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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Nov 1939

Vol. 77 No. 7

Financial Resolutions. - No. 1—Income Tax.

I move:—

(1) That every sum paid or deducted in respect of income-tax within two months after the 5th day of April, 1940, which consists wholly of a payment or deduction made by virtue of Section 6 of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927), in respect of income-tax for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1940, shall be calculated at the rate of six shillings and sixpence in the pound, and the said Section 6 shall apply and have effect in relation thereto as if that rate had been the standard rate of income-tax for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1939.

(2) That the following provisions shall apply and have effect in relation to every sum paid or deducted in respect of income-tax within two months after the 5th day of April, 1940, which consists partly of a payment or deduction made in respect of income-tax for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1939, and partly of a payment or deduction made, by virtue of Section 6 of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927), in respect of income-tax for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1940, that is to say:—

(a) so much of the said sum as consists of a payment or deduction in respect of income-tax for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1939, shall be calculated at the rate of five shillings and sixpence in the pound, being the standard rate of income-tax for that year;

(b) so much of the said sum as consists of a payment or deduction made, by virtue of the said Section 6, in respect of income-tax for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1940, shall be calculated at the rate of six shillings and sixpence in the pound, and the said Section 6 shall apply and have effect in relation thereto as if that rate had been the standard rate of income-tax for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1939.

The country generally will be rather surprised at the introduction of this Supplementary Budget. The surprise will probably grow according as the Minister's statement, which he has just read, is perused throughout the country. The Budget of this year proposed to raise more money than had ever been collected in revenue in this country since the State was established. The Minister's case in respect of the introduction of this Budget is that of a contraction in revenue under various heads, and he proceeds then to make up for the shortage by imposing various additional taxes upon the country. Bearing in mind the Budget of this year and its general framework, and the statement that the Minister has made here this evening, it does not appear to me possible to take any other attitude in connection with this measure than to vote against it from beginning to end. Parts of the Minister's speech would appear to contradict other parts. On the occasion of the introduction of the Budget this year in May last, I pointed out on more than one occasion some 20 or 25 separate services of the State the estimates for which in the current year exceeded by over £1,000,000 what they were in 1931-32, starting with the office of the Prime Minister himself; and not one of the services that I mentioned had anything to do with the social services.

There is no other view to take than that the Government "squandermania" of May last has been still further enhanced during the succeeding six or seven months. The difficulties of the period through which we are passing— which should in the normal course have brought them down to earth—have, instead of that, made them still more extravagant. Perhaps the most unsatisfactory feature of this Budget statement—which has been read by the Minister—is that portion of it in which he refers to the Economy Committee. One would have imagined that, in a case of this sort, a very much more exhaustive examination would have been made of the whole of the State services and a really constructive effort would have been made to decrease in some way or other the charges which fall to be met by taxation or other means.

On page 10 he says: "These are the factors"—mentioning projects involving expenditure, being deferred until better times, and so on—"forming the background of the interim reports already submitted. They deal with Land Commission expenditure, unemployment assistance, employment schemes, housing expenditure and draws on the Local Loans Fund for a variety of services." Apparently, having advised everybody in the country to continue employment as far as they possibly could, to disemploy no one unless it were impossible to do otherwise, here are the various sources which are examined in order to make economies in services in which employment is afforded. The 20 separate services that I have mentioned, the estimated cost of which is £1,000,000 over what they were ten years ago, are the services which should have been examined with minute care. If we take just one other: quite recently here there has been an addition to the ranks of the Gárda Síochána; there has been no outbreak of disorder in any part of the country, no special circumstance necessitating the employment of extra men, yet that particular service is going to cost us £60,000 this year and £120,000 in a full year, over and above the normal expenditure under this head.

