Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Feb 1941

Vol. 81 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Vote 33—Gárda Síochána.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Boland)

I move:—

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £156,487 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1941, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Gárda Síochána including the Taca Síochána (No. 7 of 1925, No. 10 of 1926, No. 5 of 1937 and No. 28 of 1939); and for certain Expenses of the Local Security Force including Grants-in-Aid (No. 28 of 1939).

This Vote is mainly necessary for the provision of expenditure for the Local Security Force. The extra amount required for the Gárda Síochána under sub-head B—Allowances—amounting to £4,000 is mainly due to extra rent allowances. A change in the rent allowances was provided last year and the amount was under-estimated. It was thought that the rent allowance would be between £30 and £40 a year. The maximum in Dublin was £40 a year, and in most cases £40 had to be allowed. Some 78 per cent. of the serving rank and file are married. There is an item of £1,000 for plainclothes allowance, as more men have been employed during the emergency for protection duty of that kind. Under sub-head D—Locomotion Expenses—£2,700 is required. That was due to extra police activity. Car-hire involved £1,700 and £1,000 was for locomotion allowance to officers who used their own cars. Sub-head H— Transport and Carriage—£8,000. That is a big item and is due to increased expenditure in the maintenance and running expenses of Gárda transport, as well as the extra cost of petrol and oil. In Dublin the cost of petrol in bulk rose from 1/3½ to 1/8¼ per gallon, and in barrels from 1/7 to 1/11½, while spare parts increased by 10 per cent. A large proportion of the expense was incurred by Gárda officers doing Local Security work and in going to different parts of the country, organising it. Then there was an increase of cars for protection purposes. These are the items that make up the amount in that sub-head.

The next is sub-head I—Fuel, Light and Water—£5,100. Six months' supply of fuel was provided in advance—two months of that will run into the next financial year—for barracks throughout the country in case of a fuel shortage. That is the biggest item under this heading. As to sub-head K, Escort and Conveyance of Children to Industrial Schools and Places of Detention, £215, of course the expenditure depends on the number of committals which cannot be forecasted accurately, and it amounted to £406 for the year 1939-40. That item was not estimated correctly. As regards sub-head L—Telegrams and Telephones, £8,000—65 Gárda barracks outside Dublin which were not connected with the telephone system have now been connected.

Mr. Linehan

With great benefit to their neighbours.

Mr. Boland

It took the emergency situation to get that done, as we have been trying for some years to have it done. The extra cost is due to the annual rentals and cost of 'phone calls from these stations and an increase in the number of calls generally owing to the emergency conditions and arrangements by which members of the Local Security Force can 'phone police barracks about their duties.

The next item is Subhead N—incidental expenses, £10,690. Of that, £7,960 was for wireless apparatus for communicating with headquarters. Patrol cars in a very large area outside Dublin keep in touch with headquarters by wireless. Unfortunately we had to pay more for that equipment than we thought. There was a delay in getting it, and when we did get it the price had gone up. A sum of £6,482 was voted by Supplementary Estimate last year for this purpose. We could not get the equipment then and, when we did get it it cost the extra money. Also included in the £10,690 is a sum of £2,730 for safes for Gárda superintendents' offices in the country for the purpose of keeping confidential papers. These safes were only supplied in the Dublin offices previously and for a long time we have been trying to get safes provided for the other barracks, so that confidential documents might be securely locked up. These are all the items that concern the Gárda as a whole.

Now we come to the Local Security Force. Under this heading provision is made for expenditure incurred by the Local Security Force, Groups A and B, up to 31st December and also what was formerly called the B Group to 31st March. A sum of £136,182 is included to cover the expenses of the Local Security Force up to and including 31st March, 1941. This amount includes £93,990 for general expenses and £42,192 for grants-in-aid of the funds of the Force. That £42,192 is on a basis of £1 per head capitation grant which has been granted. Already £10,358 had been made available as a grant-in-aid for boots. That has been deducted from the total. As £10,358 has already been paid out, a sum of £42,192 remains to be paid. Under Subhead NN 1, £93,990 is for expenditure on uniforms and equipment, badges, armlets, etc. for A and B Groups up to 31st December, 1940, for expenses in connection with cleaning, heating, lighting and renting of accommodation for training purposes, postage, stationery, and other incidental expenses for Group A up to and including 31st December, 1940 and for the Local Security Force for the current financial year. There will not now be any such thing as A and B Groups. The portion that remains with the Gárda will be called the Local Security Force and the other will be called the Local Defence Force.

