It is proposed to take Items 2 (Financial Motion), 3, (Pigs and Bacon Bill) and 4 (Finance (No. 2) Bill) as on the Order Paper. If business, as ordered, be completed by 12 o'clock, Private Deputies' Business will then be taken. I think that that is unlikely. I have been consulting the Minister for Agriculture as to how long he thought the Pigs and Bacon Bill would take. I was anxious to get the Second Stage of the Finance Bill, if possible, to-day. If the House does not complete the financial business by the usual hour, would Deputies agree to sit late in order to complete the business?
Business of the Dáil.
A considerable amount of accommodation has been given to the Government in regard to the Pigs and Bacon Bill. I do not know if the Minister is still pressing for all stages of that Bill next week.
I was hoping for that. The Second Stage is, of course, not completed yet.
We should be prepared to accommodate the Minister to the extent of finishing the Pigs and Bacon Bill to-day. If we confined ourselves to that for the moment, we might make some progress.
In that case, I shall have to give notice to sit late to try to finish the Finance Bill as well.
Mr. Morrissey
The Minister not only wants to take Private Deputies' time but to get additional time?
Yes.
Mr. Morrissey
Does the Tánaiste consider that it is quite fair to Private Members to be taking Private Members' time at this period of the year?
The business for this period of the year was upset on account of the financial measures that had to be introduced.
Mr. Morrissey
If this is to go on, you will be stultifying the whole position. The motion we discussed on Wednesday night in Private Members' time was last under discussion as far back as February. If the business is to be ordered in the way now suggested, this motion will not be finished by February next, not to mention all the other motions on the Order Paper.
I think the House will agree that it is necessary, in the ordinary way of business, that the financial measures should be got out of the way as soon as reasonably possible. We have had a good deal of discussion on the Budget Resolutions and on the Second Stage of the Finance Bill and we shall have another opportunity on the Committee Stage of that Bill.
I must say that the Tánaiste presents business to the House in a very extraordinary way. We came in here with the ordinary Order Paper in front of us and we understood that the Minister for Agriculture was particularly anxious to get the Pigs and Bacon Bill through in order that he might take steps to have certain changes effected by the beginning of the year. I understand that, subject to whatever discussion and criticism might be necessary, there was substantial understanding on the part of this Party that the Minister would be accommodated. There is no valid reason why discussion on the financial situation should be limited and, up to this moment, I heard no suggestion, good, bad or indifferent, that it would be necessary for members of the House to sit late this week to finish the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. From his knowledge of the situation and the ordinary progress of the financial business, the Tánaiste would, I think, find it quite impossible to explain to the House what the necessity is for keeping the House sitting late in order to deal with the financial business.
I will give notice later on in the day that the House sit late.
I characterise such a proposal as disgraceful. We will oppose it and leave as little as we can unsaid to criticise and comment on the Government's attitude in this matter. Do I understand, on a point of order, that a motion like that would have to be discussed and disposed of by 12 o'clock?
Yes.
Will the Tánaiste say at what time it is intended to move that motion?
I cannot say at the moment.
Is it that the Tánaiste is running away from a discussion on it? Will he move that motion now?
I think that remark is quite unworthy of the Deputy.
If, in an unexpected way and on the grounds that the financial business is urgent, the Tánaiste proposes—without giving previous notice to any Party in the House —that this House sit late to-day in order to deal with a financial matter, and simply withholds the moving of this motion until it can be taken without discussion by a vote of his Party, I do say that he is running away from any discussion, or from the necessity of putting any reasons before the House. It would depend entirely on a vote of his Party on the conducting of Parliamentary business of the House here, at a time when Deputies do not expect to have to sit late to discuss the question. I characterise it again as nothing but running away from a discussion.
The Deputy is, perhaps, more used to running away than I am. Anybody who knows the Deputy and myself is capable of deciding that.
Mr. Morrissey
That is a nice atmosphere to be introducing.
I did not introduce it; it is unworthy of the Deputy.
Therefore——
I am on my feet now. I wanted to be reasonable.
And, therefore, you tell us this now.
I am on my feet now. It seems impossible in these days to get any straight, definite answer out of the Opposition as to the business of the House, in the usual way.
When were we questioned about this, with the Whips?
It has been raised here. I have had to raise it here in the last few weeks—always in the House— instead of having that business done in the usual way; we do not get a definite answer. I think the House realises that this financial business is urgent. I do not want to stop discussion. Not at all. I do not want to restrict discussion; but though it is a matter that is bound to occupy a good deal of time, it is reasonable that it should be got through as quickly as possible. I would suggest—if the Deputy feels so strongly about sitting late to-day—that I would be prepared to sit here for the next ten days discussing it. I personally do not mind at all what criticisms are offered, but I suggest that, if the House agrees, we might meet on Tuesday and, if possible, take the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill on Thursday.
Mr. Morrissey
The Minister talks about the urgency of getting this Finance Bill through. What is the necessity for getting the Second Stage through to-day? What is the urgency? The Minister has not stated it. He talks about meeting on Tuesday and the difficulties of making arrangements. The whole of this difficulty arises from the Government's complete inability so to arrange business as to have it done in the proper way. We have members being brought up from the country for one day's sitting in the week—we had only two days last week. All this trouble and bother that comes in from time to time is due absolutely to the Government's incompetency and to their bungling in arranging the business of the House. There is no use in the Minister putting the blame on the Whips or on anybody else. We are not going to get any further by blaming the Whips on that side or on this side.
Or by telling people they are running away.
Mr. Morrissey
The Minister knows very well that the remark made by Deputy Mulcahy was not made in a personal way.
