of pay for both the medical and the engineering officers, bearing in mind what the infantry and the artillery officers have, then what, in his opinion, is a fair rate, and how much per university year are we to give? Are we to take into account in any way the number of years the engineer serves as against a doctor, and the number of years a doctor serves in the university as against, say, a dentist? I will put these questions. If these are not fair rates, what are fair rates, how are we to arrive at them, and how are we to make any difference between one professional man and another, whose university careers differ in length? How are we to arrive at that basis? If some of the Fine Gael Deputies do not address themselves to those questions here, I would like them to do so outside the House, to think over them and to tell Deputy O'Higgins privately whether they think that the present rates of pay are fair for the medical people, having regard to the rate of pay for the engineers, having regard to the infantry man's rate of pay, and having regard to the general interests of the community.

The Minister has submitted a table in which he marks down the percentage of the medical rate above the infantry rate and above the engineering rate. The Minister will observe that there are two figures in both of the columns, infantry and medical, and also in respect of engineers. He confines himself to one figure in the percentage and does not take the average of either. Why does he not give the two figures in each case?

I could not possibly undertake to deal with all the figures in that table under two hours. I have given one set of figures. I have given all Deputies copies of the tables, and I have made one thing out of the figures. If anybody else can make anything to the contrary, or contradict my argument in any way, for goodness sake let him do it.

The Minister will admit the figures are set up to prove what he wants to prove to the House?

The figures are correct.

No figure is correct which is misleading. Figures must always be referred to something definite. For example, here we have an infantry officer having £183 to £256, and a medical man with £219 to £456. The Minister selects the £256 and the £456 and makes the percentage on that. What is the objection to doing it in the other case? The other case, the Minister will observe, will be about 20 per cent., and it would not be such an attractive figure at all.

I did not take the worst figures deliberately.

The whole case is based upon that, and I suggest that when we get figures, at least they ought to be complete and not misleading.

Official figures.

Yes, official figures. I think there was a weakness in the Minister's case in which he set out to appraise the value of university years. If the circumstances are the same there might be something to be said for them. As regards the case made by Deputy O'Higgins, which I am taking as correct, that you have in the medical service specially qualified medical men as distinct from men being qualified, the Defence forces are partaking of what might be called the cream of the profession. If that is required, if we want efficient service, if we want men that the Army can rely upon when it calls upon their services, when it knows that they are the most efficient, the best qualified, I suggest to the Minister that he has got to pay for that. If the Minister goes around town he will find it is possible to buy a suit of clothes for something like 50/-, but if he goes to a first-class tailor he will pay ten guineas. There is a very considerable difference between the two and very different value between the two. And if we require expert services from the best qualified men, then it is not a question of simply totting up how many pounds a year one will allow for the period a man served in the university. I wonder if, in connection with his calculations for the university careers of these men, he made any extra provision for a post-graduate course, or if he made any allowance for being an exhibitioner?

Comparing the two sets of tables, on the British rates, a captain starts at £447 a year and goes up to £535. Under the new rates here a captain is going to get £376 and go up to £449. If we are to take the Minister's statement at its true value, is there not a greater attraction in the pay that is going to be offered in the British Army than that which is offered here for a medical officer who considers that particular scale and who has to look after his prospects in the world? Are our soldiers not entitled to get the best service that it is possible to get for them? Are we, for the sake of a few pounds a year, going to mark the difference between a first class medical man and a pass man? It was not for that purpose that we introduced in this State the Local Appointments Commission. It was not for that purpose that we hear day after day from medical men the desirability and the necessity of having post-graduate courses. This table and this scheme appear to me to characterise, if it were necessary to characterise still more clearly, the mediocrity of the Government—their hopeless, soulless mediocrity. They are dragging everything in the country, or trying to drag it down to their own level. Our soldiers are entitled to better treatment than that.

They are also entitled to be led by good men in the Army and in the field.