This economic examination does not bear on its face evidence of good faith, and these are not times when the public should be served except in the very best way possible. One is rather inclined—and it may be due to the disappointment and the disgust which arises from the presentation of such a statement as this, and the miserable efforts which have been made to deal with a situation which ought to be tackled in a much more statesmanlike manner—to look back and examine how was it that a change of Government took place in this country. Were there not years and years spent by Deputies opposite in telling the people that the country could be run much more cheaply than it was being run, that we were living on an imperial scale and that the costs of government were far beyond the resources of the people? What do we find? Either those statements were made through absolute ignorance—and I hope they were—or they were made by people standing upon political dishonesty. I would much prefer that they were made through ignorance, but whether they were made through ignorance or through dishonesty, the fact is that the statements made had not a shred of evidence to support them. In every year that they have been charged with government, the expenses and cost of government have increased. What is the situation with regard to the ability of people to bear these increased costs? In Appendix No. 10, I think, of the Banking Commission Report, furnished by Professor Duncan, he estimates the income of this country over a series of years and, in 1929, he estimated the income at £160,000,000. It has not reached that figure since in any year, and the costs of government in 1929 were very different from what they are in 1939, or in any of the years since 1932.

In the course of this statement the Minister says that they are going to take drastic steps to deal with those who, by reason of additional charges such as are imposed in this Budget, will be looking for either extra profits or extra wages. What exactly is meant by that? If a man has a salary of £100 a year, and, by reason of the imposition of such a Budget as we have here, it is going to cost him £2 or £3 a year more, is he not entitled to say: "The salary or the wages I have are unequal to the cost of living"? If the business man who just barely manages to get enough to live on, to pay all his expenses and to keep employed those persons who are engaged in the business, finds, by reason of this Budget, that he is short at the end of the year, in balancing his accounts, is the Minister's advice to him to follow the Government's policy, to go into debt and to borrow, or is that man going to raise the price of goods in order to meet the costs incidental to the overhead charges of his business? If a man has a very considerable income, as some people have in this country, and if he finds that, by reason of the Budget, he is not able to maintain on his establishment those who are at present employed, is the Minister going to tell him: "Do what the Government does, and borrow"? What would be the end of all that? If we go further into it, and see what has been the policy adopted here for the last three years, at any rate, of unbalanced Budgets, what would be the answer of any lender to a borrower who has not paid his way when he comes to look for money, no matter how rich he is? Is not the only answer that his credit is not good?

No serious attempt has been made here to ease the burden falling upon industry and agriculture, and upon every section of the community. There is one thing about this Budget, and it is that it is a satisfactory Budget for the teetotallers, for the non-smokers, for those who have no income-tax to pay and for those who do not use sugar, and I presume we have specimens of such ascetics in this country. They will not have to pay. If, by reason of the addition to the beer tax, consumption is going to dry up, if, by reason of the addition to the whiskey tax, consumption is going to dry up, is there not a danger that you are going to destroy a potential tax? Looking over the events of the last 15 years, one is rather surprised at the reduction which has taken place in the revenue derived from taxation from beer and spirits—if my recollection is correct it is down by £3,000,000 or £4,000,000—and in that case the day upon which the teetotaller may expect to bear some of the burden of the extravagance of this Government is probably at hand.

This is a time of national emergency, and, looking through this statement, one would imagine that the States which are neutral have a much more difficult role to play than belligerent States, that nothing is more difficult than neutrality and that belligerency is a sort of amusement compared with it. The stability of the State is just as important to this country as, if not more than, its neutrality, and if we are not able to carry on our business, to give employment to our people, to secure for them that employment which is their due, and to which they are entitled, we may talk as we wish about nationality, patriotism, neutrality, or any other of those things. We have increased, to an unusual extent, the cost of our defence proposals. One is rather surprised on reading this statement to note the Minister's statement, qualified, as nearly every statement made by a Minister is qualified, by another statement, as to the cost of the Army being very considerable. The Minister said:—

"Thus we have been obliged to place under arms a much stronger and better equipped force than the country would need in normal times; we have established a censorship for overseas correspondence; we have set up a coast watching service, and we have entered into considerable commitments in respect of air raid precautions."

