Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Dec 1941

Vol. 85 No. 8

Private Deputies' Business. - Tea, Cocoa and Coffee Supplies —Motion.

Mr. Byrne

I move:—

That a Select Committee consisting of seven Deputies, to be nominated by the Committee of Selection and with power to send for persons, papers and records, be appointed to investigate and report to the Dáil on the reasons for the scarcity of tea, cocoa, and coffee and of suitable substitutes for these commodities and to make recommendations.

That the quorum of the Committee be four.

It is many months since this motion was put down by Deputy Hannigan and myself. Since then, there has been some improvement in the tea situation, but there has not been the improvement that most of us would like to see. We know the severe hardships that our people were called upon to bear when the tea ration was reduced very suddenly from 2 ozs. to ½ oz. Quite recently there has been an improvement in the situation. We do not know how long the present ration of 1 oz. will be continued. If I thought there was any possibility of the present ration being increased, I would gladly make a demand to have it increased. The motion will give the Minister an opportunity of telling the House what the position is likely to be for the future. In the newspapers recently we were told by some of the leading tea merchants in the city that they hoped to see an improvement in the supply of tea available during the coming year. It was stated that tea is coming from India, and that some space was being reserved on American ships for cargoes for this country. I hope that tea will be included in the supplies coming here. There was a cry all over the city, especially in the working-class quarters, where people have to depend on a tea meal three times a day, when the supply of this commodity was suddenly cut down. I earnestly hope the Minister will take steps to see that nothing of that kind will occur again. We are all anxious to hear what the Minister has to say as to the prospects for the future in regard to tea and other supplies.

I formally second the motion. I suggest to the Minister that there is need for some inquiry into the distribution of tea. I have in mind one trading concern. Its tea supply is based on what it purchased in 1938. In 1938, 1939 and 1940 a number of people went to trade with this concern. There were no new people taken on in 1941. The position is that the people who were trading with that concern in 1939 and 1940 are now being told—the notices were sent out on Friday last— that they will have to go back to the firm they were dealing with in 1938. That is the position in regard to that trading concern, notwithstanding the fact that the wholesalers are agreeable to give the supply of tea required by it if they can get permission from the Department of Supplies.

That is a matter for administration, which is outside the terms of the motion.

It is one of the reasons that I had in seconding the motion— to ask that there should be an inquiry with regard to the scarcity of tea.

The Deputy is in order in discussing the scarcity of tea, coffee and cocoa.

In certain places there is said to be a scarcity, but I am inclined to look upon it as an artificial scarcity. Undoubtedly, new circumstances have arisen since the order was brought in, and for that reason I would ask the Minister to give consideration to the points I have raised.

I think the demand outlined in the motion is a reasonable one. It is one, I think, that should be met by the Government in a reasonable way. I think no one will dispute the fact that there is a scarcity of the commodities set out in the motion. We have the position that a number of retailers who have been in business for a long time are to-day not able to get the necessary supplies to meet the demands of customers who have been dealing with them for a long number of years. Is it not obvious, therefore, that there is a scarcity somewhere? Is the scarcity due to the fact that tea cannot be found to meet the demands of retailers, or is it due to the fact that there have been some mistakes or bungling in the administration concerned with the distribution of tea? I am personally aware of a retailer who is only able to obtain a supply sufficient to provide for the needs of two-thirds of his customers. He has to send the rest away. Surely the distribution of tea ought to be arranged in such a way that retailers will get adequate supplies to provide the ration of one ounce for all their customers.

The Deputy is now discussing the distribution of tea.

We know of instances where one ounce of tea is adequate, but I think everyone would agree that, while that may be so in the case of ordinary consumers, it is hopelessly inadequate so far as outdoor manual workers are concerned. If some means can be found to overcome the scarcity, then I think the first duty of the Minister should be to make provision for outdoor manual workers.

The Deputy has reverted to the distribution of tea.

I would ask the Chair to consider whether the Deputy might not be allowed to proceed on the line that he has been pursuing, because I think the terms of the motion could be stretched to cover it. The debate may help to ventilate these matters.

The Deputy may proceed.

We are told that purchases of tea have been made. We do not know how true that is, or how soon they may be brought to this country, but if additional supplies of tea are available, I think special consideration should be given to agricultural workers and to people who have to work at considerable distances from their homes, such as men working on the roads or cutting and saving turf. They are engaged on very strenuous work, and are in need of something in the nature of a stimulant. In that respect, no suitable substitute can be found for tea.

A number of employers employ casual labour. Some farmers employ a large number of men in the harvest or at the potato picking. For seasonal work of that character, the present system of rationing is no use. The number of people who have to be catered for on a special occasion, such as during harvesting operations, is far in excess of the normal number. Here, again, there is a case for a special allowance. If a committee of this House were appointed to inquire into this question, they would find that there is a very serious scarcity of these essential commodities and that, amongst the poorer sections of the community particularly, a great deal of hardship is occasioned by this scarcity.

