Matters arising out of Questions 28, 29 and 30 on the Order Paper are being raised on the motion for the Adjournment.
Adjournment—Employment at Bere Island Defence Works.
I asked the Minister for Defence a number of questions to-day dealing with the method of recruiting labour for employment in the Defence Forces at Bere Island. These questions followed questions of a similar kind asked in this House on November 7th and, in my judgment, and from the information I received, the story of employment in the Defence Forces on Bere Island is a story of rank political discrimination over the last two years. As I stated in a letter which I sent to the Minister some days ago, it is generally known in Berehaven, and the information I have will put the House in possession of a number of points, that nobody will get any employment there except the application is approved by the local branch of Fianna Fáil and a member of the Government Party sitting for the constituency. The Minister explained that the men employed on Bere Island are not recruited through the labour exchange. I see no reason why they could not be recruited through the labour exchange and, in reference to the Minister's point, that care has to be exercised in the selection of men for defence work, I think it would be quite easy for the officer in charge to ascertain through any local inquiries that are necessary, whether there would be any danger existing in the employment of any men sent from the exchange. It would be quite easy to do that.
I venture to suggest that such a thing could not occur in a comparatively small island, where the people are known to each other, and where their principal object is to get a living, and that is hard enough under any conditions. There should be no difficulty whatever in that respect. I join issue with the Minister on the point that there is any local power vested in the military officer in charge to recruit labour, because my information is that repeated applications to the officer in charge at Bere Island show that there was no power conferred on him for that purpose, and that application had to be made direct to the Department of Defence. I have endeavoured in this matter to get independent evidence, and for that purpose I asked the views of somebody in Bere Island with whom I have no political connection whatever, and no possible contact, except that I was given the name of a reputable man on the island who, in the old days suffered a good deal because of his efforts to help the movement to secure a national Government. He seems to me to be quite an impartial person, having no connection with any effort to secure employment, being an entirely detached observer. I ask the permission of the House to quote from a letter that I received in reply to my request. It reads:
"...I wish to let you know that it would not be easy for me to explain in detail how the employment is arranged on the D.O.D. works here. In the first place all the men employed are members of a political club. No others need apply. That is certain.... Younger men capable of doing the same work and who were trusted to help in the fight for freedom, and who have now young families are not nominated for employment because they do not belong to this political organisation. The chairman of this club is in supreme command and if you are not a friend of his, even though you were a good man, you could go hungry and, of course, the family as well.... There are two political clubs on the island and it is funny to see the chairman of one club on top of a ladder putting on a slate on a military house and the chairman of the other club attending on him...."
The story goes on in that way. As far as I could get information that state of affairs has been going on for 12 months. That is the evidence of a man who was not looking for employment, and who has no interest in the matter except to see fair play as regards employment. The Minister in reply to a supplementary question to-day also declined to institute an inquiry into this matter. I asked the Minister why there was any objection to having such an inquiry. If the story that I told is true then it represents a state of affairs that ought to be remedied. If there is no foundation for the story then the ventilation that it will get in public will certainly do no harm, but will do a great deal of good. None of us has any desire to see charges of this kind made except they are founded on facts.
I am quite satisfied, from all the evidence I have got, that the charges in the questions were not over-stated in any way, but represent what has been the normal position on Bere Island for the last two years. The Minister also stated on a supplementary question to-day that men were recruited for employment there on the recommendation of Deputies and other responsible persons. Speaking with the authority of Deputy O'Neill, Deputy O'Donovan and on my own behalf, I must say that there is not a single man in employment on Bere Island as the result of any recommendation from us. I am quite free in the matter, because I never made a recommendation of any kind. Possibly that would apply also to the other Deputies. So far as employment there as a result of representations by Deputies is concerned, not one of the three Deputies for West Cork, who are not members of the Government Party, is responsible for the employment of a single man on defence works on Bere Island. I propose to quote briefly from a letter received by an individual applicant for employment. One man applied for employment frequently over the last two years and got a reply in identical terms from time to time. It reads:
"I am directed...to refer to your letter of the...regarding employment and to inform you it is regretted that there is no suitable vacancy which could be offered to you."
In that particular case the man was employed by the Admiralty, the predecessors of the present Government on Bere Island, for some years. So far as I can ascertain, he was a competent workman—a workman against whom no complaint whatever existed and one who, in the old days, though in employment with the British Admiralty, risked his employment and liberty by assisting indirectly—as he could—the national cause in this country. That man has found that, though he has received letters of that kind frequently, it has been nothing unusual for him to see, three or four days afterwards, nine or ten men employed.
In the case of another man, he received one letter on the 1st April, 1940, to state that it was regretted there were no vacancies which could be offered to him. That man holds a military certificate, I understand; his brother was connected with the Flying Column in West Cork in the old days; the man himself was on the run during portion of the years 1920 and 1921 and was on of a family exceedingly active and one of the few families who at that time were active in Bere Island in connection with the national struggle. That man has been refused over and over again. He has been told openly the reason—there is no false modesty about the reason in Bere Island—it is because he has declined to join the local branch of the Fianna Fáil Party. If he decided to drop any scruples he has in that respect, there would be no difficulty in securing employment for him immediately.