One would imagine that when, I will not say a responsible person, but a person holding a responsible post, presumes to give official figures to Parliament, the true figures would be given and that they would not be presented in a thoroughly misleading way, particularly when we are dealing with conditions in another army and in another State. That kind of misleading presentation of conditions could easily lead to international unpleasantness. We had a table issued by the Minister, and I would ask every Deputy to retain his copy, of what he alleges to be the rates of pay for medical officers in another army, and it gives the rate of pay, rank by rank. The deduction that a Deputy is to draw from that and the case made by the Minister over those figures is that the lieutenant medical officers and junior medical officers in our Army are paid higher rates than in the British Army. Did the Minister tell any Deputy in Dáil Eireann that when a man joined the Army Medical Service of the British Services he was guaranteed automatic promotion with time; that he could look forward after six months to being a captain or out of the army; that after so many years he would be a major or out of the army; that after 20 years he would have to be a lieutenant-colonel or out of the army; and that, in fact, what the British guarantee is that the man who is there for ten years is drawing something in the neighbourhood of £1,000 a year and that the man who is there for 19 or 20 years is drawing practically £2,000 a year?

Is that what is shown there? I have the official rates here, if the Minister would like to be educated in the affairs and the business of the Department of Defence by an Opposition Deputy. Did the Minister tell you, when he was giving those British rates of pay, that officers in the British Army were paid, in addition to the rates there, from 5/- to £1 a day command pay and charge pay? Do you think, if my statements are true, that we listened to a truthful, honourable presentation of a case by a person holding a responsible office? The bench the Minister is speaking from is degraded by his activities here this evening, and the Parliament that would take it meekly and patiently would deserve to be degraded.

Figures issued from a Government Front Bench by a responsible Minister, whether they suit his case or not, should at least be honestly presented, and all the facts associated with those figures should be stated, not withheld because the case would not sound as good if the truth were given.

The Minister contrasts the junior officer in our Army with the junior officer in the British Army, and he withholds the fact that the junior officer in the British Army is guaranteed promotion every few years, so that, if he serves his 20 years, he must be at least a major and, if he is continued in that army, a lieutenant-colonel. In our Army, what are they guaranteed? They are guaranteed, as far as experience shows, that they remain at the one rank for 15 or 20 years.

They are guaranteed, further, that, if they get promotion, there will be no increase in pay. If the rates in our Army were as good as rates elsewhere do you think that we would have all the trouble about it? Do you think we would have the executive notices? Do you think the leaders of the profession, if rates were as good here as elsewhere, would be warning young doctors and warning their parents not to touch service in the Irish Army without consulting with an official of their association? The fact was mentioned here on a previous occasion, and I want to call the attention of the Dáil to it, that one of the things we claim here with pride is that we are not just a little State, but that we are a motherland, and that we have our sons and daughters outside our shores all over this great world, and that our responsibility to sons abroad is equal to our responsibility to sons at home; and that when the profession think it necessary to safeguard parents and young doctors here at home from going under a service that has the brand of tyranny, from entering a cul-de-sac, with no future, that we have a similar obligation on us to warn those of our sons who are in exile. That is the explanation for having published that notice abroad, and instead of apologising for it, one should refer to it with pride that we do not forget. It is not "out of sight out of mind." We have as much care for the son or the brother that is gone abroad as for the son or the brother that remains at home.

As far as the Minister attempted to make any case inside the Irish Army for the reduction in the rates of medical pay, his case was based on the difference between pre-existing medical pay and rank and the pay for other officers of the same rank. That case was as misleading and as dishonestly put as the case that was put in the parallel with the British Army. If the Minister will not learn from his own experience, cannot he learn from the experience of others? Does he not know that inside the Army, of which he is the Minister now, originally medical officers and others were on the same rate of pay; that the highest grade of medical officer was major general and the lowest commandant; and that that meant that the commandant received pay of £1 per day, but they were paid exactly the same rates as regimental officers. The lowest rank was commandant and the highest major-general and any doctor entering the Army could then have as his ambition that he would ultimately become a major-general. Then, it was decided that, in order to keep the line of command down along, it would be advisable to telescope the ranks in the medical service, to push everybody down three ranks, and so the major became a lieutenant, the major-general became a major and the colonel became a commandant, but the assurance and the guarantee given was that there would be no interference with the rates of pay for the individual. Having telescoped everybody down three ranks, you arrived at a position at which the pay of the medical officer, as against the pay of another officer, was considerably higher.