The Minister stated that he had no objection to widening the scope of this debate to deal with the scarcity of tea amongst particular classes of workers. If the House agrees to that course, the Chair would raise no objection.

I assume that the Minister is going to oppose the motion in its present form because he has opposed other motions, particularly a motion worded in similar language, dealing with the shortage and distribution of petrol. The Minister should welcome the introduction of a motion of this kind if for no other reason than that it affords him an opportunity of making a statement regarding the supplies of tea, cocoa and coffee available for consumption. I seriously suggest that there is a scarcity of tea, due to the fact that certain wealthy people, at a particular period, took the advice—I do not blame them—given by the Minister to buy in all the tea, cocoa and coffee which the money in their possession would enable them to buy. The people with money, at that period, went out to every merchant in the city and throughout the country and bought up all the tea which wholesalers and retailers were willing to sell them.

There was nothing wrong in that.

At the time, there was nothing wrong in it, but the fact that these people hold large quantities of tea, and, perhaps, cocoa and coffee, has created the scarcity that exists at present and is responsible, to a certain extent, for the very small ration of tea allowed the community. I ask Deputy Walsh if it is right that any person in his constituency, simply because he had plenty of money at the time the Minister gave this advice, should have a chest or two chests of tea while poor people in the same locality cannot get any more than the miserable ration allowed by the Minister. The ration is fixed at the present low figure simply because the wholesalers have not sufficient tea at their disposal, but if the Minister would exercise the powers which, I believe, he has, under the Emergency Powers Order, to search the houses of wealthy people who have tea and, perhaps, coffee and cocoa hoarded, he would find that there would be a sufficient supply of tea and, perhaps, coffee and cocoa to increase the existing ration. The scarcity exists, to some extent, because there is a certain amount of hoarding.

I am not blaming the Minister for giving the advice he did at that time, but I am sure he knows that, because of that advice, certain wealthy people have more tea in their possession than the other citizens of the State. To what extent has the Minister, in recent times, exercised his power to make a search of private or business houses so as to recover tea held in excess of the quantity which should be held? If he could get back into his own control the large quantity of tea hoarded by a number of wealthy citizens, there would not be the scarcity of which Deputy Byrne complains in his motion. I do not know whether that matter was given very much consideration by Deputy Byrne when putting down his motion, but I am sure he will agree that, to some extent, what I am saying is correct. Whatever about cocoa and coffee, I believe that a surplus of tea is held by a certain limited number of privileged citizens and that the Minister should, if he believes that, exercise his powers of search so as to increase the present ration.

Mr. Brodrick

There is, undoubtedly, a scarcity of tea, and I wonder if any substitutes are possible. Tea and cocoa are the principal food-drinks in rural Ireland. I do not know whether tea is being held up or not, but there is, undoubtedly, a scarcity of it. During the coming year I should like the Minister to consider the case of those workers in rural Ireland who have not been registered in their homes. Take the West of Ireland. A good many men in the West are not registered in their homes. They work a week for a farmer here and a week for a farmer in some other place. Workers in the north-west and south would be in a similar position. These people have to get an allowance of tea from the farmers for whom they are working and the farmer's family is deprived of its due allowance so as to supply the workers. Last year an attempt was made to remedy the position but it was rather late. Take the case of men working in bogs. I know areas where up to 300 men have been working in bogs. The man working in a bog does not take his usual meals. He may work six miles from his home. He depends on tea for his midday meal and he has another meal of the same kind in the evening after he leaves off work. He works from daylight to dark and does not go home for his regular meals. If he were to go home, he would not use the same amount of tea because the meals would be of a different kind. Young members of a farmer's family are deprived of their due amount of tea because practically three times as much tea is used by farmers' sons engaged in this way than would be used if they were working on their father's farms. The Department held this year that any man who could get home at night was not entitled to the increased supply. Now they are only registered in the ordinary way. I would like the Minister to give some attention to that matter, seeing that the Parliamentary Secretary informed us a few weeks ago that he would have men working in the bogs in February. If that is so, there will be much more tea required for those men in February than there would be required in June. These men have to cycle six or seven miles to work in these areas and should receive special consideration.

Another class of worker is the road worker, who very seldom gets home to dinner, and has to depend on a bottle of tea for his dinner. Either he or his family are deprived of tea and they are very poor. Young families deprived of that have no substitute. The ordinary road worker has no substitute whatsoever, as he does not usually have a cow. I cannot see why these youngsters should be deprived of the small allowance of tea they require. The Minister may answer that milk is a good substitute. It is, in the months of June or July, but in February or March it is not a substitute, when a person wants something warm.