Mr. Linehan

Your Department will pay for one and the Department of Defence for the other?

Mr. Boland

The Local Defence Force will be under the control of the military, and the Local Security Force will be under the control of the Gárda.

Mr. Cosgrave

Is the sum under sub-head NN (1) for expenditure in connection with the Force that is now under the Army?

Mr. Boland

The £93,990 is for that Force as well, because these things were provided while they were under the Department of Justice—uniforms, badges, armlets, etc. That item may recur when the uniforms are worn out, but it will come under the Vote for the Department of Defence.

Mr. Linehan

It will not be your responsibility?

Mr. Boland

No. As to sub-head NN (2)—Local Security Force: Capitation Grants (Grants-in-Aid), £42,192, as I explained, that is the balance after having paid £10,358. Then we come to sub-head O—Appropriations-in-Aid, £2,600. That is a payment from the Road Fund, which was £2,600 more than we anticipated. Two per cent. of the sum paid into the Exchequer from the Road Fund in the year ending 31st March, 1940, is paid over to the Gárda Síochána Vote for expenses of the Gárda Síochána in the execution of the Roads Act, 1920, and Road Traffic Act, 1933, and we got £2,600 more than we expected. There was a saving in other sub-heads of £15,800, made up of £10,000, due to the Force being below the strength provided for in the Estimates. Then there was a variable sub-head of £300, and another item of £5,500, as the main issues of unmade clothing are being held over until April, 1941. These are the items that make up the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Linehan

The Minister has mentioned one amazing sum, and that is £2,730 for safes for the custody of official documents. How many chief superintendents and superintendents are there altogether?

Mr. Boland

There are 124.

Mr. Linehan

Then you must have paid £25 each for the safes?

Mr. Boland

They are very substantial ones.

Mr. Linehan

I seriously suggest to the Minister that that is an extraordinarily high price to pay for safes for the custody of official documents in the offices of Garda Superintendents.

Mr. Norton

If the Deputy were to try to buy a safe now he would know what one would cost.

Mr. Linehan

I think if I tried to buy one it would not cost me the sum set down here. I suggest that if the Minister had looked around, or if the officials in his Department had done so, they would have been able to get quite good safes for about £10 each.

Mr. Boland

The safes were purchased for us by the Board of Works, which is very experienced in making purchases of this kind. I do not want to pass "the buck" to any other Department, but the point is that we do not make purchases of this kind.

Mr. Linehan

I think if some firm wanted a number of safes, and got somebody to look around for them, it would be able to get them at a lower price than that mentioned by the Minister. The Minister must admit that the price paid for these 124 safes was an extraordinarily high one.

Mr. Norton

How many were purchased?

Mr. Boland

124.

Mr. Linehan

The price works out at about £25 each.

Mr. Boland

It is well known that there are purchasing departments in the State. They have great experience in these matters. I do not think it would be advisable that we should go out and purchase them.

Mr. Norton

In view of a recent experience I had myself, I do not think you would have got them more cheaply.

Mr. Linehan

There is one other point I would like the Minister to clear up. It concerns the Local Security Force. It is not easy to differentiate between the "A" and "B" groups. Under sub-head NN (1), there is provision for clothing and equipment—the issue of uniforms and armlets to the "A" group. Under sub-head NN (2) provision is made for the expenditure of £42,192. The Minister mentioned the figure of £1 per head. Is that included in this £42,192?

Mr. Boland

That is where it comes from.

Mr. Linehan

The Minister then mentioned the sum of £10,000 for the provision of boots.

Mr. Boland

For the "B" group.

Mr. Linehan

Would the Minister say what money is coming out of this £42,000?