I wonder in connection with, say one of the four services mentioned whether the costs of censorship are so large as to warrant their inclusion in a statement of this kind, or are they far beyond what anyone of us ever contemplated. Do they not amount to £100,000? The Minister went on:

"The Government fully realises that a State with our small population and limited resources could not successfully maintain the inviolability of its soil against attack by a great power armed with all the weapons of modern warfare. But we can make, and we are bound to make, such preparations as would convince a potential aggressor that the military and political cost of overcoming our resistance would be greater than it would be wise to incur."

That means that our propaganda must be of a much higher power than our gunnery. I should like to know what set of belligerents anyone could convince by arguments in this business of a war.

Later in this statement, we find that we are now paying more for our equipment than if it had been bought earlier. In what respect do we find any evidence of the competency of the Government in the present crisis? In the first place, there appears to be a policy of "hush-hush" with regard to matters generally. Secondly, the people are being led to believe that there is nothing more difficult than to observe neutrality and that we should be prepared to spend every penny we have to maintain it. Thirdly, we are told that we must increase our armed forces while the Government have not taken the steps necessary to equip them. We are told that they are buying now at the highest prices instead of at the lowest. Are we so wealthy that we can afford that? That is on the general question.

Let me come down now to the details in regard to the sugar question. Sugar is to be taxed at the rate of 7/- per cwt., or ¾d. per lb. In the whole list of matters which have occasioned public discussion, nothing possibly has given greater dissatisfaction to the people than this question of sugar. We were told that there was plenty of sugar in the country. Was there? If there was, there is more than 7/- per cwt. being placed in the way of taxation on the people. What did the sugar that the Sugar Company have got cost? Did they pay 8/- per cwt.? Did they pay 15/-? They did not, or anything like it.

Perhaps more.

Perhaps more than 15/-? If the Minister would make a statement on that matter, it might perhaps ease the public mind to some extent. I cannot accept the statement than 15/- per cwt. was paid before the 1st September. I would not accept it. The price now, including the duty that the public is going to be charged, is 42/- per cwt., or £42 per ton. The total excise duty is 23/4. That is very near 20/- duty free. Leaving out the odd coppers, 15/- would be the average price, 15/- per cwt. or £15 per ton, as the case may be. In my opinion that is far in excess of the import price paid for sugar here, on the average, since the 1st April last or before that, assuming that sugar was imported prior to the 1st April and placed in bond.

The excise duty has been raised from 1/2 to 8/2, and the Minister says that the price is the price ruling in neighbouring countries. I should like to get some further information on that, because the information we have is that sugar is sold at 3d. or 3½d. per lb. in England. This is a tax that falls very heavily on the working-class population, and if there is any extravagance in the cost of Government services, it is a tax that is not justified. It is an unjust tax. We may call ourselves a Christian country, a well-disposed country, and claim that this is a predominantly Catholic country, but it is unjust and unfair to the working class of this country and to those whose incomes are small, to place such an enormous burden upon them it a time like this. I regret that I can see no other course than to object to each one of these Resolutions.

When the Minister for Industry and Commerce was speaking on the last occasion on which the House sat, I felt that his statement was such as to disclose that he did not appreciate the very serious unemployment problem now confronting the country. A still greater unemployment problem will, I fear, face this country in the immediate months ahead, and while we have had that view expressed by the Minister, who endeavoured to make light of the increase in unemployment, we have now, after the Government have had time to consider the question, in the light of recent developments, another point of view expressed by the Minister for Finance, who looks at the matter from a financial standpoint. This Budget seems to be the Budget of a Government who do not appreciate the seriousness of the unemployment problem and the heavy responsibility that falls upon them to make provision for the serious dislocation in our employment position. Right throughout the Budget, there has been no intimation whatever that the Government proposes to take any substantial steps to deal with what is, in my view, the most serious problem of all. An examination of Government statistics will show that in the past two months there has been a very substantial increase in the number of persons registered at the employment exchanges. Now that some of the Employment Period Orders have expired, and that others are due to expire shortly, we may find registered at the employment exchanges, within the next month probably, not less than 120,000 or 130,000 persons, satisfying the hard test which our unemployment legislation imposes upon them before they are classified as unemployed persons. Yet, in face of the fact, that we have 120,000 or 130,000 persons unemployed in this small State of ours, we scarcely get the question of unemployment mentioned in this Budget at all. There is no intimation whatever that the Government appreciate the heavy responsibility that they have in that connection.

