Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Jul 1939

Vol. 76 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Waterford City Management Bill, 1939—Report and Final Stage.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. O Ceallaigh)

I move amendment No. 1:—

In page 5, to delete Section 9 (2) and substitute a new sub-section as follows:—

(2) At an election of the mayor the following provisions shall apply and have effect, that is to say:—

(a) the proceedings shall begin by the candidate or candidates being proposed and seconded and no person who is not then proposed and seconded shall be eligible as a candidate;

(b) where there are more than two candidates duly proposed and seconded, a poll shall be taken;

(c) if at such poll a majority of the members of the Council present vote for any particular candidate, such candidate shall be elected to be the mayor;

(d) If at such poll no candidate receives the votes of a majority of the members of the Council present, the candidate receiving the least number of votes shall be eliminated and, subject to the provisions of the next following paragraph of this sub-section, a further poll shall be held among the remaining candidates;

(e) where there are only two candidates or where, as a result of one or more polls taken under the foregoing paragraphs of this sub-section, all the candidates except two have been eliminated, the question as to which of such two candidates shall be elected to be the mayor shall be put to the Council and whichever of such candidates receives the greater number of votes on such question shall be elected to be the mayor;

(f) if from an equality of votes given to two or more candidates any question arises under this sub-section as to which of such candidates is to be eliminated or as to which of such candidates is to be elected, such question shall be decided by lot and accordingly, in respect of every such case, the provisions of Section 83 of the Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Act, 1840, relating to an equality of votes at the election of a mayor shall not apply.

This amendment is really only a drafting amendment, although it seems rather a long-winded one. It is taking out the original section and making more explicit the nature of the proceedings at the election of mayor, and to prevent what has happened in a few places in recent years—in Cork and Sligo—where there were difficulties over the selection of a mayor.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I move amendment No. 2:—

In page 20, Schedule, to insert after the words "nursery grounds" the words "or allotments."

The purpose of this is to add allotments and to give them the benefit of the reduction in the rate that is given in the Schedule to a variety of lands used as arable, meadow or pasture grounds.

Amendment agreed to

Question: "That the Bill, as amended, be received for final consideration," put and agreed to.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Mr. Hickey

I am objecting to this Bill because, under the terms of the Bill, and similar City Management Acts, the manager is really the manager of the council, and the council has no control. We feel that there is certainly room for a manager for purposes of administration, but we are entirely opposed to giving him the executive authority that he has at the moment. We believe that when you have a manager in a city council or any other administrative council, that manager, first of all, should get the consent of the council for anything that he is going to do. As things are, we object to being treated merely as rubber stamps and seeing items on the Agenda for two or three weeks, and then being informed that the thing has been done, and that we are to act merely as rubber stamps whether the thing is right or wrong. We are not opposed to the managerial system, and we are satisfied that, when a manager brings in any concrete or reasonable proposal, no matter what the constitution of the council or corporation concerned may be, the manager can always rely on getting a sufficient majority to back him up in any reasonable proposal, but we think that the Minister should reconsider his attitude in this matter. At the moment, that control is not in the hands of the administrative council, and it is for that reason we are opposing the Bill. The manager should be in the same position as, say, the managing director in a big industrial concern, who would consult his directors as to what he proposed to do, and then, having got their consent, would proceed to do it. I think it is quite obvious that in any reasonable body of men you can always rely on them to consent to any reasonable proposal, but we object to a person doing a thing and then coming along and telling us in the council that he has already done the thing and that, whether we like it or not, it has been done.

Mr. Broderick

I do not intend to enter into the whole question of the managerial system now. What is before us at the moment is the question of the Waterford City Management Bill, and I may say that, with regard to the various objections and suggestions that were made to the Minister by the various people with some authority who were representative of the City of Waterford, the Minister has fairly met them, and met them to the satisfaction of those who were instructed from Waterford. In saying that, however, I cannot say that the Waterford City people are enthusiastic about this Bill or that they are enthusiastic about the management system. Their whole attitude is that they are acquiescing in what they have no power to prevent, and are doing their best to make the City Management Bill, as now proposed to them, as agreeable for themselves and as useful as they can possibly make it in order to carry out, under the managerial system, the work of the City of Waterford. I am pleased to say that on this matter every reasonable representation has been met by the Minister so far as he could meet them, consistent with the principles for which he stands, and wherever he found that he could meet the wishes of the people there, he has done so.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

It seems that the House as a whole has accepted the principle of managerial control. I gather that that is the view of the Labour Party as expressed now by Deputy the Lord Mayor of Cork—that, in principle, they have no objection to the managerial system.

