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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Oct 1940

Vol. 81 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Bill, 1940—Second Stage.

I move that the Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Bill, 1940, be now read a Second Time. The principal provisions of this Bill are contained in Sections 2, 3 and 4. These sections, respectively, provide additional advances to the Electricity Supply Board to cover its estimated capital requirements to the 31st March, 1942, confirm that the board has power to erect electric generating stations, using peat as fuel, and make provision for the investment of the board's reserves.

Section 2 amends Section 5 (1) of the Liffey Reservoir Act of 1936, so as to raise the limit of advances to the board, as authorised by Section 3 of the Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Act of 1931, from £6,259,000 to £10,259,000. The purposes for which the additional £4,000,000 are required have been detailed in the memorandum which I have circulated. It will be noted that among these is the erection of a peat-fuelled generating station near Portarlington and adjacent to the Clonsast Bog, against which a sum of £800,000 is provided. Some doubts have been expressed as to the board's powers under existing statutes to erect such a station. Section 3 of the Bill clarifies the position in that regard.

Reverting again to Section 2, the additional advances proposed include a sum of £280,000 in respect of the estimated increased cost of the Liffey hydro-electric scheme, making the cost of that scheme £784,690, as against £503,350 originally intended. This increase is due mainly to the enlargement of the generating plant, which is now to be 34 M.W. instead of 23 M.W. as originally budgeted for. Owing to the accelerating rate of increase in the load development as compared with the assumptions upon which the experts' report of 1935 was based, it was decided to instal two sets of 15 M.W. each at Poulaphouca Falls in addition to the 4 M.W. set at Golden Falls. This increase in the size of the generating plant, it is expected, will eventually result in some saving in the total steam plant capacity requirements. It is understood also that it renders the Liffey installation more valuable as a peak load station. Apart from the increase in the capacity of the plant, however, the cost of materials and other electrical equipment has risen, and there has also been a rise in labour costs. According to the information supplied by the Board, the increases are applicable, broadly, to the following sections of work. First of all, the cost of the dam at Poulaphouca, for which the original estimate was £232,050, has gone up to £320,450, an increase of £88,400. The cost of the bridges, which are to replace those which have been submerged or otherwise destroyed, has gone up from £79,600 to £110,190, an increase of £30,590. The mechanical equipment on Poulaphouca Dam, which was to cost £19,650, is, in fact, expected to cost £38,190, or £18,540 more than was originally provided for. The cost of roads in the reservoir area has increased from £12,300 to £18,360, and the provision for the mechanical and electrical equipment of stations and for transmission lines and other plant has had to be increased from £159,750 to £297,500, an increase of £137,750, making a total increase of £281,000, which has been rounded off to £280,000.

The remaining capital items of importance included in the financial provision which the Bill proposes include an additional 20 M.W. set at the Pigeon House, an increase in transformer capacity at Ardnacrusha, new 110 K.V. lines between Dublin and Cork, via Waterford, and Carrick-on-Shannon to Dundalk, together with new 110 K.V. stations at Waterford and Dundalk. The bulk of this work has already been completed. Expenditure has also been incurred on the 38 K.V. and the 10 K.V. system, strengthening mains and extending stations to handle the increase in load and on new high tension substations and mains. Owing to the continued growth in the number of consumers, provision is also being made for a substantial sum for extensions to consumers and for the development of new areas. The sum of £4,000,000 includes, in addition, provision for the increased actual cost of works which were provided for in previous legislation, in those cases in which, owing to rises in cost of materials and labour, the original estimates have been exceeded.

In justification of the considerable increase in capital expenditure by the board, I may point out that the number of units sold has risen from 187,015,590 in 1935-36 to 318,551,656 in 1939-40, and the revenue from the sales of energy has likewise risen from £1,429,888 in 1935-36 to £1,946,310 in 1939-40. Over this period the board has been able to make adequate provision for depreciation, and last year commenced to repay to the Minister for Finance the advances which it secured from the Exchequer. The expansion in the number of consumers and their demands are being well maintained, even in the present difficult period.

Section 4 of the Bill, as I have already mentioned, is designed to give the board power to invest its reserve funds in such securities as the Minister for Finance may approve from time to time. As matters stand, the board has no powers in this regard, and it is desirable that permanent statutory provision should be made for the reserve investment.

Section 5 proposes to amend sub-section (1) of Section 98 of the Electricity Supply Act of 1927. The sub-section in question empowers the board to lop or cut trees, as may be necessary for the proper maintenance of a supply line already erected. The board has made representations that it should have the power to lop or cut trees during the survey, erection or laying of lines. The proposed amendment will give this power, accordingly, and, it is hoped, will enable the board to carry out its overhead transmission and distribution programme more efficiently.

We may now turn to Section 3 of the Bill. This section provides for the erection of electric generating stations designed for using peat as fuel. The idea of using peat fuel to generate electrical energy is not by any means a new one. The late Sir John Griffith planned to use his bog at Turraun as a source of electric power for distribution in the Offaly district. The coming of the Shannon scheme ended this project; but, nevertheless, a small power station was erected in Turraun about 20 years ago, and to-day it is still giving efficient service and supplying sufficient power to operate the machinery and plant at the Turraun bog.

In 1918 the Irish Peat Inquiry Committee, set up by the British Government under the auspices of the Fuel Research Board, carried out very extensive investigations into the turf resources of this country. The committee came to the conclusion "that peat may be won in Ireland on a scale which would warrant the establishment of electrical power stations at one or more of the most favourably situated bogs." They recommended inter alia:

(1) "That the State purchase a large bog so that full control may be obtained over the whole area for drainage, transport and transmission purposes, the aim being to allow of the winning of at least 100,000 tons of air-dried peat per season.

(2) That an authority, endowed with necessary powers, be set up to take charge of and administer the scheme, together with the experimental investigations involved.

(3) That systematic drainage of the bog be carried out, so as to render it fit for peat winning and agriculture.

(4) That different types of electrically driven peat-winning machines and labour-aiding appliances, for loading and conveying, be obtained and employed under working conditions to determine which is the best for work on a large scale in Ireland."

To-day these recommendations are being put into effect. In 1919 a Commission of Inquiry into the Resources and Industries of Ireland was established by Dáil Éireann. This commission set up a committee under the chairmanship of the late Professor Hugh Ryan, to inquire into the power resources of Ireland. The committee confirmed the recommendation of the earlier British committee, and proposed that at least one station of about 20,000 k.w. fired with turf should be erected in a suitable locality. The powers now sought in this Bill will enable the Electricity Supply Board to give practical effect to that proposal.

It might be well to refer to some further recommendations of the 1918 committee. The committee was satisfied that the economic winning of peat for the purposes of large scale electrical power development is dependent on the use of machinery. The committee recommended that such a scheme for peat-winning should be associated with the reclamation of the bog for agricultural purposes. The aim of the development scheme at Clonsast and in other places is to leave the bog fit for agricultural purposes.

