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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Jun 1940

Vol. 80 No. 13

Supplementary Estimate. - Vote 3—Department of the Taoiseach.

Tairgim:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £9,677 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1941, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Roinn an Taoisigh (Uimh. 16 de 1924; Uimh. 40 de 1937; agus Uimh. 38 de 1938).

That a sum not exceeding £9,677 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of the Taoiseach (No. 16 of 1924; No. 40 of 1937; and No. 38 of 1938).

Probably there was never a time when there was greater need of sane and serious thought than there is at the present time but, even in this grave hour, we have to maintain our right of independent criticism. We shall exercise that right with a full sense of the responsibility placed upon all of us. I have been listening to speeches, and I have read the speeches of many members of the Government on the question of the better defence of the country. So far, these speakers have failed to give expression to any desire to have a better economic system. I believe that it is equally important to consider every aspect of the economic and social organisation under which we live and to see what should be altered and expanded to meet the changing circumstances of the times. National unity is a very empty thing if we have not a common effort for the common good. I am also satisfied that national defence and national freedom will not survive and cannot survive while masses of our people are undernourished, badly housed and are the helpless victims of the profit-making movement. I listened to speeches delivered yesterday and I have seen big headlines in the papers this morning to a speech delivered by a Deputy yesterday about the dangers threatening the country. I am not at all satisfied that we are sufficiently frank with the people. I want to say to the Taoiseach that we are not taking the people sufficiently into our confidence. I have read speeches of Ministers during the week telling us that, if certain people invade this country, it will encourage others to invade it, forgetting, evidently, that we have an invader in the country already. Our people are confused. What, they ask, is all the excitement about? Of whom are we really afraid? Deputy Dillon told us yesterday that we are being asked to do to the invader what Denmark did. He did not indicate the people who made that request. I do not think it is fair to scare our people with those statements. I am satisfied that our people are prepared to make very great sacrifices, to make great changes in any emergency that may arise. There are many people in our country prepared to make sacrifices; they made them in the past and they will make them again. I should like to see those people taken a little more into the confidence of the Government.

I find that there is great confusion at the moment among good Irishmen— and, when I say good Irishmen, I mean men who made sacrifices, perhaps not so much in the open field with the gun; but they have made many sacrifices and they are prepared to make more. I find that there is too much make-believe. We are told we are going to be invaded by some enemy. I do not know whether we are afraid to admit it or suppress it or hurt the feelings of some of the big countries. I want to emphasise that there is already an invasion of our country and that invasion is a bigger danger in the way of drawing some other country to invade our land than anything else. I do not like to see our people scared into thinking that we are within hours or days of being invaded.

I am quite satisfied that the position is serious, and it is because of that I am speaking in this fashion. I believe that we have not that loyalty and co-operation from the masses of the people that we ought to have. I refer now to the plain people who are hard hit. If you are talking about national defence, you must take into consideration supplying the people with food and clothing and shelter and taking them into your confidence. That would be a much more effective defence than talking vaguely, confusing the people's minds, and neglecting to inspire the necessary confidence in them. It is quite probable that our Ministers are a bit too far away from the people to realise what they are talking or thinking about.

We have heard a lot of vague talk about the indifference of the people as to what nation is likely to invade us. I have heard many views expressed by good, honest people, who are prepared to fight for their freedom and stand against any invader. Their minds are confused and they are unable to express themselves clearly because of the vagueness that is going on. We have had speeches from Ministers and Deputies about the danger of invasion. We should be more frank in our statements, because the confusion that exists might be more dangerous than anything else. I suggest to the Taoiseach that our national defence relies to a great extent on supporting our people in periods of discomfort and helping them in some progressive economic effort. We are not asking for increased doles—I hate the word "dole". What we want to do is to try to capture the honesty and loyalty of the people who are prepared to fight for us in any emergency.

We talk a lot about fifth columnists. I am inclined to say that there are certain fifth columnists already in this country, and they are much more serious than some of the fifth columnists our people talk about. We should be more frank and definite in our statements about the invasion of the country. I do not want any Minister to tell us that if one country invades our land another country might be tempted to do the same. There is already an invasion of our country, and we should be frank enough to admit it. The people who talk about the freedom of small nations should withdraw from this country.

During my 17 or 18 years experience in this House I cannot recollect any previous occasion when the Estimates for Government Departments were passed in such a short time. I am sure the Government will recognise that that is due to the fact that in the present delicate international situation consideration of a kind never before extended to any Government here has been given. I am sure the Government will recognise that the adoption of these Estimates in such a short time will make it possible for Ministers to give more attention to the work of their Departments than they have been able to give in other years. The necessity for giving more personal attention to departmental adminstration is apparent, and I hope the time saved in connection with the Estimates will give Ministers an opportunity to deal with the present problems that must be dealt with, apart from those connected with the international situation.

