Last night, Sir, on this Defence Estimate I got around to the question of A.R.P. and I was certainly surprised that some of the matters with which I had dealt about six weeks ago were raised again during this debate. I was particularly surprised because I found on the last occasion, to my surprise then also, that the Opposition seemed rather satisfied with the replies I gave them, and I did not think it would be necessary so soon again to explain what Government policy on the matter of A.R.P. was. Yesterday, in saying a few words on the general defence policy, I pointed out to the Dáil that I thought that, in the question of defence, military planning and policy was so interwoven that it was very difficult to go into any kind of detail without disclosing facts which it would not be wise from a military point of view to disclose, and I did suggest that it should be recognised that a wise reticence was necessary in such a matter as defence.
Dealing with this particular portion of the defence policy—A.R.P.—the opposite idea holds. A.R.P. cannot be any kind of success and cannot carry out the work they are intended to do except everybody concerned and affected has the fullest knowledge of what the proposals of A.R.P. are, why these proposals are made, and what is being done and is necessary to do in the matter. Now, I think it was Deputy Esmonde who said that the general public had not been informed as to what their duties were or what was their best mode of procedure in any particular emergency of this sort. I should like to point out to the Deputy that as long ago as, I think, last September, a booklet of instructions was issued all over this country, in any particular place which we called a scheduled area, which was a place that might be considered at least likely to be attacked. I do think that from that point of view a good deal of knowledge was given to the general public. The whole difficulty with A.R.P. is that nobody believes in their necessity. Possibly, that belief is correct, and I hope it is correct, but I do not think we are justified in sitting idly by, in view of the tremendous dangers that exist in the world to-day, or that we are justified in doing nothing to protect ourselves against such a possibility. In the eventuality which Deputy Hughes visualises as being possible, and in other eventualities which have been discussed by various members of the Opposition, I think it would be criminal folly on our part if we did not make such preparations as we could possibly make, consistent with utilising the greatest economy.
Last September I came along here into the Department of Defence to look after this particular matter, and I do confess that, when I was directed to take charge of the particular matter of A.R.P., I came to the Department of Defence as a scoffer: I came, I saw, but I did not concur. However, when I had talked with the various military officers and those who had been concerned in the matter of preparations, I began to get an altogether different slant on the subject of A.R.P., and I did consider that there was a grave necessity for our embarking on such a scheme. Now, as long ago as 1937, I think, Deputy O'Higgins, by question, raised this matter in the House, which showed that at that time the alert minds of the Opposition at least were thinking of the possibility of the need for such a scheme. At that time, Deputy O'Higgins was informed that the matter was under consideration and a scheme being formulated, and in 1937 and 1938 a sum of £1,000 was set aside in the Estimate for the purpose of initiating a scheme of A.R.P. Of that sum, in that year, only £85 17s. 4d. was spent. In the following year the amount set aside was £101,000, of which £48,921 was spent. In 1939-40, £94,594 was set aside and £90,635 was spent. The total amount spent was £139,641 17s. 4d. This year we are asking you to vote for us the sum of £116,855.
Some Deputies here have suggested that the Government acted in a panicky fashion in September, 1939. As far as we were concerned there was no panic but there was a good deal of anxiety throughout the country which was mirrored in the correspondence we received at our headquarters. There was quite a lot of anxiety in regard to air raids and in regard to gas attacks and I think our actions tended very much towards allaying that panic and quietening the nerves of the people. I have so little to say on this matter, having said it all before six weeks ago, that I find it very difficult to discuss it in the way I would like.
We will take the question of shelters, particularly trench shelters. I do not like trenches. I never liked them but I did not see any way of avoiding the making of trenches. A couple of years ago, about 1938, a military critic giving a lecture in London said that military science before a war seemed to be an exact science, like astronomy, but after the war it looked like astrology. Captain Liddel-Hart, a very famous critic, commented on that that it was very hard on astrology. That is true. No matter how well you plan, how much you think, how interested you are, conditions that obtain when a war starts may make a complete change of plan necessary and may make obsolete the things that you have been thinking and doing before the emergency arose. As I say, I never did like trenches and do not like them now, but it was necessary that trench shelters should be made in the areas where housing conditions were such as to create serious danger to the inhabitants of those areas in the event of attack. I want to insist that I do not consider the trench shelter as an ideal air-raid shelter at all. I do not think that we should proceed any further with the system of trench shelters and we have decided that we will not so proceed. I had a talk with Deputy Alderman Byrne a few months ago and he pointed out to me that, if possible, the various parks where trenches had been dug should be put into such a condition that they could be utilised as far as possible as children's playgrounds, etc. I agree with Deputy Alderman Byrne. The carrying out of that work was very much delayed by the timber strike and also by the corporation employees' strike but now we are getting that work under way and I think the whole thing will be cleared up immediately.