The committee also recommended that hamlets or small villages of labourers houses be erected on suitable sites in the vicinity of the bogs under development. This recommendation has been carried into effect at Clonsast. The proposal to erect a peat-fuelling generating station is attractive from many points of view. Turf is one of the few basic industrial raw materials we have in large quantities in this country. It has the great disadvantage, however, in common with all low grade industrial materials, that in its production the costs of handling and transport are very high in proportion to its value. How to reduce these costs is a major problem in the development of our bogs. Even on the bog itself, it costs nearly twice as much to take a ton of dry turf from a rick to the loading yard as it does to cut the raw material for it. The enormous advantage, therefore, of burning the turf on the bog instead of burdening it with the further cost of carrying it ten, twenty or thirty miles is apparent.

As regards the actual combustion of the turf in power-house boilers, there is, of course, no problem. In other countries turf is used extensively in power stations. In north west Germany there are two such stations, each using 100,000 tons of turf per annum. At one station alone in Russia there are more than 2,000,000 tons of peat produced and burned each year in a power station. In fact, the industrial regions of Moscow and Leningrad are, in a large measure, dependent on turf for their industrial power requirements. There is no reason why in this country where, for generations, 3,500,000 tons of turf have been produced and used annually even in the area under our jurisdiction, an attempt should not be made to supply our expanding power requirements from turf.

The economy of large scale winning of turf by machinery depends on getting two crops of turf each year on the bog. Ability to secure two crops depends on (a), weather and length of season, and (b), machines. It has been contended that the weather conditions here are not as favourable as the weather conditions in Russia or Germany for the economic winning of turf by machinery. As regards Russia, the climatic conditions are really not comparable, and while there may be a closer resemblance between conditions here and those in north west Germany, where the power stations are situated, it is difficult, nevertheless, to make real comparisons because conditions are not sufficiently similar to make such comparisons of more than merely, academic interest. The length of the season is as important a, factor as the weather in getting output, and here we would seem to have a definite advantage over Germany. In Germany the maximum length of the season for cutting is from April to the end of July, whereas we can cut here from late February until the end of July.

The real significance of both weather and season in relation to the economics of peat production must, however, be learned from experience. This much we do know, however: Since the Turf Board started winning turf commercially in 1935 it has always been able to win two crops on its bogs each year. I think the weather from 1935 to 1940 may be taken as fairly representative of the Irish climate. For instance, in the year 1939 the season was below average—indeed because of the high rainfall in 1938-39 the Electricity Supply Board was able to secure the record-breaking output of no less than 284,000,000 units from its Ardnacrusha station—but the fact that that was a very wet year did not prevent turf cut at the end of July being saved at Clonsast. In contrast with 1938, 1939 was good, possibly indeed better than average and the turf was actually saved at Clonsast by the middle of August, which is unusually early.

As far as expert advice and reasonable anticipation, coupled with a degree of experience, can estimate, turf of a suitable moisture content for a generating station will be available at Clonsast to the full extent required. In a very bad year admittedly it is possible that difficulty will be experienced in saving the second crop of turf, but it is most improbable that a situation will arise when a serious shortage of turf will occur. In any event, to provide against such a contingency or against the more likely contingency of a temporary interruption in deliveries from the bog, due to bad weather or other causes outside the board's control, it is intended that a stock pile of suitable size will be provided at the power station site.

I have mentioned already that the second factor, which affects output is the efficiency of the turf-winning plant. On the whole the machines in use at Clonsast bog have proved themselves satisfactory. They were first tried out on an experimental routine last year. In the present year three of them, the maximum combined capacity of which is 60,000 tons a year, have given an output estimated at between 45,000 and 50,000 tons of turf. When it is considered that they were operating under most unfavourable conditions, inasmuch as the bog was largely being cut for the first time, that staffs were being trained, and that many of the more prolonged stoppages on the machines were due to delays in getting deliveries of spares because of war conditions, I think that this output must be considered as highly satisfactory.

A further factor which might here be mentioned, in connection with the economy of turf development, and the use of peat as a fuel in electricity works, is the life of a bog. It is estimated that the Clonsast Bog has a production life of at least 25 years. As latter-day progress in design has tended to render modern steam-driven generating plant economically obsolete within the first 15 years of its useful life, it is reasonable to assume that the bog, as a source of fuel, will outlive by a considerable margin the first generating plant put down in the new generating station.

Mr. Morrissey

Do I understand that it is estimated that the Clonsast Bog will be completely cut away in 25 years?

That is the assumption.

Mr. Morrissey

What is going to happen to the people who always got their fuel there?

How did they get on before the bog was developed at all and when there was no prospect of its being developed?

Mr. Morrissey

There was always turf there.

If the Deputy will bear with me, I was going to draw attention to the fact that there are adjacent bogs which, when required, can be brought, into operation, and which should extend the life of the power station by at least another 25 years. In this connection, however, progressive technical developments either in the design of generating plant or in turf-winning methods should not be lost sight of. Another aspect of the proposed new development is that the bog at Clonsast affords both steady and seasonal employment in a rural area. It is anticipated that when fully developed for the purposes of the new generating station the bog will give employment to some 400 workers all the year round, and seasonal employment to an additional 200 workers. During the season just passed there were as many as 500 workers employed on the bog. This, I think, it will be agreed, is precisely the type of rural employment which the country needs, and it is to be regretted that more of it is not immediately available.

The magnitude, of the task undertaken by the Turf Development Board at Clonsast is not, I think, generally appreciated. Because its success there is a vital condition for the realisation of the prospect for a peat-burning generating station I should perhaps say something about it. The Clonsast bog is 4,000 acres in extent; that is to say, it is two and a half times greater than the size of the Phoenix Park. Needless to say, the drainage of such an area of bog had not before been undertaken in this country, and naturally, before the Turf Board embarked on such a large-scale development they looked for and secured the best available technical advice, whether at home or abroad. On this basis, in the development of Clonsast and Lyracrompane, they have accumulated a large amount of experience which previously was not available in this country. In the course of the work no less than 350 miles of drains had to be made by hand labour. Twelve miles of narrow-gauge light railway were laid, and 27 miles of electrical power lines erected. The organisation and execution of this work in unique circumstances was in itself a considerable achievement.

It has been established that the Optimum period of the drainage of a bog of the magnitude of Clonsast is considerably in excess of the originally anticipated three years, and it would be wise in future development of deep midland bogs to allow a period of five years for draining a bog of this size. The drainage of a bog cannot be rushed, and this fact caused difficulty in the distribution and the supervision of labour.

A problem which presented itself and which has now been largely overcome was the training of machine drivers and mechanical staff generally. Unlike the position in an ordinary industrial undertaking, machine drivers, in addition to attending their machines, must also have regard to variables created by conditions on the bog, the quality of the turf and the weather. It has taken considerable effort to impress on staffs the absolute necessity of doing the various operations at the critical moment and to impress on supervisory staffs the necessity for planning in advance the organisation of their labour. On account of the varying conditions of both the bog and the weather, it has not been always easy to dispose of labour, so that it would be available exactly when required.