I would say it was.
Mr. Morrissey
The Minister immediately wanted to introduce the personal touch into it. This is a serious business; this passing of the Budget is a very serious matter for the country, and one which should not be rushed at the tail-end of the week. There is no reason why this Budget debate could not be resumed next week on Wednesday. I have no objection to sitting on Tuesday, but do object to the Government wasting public time and money through, as I say, their inability so to arrange the business of the House as to have it carried out in the ordinary way.
I would impress on the Tánaiste—though I think it quite unnecessary that I should impress it—that there was nothing personal when I talked about running away. I say that when a proposal is unexpectedly put before the House that it is going to sit late—after two o'clock—and when the attitude is taken up, or is suggested by the Tánaiste, that he is not going to put that motion before the House now and is not going to say when he is going to put that motion before the House, but that a vote is to be taken on it at 12 o'clock, then I say that it is running away from discussion. I want to leave that.
The Tánaiste said it is impossible to do business with the Opposition in the ordering of the business of the House. That comes to me as an astonishing statement. I have to say, for my part, that I have found the Parliamentary Secretary admirable to do business with. Whether he can say the same for me or not I do not know, but I would be surprised if he were not able to say the same thing—with this exception, that I decline to closure discussion in this House by any arrangement of any kind. I am prepared to help to shorten business and to get decisions taken within a reasonable time. That has been done even within the last week or fortnight, and satisfactorily done. I do not know that there is any reason for complaint of any kind by any Minister or even by the Tánaiste himself with regard to the way in which any Party in this House—though let us speak for ourselves—is discussing, deciding and declaring its intention with regard to the way of carrying on the business of the House. There is one thing alone that the Tánaiste can have any complaint about, and it is that this discussion of the Second Reading of the Finance Bill has not been closured. I think it is unwise to have a closure on a general discussion such as it is, in any way. I appreciate the suggested change of attitude on the part of the Tánaiste that we might sit on Tuesday, if the House is not prepared to sit late to finish this business.
Dáil to meet on Tuesday?
No, Sir. I say I would be prepared to sit on Tuesday. But we must be prepared to resist in any way the suggestion that, at short notice and without consultation of any kind, the House is asked to sit after 2 o'clock to-day. The Minister for Agriculture wants not only the Committee Stage but the Report Stage and the Final Stage of the Pigs and Bacon Bill next week. We have to some extent been persuaded that it might be necessary to give him these measures, but here we are asked not only to conclude the Second Stage of the Finance Bill but also to give the remaining stages next week.
The Committee Stage.
The Committee Stage of the Finance Bill.
Mr. Morrissey
That may not be got —even by sitting on Tuesday.
The Seanad has to sit.
Mr. Morrissey
The Committee Stage may not be got next week—even by sitting on Tuesday.
I suggest that it would be possible to have an arrangement made by which the House would sit on Tuesday and take the Committee Stage on Thursday.
On behalf of the Labour Party and in regard to the carrying out of arrangements and of agreements with the Whips, we could not have been concerned, because we were not asked. I wish to protest vehemently against the Government's unfair attempts to press this matter. They have even taken up Private Members' time so as to have an opportunity of rushing forward business. A glaring instance of that is provided to-day. There is a motion on the Order Paper since last February and at the present rate it apparently will be there until next February. I again protest vehemently against the proposal to sit late this afternoon in order to deal with the Finance Bill and enable the Government to continue its bungling of further business.
I do not think it is fair for Deputy Keyes to say that the Labour Party never was consulted. It would be true to say that each member of the Party is not consulted, but on all occasions some member is. It is very hard to know which one to consult, but on all occasions some one or two members are consulted on all such matters and in fact were consulted in regard to the matter now being discussed—to sit late to-day.
As Whip of the Labour Party, I am completely unaware of any discussion having taken place in connection with this matter.
I must say that I was not aware that Deputy Keyes was the Whip of the Labour Party.
The Parliamentary Secretary ought to know that.
Will Private Members' time be given to-day?
No.
Is it understood then that the House will sit on Tuesday next?
I do not understand that at all. I understand that the House is being asked to meet on Tuesday and, as one who is interested in trying to get the business of the House through, and in trying to order it in a reasonable way, I object to being asked here on Friday morning if we can meet on Tuesday. I do not object to being asked outside the House on Friday morning, if we can meet on that day.
I was trying to find Deputy Mulcahy last night but, unfortunately, I could not meet him.
I was not here.
I discussed with other members of his Party our anxiety to complete the business to-day. I did not announce that we intended to sit later than two o'clock, but I did say that it was the intention to take Private Members' time. There was no discussion as to whether we would meet on Tuesday or not, but I must say that if I had met Deputy Mulcahy I believe I would have made that suggestion to him.
Mr. Morrissey
Before this question of sitting on Tuesday is decided, I should like to get this matter clear. If the House decides to meet on Tuesday, to what extent is that going to facilitate the Minister with regard to his Finance Bill? I want to know, firstly, what is the extreme urgency of it, seeing that it is in full operation, and, secondly, to point out that if the House meets on Tuesday, the Minister cannot get his Committee Stage next week, unless by agreement of the House.
If the House agrees, you can do anything.
Mr. Morrissey
I quite agree, but the Minister is not going the best way about getting the House to agree.
He is not doing too badly.
I would remind the House that more than half an hour has already been spent in deciding what business is to be done. Tuesday, of course, is a normal sitting day. Deputies are aware of that.
Mr. Morrissey
But it has been suspended.
And we have been told that we would be meeting only one day in the week.
Let the Minister not start in now, or he will create pandemonium altogether.