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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Jul 1941

Vol. 84 No. 14

Estimates for Public Services. Committee on Finance. - Vote 73—Emergency Scientific Research Bureau.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £8,000 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1942, chun Oifig Thaighde Eolaíochta Ré na Práinne, maraon le Deontas-igCabhair.

That a sum not exceeding £8,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1942, for the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau, including a Grant-in-Aid.

Deputies will recollect that the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau, which was set up on the 20th February last, was financed up to the 31st March by means of a new Estimate for £1,450. The contemplated outlay for the whole of the current year is £12,000.

As I explained when last year's Estimate was before the Dáil, the bureau is an advisory body attached to the Department of the Taoiseach, and has been established by the Government in view of the restrictions arising from the emergency on imports of essential commodities and raw materials. It will deal primarily with the technical problems involved in the provision of substitute processes and materials during the period of the emergency.

Its terms of reference are as follows:—

(1) To give technical advice to the Government on such special problems relating to industrial processes and the use of substitute materials as may be referred to it.

(2) To advise the Government generally on the use of native or other materials to meet the deficiencies caused by the restriction of imported raw materials and commodities.

(3) To direct or conduct special researches and inquiries connected with the above.

This emergency body was not intended to take over the ordinary duties and functions of the Industrial Research Council. It was intended solely to investigate promptly and advise on exceptional problems which demand immediate attention in the circumstances of the moment arising out of the interruption of our normal supplies. It was not intended that its investigations should be on a long term basis, but rather that it should confine itself to difficulties which there are grounds for hoping can be overcome either partially or wholly within a reasonable time.

For some time past, and before the foundation of the bureau, the question of the reorganisation of industrial research has been under consideration, but, to give effect to this, new legislation would probably be necessary, and this would require a good deal of preparation and would take an appreciable time to complete, particularly as most of the Departments which would be concerned are fully engaged on other emergency work. It is in these circumstances that it has been decided to set up an ad hoc body, rather than to make use of the Industrial Research Council, which, as at present constituted, is not well adapted to deal with the immediate problems confronting the State.

The Estimate itself is divided into two sub-heads. Sub-head A provides for honoraria and incidental expenses. The honoraria, which are at the rate of £300 a year for each of the five members of the bureau, amount to £1,500, and the incidental expenses, which include travelling expenses, etc., for members of the bureau, amount to £500. The second sub-head B is a grant-in-aid of investigation and research and amounts to £10,000. This sum is intended to cover all outlay in connection with investigations and researches, including remuneration, travelling expenses and subsistence allowances of investigators, purchase or hire of equipment, and so on.

Since its institution the bureau has set on foot investigations covering a very wide field. As many of them—in fact most of them—are at present incomplete, I do not propose to refer to them in detail. The Dáil may, however, wish to have a general outline of the matters which are under consideration. Particular attention has been given to the production of alternatives to petrol for road transport. These investigations are concerned in the main with the manufacture of fuel for producer plants. Experimental work is also being undertaken for the purpose of improving the efficiency of producer plants themselves. A scheme for the manufacture of turf charcoal as a fuel for producer plants is under active consideration. Carbonisation experiments on turf are being carried out at the Dublin and Dundalk gas works, but the results so far have been disappointing. It has been decided, however, to continue the experiments in view of the importance of the problem. Information has also been collected on the use of town gas and by-products from gas manufacture as alternatives to petrol for road transport. As regards town gas itself, the production of which depends on imported coal, of which future supplies cannot be assured, an investigation is proceeding into the possibility of utilising wood or peat as substitutes for the imported material. Experiments are also proceeding in regard to the regeneration of used lubricating oils, which are, of course, essential to a greater or lesser degree in every industry.

Successful experiments have been carried out on the production of certain materials necessary for the tanning industry—materials which can no longer be imported. The possibilities of seaweed and kelp as sources of various materials likely to be in short supply are being examined. The bureau has also examined the possibility of the use of sewage sludge as manure, and has reported that this material has little or no value as a fertiliser. The question of the manufacture of pulp for paper making is also under examination.

An endeavour is also being made to utilise native sources of supplies of sulphur dioxide, starch, glucose, gelatine and certain acids used in the manufacture of confectionery, and there is a prospect of getting some of the country's needs of these commodities. Arrangements have been made to carry out an investigation on the value of effluents from certain textile factories, with a view to seeing whether it can be usefully recovered. Assistance is being given in the manufacture of carbon dioxide for mineral waters, and at least one well-known firm which was about to close down for lack of supplies of this gas will now be able to continue production. Problems relating to a number of other matters have also been examined by the bureau; for example: soap making, meat extracts, refrigeration, textiles, ropes, cutlery, matches and so on.

Members of the bureau are in constant touch with the Department of Supplies and the Department of Industry and Commerce, and are attending conferences with representatives of various industries which are being organised by the former Department. In addition, the bureau has interviewed representatives of numerous firms in connection with their individual problems. In conclusion, I should like to warn the House not to expect sensational results from the work of the bureau. At best, it can only assist in the production of substitutes for imported materials, and the extent to which it can do this is restricted in many cases by reason of the fact that our native resources in many commodities are strictly limited.