There are many workers throughout the country working under different Departments. Take the Forestry Department: I have seen men working on very big schemes cutting fuel to heat the poor of Dublin. They work an eight-hour day, and in those woods that is not a very nice job. If the Minister went down there and went through them he would see what they are like. Then there are drainage schemes in connection with bogs, where men are up to their hips at the present time carrying out drainage work. I know they are provided with long boots for the purpose, but they have to work an eight-hour day and have to live on a substitute for tea or, if they get the tea, the family is deprived of it. The Minister should look into that.

I do not know whether there has been great storing of tea. I know the Minister and the Government advised everyone to put in supplies. I know people who put in supplies of flour and are sorry now, as a lot of it went bad. I do not believe tea would go bad, but doubt if there are the stores Deputy Davin says there are throughout the country. I probably know a few myself, but do not suppose it is done to a great extent. I would like the Minister to look after the case of people in the cities who have to live on a small amount, and that of workers on different schemes throughout the country.

The only scarcity we have noticed throughout the country is not due to the fundamental reason of tea being scarce, owing to the war and its not being produced in such quantity, but rather is it due to the method of distribution of supplies in country areas. If the Minister distributed the tea in the same way as paraffin oil—on the basis of the number of registered customers with the shop-keeper—it would do away with practically all the complaints there are at present. There is one element that does not appear to have been realised by the Minister's Department in connection with the distribution of tea. It is that, prior to the scarcity, you had all over the West—and I am sure this applies all over the country—people who were supplied by travelling shops.

Since the emergency, these travelling shops have faded out, owing to lack of petrol and tyres and the difficulty of keeping mechanically propelled vehicles on the road. As a result, the customers of these travelling shops have been compelled to go back to the local shopkeeper and hand their tea coupons to him. No shopkeeper wants to take them at present, as he is limited in his tea purchases to a certain quota—portion of the amount he obtained in 1939. I think it would eliminate a lot of the dissatisfaction, where there is that dissatisfaction about the distribution of tea and resultant scarcity in those areas, if the Minister based his quota to those people on their actual registered customers.

There has been a definite change in the number of customers being supplied owing to the curtailment of the activities of the travelling shop. If he does not do that, there undoubtedly will be hardships, as there are in some remote districts where this matter principally arises. If the Minister examined the matter, it would cut out many of these complaints. From what I know it is only in a few isolated areas that there have been complaints about the scarcity of tea and, in my opinion, it is not so much a scarcity as inequitable distribution by the Minister's Department.

Nobody blames the Minister for the scarcity of tea— although I did perhaps blame him at one time. As far as there is a scarcity, we are all prepared to tighten our belts and take our share of what there is. I believe Deputy Moran touched the spot, as far as the complaints of the people generally are concerned. It is not that the people expect the Minister to do the impossible. Rather, as Deputy Moran said, it is that we all feel entitled—rich and poor—to a fair crack of the whip and to get our share of what is there.

The complaint raised by Deputy Moran exists everywhere. In the particular town with which I am concerned, I have been extremely bothered day and night with regard to the tea supply. It is not perhaps a question of scarcity, but distribution means, for a person who cannot get tea, a scarcity, whatever quantity is there, if that person gets none. There are people in my vicinity who cannot get any tea. If some system were adopted, as suggested by Deputy Moran, of allocating supplies on the basis of customers rather than on the amount they got last year or the year before, there would be some chance of the poor person getting some tea.

Perhaps if I were another Deputy, or if I were the Minister in opposition, I might be inclined to take political advantage of a certain case of which I will give some details, but I do not want to. I was in a village shop quite recently. In this shop every week for some time past there have been difficulties with regard to the distribution of tea. Perhaps the shopkeeper took too many cards, but then somebody had to take them. Anyhow, this person had more cards than could be supplied. Communications were addressed to the Department and eventually the shopkeeper was asked, if there were more cards than could be supplied, to pass on some of the cards to another shop in the same place and that shop would be in a position to supply the people who required tea. If I were so inclined, I could take political advantage out of a case like that. I could argue why should one shop get certain facilities over another and I could point out that it might mean the taking by one shop of another shop's customers. In my opinion, that would be a rather improper argument.

Anyway, what really happened in that village was that the shop the people were asked to go to would not supply them at all; that shop either did not want to supply the people or it could not supply them—probably it could not. I get my ounce of tea and I am sure every other Deputy gets his or her ounce, but some unfortunate people in the country do not get an ounce each. I will support the case that has been made by Deputy Moran and I will ask the Minister to see if in future he could arrange that the tea will be allocated to retailers in proportion to the number of cards in their possession. People who want to buy tea should be facilitated. The whole matter would be simplified in that manner. As it is, difficulties exist everywhere and I have no doubt every Deputy has had the experience of Deputy Moran and myself of the trouble that arises because of the manner in which the supplies of tea are distributed.