Did the Minister tell the Dáil that? I want to drive it into the minds of every Deputy, irrespective of Party, to make up his mind whether he has got an honest case over there, or whether he has got a case where it is necessary to withhold the facts and to mislead the Deputies. The Minister knows better than I do, if he is attending to his job, that the pay of medical people per rank was the same as other officers originally, and that then they were telescoped down, by arrangement, but without interfering with pay. Did the Minister tell the House that if an officer joins the Army Medical Service, the highest rank he can ever obtain is that of major, and that the highest rate of pay he can ever obtain is as laid down here, something in the neighbourhood of £500 a year, and that if he is in any other service of the Army, if he is a regimental officer, he can aim at being a lieutenant-general with a salary of £1,200 a year? In other words, far from the medical professional officers, the doctors, the dentists and the lawyers, getting rates of pay higher than others, the position is that the man who enters without any profession, without any diploma, without any qualifications for the job, the man who is going to be trained at the expense of the State, if he is an ambitious man, and if he is the best in his unit, can aim at ultimately reaching a rate of pay of £1,200 a year, while the highest rate which the man who comes in trained and qualified at his own expense, or at the expense of his parents, the man who obviously comes in more advanced in years, because he has gone through a lengthy university course, and the man who obviously must look forward to a much shorter service life, can reach is half the rate that can be reached by the untrained man.

The Minister appealed to the sense of justice of Deputies on the ground that we cannot pay extravagant rates of pay; that we cannot pay people extravagant rates and have others paid low rates. He did not tell the House that the man outside the medical service who comes to the top can reach a rate of pay in this Army twice the rate that can be reached by the highest doctor in the Army.

That is not true, of course.

What is the highest rate in the Army? The Minister does not give us the rates for either major-general or lieutenant-general.

£800 a year is the major-general's pay.

And a major-general, if he is Chief-of-Staff?

£200 a year.

£200 extra. We will get the truth by degrees. A major-general if he is adjutant-general?

We have no such thing.

I did not ask whether you have such a thing or not. There was a major-general who was adjutant-general a few years ago, and there may be again to-morrow. Why is the truth withheld? It does not suit the book. Is that the way to treat the Dáil? There again, we have, even with regard to our own rates, information withheld from Parliament. That is the honourable standard we are to uphold in an Irish Parliament—secrecy——

It is published in the Estimates.

——misleading statements and reluctance to tell the truth because it does not suit the case. The fact of the matter is, and we will leave aside comparative rates, old rates or new rates, that there is one admirable precedent in this and every other country, that, when a person enters State employment, there is an honourable obligation, an honourable contract, between the State and that individual, and that, even in times when ruthless economy is required, if it is necessary to cut, to lop, to chop, personal holders of office are exempt. They remain to serve on the conditions under which they joined and the rates are altered for the newcomer, for the man who joins under the new rate. So far as I know, for the first time in this State and by this Parliament, that honourable understanding, that honouring of a contract between the State and the individual, is trampled in the mud. A new precedent is being established, the precedent that we are to put up the State as an example to all employers, and that example is that, any time it suits them, they will break any contract entered into, and we are to do that, and I repeat it, because of pique between an individual Minister and a group of people outside the Army.

These officers, having given 15, 16 and 17 years' service, are to find themselves in the position that no matter what promotion they get, they can never increase their income. The Minister talks about rates inside and rates outside. Who would send a son for medicine, who would send a son for dentistry, who would send a son for law, if the position was that, if he got to the very top of his profession, the highest rate he could ever earn was something in the neighbourhood of 31/- a day, and that if he came to the very top, after, let us say, 20 or 25 years, the highest rate would be 34/6 a day? But yet the standard we are to establish here is that if a doctor joins the Army, if a dentist joins the Army, if a lawyer joins the Army, and if he pulls out from all his colleagues, if he secures the highest position in the Army, a position that in other armies would carry a salary of £3,000 or £4,000 a year, his pay will be at the generous rate of 34/6 a day.

Of course, that is not true.

Question put.
The Dáil divided:—Tá: 23; Níl: 60.

  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George C.
  • Benson, Ernest E.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, John L.
  • Gorey, Denis J.
  • Hannigan, Joseph.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • Reidy, James.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Fogarty, Patrick J.
  • Friel, John.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Hurley, Jeremiah.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Loughman, Francis.
  • McDevitt, Henry A.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Meaney, Cornelius.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Munnelly, John.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Tubridy, Seán.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Conn.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Doyle and Bennett; Nil, Deputies Little and Smith.
Motion declared lost.

I understand the Labour Party do not desire to resume the debate on Motion No. 14 now.

The Dáil adjourned at 9.50 p.m. until Wednesday, 15th March, 1939, at 3 p.m.

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