Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Dec 1941

Vol. 85 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 65-External Affairs.

Minister for External Affairs (The Taoiseach)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £10 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh Márta, 1942, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Gnóthaí Eachtracha agus Seirbhísí áirithe atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin (Uimh. 16 de 1924).

That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1942, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for External Affairs, and of certain Services administered by that Office (No. 16 of 1924).

This Estimate provides for the new Legation which it is proposed to establish at Lisbon. The provision proposed is on almost exactly the same lines as that made in the case of our Legation in Switzerland. I do not think the Estimate provides any special feature to which I need draw the attention of Deputies. The present Vote is merely for a token amount because it will be possible to meet the cost of this Legation for the rest of the present financial year out of savings on the Principal Vote. The provision for a full year would amount to about £2,000.

I am sure there will be general satisfaction that we are to have this direct contact with Portugal. Portugal is a neighbouring country. In certain respects, her geographical situation and her attitude in relation to the present conflict are similar to our own and, no doubt, the problems which confront the two countries, particularly at the present time, have also many points of resemblance. We have all heard of the great advance which Portugal has made under the leadership of her present Premier, Dr. Salazar. The progressive and Christian manner in which the Portuguese Government is handling its economic and other domestic problems has attracted attention and admiration throughout the world and not least, I think, in this country. I think it right and proper that these two countries should have direct diplomatic relations and I have no doubt that the closer contact will prove useful and valuable to us. At the present time there are special reasons why this should be so. Lisbon is now a main junction on our communication with the outside world. It is the terminus of the air service from Foynes, some of our boats are calling there fairly frequently and even at the present moment we have a number of our nationals stranded there awaiting the making of arrangements for their return to this country. Lisbon is also important in connection with our supplies. Deputies are aware. I think, that some of our cargoes from overseas are shipped to Portugal in the first instance and are then loaded into those of our ships which are not in a position to face Atlantic crossings. All this makes it desirable and indeed necessary that we should have a representative in Portugal. Especially under present conditions, travel and shipping depend to a great extent on consular services, and whenever there is a large body of Irish interests requiring such services as there are in Portugal at the moment, it is fitting that we should provide a representative of our own to whom our nationals can turn for protection and assistance when they require it.

In these various ways, I am sure the new Legation in Portugal will amply justify itself and I, therefore, ask the House to vote this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

I have no doubt that the announcement of the establishment of diplomatic relations with Portugal will give satisfaction to every element of our society. The Minister for External Affairs has referred to the bonds of sympathy which must naturally exist between our country and Portugal and the fact that these are being further strengthened by diplomatic relation is something which, I am sure, will be welcome to us all.

There are a few details in connection with the proposed diplomatic exchange which I would like to have clarified. One is, who our representative is to be, and whether we may expect the Portuguese Government to honour us by sending a Portuguese Minister to this country, and, if so, when? Secondly, I would like to inquire whether it is intended to provide consular services at Lisbon? I heard no mention made specifically in the statement made by the Minister for External Affairs of an Irish consulate in Lisbon.

As the Minister no doubt will realise, with the passage of Irish trade through Lisbon at the present time there do arise peculiar problems, to which the Minister for Supplies made reference to-day at question time, such as the exceptional insurance of cargoes which had to lie at Lisbon for a period longer than that covered by the normal policy of marine insurance. If we had effective consular representation in Lisbon, it occurs to me that some more economical method of insuring those cargoes might be operated by our consular service, just as in America our consular service has been used to assist heirs and beneficiaries under wills to recover what they are entitled to, without the ordinary expensive process of law.

Finally, I wish to subscribe very cordially to the words of praise uttered by the Minister for External Affairs in relation to the Christian economic policies of Dr. Salazar and to inquire if the Minister will familiarise himself with those policies which he has so highly praised, and in which I am so happy to second him, because I think he will find that the foundation stone upon which they are built is the profound conviction frequently enunciated by Dr. Salazar that economic self-sufficiency is inconsistent with Christian economics or with the intelligent progress of any sane country in the world.

The Taoiseach

I would like to get the texts of those policies.

An Ceann Comhairle

I should object to having those matters argued on this Vote.

Mr. Dillon

If we are to pay tributes to Dr. Salazar's policies, let us know what those policies are.

An Ceann Comhairle

Not on this Vote.