When this Budget is passed, the unemployment problem will apparently be tinkered with in the same unsatisfactory way as we have been tinkering with it for the past 12 months, aye, for the past two decades. We are going to have a still more serious problem to deal with, a problem such as we have not been called on to face for the last 20 years because we are now going to find ourselves face to face with the position that where you had endemic unemployment in the past, you will now find a large number of other persons thrown on the employment market, persons who formerly followed occupations in which there was regular employment at decent rates of pay. The crisis through which we are passing now is one which will throw on the employment market large numbers of persons who never experienced anything but regular employment in their vocational activities. Yet, in a Budget of this kind, which hits the highlights of internationalism at one point, we find no reference whatever to the necessity of finding some solution for the serious problem, the problem of utilising the brains and brawn of the man power of the country. No hope is held out in this Budget that the amount provided for unemployment assistance will be raised to meet the higher cost of living.

There is no intimation that anything will be done to meet the present intolerably low unemployment insurance benefits: no intimation at all that even the non-contributory sections of the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Act will be amended to provide better scales of benefit. The old age pensioners, living on a miserable State pittance, will see that pittance being constantly reduced by a shrinkage in its purchasing power.

All these classes will get no solace whatever from a Budget of this kind. Instead, so far as the social services of the country are concerned, we are threatened with a curtailment of these services by reason of the activities of the Economy Committee. Although the Minister for Finance told us that he has had two reports from this Committee, the second a lengthy one, we have not had from him any intimation as to what economies it is proposed to effect under the report of that Committee, or what social services are likely to be curtailed as a result of the Government's decision on the report of the Committee. Instead we are being asked, presumably, to support a Budget of this kind, and later on will be told that part of the Budget involves a curtailment of the activities of certain departments, and perhaps a restriction of the social services which was provided for, in our efforts to balance the Budget. I, for one, want to know what recommendations the Economy Committee have made: what proposals made by the Committee have been accepted by the Government, and who is going to suffer and bear the hardship as a result of the implementation of any portion of the report of that Committee.

The Budget, in any case, makes one thing clear. It tells us definitely that the people are now being asked to pay 1½d per lb. more for their sugar. I suggest that the Budget in that respect is not keeping faith with the House: that it is not honouring the promise which the Minister for Supplies made to the Dáil at its meeting on the 18th October. Speaking on that occasion the Minister for Supplies—the quotation is from the Dáil Debates, 18th October, 1939, column 742—said:—

"Some Deputy asked whether the stand-still order for sugar still operates. It still operates for the sale of sugar. We do not anticipate any immediate change in the price of sugar."

And yet, approximately a fortnight after that statement was made, the public were horrified to read in an announcement by the Government Information Bureau that even in respect of the stocks of sugar then in the country: even in respect of stocks of sugar produced by our own beet factories, and even in respect of stocks of sugar in wholesalers' and retailers' premises, the public were going to be compelled to pay an extra 1½d. per lb. They were told that, after having an assurance from the Minister for Supplies that we had plenty of sugar in the country and that the problems in connection with its distribution would disappear almost immediately. Side by side with the statement as to an abundant or adequate supply, we had the assurance that the Government did not contemplate, or anticipate, an immediate change in the price of sugar, but we now find ourselves in the position where, overnight almost, people are being compelled to pay an extra 1½d. per lb. for it. We see here in this Budget the reason why they are being compelled to pay that. The reason why they are being compelled to pay this additional 1½d. per lb. for sugar is so that the Government can levy a new tax, an additional tax, of three farthings per lb. on sugar, in addition to the 1¾d. which is at present imposed on it. Under this Budget, therefore, we are clapping on a tax of 2½d. per lb. on every lb. of sugar bought by every man, woman, and child in this country.