Mr. Boland

This sum of £42,192 is to cover Grants-in-Aid of the funds of the Local Security Force from the 1st January, 1941, on the following basis: (a) payment of an initial Grant-in-Aid of £1 in respect of each person who is certified to have been an enrolled member of the former Group "B" of the Local Security Force on the 31st December, 1940, and who had not on or before the 31st January, 1941, tendered his resignation. The strength of the "B" group, Local Security Force, on the 31st December, 1940, was 52,550, and the Grant-in-Aid of £42,191 represents the payment of £1 per head in respect of these 52,550 men less a deduction of £10,358, the amount already advanced to purchase the 13,811 pairs of boots for the "B" group. This is the point that I want to bring out: that the Grants-in-Aid are intended to assist in the payment of the following items of expenditure, and they will be supplemented by any funds that may be raised locally by members of the Force. There is: (1) grants for the purchase of or repairs of boots for members in necessitous circumstances; there are a great many such; (2) rent of halls or other necessary accommodation and cost of fuel, light and cleaning; (3) cost of transport where the use of transport is duly authorised; (4) postage, stationery, telegrams and telephones (except where telephone facilities are made available by the Gárda Síochána or by the Army) for official purposes; (5) such other purposes as may be authorised by the Minister for Justice. The Minister for Justice will have a discretion as to whether he thinks there is a necessity for authorising expenditure in regard to particular items. I think that covers all the points raised.

Mr. Linehan

I am very glad the Minister has made all this clear in his statement. An extraordinary impression was apparently created in the minds of some people through the country. Listening to them one would think that the Minister was introducing this Supplementary Estimate to meet an entirely different set of circumstances. How the idea got about I do not know, but somebody told somebody else that every man who was a member of the "B" group on the 30th January, 1940, was to get £1.

Mr. Boland

That is not so.

Mr. Linehan

That is what was said in the country.

Mr. L.J. Walsh

That view is not general throughout the country.

Mr. Linehan

I know that quite a number of people held that view. Some one did a very wrong thing in telling members of the "B" group in various districts that surprise meetings were to be called for a certain night at the end of January: that they were to be visited by an officer of the Gárda Síochána in the locality, and that everyone who attended the meeting would get £1. What, I think, happened was, some people went round and said to others that, while they had been very regular in their attendances at meetings in the last six months, they were unlucky to miss the meeting on the previous Friday night, because those who attended were to get £1. I am glad that the Minister has cleared up this matter with regard to Capitation Grants (Grants-in-Aid) for the Local Security Force. The note to the sub-head states that the provision is required for Capitation Grants to district funds of the Local Security Force, and that these funds will be administered in accordance with directions given by the Minister. This money then is going to be utilised for defence purposes.

Mr. Boland

It is merely a grant-in-aid to whatever funds a district may collect itself, and is on the basis of £1 for each man enrolled.

Mr. Linehan

That is to say that it is fixed according to the number of men in the Force, and is not going to be handed out to individuals. In conclusion, all I have to say is that the introduction of the Supplementary Estimate reflects what a big change has taken place in this country. Imagine how nice and mild all the Opposition Parties here to-day are. But can anyone imagine what the present Minister for Justice would have to say if some Minister came along ten years ago and introduced a Supplementary Estimate for the Gárda Síochána for £156,000. What is wrong with the world at all?

Mr. Boland

There is a big war on.

Mr. Linehan

I do not believe that wars, calamities, catastrophies, or even the end of the world would satisfy the Minister for Justice ten or 12 years ago if some Minister came into this House and tried to justify the introduction of a supplementary estimate for the Gárda Síochána of £156,000. I am sure the Minister must feel a very happy man since he is able to get away with it, and that no one worries him.

Mr. Cosgrave

I would not like to accuse the Minister of rushing the Estimate, but it has very much that appearance. There is a very considerable item for transport charges. Most of the machines employed are very high powered cars, and consequently there is a big consumption of petrol. Their initial cost is high and their running costs are high. At a time when a great many people in the country are anxious to get petrol, there ought to be a lead from the State as regards economising in the use of petrol. I seriously suggest to the Minister the desirability of purchasing only 10 h.p. cars in future. You can get a very good 10 h.p. Ford car. It may take some time before you are able to get that standard all through the service, but it is a matter that ought to receive the Minister's attention. I wonder if the Minister received within the last 12 months or two years a very courteous communication from someone in Providence, Rhode Island, U.S.A.?