Mr. Hickey

We have no objection to it as a system, but we do object to managerial control.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Well, the question of control is a question of degree.

Mr. Hickey

That may be.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

There will always be differences upon that question. You would never get agreement here in this House or in any municipal council as to how far that matter of control should go. So far as my knowledge goes, however, the system has worked out satisfactorily in Dublin, in Limerick—although it is not very long in operation there—and in Dun Laoghaire. In these three places it has worked out satisfactorily, so far as my knowledge goes, and there has been no trouble. With regard to Cork, I have had before me for some time amendments suggested by the municipal council, and these are being considered, and a Bill will be brought in at an early date embodying a number of these suggestions. But I understood that the system was working moderately satisfactorily in Cork City also. I remember, about three or four years ago, meeting one or two people in Cork who complained that the manager was not consulting the members of the municipal council. These people were not members of the municipal council, but were evidently in close touch with members of the council. A year or a year and a half later these same people came to me to say that they wanted to withdraw their remarks. Of course we are all human beings, and human beings differ, and where you may get one manager, perhaps in Cork, Limerick or Dun Laoghaire, who will consult the council on every occasion, and see that he gets the consent of his council to do things —and things even over which they have practically no control—other managers might take a different view. As long as we have to deal with human beings we will have these differences in administration.

My idea would be the same as that of Deputy the Lord Mayor of Cork—that the Manager should be the chief executive officer of the municipal council in the same way as a managing director might be the chief executive officer of a large industrial concern who would consult his board. That would be the ideal thing. It may not be working out 100 per cent. in Cork, but let us hope that, with a little more experience of getting smooth working by proper consultation, the system will move as smoothly in Cork as elsewhere.

I thank Deputy Broderick for his remarks. My only anxiety in this Bill was to meet, as far as possible, the wishes of the people of Waterford who were interested in the matter and who asked me, as a general feeling, that the system might be applied with advantage to Waterford City, and I brought in a Bill accordingly.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 83 83; Níl, 8.

Tá

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Denis.
• Bartley, Gerald.
• Beegan, Patrick.
• Benson, Ernest E.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Brady, Brian.
• Brady, Seán.
• Breathnach, Cormac.
• Breen, Daniel.
• Brennan, Michael.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Broderick, William J.
• Browne, Patrick.
• Buckley, Seán.
• Byrne, Alfred (Junior).
• Carty, Frank.
• Cosgrave, William T.
• Costello, John A.
• Crowley, Fred Hugh.
• Crowley, Tadhg.
• Daly, Patrick.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Dillon, James M.
• Dockrell, Henry M.
• Doyle, Peadar S.
• Esmonde, John L.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Flinn, Hugo V.
• Flynn, John.
• Flynn, Stephen.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• Fogarty, Patrick J.
• Friel, John.
• Giles, Patrick.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Hogan, Daniel.
• Humphreys, Francis.
• Keating, John.
• Kennedy, Michael J.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kissane, Eamon.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick J.
• Loughman, Francis.
• Lynch, James B.
• McCann, John.
• McDevitt, Henry A.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• McGovern, Patrick.
• Meaney, Cornelius.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Moore, Séamus.
• Morrissey, Michael.
• Moylan, Seán.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Munnelly, John.
• Nally, Martin.
• O Briain, Donnchadh.
• O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
• O'Loghlen, Peter J.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• O'Rourke, Daniel.
• O'Sullivan, John.
• O'Sullivan, Ted.
• Redmond, Bridget M.
• Reynolds, Mary.
• Rogers, Patrick J.
• Ruttledge, Patrick J.
• Ryan, James.
• Ryan, Martin.
• Ryan, Robert.
• Sheridan, Michael.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Traynor, Oscar.
• Victory, James.
• Walsh, Laurence J.
• Ward, Conn.

Níl

• Corish, Richard.
• Davin, William.
• Hickey, James.
• Hurley, Jeremiah.
• Keyes, Michael.
• Murphy, Timothy J.
• Norton, William.
• Pattison, James P.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Keyes and Hickey.

Motion declared carried.