My memory carries me back to the day when we had the viewpoint expressed by the previous Minister for Finance in which he told us that a tax on sugar was a hard tax: that he preferred to take it off sugar and put it on tea, so convinced was he that a hard tax on sugar was one which ought not to be borne by the people. I think that the then Minister for Finance was right when he expressed that view.

This, I think, is the first time the Deputy has said that I was right.

Well, after all, in ten years, even the present Minister for Industry and Commerce had a chance of saying the right thing, and I gladly acknowledge that he did then.

Judging by the speech the Deputy made on that occasion, I thought he was of the opinion that the Minister was wrong.

The Deputy should look up his own speech on that occasion.

The Minister should look up some of his recent speeches.

I would advise the Minister for Supplies to look up the speech that he made in the Dáil on the 18th October, in which he promised that there would be no immediate change in the price of sugar. Now, in this Budget the Government are clapping on a tax of 2½d. on every pound of sugar consumed here. I want to tell the present Minister for Finance that I agree with the viewpoint of his predecessor: that a tax on sugar is a hard tax. If the Minister looks up a speech by his predecessor, who is quoted in this Budget speech—the speech in which his predecessor took the tax off sugar—he will find there very convincing reasons why he should not proceed to increase the tax on sugar, as he proposes to do, in this Budget. I think it is an outrageous tax on poor people. In respect of a working-class household with a large number of children, the tax on sugar is probably the heaviest tax which that family has to bear, because it is on a commodity which is used very extensively in the household. But, apparently, the idea in this Budget is to grab all you can.

The most interesting part of the Budget speech is, in my opinion, set out on page 22. Here the Minister for Finance tells us, although the price of sugar has gone up by 1½d. per lb., as well as the price of coal, bread, flour, milk, and various other commodities, that "The Government... is determined to set its face against the efforts of any class to obtain compensation for the rise in prices at the expense of the community," so that so far as the ordinary working man is concerned, the man who lives by his ability to earn a week's wages, and whose ability to earn that week's wages is the only thing which separates him from the workhouse, he is being told that although the Government will tax his sugar and such beer as he can afford to buy, that it will tax his tobacco still further, and will do nothing to prevent an increase in the price of his coal, flour, bread, milk, and the various other commodities which he requires, the one thing the Government will do is to stand in and set its face against any attempt by him to obtain compensation for a rise in prices at the expense of the community.

That is a definite intimation to the workers and farmers of the country that, so far as the Government are concerned, they will stand by powerless and helpless, where they are not the actual swag gatherers themselves, and permit prices to increase apparently without any systematic restriction. The only time they will act is when they set their faces against the effort of any class to obtain compensation for the rise in prices.

I wish the Government good luck in that policy. I am quite satisfied that the organised workers of this country will take no notice of whether the Government set their face one way or the other in that connection. The workers of this country have a standard of living to maintain. It does not enhance the reputation of the country, or strengthen the economic position or promote industrial peace in the country to have the Government issuing an edict of that kind—that it is determined to set its face against any attempt by the workers to maintain their standard of living. Are they to be expected to stand idly by and see their wages reduced: to see their purchasing power reduced by a rise in prices, while the Government, instead of bringing in a proposal to maintain their standard and, if possible, improve it, merely act by introducing something to drag the workers down to the intolerably low standard that they were compelled to endure heretofore. The organised workers will answer that challenge by the Minister. Where it is not an incentive to cut wages, it is an intimation that in future the Department of Industry and Commerce, which ought to hold the scales evenly between workers and employers, will on this occasion, as we have been told in this Budget speech, be on the side of those who either want to reduce the workers' wages or keep the workers from obtaining better wages to improve their standard of living.