My object in intervening in this debate is for the purpose of presenting a case on behalf of a certain section of the community in relation to supplies of tea and, if the Minister can make any adjustment at all, I think he should make some adjustment in their favour. I refer to old and single people. These people are at a great disadvantage in this matter as compared to large families. If you divide an ounce into seven parts you will find it almost impossible to make any practical use of it, but in the case of a family of four or five, or perhaps eight or nine, the weekly tea ration can be used to some advantage. Take the case of a poor person who, until this war broke out and tea rationing became essential, was in the habit of using tea for practically every meal. Just imagine dividing an ounce of tea into 14 parts so as to provide for two meals each day! We must realise how impossible that would be and I suggest to the Minister that if there is any hope of an additional ration or some adjustment being made, he should pay particular attention to the case of those single individuals and old people.

The motion, which has been moved by Deputy Byrne, asks the Dáil to set up a committee to investigate and report on the reasons for the scarcity of tea, cocoa and coffee. I do not think any Deputy has spoken about the motion, nor do I think a case could be made for setting up a committee to find out the reason for the scarcity of tea, cocoa and coffee. The reason for the general scarcity of these commodities is well known, and nothing that a committee could do could possibly add to our knowledge of it.

It may, however, be no harm to refresh the minds of Deputies on the history of our tea supplies during the war. I think most Deputies are aware that before the war the bulk of our tea came from the United Kingdom. It was bought in the London tea market through English tea brokers. Some part of our supplies came from Holland, a similar tea market in Holland, and some came direct from India and other countries of origin; but by far the greater part of our supplies came from London. When the war started, the British Government took control of all the tea in Great Britain. That situation inevitably led to discussions between ourselves and the Tea Control Section of the British Ministry of Food. They had then under their control the tea supplies which had been destined for this country.

Arising out of these discussions, an arrangement was made under which they, on their side, agreed to give us our normal annual imports of tea, based upon the actual recorded imports during a period of 12 months prior to June, 1939, and to make up that proportion of our normal annual imports which formerly was obtained from Holland or direct from India, on the understanding that we would take all our supplies from them and not attempt to compete in other markets for supplies or to make arrangements for shipments of supplies from other markets. We made that arrangement, and it worked very smoothly for a considerable period of time.

In June, 1940, the British Government decided to introduce tea rationing in Great Britain, but when they did they officially informed us that the introduction of rationing in Great Britain would not involve any alteration of our position, and that we would continue to receive periodic allocations of tea equivalent to 100 per cent. of our normal purchases. Towards the end of 1940, when air attacks upon Great Britain became more numerous, their transport and distribution arrangements were from time to time disorganised, and before the end of the year the allocation of tea to this country had fallen into arrear. We were due certain allocations which had not, in fact, arrived. There was no change in the English position, and, in fact, discussions were proceeding between officers of my Department and officials of the Tea Control Section in Great Britain concerning the wiping out of the arrears of allocations by the exportation of special consignments to this country. We were anxious, naturally, to maintain, if possible, a reserve supply in this country, and we felt that these allocations in arrear, if made good, would provide that reserve.

That situation continued until 16th January, 1941. We were then informed, without any preliminary notice, and with no reason to expect the intimation, that the current allocation of tea was going to be reduced to the same level as that obtaining in the United Kingdom; that is to say, to about 85 per cent. of the normal quantity. That intimation took us by surprise and certainly found us unprepared for the immediate introduction of the rationing scheme which then became necessary. We felt sure that any necessity to reduce the allocation of tea to this country by the British Tea Control would be preceded by an intimation sufficiently in advance of the actual reduction of supplies to enable us to prepare for the introduction of a rationing scheme. As I have said, however, we got no such intimation except the unexpected notification that the current allocation was being reduced to 85 per cent. We immediately took steps to control the distribution of tea by wholesalers to retailers, and for the introduction of a rationing scheme. We had numerous discussions during that period with the British Tea Control, but they did not result in any increase in the allocation then being made on the basis of 85 per cent. On the contrary, and without previous intimation again, we received notifications in rapid succession that current allocations were being reduced from 85 per cent. to 60 per cent., from 60 per cent. to 50 per cent., and, finally, from 50 per cent. to 25 per cent. In fact, before our rationing scheme came into full formal operation, the allocations of tea to this country were being made, not upon the basis of 85 per cent., but upon the basis of 25 per cent.

When it became evident that the British Ministry of Food were not prepared to increase the supplies of tea to this country, we gave consideration to the question of endeavouring to augment our supplies by direct purchases either in the countries of origin or in the United States of America. It was obvious that the principal difficulty in the making of direct purchases was that of arranging for shipment, but on the establishment of Irish Shipping, Ltd., it appeared likely that that difficulty, to some extent, would be relieved, and steps were then taken to set up an importing organisation for tea. A company on the usual lines, called Tea Importers (Éire), Ltd., was set up as a non-profit-making company to arrange for direct imports of tea, and the consent of prominent members of the Wholesale Tea Merchants' Association to act as directors of that company was secured. That company set out to buy tea in the United States of America and in Calcutta. They bought a quantity of tea in the U.S.A., and a very much larger quantity in India, but considerable difficulty was experienced in arranging shipment from India.