The internal position of this country is not satisfactory, and I am sure the Taoiseach will not say it is. The official figures would not enable him to say that the position, from the point of view of employment or unemployment, is better this year than it was last year, or two or three years ago. The discussion of the Estimates is the only opportunity members of Opposition Parties get to raise grievances which have not been dealt with in the ordinary departmental way. I have raised matters here which I could not get settled through the medium of correspondence. I hardly ever raise a matter here that I have not previously put to a Department in the course of correspondence.

There is a genuine need for the speeding up of the administration of several Government Departments. We have two or three thousand more civil servants at our disposal for that purpose than we had ten or 12 years ago. I hope the facility given by Opposition Deputies here in enabling the discussions on the Estimates to be completed in such a short time will be properly appreciated by the Government and that representations made by Opposition Deputies will be more closely attended to and dealt with more expeditiously than similar matters were in the past. I trust that is not an unfair request to make. I have indicated that Ministers will have more time at their disposal to deal with Government matters, and matters affecting their own Departments.

I would like to hear from the Taoiseach that the internal position of the country would be reviewed and dealt with two or three times a week by a Cabinet sub-committee. The necessity for doing so exists in my opinion. I would like to see the position in regard to unemployment, and the reactions of the international situation, looked into by certain selected members of the Cabinet. If that cannot be done, the only other way that these important matters can be dealt with is by the establishment of an economic council. I do not want to provoke a discussion on that in the short time at my disposal. For instance, I would like to feel that the financial position of this country, arising out of the passage recently of legislation in a neighbouring country, which is bound to have reactions here, was receiving the careful attention of Cabinet Ministers or departmental experts. Nobody in this House or outside of it can foresee the consequences of the present international situation, and of its reactions, from a financial point of view, on the people of this State, even though we are not actually engaged in hostilities.

We set up a Banking Commission six years ago to guide our Government on matters of internal financial policy. I hope that the recommendations in the Minority and Majority Reports of that commission will be reviewed and studied, as the situation develops. We do not know what the Government policy is arising out of the report of that Banking Commission. Other commissions have been set up here, the reports of which have been made available to the Government, or are in course of preparation. These reports have a bearing on big questions like transport and drainage, matters that are bound to have an effect on our unemployment situation. I would like to have it from the Taoiseach that the reports of these very important commissions are being studied, and that action will be taken, where action is necessary, arising out of their reactions on the international position.

There is one other matter of very serious and pressing importance that I want to refer to. It is the question of the control of the prices of the necessaries of life. I want to say that I am thoroughly dissatisfied with the failure of the Government to use the powers which they possess to control the prices of the necessaries of life. It would be far better to have this so-called Prices Commission abolished than allow it to remain in existence and carry on, as it has been carrying on, ineffectively, for some time past. The policy of the Government is to keep down the rate of wages so far as it affects their own State employees, and to use their influence to keep down wages wherever their influence can be exercised in that direction. That policy could be justified if, on the other hand, they paid as much attention to controlling the prices of the necessaries of life. Ministers, as well as members of the House who have any knowledge of the conditions that prevail in the City of Dublin, know how costly the ordinary commodities are, and what an increase in the price of them has taken place since the outbreak of war. Would any farmer Deputy, on any side of the House, get up and say that people who charge 6d. a head for cabbage in the City of Dublin are justified in doing so? I can prove that that price has been charged to poor people in the City of Dublin, while at the same time I know that the farmers in the County Dublin who produce and sell that cabbage through the Dublin market are getting less than a 1d. per head for it. That is the kind of activity that has got to be controlled in this city and through the country. Otherwise, there will be a reaction that will possibly have very serious consequences. Other commodities could be mentioned, the prices of which may not have been increased as much as the price of vegetables, and in respect of which profiteering has not been carried on to the same extent. I want an assurance from the Taoiseach that these matters, affecting the daily lives of our people, will be dealt with more effectively than they have been since the outbreak of war.

I said that there was delay in dealing with certain departmental matters which is the cause of unnecessary correspondence, so far as Deputies from all Parties are concerned. I need only quote the undue delay and the irritating way in which claims for military service pensions are being dealt with. The Taoiseach, and I quite agree with him, appealed to the people of this State to increase three-fold, if possible, the output of turf as compared with what it was last year. Does he know that the failure of the Land Commission to acquire and divide bogs is the explanation of the limited production of turf in the country? Does he know, for instance, that most of our bogs in the midland areas are owned by landlords, or bog owners, who live on the letting of turf, and that, therefore the people who are anxious to increase the production of turf for sale in our provincial towns cannot do so? They cannot do so because the Land Commission is too lazy to do its own job, or does it in such a way as to prevent the appeal made by the Taoiseach being responded to in a proper manner. I would ask the Taoiseach to look into the working of some of the Government Departments, to speed up administration, and to keep a careful and watchful eye over the internal situation in the country.

I want to raise a few matters on this Vote.

The Deputy is quite in order in doing so, but I would remind him that the question must be put before nine o'clock. It is now ten minutes to nine.

I will not keep the House long.

The Deputy is entitled to proceed, but the Minister will have little time in which to reply.