This is particularly good advice especially given in the same Parliament in which Deputies' salaries were increased and in which pensions were provided for ex-Ministers. We were told by the Taoiseach on one occasion that Ministers' salaries had been reduced and that it was not in the public interest to let them remain so low as they were, though he had the assurance to assert previously that they were too high. A new scale was fixed. It was discovered that the existing scale had been too low and the Taoiseach's explanation was that it was not in the public interest that Ministers' salaries should be continued at the low scale at which they stood. Apparently the Executive Council recognised that the public interest was justification enough for going back to the scale of salaries which had been condemned at every cross-roads in the country. In the same year as that in which we have provided pensions for ex-Ministers on a scale that prevails in no other country in the world, we are told that the Government has set its face against the efforts of any class to obtain compensation for a rise in prices at the expense of the community. The Minister told us that that would be sternly resisted by the Government. There ought to be some little consistency in a matter of this kind.

Yes; will the Deputy read his own speeches on that matter?

We were told there is to be a new loan. But the bankers are not being told that the Government has set its face against any effort on their part to get advantage out of the present financial position and that they are not going to be allowed to get any ransom they demand for the use of the money they lend to the State. We are going to pay a ransom for the money the bankers will lend to the State. For that money they will get 4 per cent. or 5 per cent. and there will be no advice given to the bankers such as is being given to the ordinary workers of the country. I take it the present occasion is one in which the Minister for Finance feels he can give this sort of reactionary advice to the workers of the country. But in that case should not this be the time when the Government should tell the bankers of the country that this is not the occasion for paying a ransom for the money which they are to lend to the State.

If there are to be sacrifices, then those who live on rent, interest and profit should make their contribution just as well as the ordinary working class people of the country. The State, without which there can be no credit and no profit, is to pay a high ransom to the bankers for the money that is needed for housing and other social services. We need houses, but they cannot be built because we are unable to pay the high ransom the bankers are demanding. There are men and women unemployed throughout the country because we cannot get money from the bankers without a high ransom. We require money to develop the resources of the nation in various respects, but we are prevented from undertaking that development, because it is not economic to pay the price for loans which is demanded by the banks. These banks are using the nation's credit, but the nation has to pay dearly for the moneys to develop and finance these activities. It is necessary for the life of the people, and especially for the life of the workers that these amenities should be developed. I do not like this Budget. It is a half-hearted Budget. Its worst feature is the intimation conveyed by the Minister that the Government is going to permit prices to increase while setting its face against the workers having any increase in wages. That is the sort of thing which the workers will never accept, and the Minister who embarks on that course is going to cause more industrial strife in this country than any other Minister.

Would I be in order in asking one question? I am not going to make a speech, but just to ask a question. In the course of his Budget speech the Minister indicated under five heads the savings proposed to be made. Later on he states that he expects to get about £400,000. Would the Minister be able to segregate or divide that between the five different heads? I presume that before the general debate the Minister will amplify how, under each of these heads, he expects to get that £400,000.

There is one point on which, perhaps, the Minister could give an answer now. He has made a statement of his intention to borrow for the purpose of making good the fall in revenue, of a sum of £1,620,000. In so far as he has spoken of additional taxation and borrowing, he has confined himself to covering that amount——

How many speeches are we to have?

I am asking a question, and I will be very short. This is Supplementary Budget 1939. Is it No. 1 or No. 2 Supplementary Budget? In his Budget statement the Minister has confined himself to the fall in revenue of £1,620,000, but his speech conveys to the House that a large increase in expenditure over the expenditure already decided upon is to be undertaken. Are we to get a statement as to how that expenditure is going to be met? I put that question to the Minister for Finance. That is a matter on which the House would require information.

There has been a full answer to that in the Budget Statement.

Would the Minister in his reply state the reason for the arrangement of this Supplementary Budget before he received the final report of the Economic Committee which has been sitting?

These are general questions. I am putting Resolution No. 1.

Is that the Sugar Resolution?

