I move that leave be granted to introduce the following Supplementary and Additional Estimates for the services of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, namely:—
Vote Nos.:—52 (Lands), 71 (Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies).
Supplementary and Additional Estimates.
Question put and agreed to.
If there is no objection, I would like to have these Estimates taken to-day.
I do not think there is any necessity for taking Vote 71 now.
There is this necessity, that we have set up this Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, and, I am afraid, they cannot proceed with their work until money is made available by the Dáil. As this is the beginning of the academic year, I would like to be in a position to let them go ahead. It would be of the greatest assistance if I could get the Estimate to-day.
It is absurd to say that they cannot go ahead with their work until money is voted. This Estimate was not circulated until just now.
Perhaps the House would be prepared to take this Estimate when the two Bills ordered for to-day are disposed of.
Yes, when the rest of the business is finished.
This sort of thing should not be done. The Government get facilities and they want more. They are prepared to look for everything they can possibly get and to give nothing. This Estimate should not be taken for a fortnight or three weeks.
I do not wish to enter into any controversy on this, but we had long discussions in this House and in the Seanad on this measure, and it is really a question now of providing money to implement the intentions of the Legislature.
It is really because there was so much discussion on the measure that we think the consideration of the Estimate should be left over so that Deputies may have an opportunity of asking questions and of getting further information. The consideration of this Estimate affords them the only opportunity they have of doing that. To defer its consideration will not make the slightest difficulty so far as the progress of the institute is concerned. If it did, what on earth have the people responsible for the presentation of the Estimate been doing since this particular measure was passed by the Oireachtas?
A good deal of attention has been given to the matter. The head of the Government himself has been closely interested in it, and has been giving a great deal of attention to the details. It was a new scheme and legislation had to be drafted. Since the passing of the legislation, a number of orders have had to be drafted, so that, apart from the technical questions which have arisen in order to determine what line these orders were to take, there was the question of the actual drafting of the orders.
I am prepared to accept it that there are reasons why there would be delay in the presentation of the Estimate. The very fact that there were reasons for delay in the presentation of the Estimate, since the legislation was passed, really emphasises the point that we are making: that consideration of the Estimate should be deferred so that Deputies will have the opportunity of asking such questions as may seem proper to them. I think the Minister ought to agree to our suggestion not to take the Estimate until the next day the House meets.
The Taoiseach is here now. He may not be aware that objection has been made to the taking of this Estimate until the 6th November.
I am sure the Minister for Education has already pointed out that the reason for this Estimate is that, until the money is voted by the House, we cannot make even tentative arrangements with regard to buildings, and so on. We cannot proceed to appoint professors. In fact, we can do nothing until there is authority from the House to spend money Everything of a preliminary character that could be done has, I think, been done. The academic year is now beginning, and if there is a question of appointing professors, every week that passes means an inconvenience. For example, if a professor of University College, Dublin, were to be appointed, it would mean that students would have been receiving lectures from him for some weeks and that a new professor would then have to be appointed. I had hoped that we would have been able to complete the preliminary work so as to bring in this Estimate at the beginning of October. I do ask, the House to be indulgent and, if the Opposition so desire, I should be prepared to have consideration of the Estimate postponed to a later hour this evening, but to delay its passing for three weeks would be a considerable disadvantage.
I do not appreciate the difficulty as to getting ahead with the work before the money is provided, because I think the Taoiseach has satisfied himself that the money will be provided. If the Taoiseach presses for the passage of this Estimate and says that it is necessary to have it now, I shall withdraw any objection I personally have to consideration of it being proceeded with, but I suggest that as there has been admitted delay in the presentation of the Estimate—it is an astonishing thing to be given an Estimate to-day and asked to pass it on the spot without a more formal statement on its introduction—if between now and the 6th November representations are made by persons interested in the matter that there are points they would like to raise and discuss, the Taoiseach should be prepared, on request made on reasonable grounds, to introduce a Token Estimate on the 6th November so that these points should be cleared up.
The Deputy will appreciate that it is not desirable that details in regard to the working of the schools which would involve the mentioning of the names of persons should be discussed in the Dáil or Seanad. The intention is that, ultimately, these Votes should be dealt with more or less as the University Vote is dealt with, but that cannot be done for a year or two—during the experimental stage. I think it is right that the House should have an opportunity of considering the Estimate much more fully than it would be possible to do in the time available to-day. There would, I think, be no difficulty as regards the proposal to introduce a Token Vote of £10. If it is regarded as the usual parliamentary practice in such cases to bring in a Token Vote, even though it may not be required, then I shall do so. It would be much more regular to have the Estimate passed and to have the authority of the Dáil before incurring any expense than to proceed before the Estimate is passed. An opportunity will be given to the Dáil, if not by way of Token Vote, then by some other means, to discuss the finances to be provided for the Institute. The only question is one of procedure.
This Estimate was submitted since we came into the House. What sum of money is it proposed to spend between to-day and this day three weeks? The professors will not be paid every day.
We have to enter into commitments.
I know that. That is in the Bill. But what money will have to be disbursed between to-day and this day three weeks?
There may be no actual disbursements save in respect of furniture, but it will be necessary to enter into commitments which the Exchequer will have to meet. I think that it is inadvisable to do that without the authority of the Dáil.
Apparently, that was not considered in time to afford an opportunity of examining this Estimate. It would have been possible to vote moneys from the Contingency Fund. We are asked to pass this Vote to-day although it is not possible to point to a single penny which may have to be spent within the next three weeks. The case is a very weak one.
I do not want to argue as to the weakness of the case because it is quite obvious that the moment we employ anybody or make contracts of any kind we are, in effect, spending money. Objection can be raised that sufficient notice has not been given, but there are three bodies concerned, and if you enter into commitments before the Dáil authorises the expenditure of money, you are taking a certain amount of risk and, perhaps, not treating the Dáil properly. Complaint could be made that we had not treated the Dáil properly if we entered into commitments before receiving the authority of the Dáil to do so. If the Dáil were meeting next week we could, of course, take the Estimate then.
Why not meet next week to deal with it?
It would be very inconvenient but, if necessary, we shall do so.
We now see the type of discussion we have had on the Estimate as brought forward in this way. I should have expected that, on the presentation of the Estimate, a complete statement would have been made of the appointments made to the institute and as to the place where the school of Celtic studies and the school of theoretical physics was to be set up. I think that some informed piece of information should have been given us as to the lines of work.
I was under the impression that the Opposition were unwilling to take the Estimate to-day. I have no objection whatever to making a statement now, whether the Vote is taken now or not. The Vote is required to provide the expenses to be incurred before the end of the present financial year——
Are we proceeding to deal with the Estimate now? I made a suggestion as to a token vote. All I ask is that, if between now and the 6th November, people who would have been entitled to intervene on this Estimate for the purpose of eliciting information desire to have that information, a token vote will, if they make representations, be introduced on the 6th November to afford them the necessary opportunity. That would be a simpler way of getting rid of people who want information than the general discussion suggested by the Taoiseach.
If there is nothing in the procedure against it, I am quite satisfied.
Then we withdraw opposition to taking Vote 71 to-day.