We found, in fact, that direct shipment from India was out of the question. Consequently, plans had to be revised for the movement of that tea and arrangements were made for its shipment the other way around the world, that is to say, from India, through the Panama Canal, to the eastern coast of the U.S.A., with the intention of picking it up from the American ports in our own ships and bringing it across the Atlantic here. That movement is going on at the moment, and there are some 2,000,000 lbs. of tea at present on the sea somewhere between India and the United States and there is a considerably larger quantity awaiting shipment.

Whether the arrangements will work out as planned, and the tea will arrive in this country, it is yet too soon to say. It is, in present circumstances, very unwise to assume that everything will work out as anticipated, but there is at least reason to hope that some part of that tea, which has been purchased through Tea Importers, Ltd., will arrive here. A quantity of tea purchased in the U.S.A. has arrived and forms part of our present supplies.

Because of these purchases made in the U.S.A. and in India, and because of the fact that we can proceed upon the assumption that some of that tea will arrive here, and also having regard to the stocks of tea which had been accumulated through administrative action in the hands of wholesale merchants, it was decided in mid-October to increase the ration from half an ounce per head per week to one ounce. In the month of October we received intimation from the British Tea Control that the current allocation would be on the basis of 37½ per cent., instead of on the basis of 25 per cent. It was that intimation that turned the decision in favour of increasing the ration to one ounce per week, but, as Deputies now know, the next allocation was again made upon the 25 per cent. basis. I cannot say for certain whether we will be able to keep the one-ounce ration going indefinitely. I can say certainly that we will be able to keep it till the end of the present month, as stocks for that purpose are available, but whether it will be possible to carry it on during January depends upon the arrival of certain supplies that are on the seas at the present time. If these supplies do not arrive, we cannot do it; if they do arrive, we may be able to do it. In any event, however, I should hope that even if we have to revert to the half-ounce ration for the month of January we will be able to restore the ounce ration in February.

All these plans, of course, are based on the assumption that no catastrophe will befall the stocks en route. It is not desirable, I think, that we should allow the wholesale stocks in the country to fall unduly low, because, of course, circumstances might arise at any time which would involve a total cutting off of all supplies for a period, and therefore we have got to keep some small reserves available, but we hope that it will be possible to do that, and, at the same time, maintain the one-ounce ration. However, if it should turn out that we are not able to do that and if these supplies, now at sea, should not arrive, and if, consequently, we have to revert to the half-ounce ration for the month of January, I would ask the public not to be too disappointed because I should hope to be able to increase the ration to one ounce in the month of February.

Is the Minister fairly sure about that? I do not mean January, but is he fairly sure about February?

I am fairly sure that some of the supplies now en route will arrive before February. They may not. Nobody can be certain in these days that any supplies will arrive, but all our eggs are not in the one basket and I think it is unlikely that all the baskets will suffer damage simultaneously. Now, that is the position concerning our supplies. I have given, briefly, the history of our supplies position since the outbreak of the war, and our present position, but I should like to deal with some of the matters that were raised concerning the distribution of tea. I know that there are Deputies, and many members of the public, who do not fully understand why we have to be so strict in insisting that householders should register with the traders from whom they normally bought tea. In theory, it should be possible to allow a customer to go to any trader he liked, and to adjust the supply of tea to traders to correspond to the number of customers registered with them. In practice, that is not possible. I have told you that all the tea we have got this year and are now getting is coming to us from the British Ministry of Food. That tea does not come to us in bulk. It is allocated by the British Ministry of Food to all the wholesale merchants who formerly did business in this country. Our position in respect of tea is entirely different to our position, say, in respect of petrol. All the petrol comes in here in one tanker, and it can then be allocated to the various users of petrol in accordance with their needs or some pre-determined plan of distribution.

The same is also true in the case of sugar. All the sugar is available at the point of distribution, and can be distributed on any basis. For various administrative reasons we have linked up the distribution of sugar with the distribution of tea. That is another question. In the case of tea, however, for the reason I have stated, it is not under our control at any stage except in the final process of distribution. It is allocated by the British Ministry of Food to those primary wholesalers, many of whom are located in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and are not subject to our control at all. Consequently, we must have a system of distribution which conforms to that method of allocation.