It is not pretended that all the problems of large-scale bog development have been solved by the progress made so far at Clonsast. For instance, one of the most crucial problems, and one which I have mentioned before, is the question of transport on the bog. The cost and difficulty of this operation has been found to be much greater than was anticipated. When, however, the turf is being delivered to the power station, this difficulty, it is hoped, will be largely diminished and the cost of the operation reduced to its proper proportion.

The fact must not be lost sight of, however, that the ultimate value of the investment of £800,000, which it is proposed to make in the Portarlington station, depends upon the measure of success which attends the endeavours of the Turf Development Board to solve the very difficult engineering and other problems involved in the winning and harvesting of at least 120,000 tons of suitable peat fuel from the Clonsast bog every year. The converse is likewise true, that the Clonsast bog cannot be made an economic proposition unless the electricity generating station is erected to utilise the 120,000 tons of fuel so won. The Portarlington station is therefore an essential component of the turf development programme. The capital expenditure already incurred in the Clonsast experiment amounts to £190,000, and it is anticipated that it will ultimately reach £215,000. To this we must add the £800,000 which is the present estimate of the sum required for the electricity station, and we find that for the development of this one bog alone we are committed to an expenditure of over £1,000,000 as a minimum. I trust that the significance of this figure will be grasped by those who speak of the development of our peat resources as though it were a comparatively simple matter, only held up by lack of courage, or vision, or good will on the part of the Government or, as is more generally alleged, on the part of Finance officials.

As a proposition of interwoven engineering and economic complexities, the rational development of our bogs constitutes one of the most difficult problems ever given to any group of Irishmen to solve, and those who have been charged with that task, and who have the courage of pioneers in undertaking it, should be given every encouragement and consideration.

In the light of what I have just said, I may, perhaps, say something about the progress made at Clonsast this year. Having regard to the fact that this is a pioneer job, that we have had much to learn and have still much to learn about the peculiarities of our own bogs, and that many fortuitous difficulties were encountered, the results, to date, may be considered satisfactory. The operation costs are not yet as low as they should be, and as they must be, if this investment of £1,000,000 in the bog and this generating station is to justify itself. Nevertheless, the Turf Board feel that when a power station is erected, they will be able to sell turf to the Electricity Supply Board at a price comparable to the price of coal, having regard to the respective calorific value of the two fuels.

I am not to be taken as contending that the burning of 100,000 or 120,000 tons of turf is going to have a noticeable effect on our trade balance. Of itself, it will save only 50,000 or 60,000 tons of coal per annum, but if the Clonsast and Portarlington experiment succeeds, it will lead to the more assured development of other bogs as sources of electrical energy; and this development will proceed step by step with the development of our remaining water-power resources—and the experience, indeed, of the Electricity Supply Board has shown that, in order to deal with the large variations which nature may impose on the generating capacity of installed water-power plant, as between one year and another and as between one season and another, it is essential to instal steam-driven stations to make good the deficiencies which thus arise.

One of the special difficulties which the Turf Board encountered this year, and with which, but for the war, it would not have been beset, was in securing the turf-winning plant required for its programme. Six machines of special design were on order, and it was anticipated—and the results obtained this year show the anticipation to have been well founded that these six machines would give an output of at least 120,000 tons of suitable fuel per annum. The Board, unfortunately, was prevented by the outbreak of hostilities from getting the delivery of more than three of the machines, and it is now trying to have three others constructed here at home.

If the problem of obtaining the necessary materials is overcome there is every reason to believe that with the co-operation of the engineering shops in this country they will succeed in getting their full complement of plant. On the other hand, should this expectation not be realised, and should there be unavoidable delay in procuring further machines, the project, so far as the Clonsast and Portarlington undertakings are concerned, will not collapse in the interim, for, in the circumstances which render it impossible to get the machines, it is reasonable to assume that there will be some difficulty in getting coal, and that accordingly by the production and sale of 60,000 tons of turf the board will be enabled to pay its way, except perhaps as regards the provision which ought to be made for depreciation.

I think we must assume also that, in the circumstances to which I have referred, if the Turf Development Board cannot get these machines it is unfortunately and regrettably likely the E.S.B. will be in a similar dilemma in regard to the plants required at the Portarlington station. Indeed there is some reason to fear that it may find itself in this position in regard to the plant required and so long on order for the Liffey station. Should, however, the improbable happen and the E.S.B. be able to complete the generating station, while the Turf Board remains unable to obtain additional machines, the Portarlington station should be in a position to supply about half its normal output, or 45 million units of electricity per annum to the Electricity Supply Board network. Naturally the fact that the station would be operating at half capacity would considerably increase the operating cost per unit generating, and would in fact increase them by about 50 per cent., but in the circumstances which we have been considering that would not be of such serious import as it otherwise would be.

We may now give some consideration to the more purely electro-economic aspects of the proposed turf fuel generating station. Hitherto, the function of the Electricity Supply Board's steam plant has been mostly to provide for low water periods in the Shannon. It is of interest to note in this connection that the past ten years have been, on the whole, abnormally dry. The records indeed show that while during this period only one year has been wetter than the average year, and only one year has been about equal to the average year, the other eight years have all been much drier than the average year. In fact, the discharge of the Shannon during the financial year 1933-34 was only a little more than 40 per cent. of the average discharge during the preceding 40 years.

The effect of a variation in rainfall upon the operating conditions of the Electricity Supply Board generating stations is well brought out by the figures for the number of units delivered to the Electricity Supply Board network from. Ardnacrusha and Pigeon House generating plants, respectively, in the years 1938-39 and 1939-40. In 1938-39, out of a total delivery to the network, of 367,000,000 units, Ardnacrusha supplied, in round figures, 284,000,000 or 77.4 per cent. of the whole, while the Pigeon House only delivered 81,000,000 units or 22 per cent. In 1939, which was a much drier year, Ardnacrusha delivered only 208,000,000 units or 51 per cent. of a total delivery of 388,000,000 units, while the Pigeon House was responsible for 179,000,000 or 46.1 per cent. The effect of these variations in output from the two stations was reflected in the average cost per unit delivered from them. For the Pigeon House units this was .6994d. in 1938-39, but fell to .4457d. in 1939-40. For the Ardnacrusha units, on the other hand, while the average cost per unit delivered was only .2725d. in 1938-39, the figure rose to .3723d. in 1939-40.

The problem involved in the economic utilisation of our water-power resources in conjunction with steam-driven plant has been altered somewhat by the fact that the demand on the Electricity Supply Board network has now increased to such an extent that what is known as the base load on the system is not likely ever to be less than 20 M.W. the, whole year through. With this fact in view, the size of the Portarlington plant has been fixed likewise at 20 M.W., so that it may be considered available to take the base load of the whole system. On that hypothesis it is estimated that normally its annual output will be of the order of 90,000,000 units per year, and its capital cost is taken, as already stated, at £800,000, though this, I should say, in present circumstances naturally is by no means a firm figure.