As against trench shelters there is also the question of basement shelters. There is quite a lot of basement shelter that could be made available here in Dublin and I think it is a much more satisfactory type of shelter than the trench shelter. This whole scheme of A.R.P. was entered into after a study of what had been done in any other country, after a reading of practically every manual that bore on the question and after watching what the effects of air raids were in any of the wars that have been fought recently. I think there is sufficient basement shelter in Dublin to supply whatever we need in the way of shelter. Speaking of this some time ago here Deputy Dillon asked how did we propose to do any proppings and strutting in the basements and I pointed out that any such thing would have to be done in a very rough fashion. But even at that, weighing up the likelihood of an air-raid here against the cost of a completely or almost completely perfect system of shelters, I came to the conclusion that in view of what had happened in air-raids elsewhere we might take a gamble even against turning basements into air-raid shelters by way of struttings and proppings because my understanding of the results of air-raids—and heavy air-raids—in towns of the type of Dublin has been that 90 per cent. of the casualties have been of those caught in the open and only 10 per cent. of the casualties have occurred to people who have had any kind of shelter. Even at that, the making of the trench shelters is defensible in the areas where they have been made. The first was made in Mountjoy Square. The houses there are fourstorey houses and old houses. The load of the population in those houses is heavy and I do think that the concussion and suction caused by a H.E. bomb would shake all those buildings like a house of cards. In the ordinary houses around the town I think the same necessity does not arise. Of course, Deputy Mulcahy mentioned Merrion Square. There is quite a number of faulty houses, not exactly in the square, but in the streets and lanes around the square and I do think that it was necessary to do in relation to trench shelter the things we have done and I do not think we would be justified in going further than completing those trenches.
With regard to basements, it is necessary, according to the Act, to serve a designation notice on any person whose premises it is proposed to take over for the purpose of the scheme. We have refrained from designating any place, no matter how suitable, because such designation is an interference with business and might possibly depreciate the property so designated; but I think that in the case of an air-raid, or an emergency position, we ought to be entitled to ask every householder to place his house as a shelter at our disposal for those people caught in the open. I do not know whether this could best be done by way of an appeal to citizens or by way of an order—I prefer the appeal— but I know that the response to such an appeal, in the event of an air-raid, might result in undesirable happenings. An air-raid in itself, however, is an undesirable happening and I think we ought to be free to choose the least of any evils that may exist.
I do not think an air-raid here is very probable, but it is not by any means an impossibility. Things have happened, as Deputy Esmonde pointed out a few nights ago, which are incredible, and these could very easily happen to us. We have to consider, as against that, the tremendous amount of money that would have to be spent in providing a proper service, and I do not think that, from any point of view, we would be justified in providing all the money needed to make a perfect service. Also, if there is an air raid on Ireland, it is more than likely that the place where it will take place is Dublin, where all our centres of trade are and where our railway net-works and transport services are. Practically 95 per cent. of our attention has been devoted to Dublin. The Dublin area has been divided into nine districts, and services of the necessary kind have been organised inside those districts. We have shelters, rescue and demolition services, medical services and fire-fighting services, including training and equipment.
I pointed out here, before, that one of the most necessary services we could have is a fire-fighting service. Money spent on such a service is money spent on something which has a permanent benefit and, therefore, there is every justification for a thorough organisation of a fire-fighting service. We have spent quite a lot of money on pumps, equipment and training in this respect and, in the same way, we have spent a good deal of money on medical services. With regard to our rescue and demolition service, I have to say that the building employers in Dublin have done more in that matter than we, ourselves, have done, and as well as the building trade employers, the employees in the building trade have very generously placed their services at our disposal. Of the money spent last year, £90,635, a sum of £11,000 was given as a grant to the Dublin Corporation. That was not the full amount of the grant due to them, but the balance of the grant due will be paid whenever the audited accounts are ready.
I have a note here with regard to respirators. The question of the distribution of respirators was raised by Deputy Dillon. These respirators are packed in sealed tins filled with nitrogen for the purpose of preservation. They are articles which could be damaged and until there is a possibility of their being needed, it is better to have them packed in the sealed tins in proper stores. We have them in one of the barracks in Dublin, and I have arranged with the Dublin Corporation to set up assembly and distribution dépôts throughout the various city areas, so that, if necessary at any time, they can be rapidly distributed. We have also carried out the training of a more than adequate staff, capable of assembling these quickly and instructing other people in their use.
Here again is another debatable question: whether we were wise in purchasing gas-masks. It looks good military practice, if you have to come a long distance with a plane, to bring with you the weapon which is most destructive, and our information is that, weight for weight, the high explosive shell is much more destructive than anything else. Because of that, I think we are unlikely to have to deal with a gas attack; but one never knows, and the panic and nervousness of the people, as indicated by the correspondence in our files, would justify, even from the purely psychological point of view, the purchase of the gas-masks in order to allay that nervousness and to control the people's fears. We paid a sum of £35,000 this year for respirators. I am against the purchase of any more respirators. I think we have plenty for any purpose for which they are likely to be used. We paid this year £19,000 for additional fire-fighting apparatus. We paid for special types of respirators used by fire-fighters in particular cases, such as demolition work, a sum of £1,500. We paid £5,000 for steel helmets, £14,000 for protective clothing, and miscellaneous training cost £5,000.
I believe we ought to observe the utmost economy financially in the matter of A.R.P. schemes. When I entered the Department of Defence to look into this matter I came in as an unbeliever, but I was convinced from what I learned from military officers and others that there was really a need for putting these schemes into operation. I would like Deputies to examine the matter for themselves and try to satisfy themselves whether an A.R.P. scheme is necessary and how far it is necessary. I should like Deputies on all sides of the House to give us their assistance in trying to educate the public to any possible danger there may be in this connection. The trouble with A.R.P. is that you cannot build up a scheme successfully if there are different sections out to boycott it and if the people generally do not take an interest in the matter of A.R.P. I do not believe in spending a tremendous amount of money, but I do believe that some scheme is necessary and I would ask the support of the House in the matter.