There are one or two matters that I want to draw attention to. The first is the necessity for ship repairing facilities in Cork Harbour in connection with the dockyard either at Haulbowline, Rushbrooke or some other part of the harbour. The necessity for that is apparent to anybody who knows anything about the accommodation in Cork Harbour, and the facilities there for bringing in ships. There are no facilities for doing repairs, and that is a very keenly felt want in the area. I would also like to raise generally the question of a mercantile marine. The necessity for that is all the greater now that freights and freightage charges are so excessive. I do not think it is too late, even now, to set about the purchase of some ships in which the commodities required here could be transported. The expenditure would, I think, repay itself because of the very high freights that are now being charged for the carriage of goods. Perhaps the Taoiseach, in his capacity as head of the Government, would seriously look into that, and let the House and the country know what are the chances for such an undertaking. These are the only matters I want to raise.

I do not understand what Deputy Hickey has been talking about. He says that we are keeping the country in the dark. There is not any intelligent person in the country who does not know the situation as well as I do.

I said that the statements were vague—not that you were keeping the country in the dark.

Can I be a prophet? Can the people in Switzerland say what is going to happen to them, or can the people in Sweden say? The fact is that we are a small country, and that it may suit one of the belligerents to attack us. The simple question for us is to put ourselves in such a position of defence as will make the attack a costly affair: if all goes to all to put ourselves in the position of being able to defend our liberties as best we can. Is not that clear enough? The Deputy says "predict for us definitely what is going to happen".

Of whom are we afraid?

Oh, anyone who wants to get an excuse can say that. What would have happened the people in Switzerland if somebody were to get up there and say: "The Government is vague; it does not tell us whether we are going to be attacked from the north, south, east or west; we want to know who is to attack us"? What would be the present position of the people in Switzerland if the people there had been talking like that? The fact is that the people in Switzerland have known for years that though they are in a position of neutrality, yet they must protect themselves by spending their resources in getting their man-power into a position to protect them. They are in the position in which they are to-day, because they took those measures in time. Nobody in Switzerland said: "We will not take any measures against A, but we will take measures against B and C." The Swiss people are in the position in which they are to-day simply because they are well armed, and are determined to defend their neutrality against all comers. They would not be in that position now if they had a section of their people saying: "I am interested in one country; you are interested in another country and you in a third." Because we cannot make up our minds as to which particular country is going to attack us, then we are to do nothing. Is that the position?

Nobody who does not wilfully blind himself can say that we are well out of the war zone, or that we can be sure that it would not suit any of the belligerents to interfere with the liberties which we claim to be ours. These are liberties which we can only hold if we are prepared to defend them. How can I make it clearer? I am not a prophet. Neither can I try to hide the fact that the whole national territory is not under the control of this Government. That is not the way to look at the problem. Partition did not happen since the war began. It exists, and we have to try to get rid of it, but we are not going to get rid of it by losing the independence we have here, or by stupidly refusing to take proper measures to defend ourselves.

Those who were here 20 or 25 years ago, and those old enough to know the efforts made to secure the freedom we have, will appreciate what I am saying. The freedom we have was not taken as the final ultimate thing, but as a basis to get the freedom of the whole country. Are we to keep that now? Because I do not tell from what direction we are going to be attacked, the Deputy complains. The fact is that we are going to put ourselves in a position to meet the attack from whatever quarter it may come. Those of us who have to choose a policy or to adopt the particular measures to be taken, have to judge as best we can how we are to meet the attack from any quarter, and to deal with it. We will meet the attack from any particular quarter, and especially from where it is most expected and most likely to come. I am afraid I cannot go more fully into the matter. If there is anybody who still wants to go on saying it is vague and indefinite, and that it is not going to happen in this country, I can only say this: that last September, when the war broke out, I was convinced that we would require to build up our forces if we were to keep ourselves free and to keep our country safe from the ravages of war. At that time I had only an opinion. But now I say, look at the map of Europe to-day and see what is happening there, and see what part our island might play, and then ask ourselves if there is no reason for anxiety and if there is no reason to get ourselves into a state of defence with all possible speed.

With regard to the question of the publication of certain matters, it would be very much better if Deputies were to come to me or some other responsible person and make private inquiries. They could approach those members of their own Parties who are taking part in the Defence Conference. But the person who uses the privileges of this House to talk publicly about certain matters is not acting in the best interests of the country.

With regard to the economic side I want to tell Deputies that they cannot feel any more than I and other members of the Government do about these questions of social and economic difficulties that have arisen in our time. These are difficulties that each and every country in the world have been baffled with, and there has been no definite solution anywhere except a solution which brings evils of another kind. We have been trying to deal with these economic questions by building up industries. Since this war began it was obvious that our difficulties would increase sevenfold. Our whole trade situation may be upset a great deal more than it is. Naturally the Government are considering by what methods we can tide our people over these circumstances. Our economic side is part of our national defence, and we have to attend to it from day to day.

Vote put and agreed to.
The Dáil went out of Committee.
Supplementary Vote 50 (Reformatory and Industrial Schools) reported and Report agreed to.
Main Estimates Nos. 1 to 70 reported. Report Stage fixed for Wednesday, 12th June, 1940.
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