On this basis it is estimated that the works cost per unit generated at Portarlingfcon will be approximately .426d., of which fuel will represent .169d.; labour and other works costs, .057d., and capital charges .236d.

We may compare these figures with those for the Liffey development, where for an anticipated output of 30,000,000 units per annum from plant having a capacity of 34 M.W. the capital cost in round figures is expected to be £785,000, and the costs per unit generated .568d., of which .1d. will be in respect of labour and other works costs, while .468d. will be in respect of capital charges.

In regard to these and other comparisons which I may make, I must emphasise that each element of plant, whether at the Pigeon House, Ardnacrusha, Poulaphouca or Portarlington, is designed for its own particular form of service, and if employed upon another and different type of service would probably not give the same economic results. Thus, the figures which I have given for Portarlington will apply to it only when it is working as a base load station, for which special service it is designed, while those for the Liffey plant relate to its working as a peak load and general regulating plant for which in like manner it has been designed. It is almost certain that if the Portarlington station were to be used to perform the special functions of the Poulaphouca station its costs per unit generated would be very much higher.

This caution must likewise be borne in mind, when I say that the cost per unit generated in 1938-39 at the Pigeon House was .6201d., of which .2258d. was in respect of capital charges, .2437d. for fuel, and .1506d. for labour and other costs. In 1939-40, on the other hand, the total cost was only .4085d., of which .1246d. was for capital charges, .2107d. for fuel, and .0732d. for labour, etc. For Ardnacrusha in 1938-39 the figures were:—capital charges, .2162d.; labour and other costs, .0355d., making a total of .2517d. per unit generated, and for 1939-40 were:—capital charges, .3230d.; labour and other costs, .0454d., making .3684d. per unit generated.

I have already pointed out how these figures were influenced by the weather conditions prevailing during the critical months of the year which I have cited. In fact in this respect our huge electricity undertaking is no more independent than the least fortunate of our farmers. These figures, while they are not strictly comparable, have this advantage. They do place the Portarlington station in its proper economic perspective. For the special service which it has been designed to fulfil, the Portarlington station, in my view, is as economic—taking every factor into consideration, including the amount of employment given in winning the fuel—an electrical project as any other which the country can produce. Therefore, I hope that the Dáil, having regard to what is involved in the undertaking, to the fact that it is a pioneer and experimental undertaking, and bearing in mind the beneficial results for the community which would attend its success, will give us every encouragement in proceeding with it.

Though our progress from an output of 61,000,000 units from our stations in 1929-30, and from 48,000 consumers in the same year, to 409,000,000 units, with 172,000 consumers, in 1939-40—ten years later—may seem remarkable enough, we have still much leeway to make up in the utilisation of electricity. We are, in fact, with a, consumption of only 127 units per head, amongst the least users of electricity in the world, ranking lower than Mexico, and a good deal lower than Japan. But our demands are growing and I think that, in normal times, they would grow at an ever-accelerating rate. In any event, we are now at the stage when, apart altogether from Portarlington and the Liffey, we must consider new projects.

It is usually necessary to allow three or four years for the provision of new generating plant. In view of this fact, preliminary investigations have been carried out by the Electricity Supply Board, and from these investigations it is clear that the most important river, from the hydro-electric point of view, in this country, after the Shannon is the Erne. It is estimated that an average output of from 160,000,000 to 200,000,000 units can be obtained from that river. The catchment of the Erne is about 1,600 square miles, and somewhat more than half of this is in the territory under our jurisdiction, as is practically the total fall of 150 feet from Lower Lough Erne to the sea.

It is possible to carry out the development of this river concomitant with the regulation of the lakes, not only for the production of power but for the improvement of drainage. If this dual purpose project were to be undertaken, however, co-operation of the authorities in Northern Ireland would be essential and, indeed, would be warmly welcomed. If, which I trust would not be the case, co-operation would not be forthcoming, it would still be possible for us to carry out the project without any interference with the present regulation of the lakes, in which case, of course, no improvement in drainage would be obtained. Plans and estimates for the works show that the cost of development, whether full or partial, would be very economic. It would, accordingly, be a most desirable proposition from every point of view.

I hope that, even in the present circumstances, it may be found possible to initiate it and that in due course it will be the happy lot, either of myself or of some successor of mine, to ask the Dáil to provide the moneys required to give effect to a practical instance of co-operation between Irishmen, North and South, for the good of our common country. There is nothing more I have to say about this measure. I have, perhaps, taken up the time of the House unduly, but I was anxious, in view of the fact that the Bill includes provisions designed to clarify the doubts which have been expressed in regard to the powers, of the Electricity Supply Board to erect an electric generating plant for the utilisation of peat fuel, I was anxious to put that proposition to the House in all its details, so that the Dáil might be fully aware of what was being attempted.

The Minister has favoured the House with an explanation of the various sums which go to make up the total amount which is involved in connection with this measure. May I suggest to him that, if it falls to him again to bring in any further extension of this, he should get some more expeditious method of doing it than that which is set out in Section 2, sub-sections (1) and (2), in the very elaborate method of dealing with a mere extension of the capital sum involved?

We are much indebted to the Minister for the figures he has set out on this table and which, so far as the general run of members of the House is concerned, can be really resolved into one particular figure, that is the figure of item No. 4. It would be very desirable that, in connection with a matter of this kind, we would be in a position to give impartial consideration to what the Minister has said to us. We find a little difficulty in doing that for some reasons. The first is perhaps an explanation of the Electricity Supply Board itself. In dealing in its report with the utilisation of peat fuel it says, on page 13:—

"The board has had under consideration the construction of a peat-fired generating station, and the technical and economic aspects of the utilisation of this fuel have been investigated. The availability of adequate supplies of peat will be an important factor in the economic operation of the station. The Department of Industry and Commerce has assured the board that the production of the Clonsast bog will be increased to meet the large demands of a generating station, and on the basis of these assurances a suitable site has been selected, and steps are being taken to empower the board to proceed with this project."

One would imagine, in connection with a matter of this kind, that if the board were really whole-heartedly in favour of this, and taking into account the very large sum of money that is involved—£800,000—we would get some of the information which the Minister has given us in tabloid form.

It will be within the recollection of some of the older members of this House that, in the beginning of this Ardnacrusha undertaking, this great development for the generation of electricity through the country, there was not a political humbug in the country who did not criticise it. Humbugs in various chambers of commerce spoke on it as if they possessed the inspired genius of an engineer. There was not a journalist that was not nervously holding up his hand in holy horror, and so down along the whole line of political madcaps in the country. But we have lived all that down. We have seen now that we could, and did, make a success of this great electricity undertaking. Its expansion has been remarkable. It has still a good distance to go. It was rather disappointing to gather, from what the Minister said here to-night, that there is no great desire on his part, nor is there even any indication of it on the part of the Electricity Supply Board itself, to regard the Electricity Supply Board undertaking as a great public service—as something that could be made of great use to the country.