It appears that the casualty list for motor traffic there was so high that everybody was concerned to find a solution of the problem. The Chief of Police made the experiment of starting two cars simultaneously through the city with a run of about three miles. One car was instructed to disobey all police instructions, traffic lights, and so on, while the other car was to obey every regulation and to travel at 20 miles an hour. In the three miles, there was a difference of less than half a minute in the time of the two cars with the result that they brought in a regulation restricting the speed of cars in that city to something like 25 miles an hour and the casualty list diminished almost to vanishing point. It may be held that the smaller powered cars are not fast enough, but I suppose the Minister has sufficient experience of motoring to know that the difference in time in getting from one place to another is not commensurate with the risks involved in going fast.

The other point is in connection with the clothing and equipment of the Local Security Force. The clothing does not appear to be weatherproof, and I wonder if the Minister has considered the advisibility of having it waterproofed. It may cost a little more, but it is advisable, in the interests of the health of these who are so generously giving their time and their attention in the public service at present, that every precaution should be taken to ensure that their clothing is waterproof. My second point in this connection is in regard to the cap. I do not know whether it was an artist who designed it, or a person accustomed to being in a penal settlement. The cap has all the appearance of having been modelled on what would be seen in Portland or Dartmoor.

Mr. Boland

The Deputy wore one himself once, I think.

Mr. Cosgrave

It is neither comfortable nor useful, and the question is what was the purpose of the design. If the uniform be meant for active service—and I presume that must have been at the back of somebody's mind when the uniform was first considered —the obvious headdress would be a tin hat.

Mr. Boland

I agree, if it were possible to get enough, but that is the trouble.

Mr. Cosgrave

Would it not be worth while to wait? What use would the present cap be? If one considers incendiary bombs, would there not be a much better chance of a portion of such an engine of destruction hopping off a tin hat than in the case of the beautiful headdress the Minister has perpetrated in connection with this uniform? Would it not be advisable to have some sort of guard around the face and head? It was discovered in the first or second year of the Great War, that British soldiers were subject to a much greater number of casualties than the Germans, because the German hats were protective while the British hats were decorative, and, even if the tin hats cost money, would it not be advisable to pay some regard to the safety of those engaged in this work? So that the Minister will not be under any misapprehension, my first point is 10 horse-power Ford cars, and none other; secondly, the waterproofing of the uniforms, and the issuing of no more of these peculiar boat-shaped hats, but to wait until you got tin hats. The difficulty in connection with the tin hat, I presume, is the metal itself. Has any effort been made to collect the metal, or can old tin be used again? Would it not be possible to get some sort of metal and to have it chromium-plated, so that it would be of some use? My third point is in connection with boots.

Mr. Boland

On that point, the position, so far as I recollect it, is that the intention was to grant 15/- as a grant-in-aid towards the purchase of boots. If a man wished to buy a 25/- pair of boots, 15/- would be advanced towards their purchase. I understand that that is what is being done.

Mr. Cosgrave

In some cases they have been issued, and I was wondering whether there is a stock boot or not.

Mr. Boland

It must have been done locally. It was not done officially.

Mr. Cosgrave

Again, on the point of the health of the persons in this Force, has a rubber boot been considered at all? According to returns, every second day, on an average, is a wet day here, and if these men have to operate in fields—I do not know whether the Minister ever looks at a field nowadays or not——

Mr. Boland

Indeed I do.

Mr. Cosgrave

——in practically every one of which there are loughs of water, no ordinary boot, and certainly not the boots I have seen, although they are very big and strong, would stand very much of it. Even if extra pairs were supplied, which the men could throw across their shoulders and put on when required, it might be a solution. I do think that if these men are to be employed on night-watching, looking for incendiary bombs, or anything of that sort, it is absolutely essential that they should have tin hats.