That Financial Resolution is Income-Tax.

We have not received a copy of that Resolution.

Financial Resolution No. 1 relates to the proposal to increase the standard rate of income-tax for the reasons set out. It has been moved and is now available for debate. For the reasons set out in the speech of the Leader of the Opposition we propose to divide on each Financial Resolution imposing extra taxation. The procedure adopted has always been to facilitate the Minister on his Financial Resolutions, and to forbear from speaking at any length on the several Resolutions, the general debate being taken upon the last Resolution. In regard to most of the Financial Resolutions to-day, we propose to follow the usual procedure. It may, however, be necessary to depart from it in regard to one or two others. We do not propose to go into the merits of this income-tax proposal now, but for the general reasons laid down in the speech by the Leader of the Opposition we propose to challenge a division upon it, and to vote against it.

Are we to understand that we are not to-day following, in regard to the Resolutions in general, the procedure which has always been adopted here?

The Minister will remember that when questions were put to the Minister for Supplies in relation to the Government's policy in regard to sugar, he indicated to the Chair that he would not give any reply, but would intervene in the course of the evening and make a statement. It is assumed on this side of the House, though we have not had the courtesy of any information, that the Minister for Supplies intends to make that statement on the Financial Resolution dealing with the sugar duty, in which event members from this side of the House will reply. It is not intended to withhold from the Minister his Financial Resolutions. It is the intention of the Opposition to give him the resolutions in the usual way after the usual procedure, and to take the main debate on the final Resolution, but we reserve our right, in the special circumstances created by the Minister for Supplies, to spend some time over the Resolution which affects sugar taxation.

Is it not usual on every Resolution to ask a number of questions, and if necessary to divide on it? That has been the usual practice. I cannot follow the Tánaiste; I do not know what is the usual practice he has in mind when he suggests that we are departing from it.

It has never been the practice to make speeches on those Resolutions.

It has been the practice to get as much information as possible, but I will confess that I do not expect very much information or help from the Tánaiste.

The Minister for Finance has raised the question that speeches are not to be made on those Resolutions, but the Government are forcing us into the position of making speeches on some of those Resolutions, because the Minister for Supplies very definitely invites discussion of the whole sugar question on one of those Resolutions, instead of having a discussion on a motion upon which the net issue with regard to sugar might more reasonably and effectively be discussed.

It is not a matter of allowing anybody to do a certain thing; it is a matter of following a precedent.

Is there any precedent for this matter? When was a ruling of this kind asked for on a Supplementary Budget?

I am putting Resolution No. 1.

I should like to ask, in view of the fact which I have pointed out—that the financial provision which is now made in this Budget is only a provision in respect of an anticipated fall in the revenue already estimated, and that additional expenditure is being incurred on the Army and other services, which has not yet been provided for by any financial statement to the House—whether any guarantee can be given at this stage that Resolution No. 1 will in fact stand, and whether it can be guaranteed that in the presentation of any other financial measures to the House before 5th April next, it is not intended to change the proposal in Resolution No. 1 in respect of income-tax?

I am putting Resolution No. 1.

May we have an answer from the Minister on that point?

I am putting Financial Resolution No. 1 to the House.

Will you give an opportunity to the Minister to reply or to refuse to reply to the question put to him?

We are in Committee, Sir.

Let us not get into a hopeless tangle through a misunderstanding. It has always been the practice that, on this day, specific inquiries solely for the purpose of eliciting information are addressed to the Minister, and no general debate is initiated. If the position is taken up that every inquiry of a purely objective kind is to be treated as a challenge to-day, it means that we will end up in a hopeless tangle of misunderstanding, which may embarrass the conduct of business very considerably. There is nothing unusual in asking the Ministers questions, but there is something very unusual indeed in all the Ministers of the Cabinet taking example from the Minister for Supplies and, if I may lapse into the vernacular, telling members of this House to go to hell, because that is what it amounts to. Remember, if Parliament is to carry on, the rights of the Opposition must be recognised, and it is their right to force the Minister to disclose information by the process of question and answer. I know that Ministers can kick over the traces, and simply say they will not play; but, if they do, parliamentary procedure becomes impossible, and the Opposition is forced back on the method it has of attracting public attention to the Ministers' refusal to conform to normal parliamentary procedure. Surely, Ministers are not going to take up the position that they will answer no questions at all? We know that the Ministers have in reserve the guillotine and so forth, but we also know that we have certain constitutional rights, and will use them if we have got to, although we do not want to do so.