It is within the bounds of possibility that the Electricity Supply Board itself feels constrained to keep within the narrow limits of its balance. But it has a balance this year of £54,000. That balance might be very suitably employed if, after consultation with the Minister or the Ministry, some steps were taken to utilise it, and so bring the current to various parts of the country where at the moment it is not perhaps considered an economic proposition to do so. There is scarcely a farmer in the country who would not derive benefit from it. I referred to this when discussing another Bill with the Minister for Local Government, this evening. Unfortunately, the position we are in at the moment is that every single Department of State is a government in itself. Not one of them will do anything in the way of co-operation with anybody else. We were told this evening that we could not use the harbour boards for reclamation work and the giving of employment because that was the responsibility of another Ministry. We were told the same thing in connection with the expenditure of public money for the relief of unemployment. Surely, an extension of the system throughout the country, the employment that would arise from that as well as the ultimate benefit that would accrue to the farmer and to the appearance and general improvement of the country, would be an advantage.

Now this Bill may be said to resolve itself into two main points. The first is this Clonsast development. If this Clonsast development is a development on its own merits—I mean of a peat-fuel generating system—if it can stand on its own and has not been instituted in order to bolster up and keep in existence the Peat Development Board, and we can scarcely be blamed for perhaps having an evil thought in that direction having regard to our experience of turf development throughout the country: but, as I say, if that development is to be on its own merits and can stand the test of examination, we are entitled to get some figures. Those figures and those explanations were given in connection with the original proposal.

This is a matter of spending an extra £800,000 at a time when there is scarcely a single item in connection with the big expenditure of £4,000,000 that has escaped extra costs by reason of the outbreak of hostilities. Since, therefore, we are faced with extra costs in connection with the generation of electricity, it is obviously our duty to ensure that we are not going to indulge in any new experiments. It is all the more necessary in view of the Minister's concluding statement. In connection with the harnessing of other water power resources, the Electricity Supply Board says:—

"Subsequent to the completion of the hydrometric investigations for the River Liffey development, work was commenced on an examination of the potentialities of various rivers in the country for hydro-electric development. Certain possible power sites have been selected and arrangements have been made for the keeping of flow records in collaboration, where mutually convenient, with the Drainage Department of the Office of Public Works. In this connection special automatic water level recorders have been installed on the Erne, the Boyne and the Lee. The number of such observation stations may be increased from time to time."

If we are going to invest this £800,000 in something which on its face is giving the greatest possible latitude to the Minister, something that has an element of speculation in it, and that we are leaving there something which has in it great potentialities, a lower cost and the possibility of creating and improving new and cordial relations between ourselves and some of our neighbours up North, then the latter would appear to be the more economic and the sounder proposition of the two. However, these matters ought not to be the subject of political canvassing. They should be decided by experts, and I would be prepared to accept the opinion of experts. I have done it before. We took some risks in connection with the initiation of the Ardnacrusha undertaking, and we are not going to be appalled if we have to give consideration to the recommendations of other experts.

Leaving entirely out of account the expenses and considerations which have obtruded themselves occasionally on the public mind, it would be a rather serious thing, to my mind, to exhaust the bogs in the different parts of the country while we have water running from day to day, water that is not going to be exhausted by reason of its being harnessed to these schemes. There is one satisfaction for anybody who has observed this turf development during the last few years, and that is that after all the money that has been expended on it, with all the advertising, canvassing, and all the rest of it, the Government have not succeeded in taking as much turf out of the bogs as had been taken before all this work was undertaken. There is some satisfaction in that for this reason: that from some parts of the Minister's speech this evening one could infer that a capital asset, such as bogs, was there to be exhausted, and that we, in our generation, were exhausting it and leaving nothing for those who will come after us. The House is entitled to a report by experts on the merits of this proposal to put up a power station at Portarlington. It would give generous consideration to a proposal of that sort if it were recommended as an economic proposition. It may be that the Minister was looking at different figures from those which I have before me, but my information is that, at Ardnacrusha in 1939, 286,000,000 units were, generated.

From what publication is the Deputy quoting?

The Thirteenth Annual Report of the Electricity Supply Board. At the Pigeon House 89,000,000 units were generated, and at Cork 1,000,000 units. In the year ended the 31st of March, 1940, 210¼ million units were generated at Ardnacrusha, 195? million units at the Pigeon House, and almost 1,000,000 units at Cork. These figures are slightly different from those which the Minister gave us. He gave us what he said were the units which came into commission.

We have not got those particulars. Similarly, with regard to the comparisons which he gave us. I have a horror of comparisons and averages since Fianna Fáil came into office because of the way they are employed. Some of the figures the Minister gave were not comparable. He was honest enough to tell us that but we ought to get them as nearly comparable as possible. I do not care for this £800,000 proposition without the recommendation of experts. I do not care for this proposal to give the board power to invest sums set aside under sub-section (2) of Section 21 of the Principal Act or accumulated by the board as reserves. If they have any money, it should be used to pay off, after providing for depreciation. But this business of continually handing over and borrowing and making up reserves does not appeal to me. There can scarcely be any difference in money value in paying off and dealing with the money in this way. They borrow at particular times almost every other year. If they pay off, it will save them the trouble of making arrangements for investing and it will lessen their troubles generally. It may possibly keep them out of another difficulty, if not under this Ministry then under some other Ministry. My information, for what it is worth, is that this board does not pay income tax. If they commence to make investments and engage in enterprises of that sort, it may be that some enterprising Government, if not this Government, will bring about a change in that position.

I am disappointed with the Minister's statement. I had hoped that our entire efforts would be devoted to improving country life and making the countryside more attractive. I had hoped that we would have been able to extend to the people living in the country some of the advantages of city life and, in that way, make the countryside less unpopular than it has been growing in recent years. I had thought that some portion of the Minister's speech would have been devoted to showing that they were, at least, examining that side of the picture and that, in the near future, with the progress now being made, it would be possible for the Electricity Supply Board to devote some portion of their money annually to that work. It would appear as if, during the last two years, that could have been done without any great strain. It is only fair that people living in towns and villages which are not yet connected with the electricity system should share the advantages which their more fortunate brethren in other parts of the country are enjoying. It is rather interesting to notice that these lines have been laid in squares in the country. In very rare cases do they go away from the square.

Those of us who have got so lazy here that we would be terribly disappointed if we had to strike a match to light a candle instead of turning on a switch should have some consideration for those people in the country who have not the advantage of the switch, and who might be better off if they were able to use the power available. The power, according to the Minister's statement, merely awaits harnessing to make electricity available at a very moderate rate. In North-West Cork and portions of Kerry and Donegal they have not got any advantage at all from this great electricity undertaking. It would be better if we considered that aspect of the matter than this proposition, unless the experts can recommend it. The Minister ought to be perfectly satisfied as to this experiment and ought to take the House into his confidence. He should get reports from experts and circulate them to members of the House. Now that we have outlived the period of lack of confidence in the State and State institutions, it would be unfortunate if anything were done which would retard the progress, which has been very-marked and remarkable, of so great an undertaking.