Mr. Corry

In the first place, bad and all as the uniforms are, 50 per cent. of the men are not yet supplied with them, and if we had an emergency in the morning, we could call out only 50 per cent. of the Local Defence Force. That is the position in my area. Secondly, these are the cheapest soldiers in the world. They are soldiers for nothing. They are costing the country nothing, and the least they might expect is that the State would give them decent uniforms, a decent overcoat, or something to keep out the cold and rain, a decent hat and, at least, a pair of boots per man. At present the issue of boots is one pair to every six men. At least, the 63 men under my control have 12 pairs of boots between them.

Mr. Boland

Could the Deputy tell me whether any requests for a grant-in-aid have been turned down?

Mr. Corry

Yes, for boots.

Mr. Boland

And turned down?

Mr. Corry

We are told that was all that was to be got. I sent forward at least three applications for boots as group leader in the district, and the total number of boots served out was 12 pairs for 63 men. As to the 15/- grant, unfortunately the boots cost only 15/6 and all we got was 11/3. The Government paid only three-quarters of the purchase price and did not even give the 15/-.

Mr. Linehan

Why did you not buy boots at £1 a pair and make them pay 15/-?

Mr. Corry

We got good boots, although we got them cheap. We were not clever enough to put a few "bob" extra on them and draw the full amount, with the result that the local people had to pay for them. These men are the cheapest the State has. The State has soldiers for nothing. These men are producing food in the fields for the country's needs by day and they are the Minister's soldiers by night. I have seen them out on wild nights with hardly a bit of covering except something between the threads of which you could almost throw a dog. A slight shower would go through it. Not 50 per cent. of the men in the Local Security Forces have even uniforms. We have 25 uniforms amongst 63 men. I am giving the facts as I know them. If there were an emergency in the morning and these men had to be called out, you would have no uniforms to give them. As regards the cap, that is a joke. I remember when members of the Local Security Force went up for training to Collins Barracks. They had to go round and chalk a number on them. The uniforms and the whole turnout was next door to a convict uniform. It was unfair to serve out anything like it to men who are serving the State for nothing. These uniforms might be all right in Central Africa, where men would only want something to cover their nakedness, but they should not be served to men who may be called out on duty in this country. These men should, in the first place, get some decent uniform; in the second place, they should get overcoats and, in the third place, a pair of boots per man and not have this concession confined, as was stated in the circular sent to us, to the needy members. They are all needy cases from what I saw. You have unfortunate labouring men, earning a pittance from the farmers, turning out without even a pair of boots to their feet to tramp the roads and fields at night.

That is unfair and unjust to a section of the community which deserves better from the State. These men are giving their services voluntarily. They should be given some decent thing to put on their heads and to keep out a shower of rain, instead of a convict's cap, and they should be given a pair of boots. The State is not so far gone that it cannot afford to give unpaid troops a pair of boots per man. That is the position, as I know it, and I suggest that it be remedied at once.

Colonel Ryan

I do not agree at all with Deputy Corry, because I think that the least expense possible should be incurred in connection with these voluntary forces until such time as they are brought under some control. At present, they are loose ends of either the Department of Justice or the Department of Defence. There is need of provision of some kind for certain men in both these forces, and that can only be done by the disbursement locally of moneys from the Department. There is hardly any use in saying that men in the Local Security Forces must be provided with boots, uniforms, overcoats and other things. They do not even want them, but the trouble is that, if boots are provided, some men do not like to take them because others are not provided with them. The Minister for Defence and the Minister for Justice ought to consider seriously dealing with this matter from the local point of view instead of by order from here. You cannot deal with men in two or three parishes by order from here without antagonising them or hurting their feelings, even though there may be necessity for supplying them with boots or other things. Both Ministers ought to consult the Army chiefs and the local officers as to how they would dispense overcoats or caps or boots.

As regards the uniform, I can see no objection to it at all. Deputy Corry says that the heads of the members of these forces get wet. The ordinary uniform will, certainly, satisfy these soldiers of the State if it is necessary for them to go into action. If, in the "B" Force there is one section which does not want boots and another which does, the Minister should secure that those who receive boots will not feel under an obligation to the State. I should like the Minister to do that in such a way that the recipients would not feel that they were a type of pauper in the movement. I do not agree with Deputy Corry that all the members should be provided with this, that, and the other thing. If it is necessary to provide some things, we should do so but we should not ask for more than we want.