Those primary wholesalers supply tea, on the basis of 25 per cent. of their datum year purchases, to the traders whom they normally supplied. We cannot take that tea from one wholesaler and give it to another in order to increase the supplies of one trader or reduce the supplies of another. If we attempted to do that we would just lose the tea. We have got to allocate it in the manner which I have indicated, from those primary wholesalers to the traders who are registered with those wholesalers, and, consequently, any system of distribution must involve adjusting the number of customers to the supply of tea instead of adjusting the supply of tea to the number of customers. We can alter the number of customers registered with the trader, but we cannot alter the quantity of tea he is getting. That is the general principle. There may be some words of explanation required in connection with the application of it, but I want Deputies to understand that no matter what system of control we put into operation, whether the existing system of registration by households with traders or a new system of individual ration cards or the issue of coupons, it must involve no alteration in the quantity of tea which a trader is entitled to receive, because we cannot change that. Even when the tea we purchased ourselves in India comes along we will have to continue distributing it through the same channels, because it is necessary to ensure that those primary wholesalers located in Great Britain are kept in the trade; otherwise they might cut their connections with this country and involve us in a loss of the quantity of tea allocated to them for us.

It is true that there are wholesalers in this country in a position to supply more tea to their customers. The commonest form of letter which comes to me from some traders is to the effect: "I want more tea to give their ration to my customers, and my wholesaler is willing to give it to me." I would not expect the wholesaler to say anything else. He is obviously going to pass the burden of saying "No" on to the Department of Supplies. He is not going to say "No" himself, but we have to control the distribution from the wholesaler to the retailer in order to ensure that certain stocks are held. It is not in the interests of the wholesaler to hold those stocks. He is willing to disperse his stocks. He has no responsibility for the supplies of the country as a whole. His responsibility as a businessman is to keep the goodwill of his customers. It is our job to see that he does not dissipate his stocks, that those stocks are held for distribution in accordance with the prescribed scheme of distribution and are available for whatever period of time we decide. That is why we cannot merely O.K. private arrangements made between wholesaler and retailer under which the wholesaler agrees to give the retailer larger supplies. We have to ensure that the supplies going to each retailer are limited to the percentage of the quantity that went to him in the datum year which is for the time being in force.

We decided on a flat rate ration. I think we already discussed in the Dáil whether the flat rate ration was the most equitable system. Deputy Brodrick says there are workers employed in laborious sort of work who should get special consideration, and a case could be made for that. According to the newspapers, there are various classes of workers in Great Britain employed in what they call the heavy industries who get increased rations of controlled foods of one kind or another, and I can contemplate a Deputy making a case for giving an increased ration of tea to those classes of workers. On the other hand, Deputy Gorry comes here to propose that we give an increased ration to the old people, to the people to whom tea is a greater luxury than to young, vigorous people in employment, who at any rate have the means to buy other foods. Some people will urge that special consideration should be given to the unemployed. Other people might equally forcibly urge that this special consideration be given to those who are at work. A very good case could be made for special consideration for special classes of people, but once you come down to dealing with special classes of people you will find there are so many of those classes that if you were to attempt to give a larger ration to any one of them —I suppose the minimum amount by which you could increase the individual ration would be, say, half an ounce per week—there would be nothing left for anybody else, and your position would inevitably be that you would be giving the whole of your available supplies to certain limited classes and leaving everyone else without tea. We decided against that. We decided that the fairest system of distribution of tea was to give a fixed equal amount to every member of the population.

We do give special allowances to certain limited classes of workers, such as workers on bogs, who have to work a very long way from their homes. That is the peculiarity of the bog worker's life, that he is working very many miles away from his home, and it is not possible for him to return for a meal in the middle of the day; he cannot return until some time after his work is concluded in the evening. They get a special allowance of tea where they are organised in certain minimum numbers, and there exists a person or a body which can take control of the tea and ensure that it is equitably distributed amongst the workers concerned. Certain classes of railway workers who have to be a long way from their homes at night on long journeys get an extra allowance of tea. The same applies to coal miners, because of the special arduous nature of their work, and to some classes of fishermen, but in each case we are dealing with a limited class whose work is such or who are so organised that there can be no possibility, or very little possibility, of abuse. When Deputy Brodrick urges that we should give a special allowance to itinerant farm workers and people of that kind, he is clearly bringing us into a field where organisation of any system of distribution of the extra allowance becomes impossible. It is not possible to conceive a system that will be free from abuse whereby you can give an extra allowance to itinerant farmers.

Mr. Brodrick

On a point of explanation, what I really meant was itinerant farmers' sons who go away from their homes, people who, as the Minister himself has said, go to work in the bogs or to do hard work on drainage. What I meant was that those people should, while they are doing that particular kind of work, receive some special consideration.