Deputy Mulcahy asked a question which I think I answered. I said it was answered in my statement to-day.

Can the Minister say on what page of the statement it was answered?

The Deputy has talked long enough, and should give somebody else a chance.

The talk is not evenly divided.

I talked for a fairly long time, I admit, but it was a very serious statement.

We want to get the Minister to talk a little more.

I replied to General Mulcahy by saying I had answered his question in the statement which I made in introducing the Budget. I stated in introducing the Budget that I hoped what I had outlined there would carry us through to the end of the financial year.

The Minister will understand my difficulty. When he says that we are going to get £1,600,000 less than was expected, and are going to make provision for that by borrowing, by additional taxation and by economies, and when he says in addition that there has been substantial expenditure over what was estimated, the Minister will understand my difficulty in wondering how that is going to be met, without any explicit reference from him on the point.

By the means fully set out in my statement.

That is by borrowing.

How can the Minister give any guess at what he will require to get him over this year, when he has not yet in his possession and cannot get for another two weeks the final report of the Economy Commission? What is the urgency for the introduction of this Supplementary Budget in advance of the receipt of the final report of that Commission? That is a fair question.

It is a fair question, but I think the answer ought to be obvious to the Deputy. If the Supplementary Budget were delayed any longer, what would we get out of the taxation this year?

You would not lose much in two weeks.

A very considerable amount.

I put a question to the Minister. Does he think that before the opening of the general discussion he will be able to give me that information—how the £400,000 is divided between the different headings? I presume he has it. Will he be able to give it?

I do not think so.

Is that enough for the Deputy? I said I do not think so.

He will not be able to give it or he will be unwilling to give it?

I have answered the Deputy's question.

On Resolution No. 1. So far as we are concerned we see this Budget as a whole, not merely as a series of proposals for the increase of taxation. A view has been expressed on behalf of the Party in connection with the Budget. It seems to us that in this Budget the Government not only fails to appreciate the problems confronting the country, and fails to offer any solution to those who are going to suffer most severely in the crisis through which the country is now passing, but definitely commits itself to a policy of trying to prevent the workers from securing any increase whatever in their standards of remuneration to compensate them for increases in prices which the Government will not prevent occurring, and we have taken the view that we will vote against all those proposals for increased taxation in view of that statement in the Budget.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 63; Níl, 46.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Fogarty, Patrick J.
  • Friel, John.
  • Fuller, Stephen.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Loughman, Francis.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McCann, John.
  • McDevitt, Henry A.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Meaney, Cornelius.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Mullen, Thomas.
  • Munnelly, John.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl

  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George C.
  • Benson, Earnest E.
  • Brasier, Brooke.
  • Broderick, William J.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Cole, John J.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Curran, Richard.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, John L.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Hannigan, Joseph.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Hurley, Jeremiah.
  • Keating, John.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Sullivan, John.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget M.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Ryan, Jeremiah.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Smith and Brady; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.

Might I make a suggestion? There is some likelihood of discussions on Resolution No. 2 and Resolution No. 3, dealing with sugar, and if we could leave these over, with the permission of the House, until we deal with the other Resolutions, before the General Resolution, it might be more satisfactory.

In certain circumstances we regard all these Resolutions as equally objectionable and unjustifiable, but in view of the fact that it may facilitate the Minister in disposing of the Resolution, which must be disposed of one way or another before the House adjourns to-day, we are prepared to fall in with the suggestion.

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