I wish to make a few remarks somewhat on the lines of Deputy Cosgrave. In making these comments, I should like to say that we are passing this expenditure of £4,000,000 in rather light-hearted fashion. I have the White Paper but I have not got the Bill, though I understand it has been circulated.

Of course.

Some of us have not had an opportunity of looking into this matter in the way we should like. Reviewing the schemes up to the present, we have the Shannon scheme, which is a hydro scheme. That was the major work and, like most pioneer undertakings, it experienced a good deal of criticism and difficulty. The Poulaphouca scheme is the next, and it is a hydro scheme. Before the Poulaphouca scheme is finished, the Electricity Supply Board have found that generation is insufficient for the requirements of the country. So far as one can understand, the Pigeon House has been occupied. The Minister said it had been used to supplement supply in the years in which there was a low rainfall, but I seem to remember a time when the Pigeon House had to be brought on on the peak load. The Minister can correct me if I am wrong. In any event, the Pigeon House is a steam plant, using coal. I tried to follow the Minister's statement.

The Minister referred to units of electricity and in other cases to megawatts and kilowatts, and he did not exactly reduce these to a common denominator, but so far as we can understand, especially from the apologetic tone in which the Minister introduced the question of Clonsast, it seems to me that it is an experiment in a steamer station run by turf. I do not know what the capacity of the Pigeon House is, but I think the Minister spoke of the capacity of Clonsast as about a hundred million units per year. I see in the explanatory memorandum that there is a sum of £800,000 for the construction of a new peat burning generating station at Portarlington. The Minister referred to boilers, and I suppose the peat will be put into the boilers and steam generated. The capacity of the plant, however, is not given.

If the Deputy had been listening to me, he would have heard me state the capacity of the plant at Portarlingfcon. I am not responsible for the fact that the Deputy did not follow me.

I apologise to the Minister. I took it to be round about 100,000,000 units.

In regard to Portarlington, I said the estimated output would be 90,000,000 units per year, and the capacity of the plant would be 20,000 kilowatts.

The capacity of the plant would be round 90,000,000 units?

No, that the rated capacity of the plant was 20,000 kilowatts, which would give an output on the assumed basis of working of 90,000,000 units per year. The size of the plant was 20,000 kilowatts.

It is not stated in the White Paper. I said 100,000,000 units and the Minister says 90,000,000 units. If one takes that as a stand-by to assist the Pigeon House, I suppose it is some sort of contribution, but if one regards it in the light of the way the Poulaphouca scheme appears to have been shown to have been inadequate before it was erected, I am not sure that the Minister's ideas are big enough. I do not think anybody would like to see the Shannon, Poulaphouca, Pigeon House and Olonsast schemes, and before the Clonsast scheme was finished, a start made on the foundations of the Erne scheme or the next most favourable hydro, scheme.

The Minister says I was not listening to him, but I listened to him with the greatest attention. Perhaps it is not possible to pick up all the points from his speech, but I rather inferred that in some of these cases the expenditure had already been made and, presumably then, the equipment has been provided. If that is so, having regard to the fact that the Electricity Supply Board probably know their own requirements best, I have not got a word to say, but if one can gather anything with regard to the present international situation, it is that it is very doubtful and obscure, and that while we have already embarked on rising costs and find it difficult to obtain deliveries of machinery, it may be even more difficult before the scheme is finished to get delivery of machinery.

There is another point, and if the Minister mentioned it I certainly did not catch it. This is, apparently, more or less to cover the Electricity Supply Board's requirements up to 1942. Are they at the peak of their load, taking Poulaphouca into account, because it seems that we thought that the Electricity Supply Board would have gauged their requirements very carefully, and I think it would be very foolish for them to look at present for any machinery or equipment that was not absolutely necessary. I do not know how far it would be more economical to go on with a bigger hydro scheme such as the Erne, which the Minister mentioned, and which is the next best according to the experts, but the point I wish to call attention to is that before we know where we are, we shall have five schemes—two steamers, two hydro schemes, and a third under construction.

I should like the Minister to give us some idea as to the extent to which the use of electricity is estimated to increase. This, apparently, is designed to cover the period up to 1942. That being so, is there a considerable reserve in that? The Minister has spoken about Clonsast and about winning the turf there, but if the requirements for some time to come could be covered, or at least postponed, I should like to see another hydro scheme gone on with, or the possibility of it explored. Apparently, the requirements of electricity in this country have been tremendously under-estimated and I would not be at all surprised if we found they had been again under-estimated. It would be most unfortunate if a steamer had been put up—I call Clonsast a steamer —which would only last for the life of the bog, and we were to find that perhaps the machinery to generate the plant could not be obtained before 1942, and by that time we could have had the concrete foundations and a whole lot of the works of a hydro scheme gone on with, nearly all the materials for which are available. It seems to me to be a question to which very careful consideration should be given as to whether our ideas are big enough. Certainly the water flows through the plant, whereas the peat has to be won. During next winter, and possibly the winter after, we might come to a position in which we would find that the peat won from Clonsast would be very useful for the inhabitants of this country for their ordinary requirements. I should like the Minister to tell us as much about that as possible when he is replying.

On this Bill I should like to raise one matter which affects the staff of the Electricity Supply Board.

I presume it is a matter over which the Minister has control?

Oh, yes.

The Deputy may proceed.

The Minister will admit that legislation is necessary to remedy the difficulty. Under Section 8 of the Act of 1927, that is the parent Act, provision was made whereby the board was entitled to recruit staff and pay them certain remuneration and allowances. It was then assumed by the board, and has since been assumed by, the board, that that enabled them to provide a pension scheme for their employees. While the board holds that view, I understand that the Minister's Department, and perhaps the Attorney-General, holds the view that the section in question does not in fact enable the board to provide a pension scheme for its employees. As the House will realise, the staff of the Electricity Supply Board is now considerable in number, and in the case of a public undertaking of that kind it is not unreasonable to ask that some provision should be made for pensions to employees who have served the board for a long number of years, and who may ultimately pass out of its service without any pension whatever, unless some legislative steps are taken to enable the board to introduce a pension scheme. I understand the position of the board to be that it is perfectly anxious to provide such a scheme, but, owing to the dispute as to the meaning of Section 8 of the Act of 1927, the board does not feel itself empowered, in view of the advice it has got from the Department, to proceed with the matter.

Discussions between the staff and the board have dragged on for a very long time. Just a summary of those discussions may be interesting, as showing that so far as the staff are concerned they have displayed extraordinary patience in the face of difficulties which are, I submit, readily surmountable. In November, 1934, the board said to the employees: "While the board is in fact broadly examining the question of providing such a pension scheme, it is necessary to state that, in the board's view, it is as yet premature to employ a scheme of that kind until the board is satisfied that a normal position has been reached in regard to expenditure and staff requirements."