Another letter is from a man who says he applied on several occasions for employment on the Department of Defence works on Bere Island and on each occasion received a reply in the following terms: they regretted they were unable to offer him any post and could not hold out any hope that they would in the future. Since that, however, between 20 and 30 men have been employed on the works, yet his name has not been included. He states also that the officer in charge of the works would be anxious to make a vacancy for him if the local Fianna Fáil club would nominate him, which they have failed to do. This man has a wife and family and is a reliable workman, and the local view is that he has been badly treated. These letters go on in the same strain and there are quite a number of others. There is one very notable case in the island, who is very deserving of employment and for whom an appeal was made locally by a responsible person on the island to a Government Deputy for West Cork. The answer was that the man would not be employed because "he is not one of our men". Again, the person who gave that answer was quite frank, when he said: "Our own men first; there can be no employment for people of this kind until our own men are placed." There are a certain number of people of that kind who have been completely barred from employment. Another case is that of a man who had the temerity to act as a polling agent for another political Party about two years ago and that indiscretion has cost him employment since. As far as the Department of Defence is concerned, he has not got one day's employment on the works since that time.
I suggest that this is a particularly sordid story. I could understand it if the viewpoint was that, in this matter of employment, the spoils ought to go to the victors. That is the viewpoint in Bere Island. There has been no disguising of that. It seems to have been made perfectly clear to all and sundry that the victors are in possession and that consequently the spoils are theirs. There have been allegations of gross and rank political discrimination in this particular connection. I can only conclude that the Minister is entirely unaware of the facts, in view of the terms of his reply to me to-day. All the inquiries that one can make in this connection—and I invite the Minister to make any inquiries he wishes to make—point to one conclusion, definitely and clearly.
There are certain rather picturesque results arising from this method of selection. Certain people there rank as bricklayers and tradesmen of various kinds. I understand that the local secretary of Fianna Fáil ranks for that purpose as a bricklayer and that his qualifications for that trade are about as complete as my own. He has no knowledge whatever of it: he blossomed into a bricklayer in recent years and holds his position by virtue of the fact that he is the local secretary of Fianna Fáil. It seems to me—and this is again borne out by local enquiries— that when the post was handed over by the British, a completely clean sweep was made of all and every person employed there whose viewpoint was not in accordance with the viewpoint of the present Government.
I have concluded from the evidence I have got before me that the statements I have made are correct. The Minister has a different point of view. I can only suggest that the Minister has been misinformed in this matter and that he has not got the full facts. I suggest that there is one way of getting the facts and proving that the information I got is wrong or, on the other hand, that the Minister has been misinformed; and that that way is by holding some inquiry, to satisfy the local people, who feel they have been completely shut out from any contact with anybody able to obtain fair play and justice in this country. The only way is an inquiry into the whole matter, to find out the facts, to find out why men who are eligible for unemployment assistance cannot get work there, and to find out if the Minister is right or wrong. As I am informed, he is wrong. It is suggested that men employed there must be registered at the labour exchange, but I am informed that a number of people employed there were not registered at the labour exchange, and could not be regarded in any circumstances as eligible for receipt of unemployment assistance. I ask the Minister to have this matter enquired into and to end a state of affairs there, that redounds to the entire discredit of the Department. One can understand—and I think one could pardon—a certain amount of sympathy with political friends in this matter, but nobody could justify a complete sweep of every particle of employment there, to the exclusion of everybody except members of one Party.
There are two branches of Fianna Fáil in Bere Island, and I am informed that all the work available there is divided between a Deputy for the constituency and the local branches, and there is no opportunity for anybody else. That is an intolerable and tyrannical state of affairs, if it exists, and the only way that matter can be examined is by giving publicity to it and then arranging some sort of inquiry into it. I ask now that the Minister institute that inquiry in the interests of fair play. If I am proved wrong, I will apologise very fully for, unwittingly, misleading the House. If the Minister is proved wrong, then his duty as a Minister of State is to put this matter right and to ensure that this sordid chapter in Bere Island is ended.
I should like to show——
The Minister should be allowed ten minutes in which to reply.
I am sorry. I would not delay the House.
The Minister is usually given ten minutes.
I would like to show to the House that, instead of unfair political discrimination in Bere Island, the members of this Party are in a minority in employment.
The Minister says that he will be satisfied with five minutes.
There are really only nine, to my knowledge, who are members of Fianna Fáil, while 13 or 14 belong to the other political Party. I have recommended men to the Minister whom I considered to be suitable for such employment: men who were good men in the past. I want to state definitely that many of those who were given recommendations were men who did not belong to the Party that I represent. I have no apology to offer to anybody for doing that. They were men whom I knew to be good men and reliable men.