We obviously cannot do it for individuals. It is only when there are large numbers employed as on the county council turf schemes, the Clonsast Bog or through some of these special charitable orgnaisations which have gone into the turf production business, and where there are responsible people who will take the total allocation of tea for that particular job and look after its distribution, that we can do it. It is clearly impossible to devise any scheme where you are dealing with individuals. In the case of a farm worker who goes to work with another farmer for any period of time, he is entitled to change his registration from his old supplier to a new supplier in the district in which he is now living. The suggestion is often made that secreted in the cellars of private individuals around the country there is an amazing quantity of tea and that if we could get our hands on that there would be enough for everybody. I think that is nonsense.

Not an amazing one.

Deputy Davin says that it is a quantity sufficiently large to enable us to increase the ration. If he will admit that the minimum amount by which it is possible to increase the ration is one half ounce per week, has he any conception of the quantity of tea which that involves? A one half-ounce ration involves 1,000 chests of tea per week—that is, 1,000 full chests of 120 lbs. each. It requires that quantity to increase the ration by a half ounce per week. I do not know if there is any system of a household search that is likely to turn out 1,000 chests of tea per week and I am quite certain that no such quantity is held by private householders. We know from the figures that the total quantity of tea sold last year was no greater than the total quantity sold in the previous year. It is quite possible that people still have got some of the reserve stocks which were accumulated in some households last year, but I doubt if there is much of the reserve stocks left except in a few isolated individual cases. Even in these cases, if one went to search for them, there is no guarantee that one would find them. I am quite certain that the household search over the half million households in the country which Deputy Davin contemplates would require the services of the Army and the Guards for months and would not produce anything in the shape of a reserve stock of tea that would make it worth while.

There are difficulties of a special kind in some cases. The disappearance of the travelling shop has caused a problem in some districts. People who got tea from these travelling shops can no longer get tea from such suppliers. They have now to register with traders who have not got tea to supply them as they were not previously customers of these traders. All these cases are being dealt with and additional supplies are being arranged for these traders as quickly as inspectors can get round to them. While I do not want to say that all anomalies and difficulties have yet been smoothed out, a very large number of them have been smoothed out and special individual difficulties which arose in some districts or in the case of some traders or some individual consumers have been got rid of. We have all come against the case of the individual who is finding it difficult to get any trader to accept his registration.

There may have been a reason for that. Not everybody pays for his supplies as promptly as the trader would like, and when a trader has to pick and choose between those who want to register with him, he naturally picks those who are likely to pay rather than those who may be doubtful. These cases are obviously hard to deal with. We have power, and have used the power, given us in the order to require a trader to register a particular named customer. It is not a power that should be widely used, but it has been used in particular cases. By the use of these powers, or more generally by the use of persuasive methods, various difficulties that have arisen for individuals and traders have been got rid of. So much for tea.

The motion refers also to cocoa and coffee and to substitutes for these beverages. Perhaps the Dáil might be interested to know what the position is in regard to these commodities. In the days before the war our supplies of cocoa were made entirely by the home manufacturers. There were no imports of cocoa. For the purpose of manufacturing cocoa, the principal raw material was cocoa beans. About 2,400 tons of cocoa beans were normally imported annually into this country. Again, as in the case of tea, they were imported through British brokers. Early in this year the British Government prohibited the export of cocoa beans to this country and also refused to give facilities for the transhipment of cocoa beans at British ports. At the same time an embargo was placed on the export of manufactured cocoa. The result was that manufacturers in this country had to rely upon the stocks of cocoa beans which they then held, and as these stocks would only last for a very short period, the immediate result was a scarcity of cocoa, a scarcity which coincided with the introduction of rationing for tea and, consequently, occurred at a time when cocoa was in exceptional demand.

We had to provide for some form of control over the distribution of cocoa. We could not introduce a rationing scheme; there was not enough cocoa to give a ration to everybody as in the case of tea. We had to make an order limiting the amount which any household could procure to a quarter of a pound a week. There was not sufficient to give a quarter of a pound a week to every householder, and the whole purpose of the order was to ensure that nobody would get any more than a quarter of a pound a week.

At the same time, we recognised that there was not enough to provide each household with a ¼ lb. a week. As Deputies are aware, cocoa is made up in packets, and it is not possible to distribute it otherwise than in packets as a proportion of a lb. We then got in touch with the cocoa manufacturers with a view to arranging for the purchase of cocoa beans abroad for direct shipment to this country. The manufacturers made these arrangements and up to date they have brought 1,650 tons of cocoa beans into this country. These stocks were purchased by the manufacturers in the countries of origin and were shipped here by Irish Shipping, Ltd. These imports, with the stocks already in hand, meant more than a year's normal requirements, and consequently although the restriction on the amount that may be given to individual households is still being maintained, it has been found possible to remove the restriction which we had previously in operation on the output of manufacturers. The manufacturers are now allowed to produce more cocoa and, consequently, the position in respect to supplies to traders is becoming easier. In fact, deliveries by the manufacturers are now on the basis of 100 per cent. normal output. I want it to be understood, however, that the normal output is, nevertheless, small in relation to the number of households in the country, and it does not permit of any modification of the restriction of the quantity which each household can buy in a week.