Can we get any information regarding the operations of this body in respect of other work than merely synthetic experiments? For example, we are now exporting some goods from this country which were not formerly exported, preserved foods and so on, and the containers for certain of those commodities which we export have been stated by some people to be unsuitable. It is important to ensure that our exports should be kept up to a high standard, and it would be very unfortunate if, by reason of the shortage of materials which were formerly available, the standard of our exports should fall. The principal one which has been mentioned to me was eggs; the second was meats, either cooked or uncooked, in containers. I am particularly interested in ensuring that the standard of our exports from this country should be maintained.

I take it that the work on which the bureau has so far been engaged is that of searching for substitutes. The Minister mentioned that they had examined sludge, and found it was not useful as a fertiliser. There are parts of the country where the soil is very light, and other parts where there is practically no soil at all. Would he consider whether it is a practical proposition to carry the sludge to those places? In the normal course of events, it might be a practical proposition to incur the transport charges, but surely even at the moment there may be occasions upon which rolling stock might be going empty to parts of the country, and it may be possible to come to some arrangement with the carrying companies to transport the sludge on those occasions. It is almost inconceivable that sludge would not be of some value. Even if it is not used as a fertiliser, it ought to be available for such places as cut-away bogs, and other places of that kind.

Mr. Byrne

Would the Taoiseach tell us whether there has been any development in connection with the Drumm Battery? Personally, I believe that this fund is a starved fund. Having regard to the fact that it was recently announced in the newspapers that the Drumm train would continue to run while other trains are being put off, I would ask the Minister whether he would consider it advisable to make a little more money available for research work in regard to the Drumm Battery. Personally, I do not think we are using to the full the brains of those who can and who would be engaged in research.

I am not particularly informed about the case with regard to containers for our produce, which has been referred to by Deputy Cosgrave. I shall get in touch immediately with the Minister for Agriculture to find out if there are any difficulties in that particular direction which might possibly be overcome by examination by the research bureau. As I say, I do not know what is the exact position, and the Minister for Agriculture, undoubtedly, would be able to let me know if there is anything of a practical character that can be done by the bureau. If there is anything that can be done, there is no reason why the bureau should not be asked to examine the matter.

With regard to Deputy Byrne's reference to the Drumm train, that does not come in here directly under this particular Vote. I do not think it is true to say that it has been starved for funds. My information is that the State has been very generous in giving funds for the possible development of that particular experiment. It is a matter, I suggest, that the Deputy had better take up with the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I do not think there was any question of giving up investigations or experiments on that, at any particular stage, through want of funds.

Mr. Byrne

And the investigations will continue?

Well, I am not giving any promise as to that. After all, as far as the Research Bureau is concerned, it was set up to deal with problems arising immediately out of the war, and not to deal with what you might call long-term problems. It seems obvious to me, at any rate, that the sums spent in regard to the Drumm experiment were sufficiently large, and spread over a sufficiently long time, to examine the possibilities of anything being done normally, and I think these possibilities have been reasonably examined. However, I am not passing judgment one way or the other. That is a matter on which the Minister for Industry and Commerce would be much more competent than I to inform the Deputy and the House. I could get the information for the Deputy, but I think it would be better for him to have the information direct from the Minister concerned. My own impression, however, is that we have not stinted that experiment and that the State has been generous in giving every opportunity to it.

Mr. Byrne

My point was this: that having spent so much and got so far and met with such success, it might be worth while to continue the investigations.

Well, it is a nice matter of judgment, as the Deputy will realise, to decide how far you have got and whether there is any use in going further or not, or whether it would be wasting money to pursue the matter further. There is bound to be a difference of opinion in matters of that sort. Before I could pass judgment on that, I should have to give a great deal more consideration to it than is possible within the few minutes that I have at my disposal. I do think, however, that it was wise to establish this bureau. Wherever research is concerned you can never predict that you will have this result or that result. The one thing is, that you are satisfied that an effort has been made, and that you did not sit down with your hands in your pockets and made no effort to see whether this is possible or that is possible, and any line that seems to offer any reasonable possibilities will be investigated by the bureau in regard to any matter.

There is another thing that is happening in connection with the various problems that would call for scientific information and knowledge. These problems are gradually coming in, and there is no doubt that the men who are members of that bureau, and the records of the bureau, will finally have a great deal of valuable information, even for the future, and if the bureau did not function in some other way afterwards, all that material would be made available for industrial research or for whatever organisation would be continued in normal times. Its present purpose, however, is to help us in our present difficulties.

Mr. Byrne

Have any research investigations been going on regarding substitutes for petrol?

Yes, there have been. I have read for the House the main line of research, which is to see to what extent it is possible to improve producer plants; for instance, producer gas, and so on, and then to try to get native fuel for these producer plants. If there were sufficient quantities of anthracite, for instance, that would be one form, but we are trying peat, particularly, with a view to seeing what can be got by way of the carbonisation of peat, since that is a fuel that we have in the largest quantities. As I have said, however, so far the success has not been in any way marked. One thing we can all be satisfied about now, which we could not be satisfied about before this, is that we have scientists at work trying to use their brains to solve our difficulties with the knowledge that they have. It would be worng, I think, to have problems, such as those with which we are faced, and not to have harnessed some of the best minds towards the solution of these problems.

Vote put and agreed to.
Progress reported; Committee to sit later to-day.
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