Mr. Dillon

Let us at least dismiss the implication that Salazar's policies are de Valera's policies and that when we praise Salazar what we are really doing is patting de Valera on the head, because if there are two men in Europe further apart——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is obviously far outside the Vote.

Mr. Dillon

I hope our encomiums upon the policies pursued by the present Prime Minister of Portugal are informed encomiums, because, if they are, then I hope for economic sanity in this country again.

Mr. Norton

I wonder if the Minister for External Affairs will tell us, in connection with the establishment of this office in Portugal, how many Irish citizens are in Portugal at the present time, and if he has any information as to the volume of our trade passing through Portugal—that is, the volume of trade between this country and Portugal in ordinary times and the volume which is now routed via Portugal. Perhaps he can tell us what steps are being taken to assist Irish citizens who may be stranded in Lisbon and whether any efforts have been made to ensure for them transport by ships from Portugal to wherever they want to go, or transport by air services from Lisbon. I understand that a number of Irish citizens stranded in Lisbon find it almost impossible to get shipping space or seats in aircraft leaving Lisbon and that they are pretty helpless there.

If the Minister feels like following the advice of Deputy Dillon and looks into the economic policies of Dr. Salazar in Portugal, I suggest that he might pursue his studies a little further and examine the beneficial activities of the New Zealand Government, under whose policy agricultural workers are receiving £3 12s. 6d. a week and old age pensioners get 30/- a week at the age of 60 years.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's remarks are not in order.

Mr. Norton

They are as much in order as the Taoiseach was in talking about Dr. Salazar.

An Ceann Comhairle

Surely, when the Taoiseach was moving a Vote for the establishment of a representative in Lisbon, it was not out of place for him to pay tribute to the Prime Minister of Portugal.

Mr. Norton

His policies he was talking about.

Mr. Dockrell

I thought that with the change in the policy of the United States about sending shipping into these waters, the Taoiseach would more or less have hoped that the necessity of bringing goods to Lisbon, dumping them there and then transshipping them would be done away with. I quite realise that circumstances may be too strong for him and that until all the goods are cleared from there consular representation will be necessary. I should like to know whether the Taoiseach or the Minister for Supplies is responsible for the present system in the United States by which goods have to be paid for when they are merely brought alongside the wharf. That is a departure from the ordinary procedure.

An Ceann Comhairle

It seems to be also a departure from this Vote.

Mr. Dockrell

I suggest to the Taoiseach, as head of the Government, that this is such a major matter it might be looked into. I take it from the attitude of the Chair that this is considered to be a matter for the Minister for Supplies.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not relevant to this Vote, and it is not for the Chair to say what Department it relates to.

Mr. Dockrell

I see in this Vote an item for a shorthand-typist. The explanation is that this is only for portion of the year. I take it that that would be for an Irish national and that there would be nothing to debar Irish nationals abroad from wishing to transfer to the service at home. Now, I should like to bring under the Minister's notice a practice that, apparently, has grown up and that, I think, ought not to be continued, namely, discouraging people who are in offices in other countries from seeking a transfer to the home country. I suppose that most Irish citizens have an affection for their own country and probably would be prepared to take even lower wages than they can get abroad if they had a chance of getting home. As an illustration of what I mean I should like to bring under the Minister's notice that in September last there was a confined competitive examination.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's contention is irrelevant. We have no shorthand-typist in Lisbon yet, hence he cannot advocate the hypothetical transfer of a typist from Lisbon to this country, nor go further afield, and advocate transfers from other countries. The question of staff conditions comes under the Department of Finance. The Deputy may not survey the diplomatic service from the U.S.A. to New Zealand on a Vote of £10 for Lisbon.

Mr. Dockrell

Well, Sir, there is an allowance of £60 here in the Vote for a temporary clerk shorthand-typist. I want to ask what conditions are governing that post, and I should like to suggest that the conditions governing other posts ought not to apply. I am giving an illustration of what happened in one instance, and what I want to get from the Minister is an assurance that, at any rate, it will not happen in Portugal. Now, in September——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy would hardly contend that it is in order to ventilate now a specific case relating to something that happened in another sphere. Obviously, the Minister would need to have the facts placed before him, on due notice. It would be difficult for the Minister to give an answer with regard to the appointment of a clerk or typist on some previous occasion.

Mr. Dockrell

I merely wish to inquire about the terms on which people abroad can apply for transfers to the home country and, with great respect, I should like to have your permission to continue. Of course, Sir, if you request me to be seated I shall bow to your ruling.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has not asked the Deputy to be seated, but he may not pursue his present line of argument.