In the case of coffee, our supplies of coffee, which normally amounted to about 300 tons per year, were also purchased from British brokers. Again, when in the early part of this year the export of coffee beans from Great Britain to this country was prohibited by the British Government, we decided that special facilities for the importation of coffee beans should be given, and coffee importers were encouraged to purchase coffee beans on the understanding that we would endeavour to arrange shipping facilities for them. In fact importers have purchased more than two years' normal requirements of beans, but we have not yet succeeded in bringing all that quantity of coffee beans into this country. It is, however, expected that some part of that supply will begin to arrive in the next few months. When it all comes in it will mean that there will be available more than two years' normal supply of coffee.

Reference has been made here to coffee substitutes. Most of the coffee substitutes on sale have been produced from barley. We have made allocations of barley to the manufacturers of substitutes up to the present. It may be necessary to place some restrictions upon the quantity of barley made available for that purpose in present circumstances. But, so long as there is a demand for those substitutes, we will endeavour, if possible, to facilitate further production. The demand has cased naturally enough since the increase in the tea ration. But I know that a number of those substitutes are quite palatable and have secured public favour, and, while we must ensure that the supplies of barley for more essential purposes, including the manufacture of beer, are made available, nevertheless we will endeavour to keep the production of those substitutes going.

Now, that is the fullest statement of the position of the supply and distribution of those beverages which can be made. I do not think that a committee such as is suggested in this motion can add to the information I have given to the House. No doubt they could investigate methods of distribution and deal with individual grievances. But I doubt very much if it is desirable that Committees of the Dáil should interfere in matters of that kind. I think, as a practice, it is much more desirable that the responsibility should be put on the individual Minister and that he should be made answerable to the Dáil for decisions. The administration of public affairs by Dáil Committees is not a desirable practice and, consequently, I have considered it desirable to oppose all motions of this kind that have come before the House, while at the same time indicating a willingness to give to the House the fullest possible information available on any occasion that it requires it.

I do not think that, in relation to those commodities, or any other commodities, there has been any reluctance to tell the House what the supply position is once distribution has been taken under control. The only time I have found it desirable not to make the fullest information available was when the control over distribution had not become fully operative, and it was felt that a statement to the public revealing the position might promote panic buying and disorganise distribution arrangements. When control has been established, and when distribution cannot be upset by any panic or uneasiness amongst the public, then it has been my policy and the policy of the Government at all times to give the fullest information desired by the House. I am prepared to undertake in relation to those commodities—tea, cocoa and coffee—that I will be only too glad to inform the House as to the position and as to changes in the position which may arise at any time.

Mr. Byrne

In view of the Minister's optimistic speech, I can only say that I hope his optimism will be justified; that the tea will arrive safely here, and that the allocation of tea to our people can be increased. I do not intend to divide the House on the motion, but I want the Minister to understand that there are still a number of people who cannot get their supplies of tea. In the early part of the discussion the question of distribution was ruled out, but the Ceann Comhairle afterwards said that he would allow it to be discussed. I have here a letter, dated 4th December, which says:—

"On the 30th August, my grocer, Mr. ——, returned my tea card to me as he could not get sufficient tea for all. He said that the Minister for Supplies could not let him have sufficient, as he was not in business in 1939. Until that time he had been giving me sugar with the tea. I went to another grocer and he took my tea card, but could not register me for sugar. I went back to my grocer and asked him to register me for sugar only, but he could not, although he had supplied me for six months up to and including that date, the 30th August."

That letter was handed to me by another Deputy. I have heard complaints of unequal distribution by wholesalers to retailers, who at times get into trouble with their customers if they are not able to give them their full ration of tea. The ounce of tea only goes half way, if it does go half way, to satisfy the requirements of the people. I have often thought, and others have thought the same in connection with our supplies of tea that, as we had a plentiful supply of other goods for export, such as beef, bacon, butter, eggs and beer, we had a right to demand some form of exchange from the British Government. In that way we might exchange bacon or beef for tea. If there were commodities of which the British had an extra supply and of which we were short, and if we had a plentiful supply of commodities of which they were short, we might have an exchange of those commodities instead of taking their paper money for what we supply to them. It is a matter that ought to be considered by the Government. As I have said, I do not intend to divide the House on the motion, but I earnestly trust that the Minister's hopes will be fully realised, that the tea which is now coming from foreign countries will arrive safely here and that our people will get an increased ration. We cannot hope for the full pre-war supply, but we do earnestly hope that an increase will be given, if possible, at a very early date.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
The Dáil adjourned at 8 p.m. until 3 p.m., Wednesday, 10th December.
Top
Share