I consider it is my duty to recommend to any Department men whom I consider suitable in that respect. That is a privilege that has been used by many members of this House at all times. Apart from the maintenance party in Bere Island, there are men required occasionally for temporary work. Of the total number of men employed at any time I can state very definitely that the members of the Fianna Fáil organisation were always in a minority, and are still. I did not recommend all the men who are working there. I recommended men, irrespective of what Party they belonged to, and I did so because they were good men in the past and are good men now, and, as I have said, I offer no apology for doing that.
I would like to assure Deputy Murphy that the necessity for securing reliable men to work within the precincts of military works did not originate in this Party. It was operated before this Party secured control of Governmental organisations, and it was as necessary then, as it is now, to see that the people employed within the precincts of military works were people upon whom reliance could be placed. It is also correct for me to say that the lists were prepared within the Department of Defence. They were prepared from names submitted by Deputies and by other reliable people such as local councillors, local shopkeepers, or persons of that type. They gave recommendations for employment to certain individuals whom they thought they could strongly recommend. Deputy O'Sullivan is the man who submitted the recommendations to me. I can see no reason why any other Deputy should not have availed of that opportunity as well. Deputies meet me to discuss various subjects. I try to facilitate them all, and there is no reason why they should not do the same on this particular subject if they thought it well to do so. Now, there is no power vested in the O.C. or in the engineering officer to employ any of those men who apply direct to them for work; but there is this power vested in the engineering officer, that if he finds men are unsuitable for the class of work which he wants to engage them on, he need not employ them, and does not, in fact, always employ them, because he does not deem them sufficiently suitable. On that, I hope that in what I am about to say I am not misquoting what Deputy Murphy said. The Deputy made a statement which, if it was intended in the way it was made, would be a slur on the engineering officer on the island, inasmuch as he stated, I think, that there was a bricklayer employed there who was not, in fact, a bricklayer.
That is my information. Further, my information is that the officers there have attempted to get rid of men whom they considered unsuitable, and were ordered by the Department of Defence to retain them.
I can assure the Deputy that that is quite untrue.
I accept the Minister's statement.
I want to say here as definitely as I can that, whenever an officer in a military works—it does not matter in what part of the country— tells me that a man is unsuitable either from the point of view of the work that he is engaged on, or because the officer is suspicious in respect of the man's movements, I have on every single occasion endorsed the view that that man should be removed from the precincts of the military works. I have consistently done that. I want to assure the House, further, that I have never inquired into, and do not intend to inquire into, the politics of any individual whose name is sent forward to me for that particular type of work. I do not want the House to believe for a second that, when Deputy O'Sullivan sends me a recommendation on behalf of some individual, I am going immediately to believe that he is a political opponent of mine. Deputy O'Sullivan has stated to me what he has now repeated in the House, that on a recent occasion four people whose names he sent forward were opponents of his in politics, but they were men who, as he has stated, had given good service in the past, and because they had given good service in the past he did not discriminate between them. In this particular case, the men whose names he sent forward were, in fact, employed. I cannot say whether or not that is a fact, but I am prepared to believe that Deputy O'Sullivan would do that. I do not know whether the House is prepared to agree with me. Deputy Murphy spoke of the difficulty of young men securing employment on the island. It has always been my policy to employ, as far as possible, married men with families, because I think it is a fair and proper policy: the policy of the greater good of the greater number. I have done that, and, as far as I can, I shall always do it.
I do not think any case has been made by the Deputy for a public inquiry into this. If the Deputy can produce evidence to me that is not mere hearsay—what he recited here to-night was something that he heard from somebody else, that somebody else had been told by another person— but if evidence can be produced of any case that should be examined, then I give this guarantee to the House, that I will have it examined. If action has to be taken I can assure the Deputy and the House that I will have no hesitation whatever in taking any necessary action that I should take. I do not think I can go further than that. I stated here last week, arising out of the debate on the question of employment at Haulbowline, that I was prepared to take certain action which was suggested by Deputies in the House. If necessary I am prepared to apply that in this case, too.
Why not in every case?
In every case.
Mr. Morrissey
Is the Minister now referring to the suggestion that labour for all such employment should be taken from the labour exchange, subject to there being a check by the local officer of the Gárda Síochána?
I am quite prepared to agree to that, provided always that the military authorities are also consulted.
Mr. Morrissey
That is very reasonable.
I am quite prepared to do that.
Mr. Morrissey
It would avoid all the trouble that we have here.
If Deputy Murphy has not been entirely misinformed, I am quite certain of this: that a grossly exaggerated case has been made to him in respect to employment at Bere Island. He referred to a case that was the subject of a letter he sent to me. I do not know whether it is fair for me to mention this, but the Deputy did mention the fact that he sent me a letter. If the Deputy desires to talk that over with me, I think I can satisfy him that we had no responsibility whatever for that.
I should like to say that I appreciate the way the Minister has met my case. I hope to be able to give him information that will enable this matter to be ended satisfactorily.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until Thursday, 12th December, 1940, at 3 p.m.