Mr. L.J. Walsh

I do not think that it is right that this debate should take place in the atmosphere of complaint created by Deputies from Cork. The Local Security Forces in my district have no such complaints as we heard here to-night. We created a voluntary fund, and we were made aware that there would be a contribution from the Exchequer to augment that fund. What we did—and it worked very satisfactorily—was: we invited anybody who required boots or overcoats to make application, and we dealt with these applications. I feel it to be my duty to tell the House how we operated in connection with the Local Security Force.

There is one other point to which I should like to refer. Deputy Cosgrave suggested that rubber boots be substituted for leather boots. Personally, I would prefer the sound, solid boots, and I am sure a great many others would also prefer them. I feel that that is the view of most of the people who will be supplied with boots. I would ask the Minister, if it is a question of making an order with regard to boots, that it should be voluntary, and that the men should have a choice as to whether they would take ordinary marching boots or rubber boots.

Mr. Boland

I do not think the members of the Local Security Force will be thankful to Deputy Corry for the line he has taken in this matter. He seems to forget that this Force was established in a very great hurry, when it was a question of putting people into some sort of uniform. I quite agree that it is not anything like a becoming uniform, but we were faced with the situation that we had the Army increased to three times its strength, and we had to get cloth and uniforms made for the Army. We had to accept anything we could get for the Local Security Force. It was not a question of cheapness, although that was a consideration, too, when we were dealing with something like 150,000 men, including the A and B Sections. We had to get them in a hurry, and if anyone will just go back to the atmosphere at the time the Force was started, he will realise that we did not know the moment we would have to meet anyone who might attempt to invade the country. We had to make some attempt to put them into uniform. Consequently, we did the best we could on the occasion, and, I must say, it is the first time I have heard any complaint. They are not becoming.

I agree with Deputy Cosgrave that that cap is reminiscent of what we saw in Portland or Dartmoor. I was not there when he was there. They are just like the Glengarry a convict was served out with. We were in a war situation and we could not pick and choose. The element of price, I suppose, did enter into it, but I can assure Deputies it was only a secondary consideration. We had to take what we could get, and those in the regular Army had to be clothed with the best cloth we could get. I am quite sure, if this emergency is to last, the Minister for Finance will not object if the authorities are able to get a better uniform, including coats, for the Local Security Force, but Deputies ought not to forget the circumstances under which we had to undertake this collosal job. I think it is simply amazing that so many men were put into any sort of uniform at all in such a short time. They are not all in uniform. About 57,261 uniforms have been issued. I think I am right in saying that that is as much as the factories that were available were able to turn out. I think that is the explanation. We had to mobilise all the available factories, which were not engaged on other work for the Army, to do this work. The reason they all have not got their uniforms is the reason I have given. I do not think there was any discrimination. I do not know what procedure was adopted in issuing them. I have an idea—I may be wrong—that where Ministers were going to review them they may have got them before others. That may be the case, and it would be quite understandable. In any case, that is all the uniforms that have been issued so far and, as to the kind of uniform, that, I am satisfied, will be settled. I believe they will get a more substantial uniform. I believe the Minister for Finance or anyone else in the Government will not object. I think no member of the Local Security Force is going to thank Deputy Corry for making the sort of remark he did make.

Mr. Corry

I commented on the cap and the Minister bore me out.

Mr. Boland

The Deputy ought to remember the circumstances in which we were placed at the time these uniforms were designed. People of all classes of society have worn them, and all I have ever heard expressed on their part was a pride that they were in some form of uniform and that they were in a position to give some sort of national service in a crisis.

With regard to the boots, Deputy Ryan and Deputy Walsh said it was a volunteer force. So it is. Amongst the members are people who would not require boots. Everybody is giving all he can. If a man is prepared to lay his life down for a cause, that is the thing that counts. If one happens not to be as well situated financially as another that is no fault of his. His sacrifice is not less than the sacrifice of the man who has more. As it is a volunteer movement, one in which everybody feels impelled to defend the country in its hour of danger, there should be no question of what one man got and what another man did not get. I am quite certain that if every member of the Local Security Force puts in a request for boots he will get them. I made a mistake when I said 15/- was being granted. That was our proposal and I did not keep sufficiently in touch with what really happened. We thought 15/- would be about 75 per cent. of what a serviceable pair of boots would cost. Apparently, when bought in bulk they are cheaper. The Department of Finance said 75 per cent. up to a maximum of 15/- was the grant-in-aid they would give. That is all right because the balance will be retained in the Local Security Force fund and will be there for other purposes.