Mr. Dillon

Surely, if there is an allowance here of £60 for the appointment of a shorthand-typist, the Deputy is entitled to ask for information about that? There is not only the question of the Minister here but of the typists and so on, and surely we are entitled to discuss where and how these people are appointed?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is entitled to ask what are the terms of the appointment, but he is not entitled to discuss transfers or the conditions under which transfers may be effected in our consular offices all over the globe.

Mr. Dockrell

I can absolutely agree with the statement you have made, Sir, but what I am asking is that certain most objectionable circumstances that occurred in connection with other appointments will not necessarily occur in Lisbon. I may say that I did not suppose that the mentioning of the incident would have taken as long as I have taken up to this, but, naturally, I am going to bow to your ruling, Sir. May I proceed?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may, as long as, in the opinion of the Chair, he is in order.

Mr. Dockrell

Very well. I had mentioned that there was a confined competitive examination in September. Some people in another country—not typists, I may say—thought that they might compete for that examination. They were then asked to say what were their qualifications in Irish. They replied that they would be quite happy to furnish their qualifications in Irish if other competitors were asked similar questions. They were then told that that would not be pressed, and that item was withdrawn. Now, I leave it to the Minister's own imagination whether the fact of putting that forward and then withdrawing it does not look like a rod which was kept in pickle for one person and not for another. The next item that I wish to bring up in connection with this is that the next request these people had was for a record of their late attendances. I do not like to mention the place, but it was a city where very extensive bombing has taken place over the last two years.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy relate that to the appointment of a typist in Lisbon?

Mr. Dockrell

Yes, Sir. I do not wish a typist in Lisbon who may wish to come home, to be asked similar questions. Now, I should like to suggest that the matter of the late attendance of a person is not one which should be brought to their notice only when they apply for a transfer, and I understand that over that period of two years there was no notice taken of late arrivals due to circumstances beyond their control.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister for External Affairs has no control in that connection. The Minister for Finance, as head of the Civil Service, is responsible for the conditions prescribed, if the persons concerned are civil servants, as I presume they are.

Mr. Dockrell

But surely the conditions governing the transfer from one office under the Minister's control to the home service are under his control?

An Ceann Comhairle

Those conditions of entrance and service, so far as civil servants are concerned, are under the control of the Minister for Finance.

Mr. Dockrell

I understood that the staff of a Minister's Department as under his own control.

An Ceann Comhairle

Of the representatives, yes, but not of recruitment of the staffs.

Mr. Dockrell

Under his control?

An Ceann Comhairle

Civil servants are not under the control of the Minister for External Affairs.

Mr. Norton

Surely, the Minister for External Affairs has complete control over all the staff borne by his own Department, and surely it is not for that Minister to seek the authority of the Minister for Finance to transfer a person from one legation to another?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Dockrell has already brought up two cases, and is apparently attempting a review of staffs' conditions in any embassy or consulate anywhere, on one hypothetical appointment in Lisbon. The conditions of service would not be prescribed by the Minister for External Affairs, but by the Minister for Finance. One might as well suggest that in any Department the Minister concerned has complete control in the appointment or recruitment of his own staff. In accordance with Civil Service regulations, the staffs come under the Minister for Finance.

Mr. Norton

I am not concerned with the point raised by Deputy Dockrell. Surely it is the position that a civil servant already in a particular department, is subject to the control of the Minister of that department? I understand that that is the point Deputy Dockrell is making now, and I understand also, from experience, that it is the practice.

Mr. Dockrell

There is another point I should like to mention.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy referred to the services, and I am referring to control. The head of the Civil Service is the Minister for Finance.

Mr. Dockrell

Well, I understand that persons in the Minister's Department would have to get his permission before they sat for an examination, and in fact I am not at all sure whether, in due course, official notification went forward to the Department of External Affairs for permission to sit for the examination.

An Ceann Comhairle

But that still does not relate to the conditions to which the Deputy is referring, which would be prescribed by Finance. The person in question might have to get the permission of his Minister to compete at the examination.

Mr. Dockrell

The permission had to be got, but prior to that permission the Minister's Department asked for a record of their attendances. With great respect, if I bring that up before the Minister for Finance he will tell me that of course he has to settle the regulations governing the appointments, salaries, etc., but that the permission to be given and the circumstances attending that person's conduct in the office of the Minister for External Affairs are matters for the Minister for External Affairs.