In February, 1935, the staff was informed: "The hoard has now decided to inaugurate such a scheme, and is making the necessary investigations in this connection. It will be appreciated of course that investigations of this kind may take some little time." Then we come to August, 1935, when the board said that they had not yet completed their investigations. Then we are carried on to January, 1936, when the staff were informed: "The board has carried out its investigations up to a point, but regrets that it is not possible at this stage to state in what year the board may be in a position to consider application of the scheme." In February, 1939, after a lapse of three years, the staff were informed that legislation which the board was advised was necessary had not yet been implemented. At that stage the board had sought, apparently, authority from the Department to proceed by legislation to introduce the scheme. In March, 1939, the staff were informed: "Before the board can introduce arrangements for superannuation, sanction must be obtained, and application for such sanction has been made to the Minister." In May, 1940, the staff were informed: "The board has sought legislative authority for such a scheme, as enabling legislation was necessary. The time at which legislation will be introduced is a matter outside the control of the board."

I think the Minister will admit that so far as the enabling legislation is concerned he is the only person in a position to introduce the necessary legislation to enable the board to proceed with its scheme of superannuation. I am sure the Minister will recognise that in the case of a public undertaking of this kind, employing a large staff, it is very desirable from every standpoint that a superannuation scheme should be introduced, and I strongly urge the Minister to avail of this Bill to include an enabling section which would give power to the board to introduce a superannuation scheme, the details afterwards being worked out between the board, perhaps the Minister, and the staff concerned.

If legislative authority is necessary, I presume that there should not be any difficulty in making provision in this Bill to give that authority, thus enabling this dispute, which has dragged on for a number of years, to be satisfactorily settled in the interests of the board and the staff. I hope the Minister will be able to indicate that he can make that provision in this Bill.

The Second Stage of this Bill may not be concluded to-night. There was an understanding that the last business to-day would be the one-clause University Bill which was introduced earlier, and that all the Stages were to be given to-day. Is it agreed that debate on the Electricity Bill be adjourned, say, at 10.10 p.m., to give time for consideration of the University Bill?

Agreed.

I will not occupy the House for very long in connection with this Bill. I am sure the Minister will appreciate that the introduction of such a measure as this, containing the proposals which the Minister has outlined in his speech, must be received by us on this side of the House with every sympathy, and given sympathetic consideration. Any criticisms that we make, if they can be regarded as criticisms, are made in a construct, tive spirit, realising that really the introduction of a measure of this kind is a striking testimonial by the present Minister to the courage, vision and foresight of his predecessor who initiated this great electricity scheme, of the Shannon works. There are two aspects of this matter to which I wish to refer, and I should also like to make one or two observations on the remarks that were made by Deputy Norton.

The outstanding disappointment to me in connection with this measure is the fact that it contains not merely no provision for rural electrification but no hint—either in the Bill itself or in the Minister's statement—that that matter of rural electrification is within the contemplation of the Government, or that the Government has any intention of facilitating the Electricity Supply Board in any measures for the rural electrification of this country. Like the Minister, I represent a city constituency, but it has been brought to my attention from various quarters that there is an ever growing demand, an insistence, on the part of dwellers in towns and villages, and even in the most rural parts of the country, for facilities in connection with the electricity supply. It used to be rather a joke that farmers were unable to understand why it was that when the cables carrying the electricity from Ardnacrusha to Dublin passed through their fields they were not able to put up a wire to tap the source of supply and bring it direct to the farmers, but, while that is a matter for ridicule, perhaps it does contain some serious element, because the rural community and the dwellers in towns and small villages who are not receiving the benefits of the electricity scheme are getting extremely restive. I will not go into the point, in case it might be even remotely suggested that I was indulging in political consideration, who is responsible for the outlook of the farming community in connection with this scheme, but undoubtedly there is a feeling in the country that fanners are paying for this scheme and are getting no benefit. Of course, everybody knows by now that it is really the electricity consumers who are paying for this entire scheme and that the taxpayers are paying not one penny piece towards it. Nevertheless, the farmers and the dwellers in towns and villages are making insistent demands in all sources to have the facilities afforded to them that are being afforded to their more fortunate neighbours.

They are also unable to understand the denial of the facilities to a particular town, village or group of villages when, a comparatively short distance away, another group of villages is served by the electricity supply. Although up to this, so far as I know, the taxpayer has not been called upon to pay one penny piece in connection with this development scheme, I think it might be worth the Minister's while and the Government's while to consider whether it would not be a national matter that some money should be given from the Exchequer to enable rural electrification to be carried out as soon as possible. I do not know what it would cost. I confess my ignorance in this matter, but I do think it is easy to understand the outlook of the country people. They will find it very much, more difficult to understand when they realise that, as a result of the introduction of this Bill and the measures forecast by the Minister in his speech, the position is that the Shannon has been harnessed for the purpose of getting electricity, that the Pigeon House is working at full capacity, that a scheme is being brought to fruition in connection with the development of the Liffey, that it is proposed to set up a new generating station in Portarlington, ind that the Minister envisages in a very short time that the waters of the Erne will also be harnessed for the purposes of supplying electricity. To whom? Dwellers in the city. Apparently, notwithstanding the fact that the Liffey and the Shannon are giving their natural resources to the country, that the Pigeon House is working at full capacity, that turf is going to be pressed into the service and that the River Erne is also within the ambit of the Minister's hopes, at all events, the villages will not have their cottages, their chapels, their schools, or the farmers will not have their farmhouses, farm-sheds and buildings lit or worked by electricity.

It is rather difficult to understand, from the point of view of these people, why up to this point some effort has not been made to deal with the question of lighting these remote towns and villages and to solve the general problem of rural electrification in this country. I know that the attitude of the Electricity Supply Board to problems of that kind is one based purely upon an economic outlook. It is a complete answer to these people and a logical reply to their demands that a certain village should be supplied with light that it would cost more than the revenue that is likely to be got out of it. While it is a logical reply, while, possibly, a complete reply from an economic point of view yet, from a national point of view, I think it is no reply. I do suggest in all seriousness to the Minister that he should seriously consider this question and endeavour to bring in some provisions, if not in this particular Bill, at least in some measure early to be introduced into this House, to deal with the problem.

Deputy Cosgrave has spoken of the sum of money, £800,000, that is to be spent at the power station at Portarlington. I rather fancy that that will only exasperate the people in the country who are not receiving the benefits of this scheme and who, apparently, are not going to get the benefit of any development of the scheme. It will be no source of comfort to the people in the country to know that turf is being used instead of coal because, so far as they are concerned, that is all the £800,000 expenditure on the Portarlington scheme is going to mean—that turf is going to be used.

What about the 400 people in permanent employment?

The Minister anticipated me. I was coming to that. It will be no comfort to the people in towns and villages in districts far away from Portarlington to know that a certain number of people in the immediate vicinity of Portarlington are going to get jobs, even permanent jobs. It will be no comfort to them to know that the Government's scheme in reference to peat development is going to get another chance. In fact, I think that not merely the people in the rural parts of the country but the general consumers of electricity throughout the country will see in this proposal to spend £800,000 on the Portarlington scheme merely another effort to bolster, up the turf development scheme at the expense of the electricity consumers. I take it that this £800,000 eventually is going to be paid off by the people who buy electricity.