Mr. L.J. Walsh

Have we an assurance that you are not going to make it obligatory on us to wear rubber boots?

Mr. Boland

I am going to deal with Deputy Cosgrave afterwards. I want to protest against this. I think Deputy Corry should not have taken the line he did. It is most annoying and there is no foundation for it. He suggested that there was some sort of discrimination in regard to his particular area.

Mr. Corry

I made no such suggestion.

Mr. Boland

The Deputy said people were refused boots or did not get them. If they did not get them it was merely because the boots were not there. There is no question of anything of that kind at all. Every unit in the Local Security and Local Defence Forces is treated alike. There may be some areas in which trouble may be expected before others from an invasion point of view. Deputy Corry's area may be one of these. I am surprised they are not better equipped, but there is no such thing as discrimination against anybody and I am satisfied the people in charge have done their best to meet any demands as quickly as they could. We were limited to the output the factories could give us.

Colonel Ryan

Is it not a fact that any person who wants boots or who the local people think wants them, gets 75 per cent. if he pays the 25 per cent.?

Mr. Boland

That is right—75 per cent. of the cost will be granted, up to a maximum of 15/- I was wrong when I said the 15/- was given. A profit could be made in that way, of course. Deputy Cosgrave raised a number of points about the 10 horse-power cars. That was not in regard to the Local Security Force but in regard to the Gárda. I will put that up to the Minister for Finance. I am sure the Deputy does not expect us to get these now.

Mr. Linehan

He said to absorb them.

Mr. Boland

Absorb them, yes. We will see. Of course, Deputy Cosgrave was referring to emergency conditions, but I am sure he would not expect the Guards to be in a 10 horse-power car when a man who had just robbed a bank had a 30 horse-power car. Fast cars would be required to catch some of these people. I put it to him that that is a consideration that must not be overlooked. You might be putting the Guards into cars that could not travel as fast as the fastest car made. Modern crime is done very quickly very often. The Deputy may not have thought of that. Of course, as far as petrol is concerned, it would be a saving, and I will have the matter examined. He also referred to waterproofing the uniforms. I do not think that would be desirable at all; I think it would be unhealthy. We are providing, I think, about 10,000 waterproof capes which would serve as ground sheets when men who have not waterproofs are going out at night. We are getting out as many of those as we can, and are trying to meet the position in that way. In regard to tin hats, we are making arrangements with the Army to provide 7,000 of those tin hats for certain scheduled A.R.P. areas. I do not think we would be able to get sufficient to cover the whole lot, but, as far as we can do it, it will be done. The Army will naturally have the first claim, because normally they would be the first to be called upon—they may not be the first in some places—but after that we will try to do the best we can.

Mr. Linehan

Has the Minister considered at all what was done, I think, in England? Where tin hats were not available, some type of fibre hat was being produced very cheaply, which was supposed to be very effective against splinter and blast?

Mr. Boland

The military are now looking into all those matters, but the hurry in which those things were done must be borne in mind.

Mr. Linehan

I merely mentioned it because it was mentioned to me.

Mr. Boland

I do not think rubber boots would be very practical unless the men were working in a water-logged place, when they would get a special issue of that particular type of boot. I do not think the men could march in rubber boots.

Mr. Linehan

They would kill them.

Mr. Boland

In every army, I think, they have heavy leather boots. Deputy Linehan talked about how decent the Opposition were to let us have all this money. In reality, £136,182 of the main Vote, that is almost the whole of it, was for local defence. It is not really a Civic Guard Vote in the ordinary sense at all.

Mr. L.J. Walsh

Do I understand that we have not got to wear rubber boots at all?

Mr. Linehan

The Minister said they need not be worn.

Vote agreed to.