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter agitating the Chair is this: The Committee is discussing the possibility of appointing a staff in Lisbon. Apparently the Deputy has got some cases of civil servants in the Department of External Affairs and is dissatisfied with the conditions. He wants to avail himself of this opportunity to raise those matters without giving previous notice to a Minister.

Mr. Dockrell

With great respect, there is only one instance, and it is governing the conditions of one examination for which a number of people wished to sit. I have raised the point that before they could leave that office they had to get permission, and I should like to suggest that most unworthy hurdles were put in front of them before they were allowed to sit for the examination. What I am suggesting is that that should not occur in Lisbon, and I also suggest to the Minister, if he can see his way, that he should investigate a flagrant injustice such as that, and that he might very well say: "Well, it will cease in other places as well as Lisbon."

An Ceann Comhairle

That bears out the Chair's contention—that the Deputy wanted to review extraneous matters.

Mr. Dockrell

I do not wish to review the whole Department, but I am suggesting to the Minister that he might very well look into the case, and if he is anxious to remedy the injustice I can give him the details.

Minister for External Affairs (The Taoiseach)

Deputy Dillon asked me for the name of our representative. The name, as a matter of fact, has been published, but I do not think it is desirable to bring it up here, as the person who is to be appointed is a civil servant.

Mr. Dillon

I merely asked as a matter of information.

The Taoiseach

The usual procedure is not to give the names in cases of civil servants. We do not give them in the House. As far as I know, it has not been done before, and the objection I see to doing it at the moment is that you might have a discussion purely and simply about a civil servant, as to whether such a person——

Mr. Dillon

You are going to send a Minister?

The Taoiseach

We are going to send a Chargé d'Affaires.

Mr. Dillon

You are not appointing any Minister?

The Taoiseach

Not yet.

Mr. Dillon

What I asked was, if you are going to send a Minister, who is the Minister?

The Taoiseach

No; it is a Chargé d'Affaires. I do not know that we have anybody——

Mr. Dillon

Might I interrupt the Taoiseach? There has been a misunderstanding. I was not asking the Taoiseach for the name of the Chargé d'Affaires; I appreciate at once that he is a civil servant. I was asking, if we were appointing a Minister to Lisbon, who he was.

The Taoiseach

If it had been a Minister, I would have had the same objection. The next question I was asked was with regard to the Consular Service. In that regard we have not a Consul in Portugal, but the Chargé d'Affaires will perform certain consular functions. I have been asked by Deputy Norton about some of the people who had been stranded in Portugal, and what steps have been taken with regard to them. I think about 20 or 25 who were in Lisbon have been brought home, and, as far as we know, about 20 remain. Certain help has been given to them. For that, we have to thank the British, whose good offices were availed of there. Of course, we ultimately ourselves pay the expenses.

Mr. Norton

Could the Taoiseach say whether there are any passengers travelling on those ships which are taking our goods from Lisbon to Dublin?

The Taoiseach

I cannot say that straight off. All I know is that from 20 to 25 have been brought home, partly by ships and partly by air.

Mr. Norton

Would the Minister examine the possibility of taking passengers on some of those ships, with a view to rescuing our people who are marooned in Lisbon?

The Taoiseach

That is such an obvious thing to have tried that I feel pretty certain it has been examined, but there may be some difficulties. The present situation may be such that there would have to be particular care with regard to taking passengers in some of the ships. If it has not been examined—I feel certain it has been— I will have the matter looked into. I was asked a question as to the amount of our trade with Portugal. I have been informed—I do not like giving this without those who supplied the figures having an opportunity of examining it more fully—that about £100,000 a year is the amount of our normal imports from Portugal, and I do not think they take very much from us in return.

With regard to the point which Deputy Dockrell has been raising, I do not know the case to which he is referring, but, if he will be good enough to give me particulars, I will have the matter examined to see exactly what is at the bottom of it. I think that would be the simplest way of dealing with it. Other questions were raised, and if there is any desire for definite information with regard to particular cases—it is obvious that I could not give it here without notice; I would have to have them examined—I will try to give the information that is required to the fullest extent possible. I do not think there is anything further that I want to deal with. I just want to remark with regard to Deputy Dillon that I do not at all accept his statements about Dr. Salazar.

Mr. Dillon

He must have the last word.

Vote put and agreed to.