I think I am right in saying that no part of that £800,000 will come from the taxpayer, that it is going to be found first by the Government and given to the Electricity Supply Board for immediate expenditure but that it will be repaid with interest, probably at a very high percentage, at the expense of the people who buy electricity from the Electricity Supply Board. In other words, the people in Dublin and Cork will be paying for the expense of this experiment at Portarlington. As a person who uses a fair amount of electricity, I do not view with any enthusiasm whatever this experiment at Portarlington. I do not know what the necessity is for setting up this power station at Portarlington except that it is put up for the purpose of endeavouring to see if there is still another use for the turf at Clonsast, which was to be used in all sorts of ways. We were nearly smoked out of the Four Courts by tho use of turf, and even that has been given up. I think the use of it in Government offices generally has been given up. Now it is going to be put into n power station at Portarlington for the purpose of producing electricity for Dublin, Cork and Galway, presumably, and various other cities and towns, but, as I understand it at the moment, there is ample electricity being won from the waters of the Shannon and about to be won from the waters of the Liffey and being produced from the power station in Dublin to meet immediate requirements.

It is interesting to know from the Minister that we are one of the worst countries in the world from the point of view of consuming electricity. We are worse than Mexico, and I judged by the tone in which the Minister said that that that was saying the worst thing possible about us. Apparently we are the worst in the world, but we must have the Liffey and the Shannon and the Erne, and we must have the power station on the quay, and now we must have another station that will be operated by turf or we will not have enough electricity generated to supply the demands of the city populations and the populations of the bigger towns.

That does not seem to be logical, and I think that the only possible conclusion, a coercive conclusion, to come to from the facts is that this Portarlington scheme is not made for the benefit of electricity consumers, or the general scope or scheme of the Electricity Supply Board's activities, but is merely an effort to bolster up the turf development scheme, which was in danger of complete collapse. That is going to be done, not at the expense of the general taxpayer, but at the expense of the general consumer of electricity. The person in Dublin who is consuming electricity has to pay for the digging of turf out of the Portarlington bogs.

It may be to me, and perhaps to others who consume a considerable amount of electricity and pay for it, some consolation to know that we are helping to give employment, even though it is a long way from our constituents in Dublin, who are looking for employment anil not getting it; but if the Minister did attack the problem of rural electrification and give a supply of electricity to the towns and villages crying out for it at the moment, spread over all the country, far more employment would be given in installing and maintaining electricity, and in the various services connected with it, than if the entire bog at Clonsast were utilised for the purpose of generating electricity in sæcula sæculorum.

The argument in favour of the Portarlington scheme, that it would give employment to a certain number of men in Portarlington, has no validity. if this £800,000 were utilised in another direction, more employment would be given throughout the country as a whole. The Minister said that in order to see the real value of tha Portarlington scheme it had to be put in its proper economic perspective. We all krow the Minister is a great weaver of phrases. I thought that was a very fine phrase, but I confess I do not know what it means.

Perhaps I have an inkling of what it might mean, but I have also a sort of suspicion that it was merely a type of nice gaudy scheme made out of the framework of the Minister's word-weaving in order to conceal the fact that the really proper perspective of this project is nothing other than an effort to make electricity consumers pay for an experiment in the Portarlington bogs—putting it quite crudely. The only possible result from that will be that there mav or mav not be electricity generated from that that is required. I do not think it is required.

I do not think the Minister has stated categorically, having regard to the present consumers or the consumers of electricity who may reasonably be anticipated in the immediate future, that it is essential to set up this experiment in Portarlington. Deputy Cosgrave has pleaded with the Minister that this scheme should be subjected to scrutiny by experts. I do not wish to repeat what he has said, but I will direct the Minister's attention to a doubt that has been sown in my mind by the phraseology used by the framers of the report of the Electricity Supply Board for 1939-40, dealing with this scheme. Deputy Cosgrave has read it, and I will merely repeat the first two lines: "The board has had under consideration the construction of a peat-fired generating station and the technical and economic aspects of the utilisation of this fuel have been investigated." We are told there that the technical and economic aspects of the utilisation of this fuel have been investigated. We are not told in this report, nor has the Minister told the House, what the results of that investigation are.

I have told the Deputy that if the supply of turf can be obtained—and I do not think there is any doubt about that now—that the Portarlington station will generate current at an average cost of .426d. per unit, and I may tell the Deputy that that is lower than the average at which the Pigeon House station has been able to generate current during the last ten years.

I am prepared to accept the Minister's statement about the figures, but they make no impression on my mind, because I do not believe in figures. I want to direct the Minister's attention to this fact, that, when the Electricity Supply Board were making this report, they stopped short at saying it had been investigated. The Minister may have given figures, but so far as they are concerned they deal with the economic aspect of it. As to the technical aspect, what is the result of these technical considerations and by whom have these considerations been taken into account? What was the capacity of the persons who made them and the prospects that this thing may not be, from a technical point of view, a complete failure?

I indicated to the Minister that the phraseology of that report raised a doubt in my mind. I do not want to raise a doubt in any other person's mind, but, having regard to the plea made to the Minister by Deputy Cosgrave, that the way to deal with this problem, which involves the expenditure of £800,000, is the way the original problem was dealt with, namely, after a full report by independent experts of high standing, whose judgment and capacity to judge will be accepted, and whose final verdict on the matter will be taken as conclusive before this £800,000 is spent. Apart from that, I think that before this scheme in connection with turf development is taken up, involving as it does £800,000, the question of rural electrification should first be taken up. I do not think that a scheme in connection with rural electrification would cost anything like £800,000, but I have no data on which to base a real opinion, and I would like the Minister to give some idea of what it would cost to accommodate the towns and villages in rural areas that are now crying out for a supply of electricity.

I endorse what Deputy Norton said with reference to the staff. I think it was intended that the staff should have proper rules and regulations in regard to their superannuation. As Deputy Norton has pointed out, the original Act, enabling the board to grant remuneration, was conceived to comprise the power to grant a superannuation scheme. I say it is extraordinary, in such a Bill as this, which sets out to amend various Acts, that a power of that kind, which has been promised and which is wanted by the staff and by the board, should have been omitted.

With regard to an extension of the electricity supply to rural Ireland, before it can be extended to the rest of the country the power has first to be generated. We are told that the generating plant already in existence is working to its peak capacity. I was rather disappointed by the Minister's statement in reference to the total output of the various plants. No reference has been made to the benefit that the country is likely to get from these power stations as a whole. There is one aspect of rural life that needs particular consideration. As other Deputies have indicated, there are those towns and villages that are still unserved by the Electricity Supply Board. They have to be considered, but it is the requirements of the agricultural community that I want particularly to refer to.

The Minister and the Electricity Supply Board might consider the possibility of making available to the agricultural community in this country not only light, but power on their farms as well. It is important not only to illuminate the farmer's dwelling house, his cattle sheds and out-offices, but also to provide him with cheap power to operate,and rotate machinery on the farm for the pulping of roots, the grinding of surplus grain and work of that description, which is done by electricity in other countries. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
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